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#1
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Very Newbie Question
Apologies if this is really stupid:
I just received my new Jet mini lathe and Pinacle tools from Woodcraft. I have turned only once, many years ago. I honed the tools with some rouge and then used the lathe. My cuts are really really rough, and I think I'm just ripping the wood. How clean should I expect my cuts to be? Does the wood species matter in this? Is it that my tools are dull, or is my cutting technique poor, or both? Thanks, Steve |
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#2
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Very Newbie Question
depends on many things.
It takes practice lots of practice to get a finish surface. Even then some woods will always produce a rough surface especially on end grain. Another thing to do is go buy an inexpensive grinder (assuming your chisels are inexpensive also) and put a proper edge on your tools. Research sharpening on the net a bit and then try it again. wrote: Apologies if this is really stupid: I just received my new Jet mini lathe and Pinacle tools from Woodcraft. I have turned only once, many years ago. I honed the tools with some rouge and then used the lathe. My cuts are really really rough, and I think I'm just ripping the wood. How clean should I expect my cuts to be? Does the wood species matter in this? Is it that my tools are dull, or is my cutting technique poor, or both? Thanks, Steve |
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#3
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Very Newbie Question
Apologies if this is really stupid:
I just received my new Jet mini lathe and Pinacle tools from Woodcraft. I have turned only once, many years ago. I honed the tools with some rouge and then used the lathe. My cuts are really really rough, and I think I'm just ripping the wood. How clean should I expect my cuts to be? Does the wood species matter in this? Is it that my tools are dull, or is my cutting technique poor, or both? Thanks, I'm going to guess that you are using your chisels and gouges as if they were scrapers. That will produce a rough finish and is the most common mistake beginners make. It is true that Scrapers are used with the tool held horizontally, so the cutting edge scrapes along the spinning wood. But, Chisels and Gouges are held with their handles dropped, pointing downwards. This causes the cutting bevel (the underside portion you honed) to rub on the wood, presenting the cutting edge to the wood. Try this. Get a 2x4 and put it in a vise or clamp it to a table. Now, pick up your sharpened gouge and make a cut in the wood. Notice how you instinctively move the handle from vertical to an angle matching the cutting angle? That's the trick! It's just a little trickier with spinning, round wood, but the idea is the same. I suggest finding a local turner to show you the basics, or get one of the turning videos. Dan |
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#4
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Very Newbie Question
Dan,
OK, that's helpful. I had set my toolrest at about the centerline of the wood piece. Maybe if I set it a fraction higher that would allow me a bit more of a downward angle. Or maybe move the toolrest a bit further away (I was within 1/4" last time) to again allow for a more downward angle. Does this sound about right? Also, yes, I know I need to get some videos and books; I think I made a poor choice in my first book entitled something like (sic) "Mini lathe: big projects from a small lathe". I think I need a real basic book or video that's not really project oriented, but technique oriented. Any suggestions on that? Thanks again, Steve Dan Bollinger wrote: Apologies if this is really stupid: I just received my new Jet mini lathe and Pinacle tools from Woodcraft. I have turned only once, many years ago. I honed the tools with some rouge and then used the lathe. My cuts are really really rough, and I think I'm just ripping the wood. How clean should I expect my cuts to be? Does the wood species matter in this? Is it that my tools are dull, or is my cutting technique poor, or both? Thanks, I'm going to guess that you are using your chisels and gouges as if they were scrapers. That will produce a rough finish and is the most common mistake beginners make. It is true that Scrapers are used with the tool held horizontally, so the cutting edge scrapes along the spinning wood. But, Chisels and Gouges are held with their handles dropped, pointing downwards. This causes the cutting bevel (the underside portion you honed) to rub on the wood, presenting the cutting edge to the wood. Try this. Get a 2x4 and put it in a vise or clamp it to a table. Now, pick up your sharpened gouge and make a cut in the wood. Notice how you instinctively move the handle from vertical to an angle matching the cutting angle? That's the trick! It's just a little trickier with spinning, round wood, but the idea is the same. I suggest finding a local turner to show you the basics, or get one of the turning videos. Dan |
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#6
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Very Newbie Question
Dan,
OK, that's helpful. I had set my toolrest at about the centerline of the wood piece. Maybe if I set it a fraction higher that would allow me a bit more of a downward angle. Or maybe move the toolrest a bit further away (I was within 1/4" last time) to again allow for a more downward angle. Does this sound about right? Also, yes, I know I need to get some videos and books; I think I made a poor choice in my first book entitled something like (sic) "Mini lathe: big projects from a small lathe". I think I need a real basic book or video that's not really project oriented, but technique oriented. Any suggestions on that? Thanks again, Steve Steve, Not quite! For gouge work, keep the tool rest close and a little below the centerline. That will support the tool well and put the cutting edge on the centerline. But don't just shove the gouge into the wood! Try this. Hold the gouge with handle pointing toward the floor and cutting edge toward the ceiling, and touching the tool rest. Slowly raise the handle. As you do the bottom of the gouge will rub on the wood. Keep raising the handle, and the place were the wood rubs will move toward the cutting edge. When you begin to get shavings, freeze! That's the proper angle. What you want is the wood rubbing lightly on the bevel. Dan Dan Bollinger wrote: Apologies if this is really stupid: I just received my new Jet mini lathe and Pinacle tools from Woodcraft. I have turned only once, many years ago. I honed the tools with some rouge and then used the lathe. My cuts are really really rough, and I think I'm just ripping the wood. How clean should I expect my cuts to be? Does the wood species matter in this? Is it that my tools are dull, or is my cutting technique poor, or both? Thanks, I'm going to guess that you are using your chisels and gouges as if they were scrapers. That will produce a rough finish and is the most common mistake beginners make. It is true that Scrapers are used with the tool held horizontally, so the cutting edge scrapes along the spinning wood. But, Chisels and Gouges are held with their handles dropped, pointing downwards. This causes the cutting bevel (the underside portion you honed) to rub on the wood, presenting the cutting edge to the wood. Try this. Get a 2x4 and put it in a vise or clamp it to a table. Now, pick up your sharpened gouge and make a cut in the wood. Notice how you instinctively move the handle from vertical to an angle matching the cutting angle? That's the trick! It's just a little trickier with spinning, round wood, but the idea is the same. I suggest finding a local turner to show you the basics, or get one of the turning videos. Dan |
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#7
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Very Newbie Question
Dan: Thanks for the clarification; I'll try that. Mike: thanks for the
links; I'm checking them out now. Steve Dan Bollinger wrote: Dan, OK, that's helpful. I had set my toolrest at about the centerline of the wood piece. Maybe if I set it a fraction higher that would allow me a bit more of a downward angle. Or maybe move the toolrest a bit further away (I was within 1/4" last time) to again allow for a more downward angle. Does this sound about right? Also, yes, I know I need to get some videos and books; I think I made a poor choice in my first book entitled something like (sic) "Mini lathe: big projects from a small lathe". I think I need a real basic book or video that's not really project oriented, but technique oriented. Any suggestions on that? Thanks again, Steve Steve, Not quite! For gouge work, keep the tool rest close and a little below the centerline. That will support the tool well and put the cutting edge on the centerline. But don't just shove the gouge into the wood! Try this. Hold the gouge with handle pointing toward the floor and cutting edge toward the ceiling, and touching the tool rest. Slowly raise the handle. As you do the bottom of the gouge will rub on the wood. Keep raising the handle, and the place were the wood rubs will move toward the cutting edge. When you begin to get shavings, freeze! That's the proper angle. What you want is the wood rubbing lightly on the bevel. Dan Dan Bollinger wrote: Apologies if this is really stupid: I just received my new Jet mini lathe and Pinacle tools from Woodcraft. I have turned only once, many years ago. I honed the tools with some rouge and then used the lathe. My cuts are really really rough, and I think I'm just ripping the wood. How clean should I expect my cuts to be? Does the wood species matter in this? Is it that my tools are dull, or is my cutting technique poor, or both? Thanks, I'm going to guess that you are using your chisels and gouges as if they were scrapers. That will produce a rough finish and is the most common mistake beginners make. It is true that Scrapers are used with the tool held horizontally, so the cutting edge scrapes along the spinning wood. But, Chisels and Gouges are held with their handles dropped, pointing downwards. This causes the cutting bevel (the underside portion you honed) to rub on the wood, presenting the cutting edge to the wood. Try this. Get a 2x4 and put it in a vise or clamp it to a table. Now, pick up your sharpened gouge and make a cut in the wood. Notice how you instinctively move the handle from vertical to an angle matching the cutting angle? That's the trick! It's just a little trickier with spinning, round wood, but the idea is the same. I suggest finding a local turner to show you the basics, or get one of the turning videos. Dan |
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#8
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Very Newbie Question
Mac: I called you 'Mike'. Sorry and thanks again.
Steve wrote: Dan: Thanks for the clarification; I'll try that. Mike: thanks for the links; I'm checking them out now. Steve Dan Bollinger wrote: Dan, OK, that's helpful. I had set my toolrest at about the centerline of the wood piece. Maybe if I set it a fraction higher that would allow me a bit more of a downward angle. Or maybe move the toolrest a bit further away (I was within 1/4" last time) to again allow for a more downward angle. Does this sound about right? Also, yes, I know I need to get some videos and books; I think I made a poor choice in my first book entitled something like (sic) "Mini lathe: big projects from a small lathe". I think I need a real basic book or video that's not really project oriented, but technique oriented. Any suggestions on that? Thanks again, Steve Steve, Not quite! For gouge work, keep the tool rest close and a little below the centerline. That will support the tool well and put the cutting edge on the centerline. But don't just shove the gouge into the wood! Try this. Hold the gouge with handle pointing toward the floor and cutting edge toward the ceiling, and touching the tool rest. Slowly raise the handle. As you do the bottom of the gouge will rub on the wood. Keep raising the handle, and the place were the wood rubs will move toward the cutting edge. When you begin to get shavings, freeze! That's the proper angle. What you want is the wood rubbing lightly on the bevel. Dan Dan Bollinger wrote: Apologies if this is really stupid: I just received my new Jet mini lathe and Pinacle tools from Woodcraft. I have turned only once, many years ago. I honed the tools with some rouge and then used the lathe. My cuts are really really rough, and I think I'm just ripping the wood. How clean should I expect my cuts to be? Does the wood species matter in this? Is it that my tools are dull, or is my cutting technique poor, or both? Thanks, I'm going to guess that you are using your chisels and gouges as if they were scrapers. That will produce a rough finish and is the most common mistake beginners make. It is true that Scrapers are used with the tool held horizontally, so the cutting edge scrapes along the spinning wood. But, Chisels and Gouges are held with their handles dropped, pointing downwards. This causes the cutting bevel (the underside portion you honed) to rub on the wood, presenting the cutting edge to the wood. Try this. Get a 2x4 and put it in a vise or clamp it to a table. Now, pick up your sharpened gouge and make a cut in the wood. Notice how you instinctively move the handle from vertical to an angle matching the cutting angle? That's the trick! It's just a little trickier with spinning, round wood, but the idea is the same. I suggest finding a local turner to show you the basics, or get one of the turning videos. Dan |
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#9
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Very Newbie Question
Get a good video. Some may learn the physical techniques from a book, but
most beginners will follow much better with a video. For certain things, such as segmented work, a book might be better than a video due to all the details that need to be conveyed. Derek wrote in message oups.com... Apologies if this is really stupid: I just received my new Jet mini lathe and Pinacle tools from Woodcraft. I have turned only once, many years ago. I honed the tools with some rouge and then used the lathe. My cuts are really really rough, and I think I'm just ripping the wood. How clean should I expect my cuts to be? Does the wood species matter in this? Is it that my tools are dull, or is my cutting technique poor, or both? Thanks, Steve |
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#10
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Very Newbie Question
"Derek Hartzell" wrote in message ... Get a good video. Some may learn the physical techniques from a book, but most beginners will follow much better with a video. For certain things, such as segmented work, a book might be better than a video due to all the details that need to be conveyed. Derek wrote in message oups.com... Apologies if this is really stupid: I just received my new Jet mini lathe and Pinacle tools from Woodcraft. I have turned only once, many years ago. I honed the tools with some rouge and then used the lathe. My cuts are really really rough, and I think I'm just ripping the wood. How clean should I expect my cuts to be? Does the wood species matter in this? Is it that my tools are dull, or is my cutting technique poor, or both? Thanks, Steve All of them matter, and if you read, reading will help. I'd look for something besides a "How to turn X" book to get started. You're interested in the basics that will allow you to turn X,Y and Z. Frank Pain _The Practical Woodturner_, though out of print, has to be one of the best on how tools cut and how wood "prefers to be cut. " Cut , then peel is the technique. Anchor the tool _firmly_ on the toolrest , match or even seat the Bevel to the contour of the wood, then pivot around your fulcrum to make the Cut that starts the peel. I like to lock up the small muscles, using a shift in weight to make the entry. Saves a lot of bounce and rip. |
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#11
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Very Newbie Question
Would this approach of elevating the handle until the bevel touches work for
pen turning? If so about how low relative to the pen mandrel should I set the tool rest? Russ "Dan Bollinger" wrote in message news  Dan, OK, that's helpful. I had set my toolrest at about the centerline of the wood piece. Maybe if I set it a fraction higher that would allow me a bit more of a downward angle. Or maybe move the toolrest a bit further away (I was within 1/4" last time) to again allow for a more downward angle. Does this sound about right? Also, yes, I know I need to get some videos and books; I think I made a poor choice in my first book entitled something like (sic) "Mini lathe: big projects from a small lathe". I think I need a real basic book or video that's not really project oriented, but technique oriented. Any suggestions on that? Thanks again, Steve Steve, Not quite! For gouge work, keep the tool rest close and a little below the centerline. That will support the tool well and put the cutting edge on the centerline. But don't just shove the gouge into the wood! Try this. Hold the gouge with handle pointing toward the floor and cutting edge toward the ceiling, and touching the tool rest. Slowly raise the handle. As you do the bottom of the gouge will rub on the wood. Keep raising the handle, and the place were the wood rubs will move toward the cutting edge. When you begin to get shavings, freeze! That's the proper angle. What you want is the wood rubbing lightly on the bevel. Dan Dan Bollinger wrote: Apologies if this is really stupid: I just received my new Jet mini lathe and Pinacle tools from Woodcraft. I have turned only once, many years ago. I honed the tools with some rouge and then used the lathe. My cuts are really really rough, and I think I'm just ripping the wood. How clean should I expect my cuts to be? Does the wood species matter in this? Is it that my tools are dull, or is my cutting technique poor, or both? Thanks, I'm going to guess that you are using your chisels and gouges as if they were scrapers. That will produce a rough finish and is the most common mistake beginners make. It is true that Scrapers are used with the tool held horizontally, so the cutting edge scrapes along the spinning wood. But, Chisels and Gouges are held with their handles dropped, pointing downwards. This causes the cutting bevel (the underside portion you honed) to rub on the wood, presenting the cutting edge to the wood. Try this. Get a 2x4 and put it in a vise or clamp it to a table. Now, pick up your sharpened gouge and make a cut in the wood. Notice how you instinctively move the handle from vertical to an angle matching the cutting angle? That's the trick! It's just a little trickier with spinning, round wood, but the idea is the same. I suggest finding a local turner to show you the basics, or get one of the turning videos. Dan |
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#12
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Very Newbie Question
On 23 Jun 2006 07:50:32 -0700, wrote:
Not a problem, Steve... usually called Mark or Mike... I answer to most anything.. *g* Mac: I called you 'Mike'. Sorry and thanks again. Steve wrote: Dan: Thanks for the clarification; I'll try that. Mike: thanks for the links; I'm checking them out now. Steve Dan Bollinger wrote: Dan, OK, that's helpful. I had set my toolrest at about the centerline of the wood piece. Maybe if I set it a fraction higher that would allow me a bit more of a downward angle. Or maybe move the toolrest a bit further away (I was within 1/4" last time) to again allow for a more downward angle. Does this sound about right? Also, yes, I know I need to get some videos and books; I think I made a poor choice in my first book entitled something like (sic) "Mini lathe: big projects from a small lathe". I think I need a real basic book or video that's not really project oriented, but technique oriented. Any suggestions on that? Thanks again, Steve Steve, Not quite! For gouge work, keep the tool rest close and a little below the centerline. That will support the tool well and put the cutting edge on the centerline. But don't just shove the gouge into the wood! Try this. Hold the gouge with handle pointing toward the floor and cutting edge toward the ceiling, and touching the tool rest. Slowly raise the handle. As you do the bottom of the gouge will rub on the wood. Keep raising the handle, and the place were the wood rubs will move toward the cutting edge. When you begin to get shavings, freeze! That's the proper angle. What you want is the wood rubbing lightly on the bevel. Dan Dan Bollinger wrote: Apologies if this is really stupid: I just received my new Jet mini lathe and Pinacle tools from Woodcraft. I have turned only once, many years ago. I honed the tools with some rouge and then used the lathe. My cuts are really really rough, and I think I'm just ripping the wood. How clean should I expect my cuts to be? Does the wood species matter in this? Is it that my tools are dull, or is my cutting technique poor, or both? Thanks, I'm going to guess that you are using your chisels and gouges as if they were scrapers. That will produce a rough finish and is the most common mistake beginners make. It is true that Scrapers are used with the tool held horizontally, so the cutting edge scrapes along the spinning wood. But, Chisels and Gouges are held with their handles dropped, pointing downwards. This causes the cutting bevel (the underside portion you honed) to rub on the wood, presenting the cutting edge to the wood. Try this. Get a 2x4 and put it in a vise or clamp it to a table. Now, pick up your sharpened gouge and make a cut in the wood. Notice how you instinctively move the handle from vertical to an angle matching the cutting angle? That's the trick! It's just a little trickier with spinning, round wood, but the idea is the same. I suggest finding a local turner to show you the basics, or get one of the turning videos. Dan Mac https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm |
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#13
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Very Newbie Question
On Sat, 24 Jun 2006 08:58:28 -0400, "Russ Stanton"
wrote: Would this approach of elevating the handle until the bevel touches work for pen turning? If so about how low relative to the pen mandrel should I set the tool rest? Russ It should work on any type of turning, assuming the tool rest is properly positioned, as far as I can see.. It's important to note that different chisels are different thicknesses and grind angles and can need different rest heights.. I might be doing something wrong, but I raise my rest from "spindle gouge" height for skew and scraper work and lower it for bowl gouges.. Mac https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm |
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#14
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Very Newbie Question
Thanks again for all the advice. I spent some time this weekend practicing and trying out some of the recommendations posted here. I found that rubbing the bevel is very important...that's the tip I found the most helpful. This allowed me to really peel the wood off. I was getting a really nice edge on some maple. I've read up on sharpening and ordered a 60 grit Norton white wheel for a 1750 RPM electric motor I have. My tools were fairly sharp on Friday evening and now they need sharpening...hope that wheel gets here soon. So here is another question: If I were to buy one introductory video (perferably on DVD) what should it be? I'd like something that is packed with information on turning techniques and sharpening. Thanks again, Steve |
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#16
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Very Newbie Question
mac davis wrote: Honing is only effective if the tool is pretty sharp already.. otherwise, you're not honing an edge, you're polishing it and it looks pretty, but is also pretty dull... Yeah, what he said. When you look at the edge in with light shining from behind your head, and you can see a shiny metal line where the edge is, that means it's dull, because the light is reflecting off a radius. When it's really sharp, the edge is so fine you should be hard pressed to see any line of reflected light on the edge. I use 60 grit wheels only to really change the shape of a tool or grind back a long way from a bad chip on the tool. Grinding with 60 grit can require a lot of honing with finer stones to smooth out the ridges and valleys of the edge left by the wheel. That said, a light touch and smoothing the wheel with a dresser can still produce great edges for lots of roughing work, especially for scrapers, where many people love to keep the burr on the edge. Once you've mastered the 60 grit wheel and wish it were sharper, you might try 100 or 120. I do it both ways (burr/ no burr) depending on the wood. For really punky wood that's spalted, you almost have to scrape to get the best finish before you sand. Trying to cut punky wood gives more tear outs than a razor sharp scraper, no burr, just honed to the point you can shave hairs off your arm. In fact, until you can master cutting methods, you'll probably get your cleanest surface (by which I mean not just smooth, but a fair line on the profile that doesn't have bumps and valleys) with a razor sharp scraper. Often this need -- to have a fair line on profile -- trumps smooth surface and minimal sanding. It's hard to cut a fair curve with a gouge, even when it's sharp, and takes a lot of practice. I've been turning 24 years and still have to clean up some gouge work with a good scraper now and then. It gets harder as the diameter of the wood gets larger, since it takes longer for the wood to come around, and you have to remain stationary longer. |
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#17
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Very Newbie Question
"Mark Fitzsimmons" wrote in message ups.com... mac davis wrote: Honing is only effective if the tool is pretty sharp already.. otherwise, you're not honing an edge, you're polishing it and it looks pretty, but is also pretty dull... Yeah, what he said. When you look at the edge in with light shining from behind your head, and you can see a shiny metal line where the edge is, that means it's dull, because the light is reflecting off a radius. When it's really sharp, the edge is so fine you should be hard pressed to see any line of reflected light on the edge. Hmm- this pertains to non-hollow ground edges? A hollow ground edge always shows a shiny line at edge and heel. Of course even a non-hollow ground edge can shine if you've changed the sharpness angle. They call it a "microbevel." |
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#18
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Very Newbie Question
George wrote: "Mark Fitzsimmons" wrote in message ups.com... mac davis wrote: Honing is only effective if the tool is pretty sharp already.. otherwise, you're not honing an edge, you're polishing it and it looks pretty, but is also pretty dull... Yeah, what he said. When you look at the edge in with light shining from behind your head, and you can see a shiny metal line where the edge is, that means it's dull, because the light is reflecting off a radius. When it's really sharp, the edge is so fine you should be hard pressed to see any line of reflected light on the edge. Hmm- this pertains to non-hollow ground edges? A hollow ground edge always shows a shiny line at edge and heel. Of course even a non-hollow ground edge can shine if you've changed the sharpness angle. They call it a "microbevel." No, hollow ground. I'm talking about looking at it from the angle that bisects the angle of the cutting edge, not looking at the bevel straight on. Any edge, if sharp, the shiny line should be nearly invisible. You want to sharpen until the shiny line (radiused edge) disappears. If light reflects off the "edge" back into your eye when the edge is pointed at your eye, that means there is metal that is parallel to your eye, in other words, not aligned with either the bevel or the tool surface, in other words, not sharp. I mean point the tool at your eye periodically while you're turning: eye ball ) edge points at the eye and a shiny line will indicate the tool is getting dull. the line will get smaller and disappear as you hone, If the radius is really bad, like from super hard wood, you might grind until the shiny line disappears then hone, but sometimes just a few strokes with the stone is enough without the grinder. Or if the grind is coarse, you'll see a crooked line that gets straighter as you hone. George is talking about this viewing angle: eye ball ) /\ bevel and then you'll see much wider shiny lines at the edge and heel of the hollow ground, which get wider as you hone. |
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#19
Posted to rec.crafts.woodturning
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Very Newbie Question
"Mark Fitzsimmons" wrote in message oups.com... Hmm- this pertains to non-hollow ground edges? A hollow ground edge always shows a shiny line at edge and heel. Of course even a non-hollow ground edge can shine if you've changed the sharpness angle. They call it a "microbevel." No, hollow ground. I'm talking about looking at it from the angle that bisects the angle of the cutting edge, not looking at the bevel straight on. Any edge, if sharp, the shiny line should be nearly invisible. You want to sharpen until the shiny line (radiused edge) disappears. If light reflects off the "edge" back into your eye when the edge is pointed at your eye, that means there is metal that is parallel to your eye, in other words, not aligned with either the bevel or the tool surface, in other words, not sharp. OK, sounds like you've got something that works, though I still can't see the logic nor do I recognize the effect. I sharpen based on tactile feedback, rather than looking at gouges nose on. |
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