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Woodturning (rec.crafts.woodturning) To discuss tools, techniques, styles, materials, shows and competitions, education and educational materials related to woodturning. All skill levels are welcome, from art turners to production turners, beginners to masters. |
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#81
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In article ,
Will wrote: Was that enough? Plenty. Thank you for taking the time to remind me of all the other things to consider with selling. -- "Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long |
#82
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In article arHWd.41896$uc.15903@trnddc01,
Lobby Dosser wrote: I suspect not very much at all. Take the $900 vs $100 hollow form. They are totally different markets. How many $900 items do you see at the average craft fair? How many $100 items at the average juried show or upscale gallery? Folks who sell at prices which do not reflect the time and materials - particularly the time - are not likely to be doing it for a living and probably not selling very much at all. Notice that I left skill out of the equation.. I think that a skilled and talented turner will know that they are and price accordingly. Apparently not. According to Darrell's account, the $100 hollow form imitation *was* presented in the same market as the $900 original. And other than a signature on the bottom it was indistinguishable from the work of the known turner. Why should we excuse the non-pro turner who may not rely on sales for a living and may not price his product in such a way as to reflect his time, skills and direct expenses? Might the juxtaposition of these two indistinguishable, as to maker, objects cause the higher priced one to be passed over in favor of the inexpensive one? (I argued in past posts that the $100 price was certainly, in my opinion, unrealistically priced too low - while I suspect the $900 is high though much closer to an accurate return for the turner's input.) Actually your comments bring us right back to the original posting about plagiarism. Ellsworth's article says (paraphrasing) that copying someone else's design is a natural desire and should be encouraged as a learning process. Displaying these things in your personal surroundings is to be expected. However he draws the line when price tags are put on the imitations. He says, "... copying for the purpose of learning can become a tool for self-discovery. Copying for profit is simply a way of stealing another person's voice and using it as if it were our own." The pieces I'm excited about making for the future take me a lot of time. Upwards of 18-20 hours - i.e. half a week. I don't see the time coming down a whole lot as experience with the process grows. I plan on being paid fairly for my design, turning and finishing skills - as well as being able to purchase new tools, supplies, covering sales costs, etc. I'm going to be ****ed off when someone who works outside turning makes his imitations in the evenings over several weeks and sells them for 20% of what I know is a reasonable price. Almost makes me want to hoard the design and protect what I've created from imitators who could care less that they are taking from me. -- "Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long |
#83
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"Will" wrote in message . .. George wrote: "Martin Rost" rostmartin @ hot mail . com wrote in message ... Doesn't socialism also support subsidies. That is what I see Owen arguing against. Many turners subsidize their turning sales with their day job income. Martin Fixed prices are not "subsidies?" Of course we will all assume, with Owen's optimism, that they will be fixed higher, not lower. Are duties fixed by the state "subsidies" then? Countervailing duties, import taxes etc? Yep, that's what they're supposed to do - limit competition and/or favor the home team. Soviets had a solution to that as well. Non-convertible currency. In order to buy a foreign product, you had to be eligible to do so, and pay in convertible currency. |
#84
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Owen Lowe wrote:
As long as they declare their income, I don't mind competition of that nature. What do you mean by declaring their income? Taxes? Yes. Income taxes and sales, taxes where required by law. It's very easy to turn a hobby like turning into an income generator, but when it grows beyond selling to friends and relatives, my ethics tell me I should pay my dues. The sales tax is probably the most visible issue. Every show I do (which thankfully isn't many) I get customers complaining about having to pay sales tax, or point blank refusing. I'm sure that most people who have to collect this do so, but the craft show circuit I am into is full of part-timers who don't sell enough to have to register. -- Derek Andrews, woodturner http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com http://chipshop.blogspot.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toolrest/ |
#85
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Derek Andrews wrote: Owen Lowe wrote: As long as they declare their income, I don't mind competition of that nature. What do you mean by declaring their income? Taxes? Yes. Income taxes and sales, taxes where required by law. It's very easy to turn a hobby like turning into an income generator, but when it grows beyond selling to friends and relatives, my ethics tell me I should pay my dues. That could make you unusual. (Not a criticism nor praise -- just an observation.) The sales tax is probably the most visible issue. Every show I do (which thankfully isn't many) I get customers complaining about having to pay sales tax, or point blank refusing. Then price them "taxes-in" and keep your thoughts to yourself on the issue. It's easy to work the calculation backwards and submit the required taxes. (I was going to say "appropriate" not required - but we know how much "appropriate" is in this case.) This is done all the time in these "sensitive" markets. I'm sure that most people who have to collect this do so, but the craft show circuit I am into is full of part-timers who don't sell enough to have to register. Derek: Is it possible to move up-market? Are you restricted by a combination of time, geography and cost? Best wishes. Nice web site. -- Will Occasional Techno-geek |
#86
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George wrote: "Will" wrote in message . .. George wrote: "Martin Rost" rostmartin @ hot mail . com wrote in message ... Doesn't socialism also support subsidies. That is what I see Owen arguing against. Many turners subsidize their turning sales with their day job income. Martin Fixed prices are not "subsidies?" Of course we will all assume, with Owen's optimism, that they will be fixed higher, not lower. Are duties fixed by the state "subsidies" then? Countervailing duties, import taxes etc? Yep, that's what they're supposed to do - limit competition and/or favor the home team. A rare understanding there. Many people never get that! LOL Soviets had a solution to that as well. THE USA government has the their solutions too I guess. Protracted legal suits and "anti-dumping" duties I guess. Non-convertible currency. In order to buy a foreign product, you had to be eligible to do so, and pay in convertible currency. Guess we should go back on the gold standard. -- Will Occasional Techno-geek |
#87
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Owen Lowe wrote: In article arHWd.41896$uc.15903@trnddc01, Lobby Dosser wrote: The pieces I'm excited about making for the future take me a lot of time. Upwards of 18-20 hours - i.e. half a week. I don't see the time coming down a whole lot as experience with the process grows. I plan on being paid fairly for my design, turning and finishing skills - as well as being able to purchase new tools, supplies, covering sales costs, etc. I'm going to be ****ed off when someone who works outside turning makes his imitations in the evenings over several weeks and sells them for 20% of what I know is a reasonable price. Almost makes me want to hoard the design and protect what I've created from imitators who could care less that they are taking from me. The are you going to charge $2000 a piece? Or will the market not bear the "real" selling price? Will you have to sell them for $200 -- just to get a buyer? -- Will Occasional Techno-geek |
#88
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Owen:
Not intended for specifically you. Did the list as much for myself as anything - just a quick reminder in Marketing 101. :-) However, if everyone thought of all those costs and "jobs" then we would have fewer people selling - because it costs money to sell and many people "subsidize" each piece sold by using their "real income" to produce and sell the pieces they make. People who "dabble" in an arts and crafts occupation tend to bring down the prices. People who dabble in the real estate market (or stocks) -- by contrast -- tend to raise the prices -- and cause a boom and bust mentality. Their practice of "dabbling" in crafts production cuts into your income -- by perpetuating a long-term "bust market" in crafts. Think of it this way. If you are selling a house, the market is normally controlled by the lowest price house on the street. If you have a $1 million home on a "$150,000 house" street. It is very tough to sell at your price - maybe impossible. A $155K house will sell easily. A new low -- is a new high. Owen Lowe wrote: In article , Will wrote: Was that enough? Plenty. Thank you for taking the time to remind me of all the other things to consider with selling. -- Will Occasional Techno-geek |
#89
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Lobby Dosser wrote: I think everyone 'accepts' the premise. I don't think some of us believe that a turner who does not price effectively has much effect on the market. If that turner is full time, they will not last. If they are part time, they will not be making much product. You don't have to make a lot of product to depress the market. You don't even have to sell it. You just have to make a low value product and offer it. That is usually enough to encourage people to buy neither. Think about the mechanism. Good horses usually win by a "nose". Same with any good work. Most good work is "a little bit better in all the details" -- apparently to the consumer. So -- if you were buying a work and there were $100 pieces and $900 pieces -- very similar except the more expensive piece was a bit better in all the respects -- actually making a much better piece in reality. Would you wait to see if the expensive piece were lowered in price? Bet you would. If you were the seller -- would you eventually cave-in on your price? Probably. The lower price is usually set by somebody wanting to pay for their lathe (saw or whatever) and their supplies. Their work is usually "good" but not "great". Since that is the majority of the crafts market -- that is probably how the pricing is set. This was pretty terse. The explanation should take a lot more care -- but I have a stool to make today since I decide not to go to the PDAC except for the last day - tomorrow. Let the younger folks stand around all day. :-) -- Will Occasional Techno-geek |
#90
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Will wrote:
That could make you unusual. (Not a criticism nor praise -- just an observation.) I didn't say I like paying taxes Then price them "taxes-in" and keep your thoughts to yourself on the issue. It's easy to work the calculation backwards and submit the required taxes. (I was going to say "appropriate" not required - but we know how much "appropriate" is in this case.) This is done all the time in these "sensitive" markets. It is always at the back of my mind to do this, but it introduces the problems of increasing ticket price and creating a disparity in inline and offline price structures. Maybe next time I review my costs and pricing structure I will bite the bullet. When the tax structure in this province was changed a few years back, the original intention was to use tax inclusive pricing, but it met with a lot of opposition from the 'retail giant' lobby and our spineless politicians backed down. I believe it would have been much better for the consumer. I much prefer the way VAT is implemented in the UK. Is it possible to move up-market? Are you restricted by a combination of time, geography and cost? Most of those factors are a problem. The nearest decent shows would require overnight stays, so that immediately ups the capital cost of doing a show, not to mention the much higher booth fees. I would also need a new booth and lots more stock than I ever have at that time of year. That in turn would require a larger vehicle to get it all there. Maybe one day, but on the other hand my dream is to be able to drop shows from my marketing mix altogether Derek Andrews, woodturner http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com http://chipshop.blogspot.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toolrest/ |
#91
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Will wrote:
THE USA government has the their solutions too I guess. I wouldn't put it past them to have been slipping BSE infected feed to Canadian cattle, or blighting our spuds, or...... Any excuse to close the border. -- Derek Andrews, woodturner http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com http://chipshop.blogspot.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toolrest/ |
#92
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Derek Andrews wrote:
Will wrote: THE USA government has their solutions too I guess. I wouldn't put it past them to have been slipping BSE infected feed to Canadian cattle, or blighting our spuds, or...... Any excuse to close the border. Yeah! It time we put "our guys" along the border to guard it properly. Get them to polish up their Lee Enfields, get a couple of Sopwiths to patrol the land border and a couple of those Surplus DUKWS to patrol the river borders. That otta stop-em-cold-in-their-tracks. LOL No more spud infecting so-called tourists gonna get in here... ROTFLMAO -- Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art http://woodwork.pmccl.com |
#93
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Derek Andrews wrote:
Will wrote: Most of those factors are a problem. The nearest decent shows would require overnight stays, so that immediately ups the capital cost of doing a show, not to mention the much higher booth fees. I would also need a new booth and lots more stock than I ever have at that time of year. That in turn would require a larger vehicle to get it all there. Maybe one day, but on the other hand my dream is to be able to drop shows from my marketing mix altogether Derek Andrews, woodturner http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com http://chipshop.blogspot.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toolrest/ Maybe you should consider doing the shows with someone who does related work. Turner and a small furniture maker together etc. or something... I have been thinking about finding a craft jeweler to work the shows together. (When I start.) Used these tactics before in volume marketing. Always having stuff that related to the main sale. That way you could sell on the "real or perceived" issue -- since you had all the pieces... -- Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art http://woodwork.pmccl.com |
#94
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"Will" wrote in message . .. Yep, that's what they're supposed to do - limit competition and/or favor the home team. A rare understanding there. Many people never get that! LOL Soviets had a solution to that as well. THE USA government has the their solutions too I guess. Protracted legal suits and "anti-dumping" duties I guess. Non-convertible currency. In order to buy a foreign product, you had to be eligible to do so, and pay in convertible currency. Guess we should go back on the gold standard. Swing and a miss. There is more to trade economics than that. Lets talk steak first, then sizzle. Argentina produces steak at a lower cost than a Nebraska producer because it has lower cost of production, or export subsidy, or might even be "dumping," which is selling below even its low cost of production because getting something keeps its producers in business instead of falling into whatever social safety net they might have - presumably at a higher social cost than the anticipated loss from selling below cost of production. Then there are other considerations, like creating a demand which will be fulfilled later at a higher price. Won't even go into balance-of-payments considerations where selling for a more universally accepted currency will buy things their money won't. So much for a 12 oz T-bone, which should not be considered as merely 12 oz of high-grade protein. Now we try to sell the sizzle. It can be as simple as Bonanza versus the ambience of your favorite steak house, or we can vigorously promote the piece as tastier because it's Angus rather than whiteface, more patriotic because it's locally produced, environmentally friendly, or perhaps it's "signature" beef which has received a testimonial from some gourmand. This touches on the subject of this thread - is there some definable "value" beyond 12 oz of meat or a 14" ash bowl? Simple answer, there is if the prospective buyer thinks there is. My turning wood arrives at $60 per cord. Some city guy pays half that for a single blank, where I get a dozen pieces for the same - more if I use a coring system. My lathe is an antique, my tools are not the latest alloy, I'm efficient enough to make the thing within two hours, and my cost of living and standard of living may be lower as well. Not to mention, the prospective buyers in this lower wage area are more interested in a bowl than my name on the bottom. Steak versus sizzle. Do I charge more because the other guy's costs or desired return is higher? Most call that gouging. What if the other guy has a more saleable signature - s/he's "recognized" as a great turner. If they've got a monopoly on sizzle, I'm going to have to sell steak, or sell nothing. Either that, or come September I'm going to be short on tuition, my shelves full of unsold stock, which makes it some pretty labor-intensive firewood. So I'm not in competition with that recognized turner at all. I can't compete. What I charge for steak in no way affects the price of sizzle. If my piece happens to resemble his - well, as we know, an infinite number of monkeys like me will eventually produce pieces that look like someone else's. Of course, they make things that look like mine, too. |
#95
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"Derek Andrews" wrote in message ... The sales tax is probably the most visible issue. Every show I do (which thankfully isn't many) I get customers complaining about having to pay sales tax, or point blank refusing. I'm sure that most people who have to collect this do so, but the craft show circuit I am into is full of part-timers who don't sell enough to have to register. Unless your governing body is exceptionally generous, you _must_ collect and pay sales tax, except on one-time sales of personal property. You don't have to have an EIN to pay tax in my state, they take it based on SSAN. After a particularly busy feeding frenzy of purchasers a few years back, I started rolling taxes into my prices and rounding to the quarter (favoring me, of course). If I hadn't, my daughter suggested she would never help me sell again. Since I enjoy shooting the breeze with other wood lovers more than making change and bagging, I took her advice. |
#96
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George wrote:
"Will" wrote in message . .. Yep, that's what they're supposed to do - limit competition and/or favor the home team. A rare understanding there. Many people never get that! LOL Soviets had a solution to that as well. THE USA government has the their solutions too I guess. Protracted legal suits and "anti-dumping" duties I guess. Non-convertible currency. In order to buy a foreign product, you had to be eligible to do so, and pay in convertible currency. Guess we should go back on the gold standard. Swing and a miss. There is more to trade economics than that. Lets talk steak first, then sizzle. Argentina produces steak at a lower cost than a Nebraska producer because it has lower cost of production, or export subsidy, or might even be "dumping," which is selling below even its low cost of production because getting something keeps its producers in business instead of falling into whatever social safety net they might have - presumably at a higher social cost than the anticipated loss from selling below cost of production. Then there are other considerations, like creating a demand which will be fulfilled later at a higher price. Won't even go into balance-of-payments considerations where selling for a more universally accepted currency will buy things their money won't. So much for a 12 oz T-bone, which should not be considered as merely 12 oz of high-grade protein. Now we try to sell the sizzle. It can be as simple as Bonanza versus the ambience of your favorite steak house, or we can vigorously promote the piece as tastier because it's Angus rather than whiteface, more patriotic because it's locally produced, environmentally friendly, or perhaps it's "signature" beef which has received a testimonial from some gourmand. This touches on the subject of this thread - is there some definable "value" beyond 12 oz of meat or a 14" ash bowl? Simple answer, there is if the prospective buyer thinks there is. My turning wood arrives at $60 per cord. Some city guy pays half that for a single blank, where I get a dozen pieces for the same - more if I use a coring system. My lathe is an antique, my tools are not the latest alloy, I'm efficient enough to make the thing within two hours, and my cost of living and standard of living may be lower as well. Not to mention, the prospective buyers in this lower wage area are more interested in a bowl than my name on the bottom. Steak versus sizzle. Do I charge more because the other guy's costs or desired return is higher? Most call that gouging. What if the other guy has a more saleable signature - s/he's "recognized" as a great turner. If they've got a monopoly on sizzle, I'm going to have to sell steak, or sell nothing. Either that, or come September I'm going to be short on tuition, my shelves full of unsold stock, which makes it some pretty labor-intensive firewood. So I'm not in competition with that recognized turner at all. I can't compete. What I charge for steak in no way affects the price of sizzle. If my piece happens to resemble his - well, as we know, an infinite number of monkeys like me will eventually produce pieces that look like someone else's. Of course, they make things that look like mine, too. I think we are pretty much in agreement. What you said lays out the issues and offers not too much in the way of a universal solution. Mainly because there is none. Sounds like the Canada-USA timber/softwood war in a nutshell. You seem to have a better understanding than some International Negotiators and Legal Experts I have run into. I will leave it at that. PS: Run for President. They could use you. (No humour intended) Best wishes. Sell lots of bowls. Liked your web site btw. Will use your techniques for some of my turnings. (No I won't send you a royalty -- just think of you. :-) ) -- Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art http://woodwork.pmccl.com |
#97
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George
I like your comments on "steak and sizzle." I used to live within ten minutes of a professional turner. I was turning craft (I like to think high quality craft, but craft none the less) and he was turning art. Both of us overlapped a fair bit. We were also good friends and still are. I would turn a salad bowl similar to one of his. Mine sold for $75.00 and his for $200.00. Part of his "sizzle" was his reputation, well earned and enjoyed. Collectors bought his work more so than did the casual buyer. They bought mine. We sold in the same place and in fact he had some of my turnings in his gallery. No conflict there. On the other hand, there was a regional pricing of most things as a starting price. No collusion, no price fixing, just a thought of what a piece of a certain type should bring. Part of the gentleman's agreement was to keep people like me, a hobby turner, from affecting the income of the pros. On the other hand, there was another turner in the area trying to become pro. Both my friend and I helped him with technique and such. I had a vase for sale at about $80.00, my pro friend had a similar one for sale at $300.00, the new guy had a similar one for sale at $260.00. The pro sold his first as I recall, I sold mine second, and as far as I know the new guy still has his after these years. He needed more sizzle to justify the extra cost. -- God bless and safe turning Darrell Feltmate Truro, NS Canada www.aroundthewoods.com |
#98
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George wrote:
Unless your governing body is exceptionally generous, you _must_ collect and pay sales tax, except on one-time sales of personal property. Unfortunately our governments likes to make things as complicated as they possibly can, so they have implemented a ceiling below which registration is optional. They have simplified the system somewhat by combining federal and provincial taxes into one entity, but only in three provinces. Fun eh? -- Derek Andrews, woodturner http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com http://chipshop.blogspot.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toolrest/ |
#99
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Darrell Feltmate wrote:
George I like your comments on "steak and sizzle." I think you have hit it on the head. I think many of the economic theories can only be applied to commodities. You can't sell a barrel of oil for anything much other than the current global price for oil. Things change a bit when you get into consumer commodites, say digital cameras, where you have variation from one product to another in terms of functionality. You then get into less easily quantified values such as brand, reliability, warranty etc, and things get even more complex when you take the retailers and their value added options. But I bet you a top class camera shop selling top of line cameras is impacted by Wally Market selling the cheapest they can get their hands on. The market is full of a cross section of buyers, some who will gladly pay top dollar for quality products from someone who can offer top class customer service, others who will buy the cheapest thing that takes pictures. Once you get into much of our work, craft or art, the price you can get is much more to do with perceived value by the customer, and the size of their wallet, and the way and place you market it. The $50 hollow vessel in the farmers market is unlikely to impact the $900 hollow vessel in the exclusive gallery. I have customers who buy my work for all sorts of reasons that economics (at least not the economic level I took) could not compute. -- Derek Andrews, woodturner http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com http://chipshop.blogspot.com http://groups.yahoo.com/group/toolrest/ |
#100
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"Will" wrote in message . .. Sounds like the Canada-USA timber/softwood war in a nutshell. Wouldn't have been a problem if Canada had one of those folks as PM who would just jack up the price rather than try and steal the livelihood from US producers.... Then there are domestic problems as well. After Bubba's lame-duck land grab shut off a mess of acreage up here, we lost a competitive mill because the diminished supply of softwood logs could not keep it in production. |
#101
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Just a thought. More than once at a craft sale someone has said to me
"$75.00 for a salad bowl?" "No," I replay, "$74.00 for the time, skill and the beauty of the wood. $1.00 will get you a salad bowl at the dollar store." If what I was selling was utility, the dollar store would have me beat six ways from Sunday. -- God bless and safe turning Darrell Feltmate Truro, NS Canada www.aroundthewoods.com |
#102
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George wrote:
"Will" wrote in message . .. Sounds like the Canada-USA timber/softwood war in a nutshell. Wouldn't have been a problem if Canada had one of those folks as PM who would just jack up the price rather than try and steal the livelihood from US producers.... George: don't take offense... Clearly this is not an easy problem... Because if you think about your reply, I guess you could say that you and Owen are saying the same thing... Free trade and free pricing -- unless the "home team" is getting hurt. LOL I think that if the Canadian PM tried to set prices then people would scream "socialism" -- or "commies under the bed". (Or Fascism or National Socialism" or something - and probably rightly so... ) It would be even more difficult since virtually all the big companies selling Canadian Lumber (at high volume) into the US are USA owned and operated... I doubt they would remain quiet for price regulation. They find it difficult already -- since they are squarely on both sides of the issue -- having US ownership and Canadian resource production. But at the same time you seem top be advocating a "free market" by requiring minimum prices. Something you railed against earlier. I say the above not to "call you out" -- just to point out the difficulties we all face when confronting pricing, copying and production issues. Being the low cost producer of a valued product always seems to get the dogs set on you. All we can seem to agree on is that there are difficult issues, and we will _all_ change our minds if the "home team" is the one getting hurt. I suspect you already knew of the conflicts in your own position and were smiling while you typed. Fair enough. :-) Enough of this... Time for lunch and finish my amateurish shop stool. Every spindle I turned for the stool was different -- all four. I am going to claim it is artistry - not a lack of consistency. LOL Then there are domestic problems as well. After Bubba's lame-duck land grab shut off a mess of acreage up here, we lost a competitive mill because the diminished supply of softwood logs could not keep it in production. We have lots of softwood logs here. Third growth mostly. -- Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art http://woodwork.pmccl.com |
#103
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And some provinces only have that damn federal GST.(hope my red neck
ain't showing). |
#104
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"Will" wrote in message . .. George wrote: "Will" wrote in message . .. Sounds like the Canada-USA timber/softwood war in a nutshell. Wouldn't have been a problem if Canada had one of those folks as PM who would just jack up the price rather than try and steal the livelihood from US producers.... George: don't take offense... Clearly this is not an easy problem... Because if you think about your reply, I guess you could say that you and Owen are saying the same thing... Free trade and free pricing -- unless the "home team" is getting hurt. LOL I think that if the Canadian PM tried to set prices then people would scream "socialism" -- or "commies under the bed". (Or Fascism or National Socialism" or something - and probably rightly so... ) It would be even more difficult since virtually all the big companies selling Canadian Lumber (at high volume) into the US are USA owned and operated... I doubt they would remain quiet for price regulation. They find it difficult already -- since they are squarely on both sides of the issue -- having US ownership and Canadian resource production. But at the same time you seem top be advocating a "free market" by requiring minimum prices. Something you railed against earlier. I say the above not to "call you out" -- just to point out the difficulties we all face when confronting pricing, copying and production issues. Being the low cost producer of a valued product always seems to get the dogs set on you. All we can seem to agree on is that there are difficult issues, and we will _all_ change our minds if the "home team" is the one getting hurt. I suspect you already knew of the conflicts in your own position and were smiling while you typed. Fair enough. :-) Enough of this... Time for lunch and finish my amateurish shop stool. Every spindle I turned for the stool was different -- all four. I am going to claim it is artistry - not a lack of consistency. LOL Then there are domestic problems as well. After Bubba's lame-duck land grab shut off a mess of acreage up here, we lost a competitive mill because the diminished supply of softwood logs could not keep it in production. We have lots of softwood logs here. Third growth mostly. -- Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art http://woodwork.pmccl.com |
#105
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"Will" wrote in message . .. George wrote: "Will" wrote in message . .. Sounds like the Canada-USA timber/softwood war in a nutshell. Wouldn't have been a problem if Canada had one of those folks as PM who would just jack up the price rather than try and steal the livelihood from US producers.... George: don't take offense... Clearly this is not an easy problem... Because if you think about your reply, I guess you could say that you and Owen are saying the same thing... Free trade and free pricing -- unless the "home team" is getting hurt. LOL I think that if the Canadian PM tried to set prices then people would scream "socialism" -- or "commies under the bed". (Or Fascism or National Socialism" or something - and probably rightly so... ) I guess the ellipses weren't enough of a hint. It's a joke, which the whole business of paying someone else's living is. Though, if you think about it, with Canada a metric country, the US might have a case for plagiarism for imitating the US 2x4. Untwist yer knickers, that's also meant to be a bit of light humor to put the foolishness in perspective. |
#106
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"George" george@least wrote in message ... {SNIP of Economics discourse) My turning wood arrives at $60 per cord. Some city guy pays half that for a single blank, where I get a dozen pieces for the same - more if I use a coring system. My lathe is an antique, my tools are not the latest alloy, I'm efficient enough to make the thing within two hours, and my cost of living and standard of living may be lower as well. Not to mention, the prospective buyers in this lower wage area are more interested in a bowl than my name on the bottom. Steak versus sizzle. Do I charge more because the other guy's costs or desired return is higher? Most call that gouging. What if the other guy has a more saleable signature - s/he's "recognized" as a great turner. If they've got a monopoly on sizzle, I'm going to have to sell steak, or sell nothing. Either that, or come September I'm going to be short on tuition, my shelves full of unsold stock, which makes it some pretty labor-intensive firewood. George, Here you are implying if not saying that you charge based on your costs and time, and this is what I think Owen was getting at. That your material cost is lower is fine, but you are covering your cost, same for your cost of living. While someone did mention an incident about someone being told to raise their price, I don't think this has been the thrust of this thread. This topic has sure taken many interesting turns. Take care Martin |
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George wrote: I guess the ellipses weren't enough of a hint. It's a joke, which the whole business of paying someone else's living is. Though, if you think about it, with Canada a metric country, the US might have a case for plagiarism for imitating the US 2x4. Untwist yer knickers, that's also meant to be a bit of light humor to put the foolishness in perspective. Wasn't offended. Actually even when you are kidding you make a lot of sense. Tankin yah too seriously I gess. -- Will Occasional Techno-geek |
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Owen Lowe wrote:
Well, he inherited a fortune as well as retired from a CEO position with a Platinum retirement package - he really doesn't care if he ever earns another dime but he has to find something to do with his time since his wife prefers the company of the pool boy. I think I know him! |
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Owen Lowe wrote:
Consider that this phenomenon of wide-spread sharing only goes back 25 years or so. I have heard and read many times that the turning community appears to be unique in that successful turners are so willing to give of themselves so that others may learn. Will imitation to make sales bring about the demise of the open community? I believe that the 'give of themselves' to make ends meet - maybe a little ego massage also. Consider that most painters of the 16th-18th centuries had loads of pupils (cheap labor) and that many of the pupils went on to paint in the style of the master. It didn't seem to bring about the demise of the market, or the system. When does something become a copy? When does it merely reflect the style of the master? |
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Will wrote:
People who "dabble" in an arts and crafts occupation tend to bring down the prices. I'd like to see a real world example of this. |
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Owen Lowe wrote:
In article arHWd.41896$uc.15903@trnddc01, Lobby Dosser wrote: I suspect not very much at all. Take the $900 vs $100 hollow form. They are totally different markets. How many $900 items do you see at the average craft fair? How many $100 items at the average juried show or upscale gallery? Folks who sell at prices which do not reflect the time and materials - particularly the time - are not likely to be doing it for a living and probably not selling very much at all. Notice that I left skill out of the equation.. I think that a skilled and talented turner will know that they are and price accordingly. Apparently not. According to Darrell's account, the $100 hollow form imitation *was* presented in the same market as the $900 original. That is the fault of the producer of the show, or the owner of the gallery. And other than a signature on the bottom it was indistinguishable from the work of the known turner. If it was indistinguishable in design from a neolithic pot, would that make a difference? Why should we excuse the non-pro turner who may not rely on sales for a living and may not price his product in such a way as to reflect his time, skills and direct expenses? Going back to the market, why were both pieces in the same place at the same time? Is that the fault of the non-pro, the pro, or the person responsible for assembling the work? Might the juxtaposition of these two indistinguishable, as to maker, objects cause the higher priced one to be passed over in favor of the inexpensive one? (I argued in past posts that the $100 price was certainly, in my opinion, unrealistically priced too low - while I suspect the $900 is high though much closer to an accurate return for the turner's input.) Let's assume that $100 is too low and $900 is buying the signature. What if the $100 turner has lower overhead? Actually your comments bring us right back to the original posting about plagiarism. Ellsworth's article says (paraphrasing) that copying someone else's design is a natural desire and should be encouraged as a learning process. Displaying these things in your personal surroundings is to be expected. However he draws the line when price tags are put on the imitations. He says, "... copying for the purpose of learning can become a tool for self-discovery. Copying for profit is simply a way of stealing another person's voice and using it as if it were our own." When is it a copy and when is it in the stle of? The pieces I'm excited about making for the future take me a lot of time. Upwards of 18-20 hours - i.e. half a week. I don't see the time coming down a whole lot as experience with the process grows. I plan on being paid fairly for my design, turning and finishing skills - as well as being able to purchase new tools, supplies, covering sales costs, etc. I'm going to be ****ed off when someone who works outside turning makes his imitations in the evenings over several weeks and sells them for 20% of what I know is a reasonable price. Almost makes me want to hoard the design and protect what I've created from imitators who could care less that they are taking from me. |
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Will wrote:
Their work is usually "good" but not "great". Since that is the majority of the crafts market -- that is probably how the pricing is set. Is Ellsworth in the crafts market? See my reply to Owen why were the two pieces in the same show? |
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Lobby Dosser wrote:
Will wrote: People who "dabble" in an arts and crafts occupation tend to bring down the prices. I'd like to see a real world example of this. I guess I have see this at craft shows too numerous to be bothered mentioning. Work that is good -- but not great. Which then makes the buyers wonder what they are getting. They then typically do not buy the higher priced goods and haggle over what they do buy.. Seen it for the last several years when I have attended shows as a buyer. So unless we have attended the same shows in Southern Ontario and seen the same things reciting incidents (so we could compare notes on what the incidents really meant) would be pointless. Speaking from personal observation though... Have sold high ticket items before though -- so am used to "reading the buyer". Hope that makes sense. But enough on this thread -- we have beaten it to death I think. -- Will R. Jewel Boxes and Wood Art http://woodwork.pmccl.com |
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In article ,
Will wrote: The are you going to charge $2000 a piece? Or will the market not bear the "real" selling price? Will you have to sell them for $200 -- just to get a buyer? I plan on pricing them about $650 - which works out to about $20/hr. once other expenses are taken. As to the market acceptance, I don't know yet. I did consult with a few other turners more experienced with selling than me - but if they don't sell, I'll be more than happy and proud to keep them on my own shelf. -- "Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long |
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In article , "George" george@least
wrote: Unless your governing body is exceptionally generous, you _must_ collect and pay sales tax, except on one-time sales of personal property. You don't have to have an EIN to pay tax in my state, they take it based on SSAN. When I was in business in Arizona, the state didn't care whether the buyer paid sales tax or not - only that the seller submitted the proper amount to the state. Most businesses pass the tax along to the customer as an itemized part of the transaction, but that wasn't any state requirement. After a particularly busy feeding frenzy of purchasers a few years back, I started rolling taxes into my prices and rounding to the quarter (favoring me, of course). If I hadn't, my daughter suggested she would never help me sell again. Since I enjoy shooting the breeze with other wood lovers more than making change and bagging, I took her advice. Keeping taxes separate, unless the taxing body requires it, is one of those mental games retailers use to appear less expensive than the competition. Instead of rolling the tax into the price, which would amount to the same out of pocket to the consumer, the retailer keeps it separate in order to play with appearances. I don't see woodturners losing customers by rolling taxes in since crafts aren't generally the commodity that manufactured goods are. -- "Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long |
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In article , "George" george@least
wrote: So I'm not in competition with that recognized turner at all. I can't compete. What I charge for steak in no way affects the price of sizzle. If my piece happens to resemble his - well, as we know, an infinite number of monkeys like me will eventually produce pieces that look like someone else's. Of course, they make things that look like mine, too. I believe you are in competition no matter where you chose to sell your items if you copy, imitate, duplicate, or pattern after the work of another turner. Now, just to be sure I don't bring on the flame posts about our indebtedness, with respect to shapes, to the ancient Greeks or the Chinese artisans of the Ming dynasty, I'm specifically speaking of artistic treatments such as Vesery's feathers or William Hunter's skeletal forms. It is my view that if one imitates the work of another with the intent to profit then it is indeed in competition as well as unethical. Honestly, I just can not fathom this resistance to respecting another's creative efforts or the tone that, what's put out for all to see is fair game for all to take for whatever amount they can profit from it. I think it's wrong, I think it hurts the creative spirit in those producing the work and I think it hinders the creativity within the very people who feel more at ease using another's ideas rather than coming up with their own. -- "Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long |
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In article ,
"Michael Lehmann" wrote: Unfortunately there will always be dogs who will try to make money on someone else's back. Way of the world through history I guess. What about saueracker shells? I put off replying for a few days because I wanted to look this up. Finally got around to Google it but came up pretty empty - I think. Saueracker appears as a last name very frequently but I couldn't find anything to do with shells or turning... Did the meaning of your question zoom right over my head - is the yoke on me? -- "Sure we'll have fascism in America, but it'll come disguised as 100% Americanism." -- Huey P. Long |
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From Mike Darlow Woodturning methods.
IEH Saueracker was an outstanding ornamental turner died 1942 aged 87. (German) It requires the workpiece to be turned on a large number of different, but parrallel axes. " That went on for way too long. and I dont understand it well enough to explain quickly, I have a pic if your interested (just remove the asterisk), but you would probably see it and say ,"ah those" I found it looking up eccentric turning 6 months ago and cant find it again. Mick |
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"Lobby Dosser" wrote in message news:MJsXd.57911$EL5.51102@trnddc05... Will wrote: People who "dabble" in an arts and crafts occupation tend to bring down the prices. I'd like to see a real world example of this. It isn't a factor. Most shows I attend have three-four turners. Unfortunately, there's always one slumming because s/he got juried out of another that weekend. They're the ones who complain about the taste of the people attending, the other turners' work, and maybe favor you with a "you can't make ornaments like this for that money" comment. They're also the ones, who, if they sold one of the partially hollowed and freshly waxed (only) pieces of burl they have, would gain as much as I get from three bowls. I'd rather have three times the fun at the lathe. |
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