In article ,
"Denis Marier" wrote:

I remember when working in engineering design for international companies.
One of the prerequisite for employment was that "If during the course of
your employment you created, designed, invent, facilitate, reduce
production cost or improve machinery's the drawings and procedures made by
you shall remind the property of the employers. The common weaver was that
the employer had the right to get your idea patented and only pay you $1.00
for your invention. Failing to sign this weaver a designer was not hired.

This is common and not unreasonable in most cases. The company is
generally providing the employee: a salary and benefits; continued
educational opportunities; a facility, funds and similarly educated
coworkers to study, research and develop ideas; the secondary or
tertiary resources and labor force required to bring the product to
reality; the legal team to hash out the risks and legalities of the
developed product; etc. If you are inventing on their dime and tools,
why would the individual employee own the product produced? What's the
point of hiring educated and innovative employees if the company is not
the recipient of their labor?

There are also instances in which the employee proved that the invention
was developed totally outside the realm of the employer, using no
company resources and thus retained sole ownership of the product.

Likewise a number of companies and products exist today in which the
employees bought the rights to the product or method they came up with
in order to strike out on their own.

If your idea is not patented or duly recognized by a legal body and accepted
by the law of the land your have a mammoth task to prove in a court of law
that you are the first one that created, invented or wrote the operational
philosophy and so on.

That is true as far as I know of the subject. Protecting your rights can
be expensive and time consuming. Just consider, though, the story of the
inventor of the intermittent windshield wiper system...

One interesting song is "I did it my way" who was the
real creator of that song?

I've no idea - though I can certainly hear Sinatra's warble in my head.

--
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long

In article ,
"M.J." wrote:

In the past I received an email from a complete
stranger accusing me of charging too little for some of my turnings and
thereby taking food from the mouths of his children. Obviously he wanted me
to raise my prices to his level so that he could compete "fairly" in the
same market. Interesting that he wants to set the price of my turnings.
Interesting.....maybe a little arrogance here? I don't give a damn what
other turners charge for their turnings. I set what I consider to be a fair
price for my turnings and if that undercuts other turners....... Well...
welcome to a free market world.

My question back to you is whether your prices fit into the ballpark of
other turners in your region producing items requiring similar skills
and time and for sale at similar venues? If you are low on the range,
then you might very well be undercutting others. If on the other hand
you are in the neighborhood then I'd respond that this annonymous
emailer has either unrealistic expectations or else he's not proficient
enough with his skills.

Since we've taken a tangent into pricing fairly, I wonder how many
turners have really examined their prices in realistic terms. If the
turner was forced to live off what he made selling his work, could he?
I'd bet a majority could not due to underpricing and, in my opinion,
that cheapens the value of woodturning in the buyer's mind thus making
the professional turner's struggle to live off his work extremely
difficult. Most turners don't recognize this because they are living off
income from other sources and haven't been forced to examine, in
realistic terms, the amount they are charging in relation to their
living requirements. A side arguement may also be that they, personally,
don't value the craft and/or have little respect for their own skills.

You mention above that $900.00 may not be reasonable but you KNOW that
$100 is not. You fail however, to set for the turning world, an EXACT price
that the turning should be in ALL areas of the globe.

Of course there is no exact price - but there is an acceptible range of
price depending on variables. Two of which are time and skills required.
I've hollowed a few pieces with smallish openings and have a rough idea
of the time and skills required. $100 translates to barely above minimum
wage - if that, if the completed piece is finely finished but that
doesn't even take into account materials, supplies, tools and equipment.
Are the time and skills on the level of Ellsworth (and his imitators)
only worth minimum wage? There are those who claim they are only selling
to augment their tool budget, they're also claiming, though silently,
that their skill and time is worthless.

I have just gone through a week of attempting to come up with a price on
work that will be submitted to a juried show. My final method was to
figure out how many similar pieces I could make in a 50 week year and
divide that into what I felt I wanted for a reasonable (average-ish)
income for my area. That gave me a base value to which I added materials
and supply costs. I considered the venue and a small bit of markup and
established a ballpark figure. Then I asked several other turners - one
who sells turnings regularly though works full time in other pursuits,
one who hasn't looked to sell his work but is in the corporate world and
is comfortable with sales and pricing product, and one who is attempting
to become a full-time turner - to view the work and give their
gut-feeling price range for the venue. Surprisingly, or not, they all
cited a range +/- 10% of what I had ballparked. I'm now pretty
comfortable with the price and I'm confident that if I could sell a
year's worth of production I could make a living off the work. I
challenge all turners reading this to apply your prices and income
requirements to the exercise.

--
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long

In article ,
Will wrote:

If you recall "The Wind Done gone"... A take-off of "Gone with the wind
"(GWTW). A lower court fond the satire to be a violation. An appellate
court found the satire allowable -- as I recall.

BUT!!!!! The new work was a new story. Not a simple rehash of the
original, or the old book with words crossed out and new words inserted etc.

I generally stick up for the primary creator in infringement issues but
The Wind Done Gone was a decision I didn't really understand. I didn't
see how the derivitive work harmed the original.

--
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long

In article ,
Roger wrote:

Design patents might well be relevant.
See http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/design/definition.html

Very interesting - thank you for the link. A design patent certainly
appears to apply to some of the turning work out there (not to pick on
Vesery any more than necessary) but Jacques Vesery's feather motif for
starters.

A thought. Perhaps this plagarism topic has merely been an annoyance to
professional turners because they know that to protect their designs is
a test of vigilance and likely not worthwhile given the relatively short
life of design "freshness" and thus diminishing financial returns over a
few years. Therefore to maximize income off the design they turn to the
demonstration circuit to which previous infringement lawsuits would be a
PR nightmare. Make a body of work with the design for the collectors,
museums and clientele and move on to the next idea, leaving the design
to the imitators.

--
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long

In article ,
Will wrote:

Will, I've not heard the term "moral rights" before reading your replies
in this discussion. Is this a Canadian term? I don't believe it's
something in the US copyright terms.

No. It is not "Just Canada". These are issues resolve in _International
Treaties_ - otherwise Microsoft could not sue people in other countries
for ripping off "MS Windows" for eg.

Get a copy of the international treaties relating to copyright, and
check an applicable American Law book if you really do need to know.

I looked up the term, "moral rights," and found little in the US Govt.
patent and copyright office information. One of only a few "hits" is:
"Intellectual Property and the National Information Infrastructure"
"The Report of the Working Group on Intellectual Property Rights"
http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/com/doc/ipnii/ipnii.txt

It appears it's readily used internationally but is relatively unused
within the United States' domestic terminology.

USA is a signatory to these International Treaties - not that they
always pay attention to treaties they have signed.

No! Really? Them thar's fightin' words.






--
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long

in the style of" or an attempt at producing work originated by Johnabob
Ellsonik, professional turner


If they dont mention that this is an imitation (when they know it is) then
they are ethically bankrupt.
But of the person who grew up on a diet of (I haven't been doing this long
enough to know the old famous turner's names, so please insert them) who has
turnings that have been created from all his experience in life. He owes a
little to each.
A new style is only developed out of boredom with the old. (Particularly
aesthetic things as they aren't usually born out of necessity) you do this
or that a bit different (or musically, add a trombone to a string quintet)
My main question is on the origin of creativity. If we start from a base
that was built around a Raffan book then could one say that anything we
create, we owe to Raffan?

Unfortunately there will always be dogs who will try to make money on
someone else's back.

I often think, thats nice, I'll try something like that. What i end up with
is never the same (not only out of lack of skill, but mainly and the fact
that I dont want to copy.)
I finished this beautifuil Black wattle bowl today.

What about saueracker shells?

"Owen Lowe" wrote in message
news
In article ,
SNIP of Prevailing Wage Apologetic
--
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long

And we'll have socialism when we start telling people what they may or may
not receive for their own work.

In article , "George" george@least
wrote:

"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long

And we'll have socialism when we start telling people what they may or may
not receive for their own work.

Just call me, Vlad.

I certainly hope I'm not coming across as dictating to people what they
can or can not charge. My point is that few have actually run through
the calculations or unabashedly value their abilities and so really
don't know how unfair they are being to themselves - as well as the
turning market as a whole.

--
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long

Owen Lowe wrote:
In article , "George" george@least
wrote:


"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long

And we'll have socialism when we start telling people what they may or may
not receive for their own work.

or fascism



Just call me, Vlad.

I certainly hope I'm not coming across as dictating to people what they
can or can not charge. My point is that few have actually run through
the calculations or unabashedly value their abilities and so really
don't know how unfair they are being to themselves - as well as the
turning market as a whole.

Da comrade!

Your points are good. Most people don't make those calculations.

From the calculations you (you -- in general) can draw a some
conclusions... After comparing your work to other people...

You work too slow... (They work too slow)
They charge too little (You charge too much)
You are not good enough (They are simply exceptional)
Your work is "fine (Their work is coarse...)
I sit between him and her in quality (They sit between me and the other guy)
etc.

From that research/comparison set you can set prices in general...

A lesson from marketing...
A new low price is a new high price. (For everyone.)
FWIW



--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

Owen Lowe wrote:

Are the time and skills on the level of Ellsworth (and his imitators)
only worth minimum wage?

Like anything else, they are worth what the market is willing to pay.

There are two parts to the equation that have to be expressed. First
of all, an "artist" that lives on their turning revenue must be able to
do so. They have to attempt to determine what hourly wage they "need"
to make to get by.

The other half is what the market will bear. I don't care how good
your wooden bowls are or how long you take to make them, the market
will only pay you so much for them.

The question that every turner making a living at it needs to
deternine, therefore, is: "Does the market value of the stuff I do
support my needed minimum wage?". Of course, you need to factor in
your own learning curve to this.

Here is an example. I made "Dick Sing-like" ornaments with a finial
and top from a different wood, adding my own finial and ball design.
The market where I sell would not support more than about $20 to $25
for these ornaments. Since I can't make them fast enough, I quit doing
them. I changed my ornament design and do something that I can make a
reasonable profit with.

Joe Fleming - San Diego

"Owen Lowe" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"M.J." wrote:

In the past I received an email from a complete
stranger accusing me of charging too little for some of my turnings and
thereby taking food from the mouths of his children. Obviously he wanted
me
to raise my prices to his level so that he could compete "fairly" in the
same market. Interesting that he wants to set the price of my turnings.
Interesting.....maybe a little arrogance here? I don't give a damn what
other turners charge for their turnings. I set what I consider to be a
fair
price for my turnings and if that undercuts other turners....... Well...
welcome to a free market world.

My question back to you is whether your prices fit into the ballpark of
other turners in your region producing items requiring similar skills
and time and for sale at similar venues? If you are low on the range,
then you might very well be undercutting others. If on the other hand
you are in the neighborhood then I'd respond that this annonymous
emailer has either unrealistic expectations or else he's not proficient
enough with his skills.

But Owen I don't just sell "in my region". I sell through my website AND
locally. It is notoriously hard to sell woodturnings locally so I have to
price items accordingly. Should I price items on my web site for the local
or international market? You see my quandry?

Snip


You mention above that $900.00 may not be reasonable but you KNOW
that
$100 is not. You fail however, to set for the turning world, an EXACT
price
that the turning should be in ALL areas of the globe.

Of course there is no exact price - but there is an acceptible range of
price depending on variables. Two of which are time and skills required.
I've hollowed a few pieces with smallish openings and have a rough idea
of the time and skills required. $100 translates to barely above minimum
wage - if that, if the completed piece is finely finished but that
doesn't even take into account materials, supplies, tools and equipment.
..

But again Owen, you mention an "acceptable range". Doesn't mean a damn
thing except to you in your area. My market is NOT the same as yours. I
remember quite some time ago reading where Steven Russell had sold a perfume
applicator for, as I recall, around $300.00. Hell I'd be lucky to get that
for my truck in my local market.....:-)

Are the time and skills on the level of Ellsworth (and his imitators)
only worth minimum wage? There are those who claim they are only selling
to augment their tool budget, they're also claiming, though silently,
that their skill and time is worthless

Not even going to try and convice you that minimum wage is fair.....but are
you trying to tell me that a simple hollow vessel that takes an hour or two
to complete is worth several thousand dollars? How much does that same
hollow vessel bring in Australia....the UK......Nigeria.......??

"Owen Lowe" wrote in message
news
In article , "George" george@least
wrote:

"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long

And we'll have socialism when we start telling people what they may or
may
not receive for their own work.

Just call me, Vlad.

I certainly hope I'm not coming across as dictating to people what they
can or can not charge. My point is that few have actually run through
the calculations or unabashedly value their abilities and so really
don't know how unfair they are being to themselves - as well as the
turning market as a whole.

The absolute LAST thing I consider, if at all, when pricing my turnings is
the "turning market as a whole". I have enough trouble with pricing without
worrying if I am meeting some "standard pricing" to support the "industry".
After all I really just want enough return to pay for my
sandpaper..........:-)

--

Regards,
M.J. (Mike) Orr

In article ,
"M.J." wrote:

Not even going to try and convice you that minimum wage is fair.....but are
you trying to tell me that a simple hollow vessel that takes an hour or two
to complete is worth several thousand dollars? How much does that same
hollow vessel bring in Australia....the UK......Nigeria.......??

I'm assuming we're still referring to the $100 vs. $900 Ellsworth-style
of hollow vessel. If you can turn such a vessel to completion in an hour
or two and have it comparable to his to such a degree that an
experienced woodturner (Darrell) wasn't able to tell a difference other
than the signature then, criminey, I am not worthy of being in your
presence.

I don't know about comparable vessels internationally, but I have seen
the prices for Tobias Kaye's sounding bowls and Hans Weissflogs lattice
boxes and they are certainly expensive from my bank account's point of
view.

(Just had to type of this quick comment as I mull the responses to my
posts.)

--
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long

"Owen Lowe" wrote in message
news
In article , "George" george@least


I certainly hope I'm not coming across as dictating to people what they
can or can not charge. My point is that few have actually run through
the calculations or unabashedly value their abilities and so really
don't know how unfair they are being to themselves - as well as the
turning market as a whole.

Yep, that's what socialism comes disguised as - 100% fairness.

The Kingfish never said that, of course.

In article D5oWd.25640$QQ3.912@trnddc02,
Lobby Dosser wrote:

Like anything else, they are worth what the market is willing to pay.

How much effect do folks who sell at very inexpensive prices (meaning
prices which may not accurately reflect the time, materials, skill, etc.
required to produce the product) have on keeping the market depressed?
(Rhetorical question unless someone wants to tackle it.)

--
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long

In article . com,
"Joe Fleming" wrote:

The question that every turner making a living at it needs to
deternine, therefore, is: "Does the market value of the stuff I do
support my needed minimum wage?". Of course, you need to factor in
your own learning curve to this.

Here is an example. I made "Dick Sing-like" ornaments with a finial
and top from a different wood, adding my own finial and ball design.
The market where I sell would not support more than about $20 to $25
for these ornaments. Since I can't make them fast enough, I quit doing
them. I changed my ornament design and do something that I can make a
reasonable profit with.

Exactly. Regarding the first paragraph above, my comment is that it
should apply to any turner, whether desiring to make a living at it or
merely augmenting his income by selling turnings.

Thank you Joe for relating your personal experience with the ornaments.
Recognizing that you were spending more time on them than you were
getting paid for is exactly my point - and one which I don't believe
other turners responding to this discussion accept.

--
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long

In article ,
"M.J." wrote:

But Owen I don't just sell "in my region". I sell through my website AND
locally. It is notoriously hard to sell woodturnings locally so I have to
price items accordingly. Should I price items on my web site for the local
or international market? You see my quandry?

Using the term "regional" was probably too limited to geographic
definition. I see your point, but would clarify that your selling
"region" is whatever sphere you choose to present your work -
geographic, by clientele, by venue, etc.

As to your problem of selling locally, it sounds as though you are
putting too much time or materials into the products and can't recoup
the costs because the buyers can't afford the finished items, for
whatever reason. Your response to this is to sell for less than you
need? Or do you cut back on time or materials to lessen your costs to
produce the items? (You can cut back on time by finishing to a lesser
degree or having fewer details of design.) I hope you are not trapped by
the mindset that to sell for any price is better than selling nothing.

I was going to add to that last sentence above, "You won't be in
business long with that sales strategy." It occurred to me that therein
might lie the crux of the pricing debate. Many turners who sell to
augment their income do not do so with a business mindset. They don't
see that they are indeed in business (no matter how small) and should
approach it in a business-like manner. They would rather sell something
for any price than sell nothing at all.

snip
Of course there is no exact price - but there is an acceptible range of
price depending on variables. Two of which are time and skills required.
I've hollowed a few pieces with smallish openings and have a rough idea
of the time and skills required. $100 translates to barely above minimum
wage - if that, if the completed piece is finely finished but that
doesn't even take into account materials, supplies, tools and equipment.
.

But again Owen, you mention an "acceptable range". Doesn't mean a damn
thing except to you in your area. My market is NOT the same as yours. I
remember quite some time ago reading where Steven Russell had sold a perfume
applicator for, as I recall, around $300.00. Hell I'd be lucky to get that
for my truck in my local market.....:-)

You are correct that the range in my sphere may be different than that
in yours. However... The $900 Ellsworth and $100 imitator were not
offered in different spheres. Nor was the Russell perfume applicator
offered in yours.

The pricing exercise for the juried show that I mentioned in a previous
post caused me a lot of uneasyness. The venue is in a high income area,
the show will feature invited turners from around the world, and I have
no experience participating in anything of this level - this arena is
certainly outside my own social and economic circles. I wanted to price
my work to ensure I wasn't leaving money on the table while at the same
time being realistic to what the audience might find financially
acceptable. At the price my fellow turners and I seemed to gravitate
towards, I can spend a little extra time to ensure the work is as
perfect as my skills allow. Another venue that might not support the
same price would not get the same attention to detail. (But that opens
an entirely different can'o'worms - do you make substantially similar
work to varying degrees of fineness to sell to non-similar markets?) In
other words, highly skilled and detailed work demands a decent return.
If one is making work to the same level as another turner and displayed
in the same market then the works should be priced similarly.

The arguments in this thread seem to eminate from those who say they
feel no obligation to the good of the selling community. What happens
when you find that you are being undercut by similarly skilled and
detailed work? How are you going to respond when the pieces you were
selling for $20, $40 or $100 are now being left on the table because Joe
over yonder is selling imitations of your work for 10% of what you
charge. Hell, he doesn't care what he gets for it - he says he's just as
happy giving it to passersby, afterall, it's only a hobby to him.

--
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long

Owen Lowe wrote:
How much effect do folks who sell at very inexpensive prices (meaning
prices which may not accurately reflect the time, materials, skill, etc.
required to produce the product) have on keeping the market depressed?
(Rhetorical question unless someone wants to tackle it.)

I don't think they have any impact whatsover. In my experience their
skill level, design ability and/or volume of production tend to be low,
and they generally only sell locally. As long as they declare their
income, I don't mind competition of that nature.


--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toolrest/

Owrn:


As I said previously...

A new low price is a new high price. (Given equal apparent value.)

However, that assumes "perfect knowledge". In most markets people are
not aware of all the choices -- unless you make them aware.

So one rule is -- do not "sell against" lower priced items. Indeed do
not sell against _anything or anyone_ -- unless you are both the best
and the cheapest -- together.

Another rule: You can move "down-market" easily. But once you become
known for low price and/or low quality is difficult to move up-market.

Another rule: If you are selling art items -- "one-off" the fewer you
sell the better off you are. That means that to earn a living you need
high prices and relatively few sales transactions - the fewer the
better... Selling takes time and effort.

Another issue. Calculate your cost of sales. I have heard time and
materials over and over again here and in similar forums. But few people
understand "marketing costs" and "selling costs" -- or if they do, they
deem them inconsequential.

In an "art" businesss. Cost of sales and marketing are your most
significant costs. Material is _usually_ and inconsequential cost.

Marketing
---------
Advertising
Internet access/Web page
Photography Costs
Ad design costs
Marketing Campaign costs
Show costs
Travel to show costs

Sales
-----
Office expense
Delivery costs
Shipping costs
Telephone costs
Overhead.


Marketing is the art pf having what you can get rid of. Sales is the art
of getting rid of what you have.

Marketing is strategic -- your education, your choice of subject and
presentation, your choice of sales methodology, your means and methods
of advertising.

Sales is tactical and is about getting rid of the piece in hand to the
person in front of you. You don't make "marketing calls" -- you make
sales calls.

On advertising - every ad should _sell_ - forget "Image Advertising".
Always try to sell something you have if you pay for an ad.


Was that enough?


Owen Lowe wrote:
In article D5oWd.25640$QQ3.912@trnddc02,
Lobby Dosser wrote:


Like anything else, they are worth what the market is willing to pay.


How much effect do folks who sell at very inexpensive prices (meaning
prices which may not accurately reflect the time, materials, skill, etc.
required to produce the product) have on keeping the market depressed?
(Rhetorical question unless someone wants to tackle it.)


--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

"Owen Lowe" wrote in message
news
In article D5oWd.25640$QQ3.912@trnddc02,
Lobby Dosser wrote:

Like anything else, they are worth what the market is willing to pay.

How much effect do folks who sell at very inexpensive prices (meaning
prices which may not accurately reflect the time, materials, skill, etc.
required to produce the product) have on keeping the market depressed?
(Rhetorical question unless someone wants to tackle it.)


Why do you keep insisting others play only by your rules?

You're displaying a lot of contempt for freedom of choice by both the
creator and purchaser of the piece here. Nobody can sell for a price which
they consider ample compensation, nor can anyone buy a piece by anyone but
those deemed elite, or at outrageously inflated prices? What's left for the
hoi polloi?

Touch of reality. We're selling round pieces of wood which we mostly create
to give ourselves pleasure and diversion, to people who are still allowed to
spend their disposable income on our stuff, or maybe the potter or painter
down the way, too. It would be nice if the buyers felt as if they owed us a
living, as we're supposed to feel toward the big names, but people can be
darn particular about backing their own taste with their money even when you
keep telling them what's good or who's deserving. I wouldn't have it any
other way. They are, after all buying turnings, which, when you think of
it, is what creates a market. An unsold turning is a total loss.

I've done three tuitions on turnings. Now, granted, they're at state
universities, but it was nice to have the opportunity to sell my firewood to
appreciative customers, rather than sit and carp about the taste of people
who were not buying my stuff, like others I've met. If you can't sell your
turnings for what you think they're worth, take up basketry, needlepoint, or
anything else which will earn what you think is fair. Let the folks who
enjoy turning sell their intermediate pieces for what they feel is fair to
finance the next, and get it out in front of the public (and off their
shelf), where it becomes, even to an elitist, at least a poor example to
which the work of the established (how _did_ they get established, anyway?)
may be compared. More power to 'em, and may they grow in their craft and
capability by getting some return for a turning that some elite "jurist"
might throw in the stove.

In article , Owen Lowe wrote:

I hope you are not trapped by
the mindset that to sell for any price is better than selling nothing.

Depending on one's individual circumstances, that may be the case (or close to
it). For someone with lots of time and very little money, selling for any
price above the break-even point may indeed be preferable to not selling.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

Owen Lowe wrote:

In article D5oWd.25640$QQ3.912@trnddc02,
Lobby Dosser wrote:

Like anything else, they are worth what the market is willing to pay.

How much effect do folks who sell at very inexpensive prices (meaning
prices which may not accurately reflect the time, materials, skill,
etc. required to produce the product) have on keeping the market
depressed? (Rhetorical question unless someone wants to tackle it.)


I suspect not very much at all. Take the $900 vs $100 hollow form. They
are totally different markets. How many $900 items do you see at the
average craft fair? How many $100 items at the average juried show or
upscale gallery? Folks who sell at prices which do not reflect the time
and materials - particularly the time - are not likely to be doing it
for a living and probably not selling very much at all.

Notice that I left skill out of the equation.. I think that a skilled
and talented turner will know that they are and price accordingly.

Another question that comes to mind is how did Ellsworth price his work
when he started? I'd guess that none of the 'names' started selling as
full time turners.

Owen Lowe wrote:

In article . com,
"Joe Fleming" wrote:

The question that every turner making a living at it needs to
deternine, therefore, is: "Does the market value of the stuff I do
support my needed minimum wage?". Of course, you need to factor in
your own learning curve to this.

Here is an example. I made "Dick Sing-like" ornaments with a finial
and top from a different wood, adding my own finial and ball design.
The market where I sell would not support more than about $20 to $25
for these ornaments. Since I can't make them fast enough, I quit
doing them. I changed my ornament design and do something that I can
make a reasonable profit with.

Exactly. Regarding the first paragraph above, my comment is that it
should apply to any turner, whether desiring to make a living at it or
merely augmenting his income by selling turnings.

Thank you Joe for relating your personal experience with the
ornaments.
Recognizing that you were spending more time on them than you were
getting paid for is exactly my point - and one which I don't believe
other turners responding to this discussion accept.

I think everyone 'accepts' the premise. I don't think some of us believe
that a turner who does not price effectively has much effect on the
market. If that turner is full time, they will not last. If they are
part time, they will not be making much product.

Owen Lowe wrote:


snips


I was going to add to that last sentence above, "You won't be in
business long with that sales strategy." It occurred to me that
therein might lie the crux of the pricing debate. Many turners who
sell to augment their income do not do so with a business mindset.
They don't see that they are indeed in business (no matter how small)
and should approach it in a business-like manner. They would rather
sell something for any price than sell nothing at all.

They might be selling because 'product' is crowding them out of the
workshop; all the relatives and friends dread opening the Christmas
present; or they want to boost their ego. Folks doing turning for a
living will rapidly determine correct pricing of their work or fail.



Snip

The arguments in this thread seem to eminate from those who say they
feel no obligation to the good of the selling community.

Do the 'names' feel an obligation beyond sustaining their own income
levels?

What happens
when you find that you are being undercut by similarly skilled and
detailed work?

You do something else. Or you sell somewhere else.

How are you going to respond when the pieces you were
selling for $20, $40 or $100 are now being left on the table because
Joe over yonder is selling imitations of your work for 10% of what you
charge.

Has this happened to you?

Hell, he doesn't care what he gets for it - he says he's just
as happy giving it to passersby, afterall, it's only a hobby to him.

How much can he turn out that is comparable in design and execution if it
is a hobby?

Now for those of us who are retired, it may be a different story. We can
turn all day long. But how many of Arch's 'trees' or my 'bowl with hole
in bottom' do you think it would take to destroy the market as we know
it?

Owen Lowe wrote:
In article D5oWd.25640$QQ3.912@trnddc02,
Lobby Dosser wrote:

Like anything else, they are worth what the market is willing to pay.

How much effect do folks who sell at very inexpensive prices (meaning
prices which may not accurately reflect the time, materials, skill, etc.
required to produce the product) have on keeping the market depressed?
(Rhetorical question unless someone wants to tackle it.)

I suspect that people sell more or less at exactly the appropriate price
for their time, materials, and skill. Beginning or casual turners are
likely turning found wood or firewood, probably have a lot of time on
their hands (or are hiding from a wife w/a honeydo list!) and have
average skill at best.

Prices for their pieces probably should be fairly low, given that their
materials are often close to free, they have plenty of time which is
thus, by definition, less valuable than that of a full time professional
turner, and their skill level precludes them from making something that
will really compete in the same arena as a more skilled turner.

I've always felt that woodturners are a bit of an anachronism to some
extent. We want to earn our living doing something that is more at home
in the 18th or 19th century. Mass production has effectively stripped
away the ability of the common woodturner to realistically make a living
at turning. Some will manage to, but they won't ever be rich. Even the
'names' do things on the side like teach, make books/videos, sell lathes
or signature tools, etc. The average household just isn't going to pay
us what we need to charge to make a living.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that we all have competition of
some sort so the task ahead of us is to define our market and sell to
it. One can go down to Walmart or similar and buy wood salad bowls from
Asia for $10 - $20 or so. They're all quite uniform in size, nicely
finished, although usually bland wood. I can't compete w/that. One of
my salad bowls will retail for maybe $75 to $150 bucks but I sell at a
gift shop, not a Walmart.

Are they worth that? I dunno. I sure wouldn't pay that much for a darn
bowl. But folks do so I guess they are worth that. Worth is really
just what you can get for something after all. Thing is, they're not
buying a bowl from me. They're buying a unique hand crafted memory of
their cruise to Alaska.

To some extent thinking that lowball woodturners should raise their
prices is like asking if the makers of a Chevy shouldn't double their
prices to keep the makers of a Lexus going. Bit of an exaggeration
perhaps, but it draws the point. If I'm selling at a flea market, I
expect to sell at flea market prices, competing against other flea
market turners. If I'm selling at a gift shop, or moving up a notch at
an art gallery, I expect to compete at gift shop/art gallery prices. It
doesn't matter what the flea market guy is doing - my customers aren't
looking at his pieces.

By the time someone has the skill to compete w/me, he's going to have an
idea of his skill level and what his work is worth. Until then, he
really isn't competition. Just like I'm not any competition to John
Jordan or David Ellsworth. I'm just not that good.

I say let the market decide. If someone is undercutting another to the
point that the latter can't earn what they think they need to, then they
need to redirect their marketing efforts in a new direction. If there
is no market for their turnings, then the market has decided. It's a
strange mindset that seems to permeate our culture that markets should
be 'protected'. Maybe Congress outta pass a law that nobody can sell a
salad bowl for less than $X.oo. Wohoo - we're in the big leagues now! g

First thing they taught us in Economics 101 was that in the early part
of the last century the railroads thought they were in the railroad
business. They weren't. They were (are) in the transportation
business. As a result, they've seen a smaller and smaller slice of the pie.

I'm not in the woodturning business. I'm in the tourist business
(primarily). I have about 4 to 5 months in which to sell the bulk of my
work, and virtually no chance of repeat customers. But that's OK,
because that's the market I *chose* to pursue. (Of course, by day I'm a
computer doinker, so if I choose to go fishing instead of turning my
family doesn't starve.)

What market have you chosen to pursue?*

Just my .02...

....Kevin
*Rhetorical question, not directed at Owen in particular.
--
Kevin Miller
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
Juneau, Alaska

"George" george@least wrote in :


"Kip" wrote in message
ps.com...
I read the same article. Also recall a quote from Mark Lindquist to
the effect that mankind has been making vases for several thousand
years and that it is unlikely that one would be able to come up with
a completely new design. The point, IMHO, is to avoid essentially
carbon copying pieces

Browsing at my used book store yesterday and ran across a book called
_500 Bowls_ or similar. I started thumbing through it, and there was
the spitting image of one of my weird cherry 4-legged bowls. Only
difference was the finial, really. Fortunately, the piece was made
about the same time as mine, or so it would seem.

Daughter was with me, and when I told her to look, she recognized it
immediately. "It's just as ugly as the one _you_ made."

Then while I was protesting, she slipped her books on my stack. Forty
bucks became sixty....




Smart Kid.
Hank

"Kevin Miller" wrote in message
...

I've always felt that woodturners are a bit of an anachronism to some
extent. We want to earn our living doing something that is more at home
in the 18th or 19th century. Mass production has effectively stripped
away the ability of the common woodturner to realistically make a living
at turning. Some will manage to, but they won't ever be rich. Even the
'names' do things on the side like teach, make books/videos, sell lathes
or signature tools, etc. The average household just isn't going to pay
us what we need to charge to make a living.


Consider the chair bodgers working in the woods for what, even in their day,
was a meager wage. Yet their work was the only kind which could pay the
bills - production, not creation. The turning as "art," where what's sold
is sizzle, not steak, is a relatively new phenomenon, and its success, like
all other non-necessities, is due more to the pocketbook of the purchaser
than the ability of the artist. Wood pleases the eye, but must also remain
in competition for that eye and dollar with a long-established art -
pottery, and another which fascinates me personally - glass.

"George" george@least wrote in message
...

"Owen Lowe" wrote in message
news
In article , "George" george@least


I certainly hope I'm not coming across as dictating to people what they
can or can not charge. My point is that few have actually run through
the calculations or unabashedly value their abilities and so really
don't know how unfair they are being to themselves - as well as the
turning market as a whole.

Yep, that's what socialism comes disguised as - 100% fairness.

The Kingfish never said that, of course.

Doesn't socialism also support subsidies. That is what I see Owen arguing
against. Many turners subsidize their turning sales with their day job
income.
Martin

Seems as if this thread has veered from legal and moral problems of
plagiarism to questions of unfair business practices, unless of course,
it's not considered plagiary or unfair if the copy is priced high
enough.

Is it wrong for a turner to work a day job in order to keep the prices
of his/her turnings affordable?



Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Arch wrote:
Seems as if this thread has veered from legal and moral problems of
plagiarism to questions of unfair business practices, unless of course,
it's not considered plagiary or unfair if the copy is priced high
enough.

Is it wrong for a turner to work a day job in order to keep the prices
of his/her turnings affordable?

Is it _necessary_ for a turner to work a day job in order to keep the
prices of his/her turnings affordable?






Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

Will wrote:

Arch wrote:
Seems as if this thread has veered from legal and moral problems of
plagiarism to questions of unfair business practices, unless of
course, it's not considered plagiary or unfair if the copy is priced
high enough.

Is it wrong for a turner to work a day job in order to keep the
prices of his/her turnings affordable?

Is it _necessary_ for a turner to work a day job in order to keep the
prices of his/her turnings affordable?

To the best of my knowlege, all of the 'name' turners write books, give
paid demos, teach classes,, make videos, sell tools, or all of those.
So, I guess the answer is yes.







Turn to Safety, Arch
Fortiter



http://community.webtv.net/almcc/MacsMusings

"Martin Rost" rostmartin @ hot mail . com wrote in message
...


Doesn't socialism also support subsidies. That is what I see Owen arguing
against. Many turners subsidize their turning sales with their day job
income.
Martin


Fixed prices are not "subsidies?" Of course we will all assume, with Owen's
optimism, that they will be fixed higher, not lower.

In the evil empire days, all Soviet products including those produced by
"craft cooperatives" were priced at the factory. Membership in such co-ops
was, of course, often determined by politics, rather than proficiency.

George wrote:
"Martin Rost" rostmartin @ hot mail . com wrote in message
...



Doesn't socialism also support subsidies. That is what I see Owen arguing
against. Many turners subsidize their turning sales with their day job
income.
Martin



Fixed prices are not "subsidies?" Of course we will all assume, with Owen's
optimism, that they will be fixed higher, not lower.

Are duties fixed by the state "subsidies" then? Countervailing duties,
import taxes etc?

In the evil empire days, all Soviet products including those produced by
"craft cooperatives" were priced at the factory. Membership in such co-ops
was, of course, often determined by politics, rather than proficiency.



--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

Will wrote:
Is it _necessary_ for a turner to work a day job in order to keep the
prices of his/her turnings affordable?

In most cases it's _necessary_ for a turner to eat. The guys that are
doing the "undercutting" aren't accomplished artists for the most part,
and are selling more treen that museum pieces...

....Kevin
--
Kevin Miller
http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
Juneau, Alaska

In article 6PHWd.28486$uc.13373@trnddc09,
Lobby Dosser wrote:

The arguments in this thread seem to eminate from those who say they
feel no obligation to the good of the selling community.

Do the 'names' feel an obligation beyond sustaining their own income
levels?

I have no idea since none have participated in this thread. But, I would
say that they have drawn attention to turning as art'n'craft which can't
hurt any turner. They also appear to be selling work at prices which
support each other, and, encourage others new-to-selling to price their
work to reflect the time and skills the person has developed.

snip
How are you going to respond when the pieces you were
selling for $20, $40 or $100 are now being left on the table because
Joe over yonder is selling imitations of your work for 10% of what you
charge.

Has this happened to you?

Does it matter? It certainly appears to have happened with the $900
Ellsworth vs. $100 no-name hollow turning.

Hell, he doesn't care what he gets for it - he says he's just
as happy giving it to passersby, afterall, it's only a hobby to him.

How much can he turn out that is comparable in design and execution if it
is a hobby?

Well, he inherited a fortune as well as retired from a CEO position with
a Platinum retirement package - he really doesn't care if he ever earns
another dime but he has to find something to do with his time since his
wife prefers the company of the pool boy.

--
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long

In article ,
(Doug Miller) wrote:

I hope you are not trapped by
the mindset that to sell for any price is better than selling nothing.

Depending on one's individual circumstances, that may be the case (or close
to
it). For someone with lots of time and very little money, selling for any
price above the break-even point may indeed be preferable to not selling.

My whole argument in this pricing debate is that I suspect there are
quite a few turners out there who have no idea where their break-even
point is.

--
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long

In article BzHWd.28484$uc.21622@trnddc09,
Lobby Dosser wrote:

I think everyone 'accepts' the premise. I don't think some of us believe
that a turner who does not price effectively has much effect on the
market. If that turner is full time, they will not last. If they are
part time, they will not be making much product.

I don't know - seems I know of quite a few turners who hit the Saturday
shows, summer farmers markets. But I have no firm numbers to cite.

--
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long

In article ,
Derek Andrews wrote:

As long as they declare their
income, I don't mind competition of that nature.

What do you mean by declaring their income? Taxes?

--
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long

In article ,
Kevin Miller wrote:

To some extent thinking that lowball woodturners should raise their
prices is like asking if the makers of a Chevy shouldn't double their
prices to keep the makers of a Lexus going. Bit of an exaggeration
perhaps, but it draws the point. If I'm selling at a flea market, I
expect to sell at flea market prices, competing against other flea
market turners. If I'm selling at a gift shop, or moving up a notch at
an art gallery, I expect to compete at gift shop/art gallery prices. It
doesn't matter what the flea market guy is doing - my customers aren't
looking at his pieces.

But Chevy isn't making and selling a clone of a Lexus. That's the whole
starting point for this discussion. Copying someone else's work.
Ellsworth drew a distinction when the copies are put up for sale. In
effect, copying is OK for skill-building and personal enjoyment. Copying
to make sales is unethical. Many of these imitators don't charge prices
comparable to the creator's prices and are not only using someone else's
design and ideas but may be pulling sales from them as well.

By the time someone has the skill to compete w/me, he's going to have an
idea of his skill level and what his work is worth. Until then, he
really isn't competition. Just like I'm not any competition to John
Jordan or David Ellsworth. I'm just not that good.

I say let the market decide. If someone is undercutting another to the
point that the latter can't earn what they think they need to, then they
need to redirect their marketing efforts in a new direction. If there
is no market for their turnings, then the market has decided.

I think the effect will be that turners with unique designs and
techniques will no longer feel they want to share with others. The
market for turning seems fairly small - why show others how to make what
you make so they can copy you and potentially take away sales? Consider
that this phenomenon of wide-spread sharing only goes back 25 years or
so. I have heard and read many times that the turning community appears
to be unique in that successful turners are so willing to give of
themselves so that others may learn. Will imitation to make sales bring
about the demise of the open community?

--
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long