I am finding this turning thing to be a great stress reliever; go in for
half an hour or a hour, come out a more relaxed man, even when it goes
badly. And I am getting towards destroying wood in a more constructive
fashion. So far, I figure there are only so many light pulls and shaker
pegs that I need, so want to move to up using enormous amounts of wood
to do something slightly more useful. Ok, probably not at all useful,
but something I could give away anyway.

Mr. Feltmate's website just appeals to me in a great way. It kicks ass.
I'd actually like to meet him in spite of my feelings about religion,
which says a lot. It might be because I am an easterner, but still; he
has a way that is very friendly to novices. As such, I was having a
gander at his tea light holder, especially since it has a big bold
BEGINNER in the description. See
http://www.aroundthewoods.com/tealights.shtml

Ok, if you got this far (congrats!), the question: He does the initial
turning on a glue block but recommends the bottom cut and finishing be
done on a four-jaw chuck. My question is why the glue block for the
first stage (ok, actually second...)? I would think this sequence:

1. Initial round and flatten faces between the centers. Make a tenon.
2. Insert Tenon into chuck and turn most of bowl as he does on a glue
block.
3. Reverse and do the bottom and finish.

In (1), why doesn't he roughly make it round?
In (2), why a glue block instead of a chuck? Strength issues, or perhaps
the because the tenon wastes a little more wood? Or just in case you
don't have a chuck (he seems economically minded); he does point out you
could use a jam chuck for (3)

I am just trying to understand the principles and concepts of turning
rather then follow a formula....

Thanks for the patience and great help so far!

PK

In article ,
Paul Kierstead wrote:

In (1), why doesn't he roughly make it round?

No reason you couldn't, if you liked. One possible advantage of just
turning the faces flat is that you could then move the center at the
next stage (it's oten difficult to tell where the best appximation to
center is on a fully rough hunk of wood). Of course, you could also just
move the centers at that point and turn it round between centers. Some
folks simply prefer working with centers, and others prefer not working
with centers. If you happen to have a lathe with a bad tailstock (one of
mine is), the latter position is wise.

In (2), why a glue block instead of a chuck? Strength issues, or perhaps
the because the tenon wastes a little more wood? Or just in case you
don't have a chuck (he seems economically minded); he does point out you
could use a jam chuck for (3)

Faster (hot glue) and less fuss for a lot of things, as well as a nice
tendency of Darrel not to act as a salesman for many tools you don't
actually need (as with many folks that have been at this a while, I own
a chuck, but I got by without one for many years, too). You could also
hold the things (in the hole, to do the bottom) with a pin chuck if you
were making a lot of them and kept the hole the same size.

I am just trying to understand the principles and concepts of turning
rather then follow a formula....

Primary principle - whatever works for you, works.

--
Cats, Coffee, Chocolate...vices to live by

You are right on about Darrell's site and his contribution to helping
turners. You are also to be commended in trying to figure out why things are
done a certain way and if there are alternatives. The alternatives often are
exactly what you need if you don't have a certain tool or lathe feature.

Ecnerwal pretty well summed up why Darrell did what he did. I would have
rounded the blank with a bandsaw first but not everybody has a bandsaw.

I may have put it between centers and turned a tenon for a chuck but not
likely. If I had been working with a piece oriented like a spindle (grain
parallel to bed) using centers, I likely would have turned a chuck tenon -
just me! So in the orientation shown on his site I probably would have used
a glue block (if material at a premium) or screwchuck.

Keep thinking!
Billh

"Paul Kierstead" wrote in message
news
I am finding this turning thing to be a great stress reliever; go in for
half an hour or a hour, come out a more relaxed man, even when it goes
badly. And I am getting towards destroying wood in a more constructive
fashion. So far, I figure there are only so many light pulls and shaker
pegs that I need, so want to move to up using enormous amounts of wood
to do something slightly more useful. Ok, probably not at all useful,
but something I could give away anyway.

Mr. Feltmate's website just appeals to me in a great way. It kicks ass.
I'd actually like to meet him in spite of my feelings about religion,
which says a lot. It might be because I am an easterner, but still; he
has a way that is very friendly to novices. As such, I was having a
gander at his tea light holder, especially since it has a big bold
BEGINNER in the description. See
http://www.aroundthewoods.com/tealights.shtml

Ok, if you got this far (congrats!), the question: He does the initial
turning on a glue block but recommends the bottom cut and finishing be
done on a four-jaw chuck. My question is why the glue block for the
first stage (ok, actually second...)? I would think this sequence:

1. Initial round and flatten faces between the centers. Make a tenon.
2. Insert Tenon into chuck and turn most of bowl as he does on a glue
block.
3. Reverse and do the bottom and finish.

In (1), why doesn't he roughly make it round?
In (2), why a glue block instead of a chuck? Strength issues, or perhaps
the because the tenon wastes a little more wood? Or just in case you
don't have a chuck (he seems economically minded); he does point out you
could use a jam chuck for (3)

I am just trying to understand the principles and concepts of turning
rather then follow a formula....

Thanks for the patience and great help so far!

PK

"Paul Kierstead" skrev i melding
news
1. Initial round and flatten faces between the centers. Make a tenon.
2. Insert Tenon into chuck and turn most of bowl as he does on a glue
block.
3. Reverse and do the bottom and finish.

I like working with chuck only, because of the speed.
But, I never use tenons when I turn bowls. I find it impossible to get
the steady, unvarying grip on a tenon that I get from a recess.
(I know, I know, we have been thru that, I stick to my way)

So, I have made myself dependent on a drillpress.
(It is also possible to make the initial recess between centers,
but i takes far too much time).

I always start on the (normally) flat side that is going to be the
concave side of the bowl. I put the piece under the drillpress with
a 2 1/8" Forstnerbit, and drill a hole near the max depth for my chuck.
I put the piece in the lathe, roughturn the bottom, and make the recess
for the convex side with a parting tool ( This tool makes a clean,
cylindrical
hole).

Then I true up the first hole with the parting tool to secure the symmetry
of the two holes.

Then i finish the bottom, and I mean "finish", as in sanding and
oiling.

Then I "empty" the bowl and finish.

This is the routine I learnt from my local "guru", and it seems to
me to be very near a professional way of working.


Bjarte

Bjarte Runderheim wrote:

I always start on the (normally) flat side that is going to be the
concave side of the bowl. I put the piece under the drillpress with a
2 1/8" Forstnerbit, and drill a hole near the max depth for my chuck.
I put the piece in the lathe, roughturn the bottom, and make the
recess for the convex side with a parting tool ( This tool makes a
clean, cylindrical hole).

OK up until this point except that I either use a woodworm screw in my
SuperNova chuck for smallish stuff, or a faceplate for the bigger
blanks. I have my doubts about the "cylindrical" nature of the recess
too, but that's been covered adequately in other posts ...

Then I true up the first hole with the parting tool to secure the
symmetry of the two holes. Then I finish the bottom, and I mean
"finish", as in sanding and oiling.

Now, this is the bit I don't understand. Are you saying that you reverse
the blank just to true up the first hole you made and then reverse it
again to finish turn the bottom? Why?

Then I "empty" the bowl and finish.

This is the routine I learnt from my local "guru", and it seems to me
to be very near a professional way of working.
--
Alun

"Alun Saunders" skrev i melding
...

Now, this is the bit I don't understand. Are you saying that you reverse
the blank just to true up the first hole you made and then reverse it
again to finish turn the bottom? Why?

Because of the rougher nature of the drilled hole, the bottom will almost
never be in exact parallell to the second hole, made with the parting tool.

I therefore clean out the bottom and sides of this first hole, in order to
avoid wobble when i refasten to clean the bottom.
It is a choice between removing a little in the hole, or a lot from the
bowl.

It works for me.


Bjarte

Bjarte Runderheim wrote:

"Alun Saunders" skrev i melding
...

Now, this is the bit I don't understand. Are you saying that you reverse
the blank just to true up the first hole you made and then reverse it
again to finish turn the bottom? Why?

Because of the rougher nature of the drilled hole, the bottom will almost
never be in exact parallell to the second hole, made with the parting tool.

But surely after you're done with turning the bottom and making the
recess, then it doesn't matter because the first thing you're going to
do when you reverse the bowl to hollow the inside is to get rid of the
first hole you made anyway ... or am I missing something here? It seems
like an unnecesary extra step to me, unless you're getting some movement
or wobble in the piece due to the nature of the bored hole which you
want to avoid when finishing the bottom?

--
Alun

Paul
Thank you to you and the group for your kind words regarding the site. In
answer to your question regarding the glue block, I do it that way partly
out of habit and because it works so well. It also eliminates the need for a
scroll chuck which is an unnecessary expense although a nice one. These are
also a good seller for me at Craft Fairs so I like turn them by the dozen
and have them ready on glue blocks to put on and off the lathe. I know, they
could be done with the chuck as well, but really, I think of blocks and face
plates before a chuck. It is just what I am used to, I guess.

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com

Everybody grows from something into something. I never used faceplates
much, and with my first chuck purchase, they were relegated to collect dust
on the shelf until I took them up to school. So I ask, as you do, why glue
blocks. The way I do it works too, and dollars to donuts there are other
ways. Darrell uses that Oland tool, I use (HORRORS) spindle gouges - both
move wood, but I'll bet there are other ways out there too.

If you have a chuck, take a look at the spindle method at:
http://personalpages.tds.net/~upgeorge/index.html
It's safe, quick, and produces a nice surface.

"Paul Kierstead" wrote in message
news
Ok, if you got this far (congrats!), the question: He does the initial
turning on a glue block but recommends the bottom cut and finishing be
done on a four-jaw chuck. My question is why the glue block for the
first stage (ok, actually second...)? I would think this sequence:

1. Initial round and flatten faces between the centers. Make a tenon.
2. Insert Tenon into chuck and turn most of bowl as he does on a glue
block.
3. Reverse and do the bottom and finish.

In (1), why doesn't he roughly make it round?
In (2), why a glue block instead of a chuck? Strength issues, or perhaps
the because the tenon wastes a little more wood? Or just in case you
don't have a chuck (he seems economically minded); he does point out you
could use a jam chuck for (3)

I am just trying to understand the principles and concepts of turning
rather then follow a formula....

Thanks for the patience and great help so far!

PK

Bjarte,
I am correct in reading that you finish (sand & oil) the bottom including
the hole and then remount in the hole you just finished?
Tony Manella
ndd1"at"prolog.net (remove "at")
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.com/

"Bjarte Runderheim" wrote in message
...

"Paul Kierstead" skrev i melding
news
1. Initial round and flatten faces between the centers. Make a tenon.
2. Insert Tenon into chuck and turn most of bowl as he does on a glue
block.
3. Reverse and do the bottom and finish.

I like working with chuck only, because of the speed.
But, I never use tenons when I turn bowls. I find it impossible to get
the steady, unvarying grip on a tenon that I get from a recess.
(I know, I know, we have been thru that, I stick to my way)

So, I have made myself dependent on a drillpress.
(It is also possible to make the initial recess between centers,
but i takes far too much time).

I always start on the (normally) flat side that is going to be the
concave side of the bowl. I put the piece under the drillpress with
a 2 1/8" Forstnerbit, and drill a hole near the max depth for my chuck.
I put the piece in the lathe, roughturn the bottom, and make the recess
for the convex side with a parting tool ( This tool makes a clean,
cylindrical
hole).

Then I true up the first hole with the parting tool to secure the symmetry
of the two holes.

Then i finish the bottom, and I mean "finish", as in sanding and
oiling.

Then I "empty" the bowl and finish.

This is the routine I learnt from my local "guru", and it seems to
me to be very near a professional way of working.


Bjarte

"Alun Saunders" skrev i melding
...

But surely after you're done with turning the bottom and making the
recess, then it doesn't matter because the first thing you're going to
do when you reverse the bowl to hollow the inside is to get rid of the
first hole you made anyway ... or am I missing something here? It seems
like an unnecesary extra step to me, unless you're getting some movement
or wobble in the piece due to the nature of the bored hole which you
want to avoid when finishing the bottom?


When I use the drilled hole, I roughturn the backside, that is, I turn it
down
to _near_ the finished shape. Then I make my second hole in the bottom with
my parting tool (5mm thick)(and I have another, thinner one, for real
parting work).

Now comes the hard part: Sometimes and allways you find something inside the
wood to make you change your plans for shape and / or thickness. Sometimes I
have to hollow the bowl partly, leaving a thick stem in the middle, just to
see
what the wood looks like, and then I have to change the shape of the outside
somewhat, because of what I saw.

When I have made sure of two exactly parallell holes, I can switch back and
forth between the two sides without losing anything that I don't want to
lose.
With an uneven, not trued up hole on the other side, I get wobble each time
i turn the piece around, and the bowl is rapidly taking the shape of a
platter.

Now. When I allways true up the two holes in the beginning, it gives me
a wider range of actions afterward.

Sometimes it is a bit unneccessary, and sometimes it gives me a good result
with minimal loss of material.

That's why I do it routinely.
It works for me.

Bjarte

Bjarte Runderheim wrote:

Now comes the hard part: Sometimes and allways you find something
inside the wood to make you change your plans for shape and / or
thickness. Sometimes I have to hollow the bowl partly, leaving a
thick stem in the middle, just to see what the wood looks like, and
then I have to change the shape of the outside somewhat, because of
what I saw.

When I have made sure of two exactly parallell holes, I can switch
back and forth between the two sides without losing anything that I
don't want to lose. With an uneven, not trued up hole on the other
side, I get wobble each time i turn the piece around, and the bowl is
rapidly taking the shape of a platter.

Now. When I allways true up the two holes in the beginning, it gives
me a wider range of actions afterward.

OK, I get it now

--
Alun

"Alun Saunders" skrev i melding
...

Now. When I allways true up the two holes in the beginning, it gives
me a wider range of actions afterward.

OK, I get it now



You're welcome:-)
Giving advice to other people helps me think through my own things,
so maybe the benefit is really mine?

Bjarte

Though, it is entirely possible to do what you suggest with a dovetail
recess. Less the oil at my house.

"Tony Manella" ndd1 at prolog.net wrote in message
...
Bjarte,
I am correct in reading that you finish (sand & oil) the bottom including
the hole and then remount in the hole you just finished?

"Tony Manella" ndd1 at prolog.net skrev i melding
...
Bjarte,
I am correct in reading that you finish (sand & oil) the bottom including
the hole and then remount in the hole you just finished?



I do.

Bjarte

"Ecnerwal" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Paul Kierstead wrote:
SNIP .........
I am just trying to understand the principles and concepts of turning
rather then follow a formula....

Primary principle - whatever works for you, works.
===================================
This is true, but keep your eyes and ears open. There may be a better and/or
easier way. Never too late to learn something new!

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX

"Darrell Feltmate" wrote in message
news:4e2kd.134503$df2.41880@edtnps89...
Paul
Thank you to you and the group for your kind words regarding the site. In
answer to your question regarding the glue block, I do it that way partly
out of habit and because it works so well. It also eliminates the need for
a
scroll chuck which is an unnecessary expense although a nice one. These
are
also a good seller for me at Craft Fairs so I like turn them by the dozen
and have them ready on glue blocks to put on and off the lathe. I know,
they
could be done with the chuck as well, but really, I think of blocks and
face
plates before a chuck. It is just what I am used to, I guess.

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com
==================================
For any one new to this group, please read Darrell's site regarding his use
of hot glue. It is NOT the usual craft type glue gun he uses. That will not
give you a good hold when you start turning (don't ask how I know, I just
do). His procedure calls for a stove or hot plate, etc., and a container to
heat the glue in. It must be much hotter than glue gun temp for it to work.

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX

Actually Ken, I use a regular craft glue gun. A friend of mine, Ken Bullock
from Fredericton, NB uses an electric frying pan. Maurice Gamblin uses a
regular glue gun. they both turn larger bowls than I habitually do and
either system works. There are a couple of things to watch out for though.
The gun has to get hot. Use at least a 40 watt gun and an 80 is better. Give
it time to heat; I like at least 10 minutes under the theory that 5 is good
enough. When in doubt give the piece a "bench test;" hold it in your hand
and give the glue bock a good swat against the bench. If it holds, turn
away. Make sure the glue surfaces are dry. If gluing to a wet surface, heat
it dry with a heat gun or torch. You are quite right in thinking that a gun
hot enough to melt glue is not necessarily hot enough to give a good melt.
Give it time to heat and things should go well. Your suggestion of a hot
plate is good. Set the heat to about 375 F.


--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com

"Darrell Feltmate" wrote in message
news:Rbgkd.136128$df2.4971@edtnps89...
Actually Ken, I use a regular craft glue gun. A friend of mine, Ken
Bullock
from Fredericton, NB uses an electric frying pan. Maurice Gamblin uses a
regular glue gun. they both turn larger bowls than I habitually do and
either system works. There are a couple of things to watch out for
though.
The gun has to get hot. Use at least a 40 watt gun and an 80 is better.
Give
it time to heat; I like at least 10 minutes under the theory that 5 is
good
enough. When in doubt give the piece a "bench test;" hold it in your hand
and give the glue bock a good swat against the bench. If it holds, turn
away. Make sure the glue surfaces are dry. If gluing to a wet surface,
heat
it dry with a heat gun or torch. You are quite right in thinking that a
gun
hot enough to melt glue is not necessarily hot enough to give a good melt.
Give it time to heat and things should go well. Your suggestion of a hot
plate is good. Set the heat to about 375 F.
==============================
Darrell,
Thanks for straightening me out! It was Ken Bullock that I was thinking
about. He used to post quite frequently about his hot glue blocks and the
extra heat he used to get the thing to stick. Since you say the glue gun can
be used if additional heating is used I may try that again ..... standing
well out of the way this time !! (:-)

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX

BTW,
How's that big Craftsman lathe holding up?

Ken Moon wrote:

==============================
I may try that again ..... standing
well out of the way this time !! (:-)

HA_HEH_HE_HE sorry, mmm couldn't help it

Ken
The Craftsman is doing fine. Now if the weather was just a little warmer...
I think I am going to have to sacrifice turning time to insulating time for
the shop. There was snow on the graound the last couple of mornings and the
oil bill could be a beaut this year.

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com

Free advice. I use a pin chuck a lot, which, as you know, isn't much of a
hold. In wood like wet aspen, it's my practice to begin rotation by hand
before applying power, to reduce starting shock. Might use it if you don't
have a soft start.

Isn't Ken an RV type now?

"Ken Moon" wrote in message
link.net...
Thanks for straightening me out! It was Ken Bullock that I was thinking
about. He used to post quite frequently about his hot glue blocks and the
extra heat he used to get the thing to stick. Since you say the glue gun
can
be used if additional heating is used I may try that again ..... standing
well out of the way this time !! (:-)

Do you then remove the teeth marks from the chuck? How so?
Tony Manella
ndd1"at"prolog.net (remove "at")
http://home.ptd.net/~ndd1/
Lehigh Valley Woodturners
http://www.lehighvalleywoodturners.com/

"Bjarte Runderheim" wrote in message
...

"Tony Manella" ndd1 at prolog.net skrev i melding
...
Bjarte,
I am correct in reading that you finish (sand & oil) the bottom
including
the hole and then remount in the hole you just finished?



I do.

Bjarte

Some I do, turning the finished bowl or platter in a big platechuck with
rubber grips,
levelling the edges, but leaving my special mark in the center,
some I just clean and sand the bottom of the hole in advance, and leave my
special mark,
some i fill with a plywood round, glue it in, and burn my special mark.

The chuckmarks inside the recess do not show much anyway, and for people who
know
nothing about turning, some think the recess is an ornamental thing.

Bjarte



"Tony Manella" ndd1 at prolog.net skrev i melding
...
Do you then remove the teeth marks from the chuck? How so?
Tony Manella

The question "Glue Block vrs. Chuck".
Its interesting to know that in 1842 Turners' Cement was used.
I was reading a 2001 re-print of the Handbook of Turning first published in
1842. The word chuck is used and its drawing depicts a face plate. To hold
the work piece to the face plate they used Turners' Cement. The 1842 recipe
for this Turners' Cement is roughly shown as follows: Burgundy pitch, rosin,
colophonium, yellow wax and whiting. Melt all except the later in an
earthen pot, over a slow fire. Still in 2004 turners are using hot melt
glue to hold the work piece on a wooden block fastened to a metal face plate
or simply a threaded wooden block.

They gave a recipe for making Turners' Cement. "Bjarte Runderheim"
wrote in message
news
Some I do, turning the finished bowl or platter in a big platechuck with
rubber grips,
levelling the edges, but leaving my special mark in the center,
some I just clean and sand the bottom of the hole in advance, and leave my
special mark,
some i fill with a plywood round, glue it in, and burn my special mark.

The chuckmarks inside the recess do not show much anyway, and for people
who
know
nothing about turning, some think the recess is an ornamental thing.

Bjarte



"Tony Manella" ndd1 at prolog.net skrev i melding
...
Do you then remove the teeth marks from the chuck? How so?
Tony Manella

"Denis Marier" skrev i melding
...
The question "Glue Block vrs. Chuck".
Its interesting to know that in 1842 Turners' Cement was used.
I was reading a 2001 re-print of the Handbook of Turning first published
in
1842. The word chuck is used and its drawing depicts a face plate. To
hold
the work piece to the face plate they used Turners' Cement. The 1842
recipe
for this Turners' Cement is roughly shown as follows: Burgundy pitch,
rosin,
colophonium, yellow wax and whiting. Melt all except the later in an
earthen pot, over a slow fire. Still in 2004 turners are using hot melt
glue to hold the work piece on a wooden block fastened to a metal face
plate
or simply a threaded wooden block.


I believe that if the turners of 1842 had access to a chuck like
the Stronghold or the Axminster, the gluepots would have been
less frequent:-)

Bjarte

Yes, it would the gluepots would have been
less frequent:-)
On the other hand, In my area (Coastal Eastern Canada) turners are making
use of the glue block more than the modern "Chucks". Why? the replies I got
were that the use of the glue block is more convenient that the chucks. It
would be interesting to have some statistics on who use the glue blocks and
who use the modern chucks.

"Bjarte Runderheim" wrote in message
...

"Denis Marier" skrev i melding
...
The question "Glue Block vrs. Chuck".
Its interesting to know that in 1842 Turners' Cement was used.
I was reading a 2001 re-print of the Handbook of Turning first published
in
1842. The word chuck is used and its drawing depicts a face plate. To
hold
the work piece to the face plate they used Turners' Cement. The 1842
recipe
for this Turners' Cement is roughly shown as follows: Burgundy pitch,
rosin,
colophonium, yellow wax and whiting. Melt all except the later in an
earthen pot, over a slow fire. Still in 2004 turners are using hot melt
glue to hold the work piece on a wooden block fastened to a metal face
plate
or simply a threaded wooden block.


I believe that if the turners of 1842 had access to a chuck like
the Stronghold or the Axminster, the gluepots would have been
less frequent:-)

Bjarte

"Denis Marier" wrote in message
...
Yes, it would the gluepots would have been
less frequent:-)
On the other hand, In my area (Coastal Eastern Canada) turners are making
use of the glue block more than the modern "Chucks". Why? the replies I
got
were that the use of the glue block is more convenient that the chucks.
It
would be interesting to have some statistics on who use the glue blocks
and
who use the modern chucks.
================================

What about those of us who use both or neither depending on situation?

Ken Moon
Webberville, TX

In article ,
Paul Kierstead wrote:

yap yap

I have been remiss in offering my thanks for the many many replies to
the query. It has been *very* helpful and I now have a better idea of
"method of work". I just knocked my first bit of firewood into a
cylinder (was mucking with nice prepared smallish square stock before)
in prelude to making these; what a rush! Somehow, the g/f doesn't
understand the thrill. "It is just a cylinder"; "But I made it from
firewood!" blank stare "OK. Nice job". Ah well...

PK