Woodturning (rec.crafts.woodturning) To discuss tools, techniques, styles, materials, shows and competitions, education and educational materials related to woodturning. All skill levels are welcome, from art turners to production turners, beginners to masters.

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  #81   Report Post  
Owen Lowe
 
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In article ,
Will wrote:

Was that enough?


Plenty. Thank you for taking the time to remind me of all the other
things to consider with selling.

--
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long
  #82   Report Post  
Owen Lowe
 
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In article arHWd.41896$uc.15903@trnddc01,
Lobby Dosser wrote:

I suspect not very much at all. Take the $900 vs $100 hollow form. They
are totally different markets. How many $900 items do you see at the
average craft fair? How many $100 items at the average juried show or
upscale gallery? Folks who sell at prices which do not reflect the time
and materials - particularly the time - are not likely to be doing it
for a living and probably not selling very much at all.

Notice that I left skill out of the equation.. I think that a skilled
and talented turner will know that they are and price accordingly.


Apparently not.

According to Darrell's account, the $100 hollow form imitation *was*
presented in the same market as the $900 original. And other than a
signature on the bottom it was indistinguishable from the work of the
known turner. Why should we excuse the non-pro turner who may not rely
on sales for a living and may not price his product in such a way as to
reflect his time, skills and direct expenses? Might the juxtaposition of
these two indistinguishable, as to maker, objects cause the higher
priced one to be passed over in favor of the inexpensive one? (I argued
in past posts that the $100 price was certainly, in my opinion,
unrealistically priced too low - while I suspect the $900 is high though
much closer to an accurate return for the turner's input.)

Actually your comments bring us right back to the original posting about
plagiarism. Ellsworth's article says (paraphrasing) that copying someone
else's design is a natural desire and should be encouraged as a learning
process. Displaying these things in your personal surroundings is to be
expected. However he draws the line when price tags are put on the
imitations. He says, "... copying for the purpose of learning can become
a tool for self-discovery. Copying for profit is simply a way of
stealing another person's voice and using it as if it were our own."

The pieces I'm excited about making for the future take me a lot of
time. Upwards of 18-20 hours - i.e. half a week. I don't see the time
coming down a whole lot as experience with the process grows. I plan on
being paid fairly for my design, turning and finishing skills - as well
as being able to purchase new tools, supplies, covering sales costs,
etc. I'm going to be ****ed off when someone who works outside turning
makes his imitations in the evenings over several weeks and sells them
for 20% of what I know is a reasonable price. Almost makes me want to
hoard the design and protect what I've created from imitators who could
care less that they are taking from me.

--
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long
  #83   Report Post  
George
 
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"Will" wrote in message
. ..


George wrote:
"Martin Rost" rostmartin @ hot mail . com wrote in message
...



Doesn't socialism also support subsidies. That is what I see Owen

arguing
against. Many turners subsidize their turning sales with their day job
income.
Martin



Fixed prices are not "subsidies?" Of course we will all assume, with

Owen's
optimism, that they will be fixed higher, not lower.


Are duties fixed by the state "subsidies" then? Countervailing duties,
import taxes etc?


Yep, that's what they're supposed to do - limit competition and/or favor the
home team. Soviets had a solution to that as well. Non-convertible
currency. In order to buy a foreign product, you had to be eligible to do
so, and pay in convertible currency.


  #84   Report Post  
Derek Andrews
 
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Owen Lowe wrote:
As long as they declare their
income, I don't mind competition of that nature.


What do you mean by declaring their income? Taxes?


Yes. Income taxes and sales, taxes where required by law. It's very easy
to turn a hobby like turning into an income generator, but when it grows
beyond selling to friends and relatives, my ethics tell me I should pay
my dues.

The sales tax is probably the most visible issue. Every show I do (which
thankfully isn't many) I get customers complaining about having to pay
sales tax, or point blank refusing. I'm sure that most people who have
to collect this do so, but the craft show circuit I am into is full of
part-timers who don't sell enough to have to register.

--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toolrest/








  #85   Report Post  
Will
 
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Derek Andrews wrote:
Owen Lowe wrote:

As long as they declare their income, I don't mind competition of
that nature.



What do you mean by declaring their income? Taxes?



Yes. Income taxes and sales, taxes where required by law. It's very easy
to turn a hobby like turning into an income generator, but when it grows
beyond selling to friends and relatives, my ethics tell me I should pay
my dues.


That could make you unusual. (Not a criticism nor praise -- just an
observation.)


The sales tax is probably the most visible issue. Every show I do (which
thankfully isn't many) I get customers complaining about having to pay
sales tax, or point blank refusing.


Then price them "taxes-in" and keep your thoughts to yourself on the
issue. It's easy to work the calculation backwards and submit the
required taxes. (I was going to say "appropriate" not required - but we
know how much "appropriate" is in this case.) This is done all the time
in these "sensitive" markets.


I'm sure that most people who have
to collect this do so, but the craft show circuit I am into is full of
part-timers who don't sell enough to have to register.


Derek:

Is it possible to move up-market? Are you restricted by a combination of
time, geography and cost?


Best wishes.


Nice web site.

--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek


  #86   Report Post  
Will
 
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George wrote:
"Will" wrote in message
. ..


George wrote:

"Martin Rost" rostmartin @ hot mail . com wrote in message
...




Doesn't socialism also support subsidies. That is what I see Owen


arguing

against. Many turners subsidize their turning sales with their day job
income.
Martin



Fixed prices are not "subsidies?" Of course we will all assume, with


Owen's

optimism, that they will be fixed higher, not lower.


Are duties fixed by the state "subsidies" then? Countervailing duties,
import taxes etc?



Yep, that's what they're supposed to do - limit competition and/or favor the
home team.


A rare understanding there. Many people never get that! LOL

Soviets had a solution to that as well.


THE USA government has the their solutions too I guess. Protracted legal
suits and "anti-dumping" duties I guess.

Non-convertible
currency. In order to buy a foreign product, you had to be eligible to do
so, and pay in convertible currency.


Guess we should go back on the gold standard.





--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek
  #87   Report Post  
Will
 
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Owen Lowe wrote:
In article arHWd.41896$uc.15903@trnddc01,
Lobby Dosser wrote:



The pieces I'm excited about making for the future take me a lot of
time. Upwards of 18-20 hours - i.e. half a week. I don't see the time
coming down a whole lot as experience with the process grows. I plan on
being paid fairly for my design, turning and finishing skills - as well
as being able to purchase new tools, supplies, covering sales costs,
etc. I'm going to be ****ed off when someone who works outside turning
makes his imitations in the evenings over several weeks and sells them
for 20% of what I know is a reasonable price. Almost makes me want to
hoard the design and protect what I've created from imitators who could
care less that they are taking from me.


The are you going to charge $2000 a piece? Or will the market not bear
the "real" selling price?

Will you have to sell them for $200 -- just to get a buyer?


--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek
  #88   Report Post  
Will
 
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Owen:

Not intended for specifically you. Did the list as much for myself as
anything - just a quick reminder in Marketing 101. :-)

However, if everyone thought of all those costs and "jobs" then we would
have fewer people selling - because it costs money to sell and many
people "subsidize" each piece sold by using their "real income" to
produce and sell the pieces they make.

People who "dabble" in an arts and crafts occupation tend to bring down
the prices. People who dabble in the real estate market (or stocks) --
by contrast -- tend to raise the prices -- and cause a boom and bust
mentality.

Their practice of "dabbling" in crafts production cuts into your income
-- by perpetuating a long-term "bust market" in crafts.

Think of it this way. If you are selling a house, the market is normally
controlled by the lowest price house on the street. If you have a $1
million home on a "$150,000 house" street. It is very tough to sell at
your price - maybe impossible. A $155K house will sell easily.

A new low -- is a new high.



Owen Lowe wrote:
In article ,
Will wrote:


Was that enough?



Plenty. Thank you for taking the time to remind me of all the other
things to consider with selling.


--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek
  #89   Report Post  
Will
 
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Lobby Dosser wrote:
I think everyone 'accepts' the premise. I don't think some of us believe
that a turner who does not price effectively has much effect on the
market. If that turner is full time, they will not last. If they are
part time, they will not be making much product.


You don't have to make a lot of product to depress the market. You don't
even have to sell it. You just have to make a low value product and
offer it. That is usually enough to encourage people to buy neither.

Think about the mechanism. Good horses usually win by a "nose". Same
with any good work. Most good work is "a little bit better in all the
details" -- apparently to the consumer.

So -- if you were buying a work and there were $100 pieces and $900
pieces -- very similar except the more expensive piece was a bit better
in all the respects -- actually making a much better piece in reality.
Would you wait to see if the expensive piece were lowered in price? Bet
you would.

If you were the seller -- would you eventually cave-in on your price?
Probably.

The lower price is usually set by somebody wanting to pay for their
lathe (saw or whatever) and their supplies.

Their work is usually "good" but not "great". Since that is the majority
of the crafts market -- that is probably how the pricing is set.

This was pretty terse. The explanation should take a lot more care --
but I have a stool to make today since I decide not to go to the PDAC
except for the last day - tomorrow. Let the younger folks stand around
all day. :-)



--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek
  #90   Report Post  
Derek Andrews
 
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Will wrote:
That could make you unusual. (Not a criticism nor praise -- just an
observation.)


I didn't say I like paying taxes

Then price them "taxes-in" and keep your thoughts to yourself on the
issue. It's easy to work the calculation backwards and submit the
required taxes. (I was going to say "appropriate" not required - but we
know how much "appropriate" is in this case.) This is done all the time
in these "sensitive" markets.


It is always at the back of my mind to do this, but it introduces the
problems of increasing ticket price and creating a disparity in inline
and offline price structures. Maybe next time I review my costs and
pricing structure I will bite the bullet.

When the tax structure in this province was changed a few years back,
the original intention was to use tax inclusive pricing, but it met with
a lot of opposition from the 'retail giant' lobby and our spineless
politicians backed down. I believe it would have been much better for
the consumer. I much prefer the way VAT is implemented in the UK.

Is it possible to move up-market? Are you restricted by a combination of
time, geography and cost?


Most of those factors are a problem. The nearest decent shows would
require overnight stays, so that immediately ups the capital cost of
doing a show, not to mention the much higher booth fees. I would also
need a new booth and lots more stock than I ever have at that time of
year. That in turn would require a larger vehicle to get it all there.
Maybe one day, but on the other hand my dream is to be able to drop
shows from my marketing mix altogether


Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toolrest/










  #91   Report Post  
Derek Andrews
 
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Will wrote:
THE USA government has the their solutions too I guess.


I wouldn't put it past them to have been slipping BSE infected feed to
Canadian cattle, or blighting our spuds, or...... Any excuse to close
the border.

--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toolrest/








  #92   Report Post  
Will
 
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Derek Andrews wrote:
Will wrote:

THE USA government has their solutions too I guess.



I wouldn't put it past them to have been slipping BSE infected feed to
Canadian cattle, or blighting our spuds, or...... Any excuse to close
the border.


Yeah! It time we put "our guys" along the border to guard it properly.
Get them to polish up their Lee Enfields, get a couple of Sopwiths to
patrol the land border and a couple of those Surplus DUKWS to patrol the
river borders. That otta stop-em-cold-in-their-tracks. LOL

No more spud infecting so-called tourists gonna get in here... ROTFLMAO


--
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
  #93   Report Post  
Will
 
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Derek Andrews wrote:
Will wrote:

Most of those factors are a problem. The nearest decent shows would
require overnight stays, so that immediately ups the capital cost of
doing a show, not to mention the much higher booth fees. I would also
need a new booth and lots more stock than I ever have at that time of
year. That in turn would require a larger vehicle to get it all there.
Maybe one day, but on the other hand my dream is to be able to drop
shows from my marketing mix altogether


Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toolrest/


Maybe you should consider doing the shows with someone who does related
work. Turner and a small furniture maker together etc. or something...

I have been thinking about finding a craft jeweler to work the shows
together. (When I start.)

Used these tactics before in volume marketing. Always having stuff that
related to the main sale. That way you could sell on the "real or
perceived" issue -- since you had all the pieces...

--
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
  #94   Report Post  
George
 
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"Will" wrote in message
. ..


Yep, that's what they're supposed to do - limit competition and/or favor

the
home team.


A rare understanding there. Many people never get that! LOL

Soviets had a solution to that as well.


THE USA government has the their solutions too I guess. Protracted legal
suits and "anti-dumping" duties I guess.

Non-convertible
currency. In order to buy a foreign product, you had to be eligible to

do
so, and pay in convertible currency.


Guess we should go back on the gold standard.


Swing and a miss. There is more to trade economics than that.

Lets talk steak first, then sizzle. Argentina produces steak at a lower
cost than a Nebraska producer because it has lower cost of production, or
export subsidy, or might even be "dumping," which is selling below even its
low cost of production because getting something keeps its producers in
business instead of falling into whatever social safety net they might
have - presumably at a higher social cost than the anticipated loss from
selling below cost of production. Then there are other considerations, like
creating a demand which will be fulfilled later at a higher price. Won't
even go into balance-of-payments considerations where selling for a more
universally accepted currency will buy things their money won't.

So much for a 12 oz T-bone, which should not be considered as merely 12 oz
of high-grade protein. Now we try to sell the sizzle. It can be as simple
as Bonanza versus the ambience of your favorite steak house, or we can
vigorously promote the piece as tastier because it's Angus rather than
whiteface, more patriotic because it's locally produced, environmentally
friendly, or perhaps it's "signature" beef which has received a testimonial
from some gourmand. This touches on the subject of this thread - is there
some definable "value" beyond 12 oz of meat or a 14" ash bowl? Simple
answer, there is if the prospective buyer thinks there is.

My turning wood arrives at $60 per cord. Some city guy pays half that for a
single blank, where I get a dozen pieces for the same - more if I use a
coring system. My lathe is an antique, my tools are not the latest alloy,
I'm efficient enough to make the thing within two hours, and my cost of
living and standard of living may be lower as well. Not to mention, the
prospective buyers in this lower wage area are more interested in a bowl
than my name on the bottom. Steak versus sizzle.

Do I charge more because the other guy's costs or desired return is higher?
Most call that gouging. What if the other guy has a more saleable
signature - s/he's "recognized" as a great turner. If they've got a
monopoly on sizzle, I'm going to have to sell steak, or sell nothing.
Either that, or come September I'm going to be short on tuition, my shelves
full of unsold stock, which makes it some pretty labor-intensive firewood.

So I'm not in competition with that recognized turner at all. I can't
compete. What I charge for steak in no way affects the price of sizzle. If
my piece happens to resemble his - well, as we know, an infinite number of
monkeys like me will eventually produce pieces that look like someone
else's. Of course, they make things that look like mine, too.


  #95   Report Post  
George
 
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"Derek Andrews" wrote in message
...
The sales tax is probably the most visible issue. Every show I do (which
thankfully isn't many) I get customers complaining about having to pay
sales tax, or point blank refusing. I'm sure that most people who have
to collect this do so, but the craft show circuit I am into is full of
part-timers who don't sell enough to have to register.


Unless your governing body is exceptionally generous, you _must_ collect and
pay sales tax, except on one-time sales of personal property. You don't
have to have an EIN to pay tax in my state, they take it based on SSAN.

After a particularly busy feeding frenzy of purchasers a few years back, I
started rolling taxes into my prices and rounding to the quarter (favoring
me, of course). If I hadn't, my daughter suggested she would never help me
sell again. Since I enjoy shooting the breeze with other wood lovers more
than making change and bagging, I took her advice.




  #96   Report Post  
Will
 
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George wrote:
"Will" wrote in message
. ..


Yep, that's what they're supposed to do - limit competition and/or favor


the

home team.


A rare understanding there. Many people never get that! LOL


Soviets had a solution to that as well.


THE USA government has the their solutions too I guess. Protracted legal
suits and "anti-dumping" duties I guess.


Non-convertible
currency. In order to buy a foreign product, you had to be eligible to


do

so, and pay in convertible currency.


Guess we should go back on the gold standard.



Swing and a miss. There is more to trade economics than that.

Lets talk steak first, then sizzle. Argentina produces steak at a lower
cost than a Nebraska producer because it has lower cost of production, or
export subsidy, or might even be "dumping," which is selling below even its
low cost of production because getting something keeps its producers in
business instead of falling into whatever social safety net they might
have - presumably at a higher social cost than the anticipated loss from
selling below cost of production. Then there are other considerations, like
creating a demand which will be fulfilled later at a higher price. Won't
even go into balance-of-payments considerations where selling for a more
universally accepted currency will buy things their money won't.

So much for a 12 oz T-bone, which should not be considered as merely 12 oz
of high-grade protein. Now we try to sell the sizzle. It can be as simple
as Bonanza versus the ambience of your favorite steak house, or we can
vigorously promote the piece as tastier because it's Angus rather than
whiteface, more patriotic because it's locally produced, environmentally
friendly, or perhaps it's "signature" beef which has received a testimonial
from some gourmand. This touches on the subject of this thread - is there
some definable "value" beyond 12 oz of meat or a 14" ash bowl? Simple
answer, there is if the prospective buyer thinks there is.

My turning wood arrives at $60 per cord. Some city guy pays half that for a
single blank, where I get a dozen pieces for the same - more if I use a
coring system. My lathe is an antique, my tools are not the latest alloy,
I'm efficient enough to make the thing within two hours, and my cost of
living and standard of living may be lower as well. Not to mention, the
prospective buyers in this lower wage area are more interested in a bowl
than my name on the bottom. Steak versus sizzle.

Do I charge more because the other guy's costs or desired return is higher?
Most call that gouging. What if the other guy has a more saleable
signature - s/he's "recognized" as a great turner. If they've got a
monopoly on sizzle, I'm going to have to sell steak, or sell nothing.
Either that, or come September I'm going to be short on tuition, my shelves
full of unsold stock, which makes it some pretty labor-intensive firewood.

So I'm not in competition with that recognized turner at all. I can't
compete. What I charge for steak in no way affects the price of sizzle. If
my piece happens to resemble his - well, as we know, an infinite number of
monkeys like me will eventually produce pieces that look like someone
else's. Of course, they make things that look like mine, too.



I think we are pretty much in agreement. What you said lays out the
issues and offers not too much in the way of a universal solution.
Mainly because there is none.

Sounds like the Canada-USA timber/softwood war in a nutshell.

You seem to have a better understanding than some International
Negotiators and Legal Experts I have run into.

I will leave it at that.

PS: Run for President. They could use you. (No humour intended)

Best wishes. Sell lots of bowls.

Liked your web site btw. Will use your techniques for some of my
turnings. (No I won't send you a royalty -- just think of you. :-) )

--
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
  #97   Report Post  
Darrell Feltmate
 
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George
I like your comments on "steak and sizzle." I used to live within ten
minutes of a professional turner. I was turning craft (I like to think high
quality craft, but craft none the less) and he was turning art. Both of us
overlapped a fair bit. We were also good friends and still are. I would turn
a salad bowl similar to one of his. Mine sold for $75.00 and his for
$200.00. Part of his "sizzle" was his reputation, well earned and enjoyed.
Collectors bought his work more so than did the casual buyer. They bought
mine. We sold in the same place and in fact he had some of my turnings in
his gallery. No conflict there. On the other hand, there was a regional
pricing of most things as a starting price. No collusion, no price fixing,
just a thought of what a piece of a certain type should bring. Part of the
gentleman's agreement was to keep people like me, a hobby turner, from
affecting the income of the pros.
On the other hand, there was another turner in the area trying to become
pro. Both my friend and I helped him with technique and such. I had a vase
for sale at about $80.00, my pro friend had a similar one for sale at
$300.00, the new guy had a similar one for sale at $260.00. The pro sold his
first as I recall, I sold mine second, and as far as I know the new guy
still has his after these years. He needed more sizzle to justify the extra
cost.


--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com


  #98   Report Post  
Derek Andrews
 
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George wrote:
Unless your governing body is exceptionally generous, you _must_

collect and
pay sales tax, except on one-time sales of personal property.


Unfortunately our governments likes to make things as complicated as
they possibly can, so they have implemented a ceiling below which
registration is optional. They have simplified the system somewhat by
combining federal and provincial taxes into one entity, but only in
three provinces. Fun eh?

--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toolrest/








  #99   Report Post  
Derek Andrews
 
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Darrell Feltmate wrote:
George
I like your comments on "steak and sizzle."


I think you have hit it on the head.

I think many of the economic theories can only be applied to
commodities. You can't sell a barrel of oil for anything much other than
the current global price for oil.

Things change a bit when you get into consumer commodites, say digital
cameras, where you have variation from one product to another in terms
of functionality. You then get into less easily quantified values such
as brand, reliability, warranty etc, and things get even more complex
when you take the retailers and their value added options. But I bet you
a top class camera shop selling top of line cameras is impacted by Wally
Market selling the cheapest they can get their hands on. The market is
full of a cross section of buyers, some who will gladly pay top dollar
for quality products from someone who can offer top class customer
service, others who will buy the cheapest thing that takes pictures.

Once you get into much of our work, craft or art, the price you can get
is much more to do with perceived value by the customer, and the size of
their wallet, and the way and place you market it. The $50 hollow vessel
in the farmers market is unlikely to impact the $900 hollow vessel in
the exclusive gallery.

I have customers who buy my work for all sorts of reasons that economics
(at least not the economic level I took) could not compute.

--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toolrest/








  #100   Report Post  
George
 
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"Will" wrote in message
. ..

Sounds like the Canada-USA timber/softwood war in a nutshell.


Wouldn't have been a problem if Canada had one of those folks as PM who
would just jack up the price rather than try and steal the livelihood from
US producers....

Then there are domestic problems as well. After Bubba's lame-duck land grab
shut off a mess of acreage up here, we lost a competitive mill because the
diminished supply of softwood logs could not keep it in production.




  #101   Report Post  
Darrell Feltmate
 
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Just a thought. More than once at a craft sale someone has said to me
"$75.00 for a salad bowl?" "No," I replay, "$74.00 for the time, skill and
the beauty of the wood. $1.00 will get you a salad bowl at the dollar
store." If what I was selling was utility, the dollar store would have me
beat six ways from Sunday.

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com


  #102   Report Post  
Will
 
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George wrote:
"Will" wrote in message
. ..

Sounds like the Canada-USA timber/softwood war in a nutshell.



Wouldn't have been a problem if Canada had one of those folks as PM who
would just jack up the price rather than try and steal the livelihood from
US producers....


George: don't take offense...

Clearly this is not an easy problem...

Because if you think about your reply, I guess you could say that you
and Owen are saying the same thing... Free trade and free pricing --
unless the "home team" is getting hurt. LOL

I think that if the Canadian PM tried to set prices then people would
scream "socialism" -- or "commies under the bed". (Or Fascism or
National Socialism" or something - and probably rightly so... )

It would be even more difficult since virtually all the big companies
selling Canadian Lumber (at high volume) into the US are USA owned and
operated... I doubt they would remain quiet for price regulation. They
find it difficult already -- since they are squarely on both sides of
the issue -- having US ownership and Canadian resource production.

But at the same time you seem top be advocating a "free market" by
requiring minimum prices. Something you railed against earlier.

I say the above not to "call you out" -- just to point out the
difficulties we all face when confronting pricing, copying and
production issues.

Being the low cost producer of a valued product always seems to get the
dogs set on you.

All we can seem to agree on is that there are difficult issues, and we
will _all_ change our minds if the "home team" is the one getting hurt.

I suspect you already knew of the conflicts in your own position and
were smiling while you typed.

Fair enough. :-)

Enough of this... Time for lunch and finish my amateurish shop stool.

Every spindle I turned for the stool was different -- all four. I am
going to claim it is artistry - not a lack of consistency. LOL


Then there are domestic problems as well. After Bubba's lame-duck land grab
shut off a mess of acreage up here, we lost a competitive mill because the
diminished supply of softwood logs could not keep it in production.


We have lots of softwood logs here. Third growth mostly.






--
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
  #103   Report Post  
Ralph
 
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And some provinces only have that damn federal GST.(hope my red neck
ain't showing).

  #104   Report Post  
George
 
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"Will" wrote in message
. ..
George wrote:
"Will" wrote in message
. ..

Sounds like the Canada-USA timber/softwood war in a nutshell.



Wouldn't have been a problem if Canada had one of those folks as PM who
would just jack up the price rather than try and steal the livelihood

from
US producers....


George: don't take offense...

Clearly this is not an easy problem...

Because if you think about your reply, I guess you could say that you
and Owen are saying the same thing... Free trade and free pricing --
unless the "home team" is getting hurt. LOL

I think that if the Canadian PM tried to set prices then people would
scream "socialism" -- or "commies under the bed". (Or Fascism or
National Socialism" or something - and probably rightly so... )

It would be even more difficult since virtually all the big companies
selling Canadian Lumber (at high volume) into the US are USA owned and
operated... I doubt they would remain quiet for price regulation. They
find it difficult already -- since they are squarely on both sides of
the issue -- having US ownership and Canadian resource production.

But at the same time you seem top be advocating a "free market" by
requiring minimum prices. Something you railed against earlier.

I say the above not to "call you out" -- just to point out the
difficulties we all face when confronting pricing, copying and
production issues.

Being the low cost producer of a valued product always seems to get the
dogs set on you.

All we can seem to agree on is that there are difficult issues, and we
will _all_ change our minds if the "home team" is the one getting hurt.

I suspect you already knew of the conflicts in your own position and
were smiling while you typed.

Fair enough. :-)

Enough of this... Time for lunch and finish my amateurish shop stool.

Every spindle I turned for the stool was different -- all four. I am
going to claim it is artistry - not a lack of consistency. LOL


Then there are domestic problems as well. After Bubba's lame-duck land

grab
shut off a mess of acreage up here, we lost a competitive mill because

the
diminished supply of softwood logs could not keep it in production.


We have lots of softwood logs here. Third growth mostly.






--
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com



  #105   Report Post  
George
 
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"Will" wrote in message
. ..
George wrote:
"Will" wrote in message
. ..

Sounds like the Canada-USA timber/softwood war in a nutshell.



Wouldn't have been a problem if Canada had one of those folks as PM who
would just jack up the price rather than try and steal the livelihood

from
US producers....


George: don't take offense...

Clearly this is not an easy problem...

Because if you think about your reply, I guess you could say that you
and Owen are saying the same thing... Free trade and free pricing --
unless the "home team" is getting hurt. LOL

I think that if the Canadian PM tried to set prices then people would
scream "socialism" -- or "commies under the bed". (Or Fascism or
National Socialism" or something - and probably rightly so... )


I guess the ellipses weren't enough of a hint.

It's a joke, which the whole business of paying someone else's living is.

Though, if you think about it, with Canada a metric country, the US might
have a case for plagiarism for imitating the US 2x4.

Untwist yer knickers, that's also meant to be a bit of light humor to put
the foolishness in perspective.





  #106   Report Post  
Martin Rost
 
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"George" george@least wrote in message
...
{SNIP of Economics discourse)
My turning wood arrives at $60 per cord. Some city guy pays half that for

a
single blank, where I get a dozen pieces for the same - more if I use a
coring system. My lathe is an antique, my tools are not the latest alloy,
I'm efficient enough to make the thing within two hours, and my cost of
living and standard of living may be lower as well. Not to mention, the
prospective buyers in this lower wage area are more interested in a bowl
than my name on the bottom. Steak versus sizzle.

Do I charge more because the other guy's costs or desired return is

higher?
Most call that gouging. What if the other guy has a more saleable
signature - s/he's "recognized" as a great turner. If they've got a
monopoly on sizzle, I'm going to have to sell steak, or sell nothing.
Either that, or come September I'm going to be short on tuition, my

shelves
full of unsold stock, which makes it some pretty labor-intensive firewood.

George,
Here you are implying if not saying that you charge based on your costs
and time, and this is what I think Owen was getting at. That your material
cost is lower is fine, but you are covering your cost, same for your cost of
living. While someone did mention an incident about someone being told to
raise their price, I don't think this has been the thrust of this thread.
This topic has sure taken many interesting turns.
Take care
Martin


  #107   Report Post  
Will
 
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George wrote:


I guess the ellipses weren't enough of a hint.

It's a joke, which the whole business of paying someone else's living is.

Though, if you think about it, with Canada a metric country, the US might
have a case for plagiarism for imitating the US 2x4.

Untwist yer knickers, that's also meant to be a bit of light humor to put
the foolishness in perspective.


Wasn't offended. Actually even when you are kidding you make a lot of sense.

Tankin yah too seriously I gess.





--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek
  #108   Report Post  
Lobby Dosser
 
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Owen Lowe wrote:

Well, he inherited a fortune as well as retired from a CEO position with
a Platinum retirement package - he really doesn't care if he ever earns
another dime but he has to find something to do with his time since his
wife prefers the company of the pool boy.



I think I know him!
  #109   Report Post  
Lobby Dosser
 
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Owen Lowe wrote:

Consider
that this phenomenon of wide-spread sharing only goes back 25 years or
so. I have heard and read many times that the turning community appears
to be unique in that successful turners are so willing to give of
themselves so that others may learn. Will imitation to make sales bring
about the demise of the open community?


I believe that the 'give of themselves' to make ends meet - maybe a little
ego massage also. Consider that most painters of the 16th-18th centuries
had loads of pupils (cheap labor) and that many of the pupils went on to
paint in the style of the master. It didn't seem to bring about the demise
of the market, or the system.

When does something become a copy? When does it merely reflect the style of
the master?
  #110   Report Post  
Lobby Dosser
 
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Will wrote:

People who "dabble" in an arts and crafts occupation tend to bring down
the prices.


I'd like to see a real world example of this.


  #111   Report Post  
Lobby Dosser
 
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Owen Lowe wrote:

In article arHWd.41896$uc.15903@trnddc01,
Lobby Dosser wrote:

I suspect not very much at all. Take the $900 vs $100 hollow form.
They are totally different markets. How many $900 items do you see
at the average craft fair? How many $100 items at the average juried
show or upscale gallery? Folks who sell at prices which do not
reflect the time and materials - particularly the time - are not
likely to be doing it for a living and probably not selling very much
at all.

Notice that I left skill out of the equation.. I think that a skilled
and talented turner will know that they are and price accordingly.


Apparently not.

According to Darrell's account, the $100 hollow form imitation *was*
presented in the same market as the $900 original.


That is the fault of the producer of the show, or the owner of the
gallery.

And other than a
signature on the bottom it was indistinguishable from the work of the
known turner.


If it was indistinguishable in design from a neolithic pot, would that
make a difference?

Why should we excuse the non-pro turner who may not rely
on sales for a living and may not price his product in such a way as
to reflect his time, skills and direct expenses?


Going back to the market, why were both pieces in the same place at the
same time? Is that the fault of the non-pro, the pro, or the person
responsible for assembling the work?

Might the
juxtaposition of these two indistinguishable, as to maker, objects
cause the higher priced one to be passed over in favor of the
inexpensive one? (I argued in past posts that the $100 price was
certainly, in my opinion, unrealistically priced too low - while I
suspect the $900 is high though much closer to an accurate return for
the turner's input.)


Let's assume that $100 is too low and $900 is buying the signature. What
if the $100 turner has lower overhead?


Actually your comments bring us right back to the original posting
about plagiarism. Ellsworth's article says (paraphrasing) that copying
someone else's design is a natural desire and should be encouraged as
a learning process. Displaying these things in your personal
surroundings is to be expected. However he draws the line when price
tags are put on the imitations. He says, "... copying for the purpose
of learning can become a tool for self-discovery. Copying for profit
is simply a way of stealing another person's voice and using it as if
it were our own."


When is it a copy and when is it in the stle of?

The pieces I'm excited about making for the future take me a lot of
time. Upwards of 18-20 hours - i.e. half a week. I don't see the time
coming down a whole lot as experience with the process grows. I plan
on being paid fairly for my design, turning and finishing skills - as
well as being able to purchase new tools, supplies, covering sales
costs, etc. I'm going to be ****ed off when someone who works outside
turning makes his imitations in the evenings over several weeks and
sells them for 20% of what I know is a reasonable price. Almost makes
me want to hoard the design and protect what I've created from
imitators who could care less that they are taking from me.


  #112   Report Post  
Lobby Dosser
 
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Will wrote:

Their work is usually "good" but not "great". Since that is the majority
of the crafts market -- that is probably how the pricing is set.



Is Ellsworth in the crafts market?

See my reply to Owen why were the two pieces in the same show?
  #113   Report Post  
Will
 
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Lobby Dosser wrote:
Will wrote:


People who "dabble" in an arts and crafts occupation tend to bring down
the prices.



I'd like to see a real world example of this.


I guess I have see this at craft shows too numerous to be bothered
mentioning. Work that is good -- but not great. Which then makes the
buyers wonder what they are getting. They then typically do not buy the
higher priced goods and haggle over what they do buy.. Seen it for the
last several years when I have attended shows as a buyer.

So unless we have attended the same shows in Southern Ontario and seen
the same things reciting incidents (so we could compare notes on what
the incidents really meant) would be pointless.

Speaking from personal observation though...

Have sold high ticket items before though -- so am used to "reading the
buyer".

Hope that makes sense.

But enough on this thread -- we have beaten it to death I think.

--
Will R.
Jewel Boxes and Wood Art
http://woodwork.pmccl.com
  #114   Report Post  
Owen Lowe
 
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In article ,
Will wrote:

The are you going to charge $2000 a piece? Or will the market not bear
the "real" selling price?

Will you have to sell them for $200 -- just to get a buyer?


I plan on pricing them about $650 - which works out to about $20/hr.
once other expenses are taken. As to the market acceptance, I don't know
yet. I did consult with a few other turners more experienced with
selling than me - but if they don't sell, I'll be more than happy and
proud to keep them on my own shelf.

--
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long
  #115   Report Post  
Owen Lowe
 
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In article , "George" george@least
wrote:

Unless your governing body is exceptionally generous, you _must_ collect and
pay sales tax, except on one-time sales of personal property. You don't
have to have an EIN to pay tax in my state, they take it based on SSAN.


When I was in business in Arizona, the state didn't care whether the
buyer paid sales tax or not - only that the seller submitted the proper
amount to the state. Most businesses pass the tax along to the customer
as an itemized part of the transaction, but that wasn't any state
requirement.

After a particularly busy feeding frenzy of purchasers a few years back, I
started rolling taxes into my prices and rounding to the quarter (favoring
me, of course). If I hadn't, my daughter suggested she would never help me
sell again. Since I enjoy shooting the breeze with other wood lovers more
than making change and bagging, I took her advice.


Keeping taxes separate, unless the taxing body requires it, is one of
those mental games retailers use to appear less expensive than the
competition. Instead of rolling the tax into the price, which would
amount to the same out of pocket to the consumer, the retailer keeps it
separate in order to play with appearances. I don't see woodturners
losing customers by rolling taxes in since crafts aren't generally the
commodity that manufactured goods are.

--
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long


  #116   Report Post  
Owen Lowe
 
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In article , "George" george@least
wrote:

So I'm not in competition with that recognized turner at all. I can't
compete. What I charge for steak in no way affects the price of sizzle. If
my piece happens to resemble his - well, as we know, an infinite number of
monkeys like me will eventually produce pieces that look like someone
else's. Of course, they make things that look like mine, too.


I believe you are in competition no matter where you chose to sell your
items if you copy, imitate, duplicate, or pattern after the work of
another turner. Now, just to be sure I don't bring on the flame posts
about our indebtedness, with respect to shapes, to the ancient Greeks or
the Chinese artisans of the Ming dynasty, I'm specifically speaking of
artistic treatments such as Vesery's feathers or William Hunter's
skeletal forms. It is my view that if one imitates the work of another
with the intent to profit then it is indeed in competition as well as
unethical.

Honestly, I just can not fathom this resistance to respecting another's
creative efforts or the tone that, what's put out for all to see is fair
game for all to take for whatever amount they can profit from it. I
think it's wrong, I think it hurts the creative spirit in those
producing the work and I think it hinders the creativity within the very
people who feel more at ease using another's ideas rather than coming up
with their own.

--
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long
  #117   Report Post  
Owen Lowe
 
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In article ,
"Michael Lehmann" wrote:

Unfortunately there will always be dogs who will try to make money on
someone else's back.


Way of the world through history I guess.

What about saueracker shells?


I put off replying for a few days because I wanted to look this up.
Finally got around to Google it but came up pretty empty - I think.
Saueracker appears as a last name very frequently but I couldn't find
anything to do with shells or turning... Did the meaning of your
question zoom right over my head - is the yoke on me?

--
"Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised
as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long
  #118   Report Post  
Michael Lehmann
 
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From Mike Darlow Woodturning methods.
IEH Saueracker was an outstanding ornamental turner died 1942 aged 87.
(German)
It requires the workpiece to be turned on a large number of different, but
parrallel axes. "

That went on for way too long. and I dont understand it well enough to
explain quickly, I have a pic if your interested (just remove the asterisk),
but you would probably see it and say ,"ah those"

I found it looking up eccentric turning 6 months ago and cant find it again.

Mick


  #119   Report Post  
George
 
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"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message
news:MJsXd.57911$EL5.51102@trnddc05...
Will wrote:

People who "dabble" in an arts and crafts occupation tend to bring down
the prices.


I'd like to see a real world example of this.


It isn't a factor. Most shows I attend have three-four turners.
Unfortunately, there's always one slumming because s/he got juried out of
another that weekend. They're the ones who complain about the taste of the
people attending, the other turners' work, and maybe favor you with a "you
can't make ornaments like this for that money" comment. They're also the
ones, who, if they sold one of the partially hollowed and freshly waxed
(only) pieces of burl they have, would gain as much as I get from three
bowls.

I'd rather have three times the fun at the lathe.


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