I've been turning some large bowls from green wood. The wood was cut late
last year.

So far 3 out of three have jumped off the lathe shortly after I pulled the
tailstock away so that I could start hollowing.

I'm using glued on waste blocks screwed to the faceplate, and the cause is
obvious--the glue ain't dry.

The wood feels dry to the touch, the waste block is dry oak, and I'm using
Tite-Bond II for glue. After the first AWOL bowl, I started waiting 2 days
after gluing before I put them on the lathe, but have the same problem. I
use glue generously, but there is not much squeeze out when I put the clamps
on it, so I don't think that's the problem. When the joint comes apart, the
glue is still damp to the touch, but not liquid. Of course the poor paper
separator is mush. I'm surprised that the joint stayed tight as long as it
did.

My first solution is to go to Polyethylene (Gorilla) glue. Since it likes
water to cure, should do the trick. Has anyone done this who can give me
the benefit of their experience?

Are there other ideas that could help?

The good part is that I've learned how bowls blow off the lathe, and where
to stand to avoid them.

Thanks.

Walt C

Well, glue doesn't dry in the bottle, so no reason why it would dry
deep inside the seam.

You mention a paper separator - why? Just glue the blocks directly
on, and cut them off with the gouge later.

Also, try a two-part epoxy. It doesn't require water or air to cure.

When I use yellow glue on the lathe, what I end up doing is this: I
rub on an even coat of glue using my fingertip. Then I use the
tailstock to compress the two parts slightly, and turn one of them
(i.e. spinning the glue). I lock the headstock for this. As I turn
the wood around, I increase pressure on the tailstock. Between the
pressure and the motion, I get most of the excess glue out, and leave
a very consistent glue thickness behind. When the glue seems to
"stick" and it gets hard to turn the wood any more, I move it to its
final orientation (I'm usually gluing up segmented rings) and tighten
the tailstock a bit more. I can true rings after an hour of drying,
but for a bowl blank I'd remove it after 10 min or so and let it dry
the rest of the way overnight.

I would try the Gorilla glue but IMO what you are trying to do is the
Achilles heel of glue blocks. Great things if the wood is reasonably dry but
if it's wet then I don't trust them.
Some people dry the bottom of the bowl blank with a hair dryer first and
then get the roughing done quickly. CA glue is also water tolerant in the
short term but you might be better with medium CA than the real thin stuff.

Be careful, a flying blank can be very dangerous!!! Make sure you have a
faceshield as a minimum and stay out of the line-of-fire until you get a
better understanding of what works for you.

billh

"Walt Cheever" wrote in message
news:8848g.722614$084.285368@attbi_s22...
I've been turning some large bowls from green wood. The wood was cut late
last year.

So far 3 out of three have jumped off the lathe shortly after I pulled the
tailstock away so that I could start hollowing.

I'm using glued on waste blocks screwed to the faceplate, and the cause is
obvious--the glue ain't dry.

The wood feels dry to the touch, the waste block is dry oak, and I'm using
Tite-Bond II for glue. After the first AWOL bowl, I started waiting 2
days after gluing before I put them on the lathe, but have the same
problem. I use glue generously, but there is not much squeeze out when I
put the clamps on it, so I don't think that's the problem. When the joint
comes apart, the glue is still damp to the touch, but not liquid. Of
course the poor paper separator is mush. I'm surprised that the joint
stayed tight as long as it did.

My first solution is to go to Polyethylene (Gorilla) glue. Since it likes
water to cure, should do the trick. Has anyone done this who can give me
the benefit of their experience?

Are there other ideas that could help?

The good part is that I've learned how bowls blow off the lathe, and where
to stand to avoid them.

Thanks.

Walt C

Walt Cheever wrote:
I'm using glued on waste blocks screwed to the faceplate, and the cause is
obvious--the glue ain't dry.

The wood feels dry to the touch, the waste block is dry oak, and I'm using
Tite-Bond II for glue. After the first AWOL bowl, I started waiting 2 days
after gluing before I put them on the lathe, but have the same problem. I
use glue generously, but there is not much squeeze out when I put the clamps
on it, so I don't think that's the problem. When the joint comes apart, the
glue is still damp to the touch, but not liquid. Of course the poor paper
separator is mush. I'm surprised that the joint stayed tight as long as it
did.

Wood that feels dry to the touch may still have considerable moisture
content. I think most wood glues are designed to work on dry wood. Some
people use hot melt glue, but again I don't know if this works on green
wood. Take a look on Darrell Feltmate's website, I think he uses this
technique.

It also sounds to me like the surfaces are not flat, though that depends
on just how generous you are with the glue.

--
Derek Andrews, woodturner

http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com
http://chipshop.blogspot.com - a blog for my customers
http://www.seafoamwoodturning.com/TheToolrest/ - a blog for woodturners

On Tue, 09 May 2006 17:16:52 GMT, "Walt Cheever"
wrote:

My first solution is to go to Polyethylene (Gorilla) glue. Since it likes
water to cure, should do the trick. Has anyone done this who can give me
the benefit of their experience?

I haven't used Gorilla Glue on the lathe, but I have used it for
outdoor projects- be advised that while it claims to be able to fill
gaps, it "fills" them by turning into a soft foam that doesn't have
much holding power. This worked fine for a park bench I built that I
carefully hand cut moritses in and clamped in stages, but on another
kind of rushed shelving unit I made out of pine, the glue did not hold
(the dadoes were about 1/32" too wide, and the shelves did not stick
in place very well)

I guess the point it you should be careful to make sure that the
mating surfaces match perfectly, and clamp the blank very tightly
until it cures.

FWIW, I've also used the Elmer's Polyethylene glue, and for whatever
reason, it seems to hold a little better, and is a buck or two cheaper
per bottle.

I've also heard a lot about using hot glue on glue blocks.

Walt C

I've been using glue blocks on a regular basis for many years. I use CA
glue, medium visc. When using CA you can mount the piece on the lathe
immediately. It works well on wet wood.

When using glue blocks, both surfaces must be flat and true as for any
other glue joint. Use plenty of glue. Use a few seconds of hand
pressure when applying. No clamps. If you've used enough glue there
should be some squeeze-out. If a CA glue joint fails it's nearly always
because not enough glue was used. Forget using paper. I part the
finished piece off with a parting tool. When parting and the glue joint
is smaller than a nickel just pop the piece off with the heel of your
hand.

Works for me and it's worked for over 300 students in my classes.

Wally

Check my web site for using hot glue on a glue block. It works a treat but
if using it on wet wood, dry the wood with a heat gun first. Also turn the
piece immediately. Moisture can wick to the glue surface and ruin the bond.
For wet wood I have often used a medium to thick viscosity CA. Put glue on
the block, accelerator on the piece and force them together for a minute or
so.

--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com

Thanks All--Lots of good ideas. Will review what I'm doing and see if I can
stop dodging bowl blanks.

Walt C


"Walt Cheever" wrote in message
news:8848g.722614$084.285368@attbi_s22...
I've been turning some large bowls from green wood. The wood was cut late
last year.

So far 3 out of three have jumped off the lathe shortly after I pulled the
tailstock away so that I could start hollowing.

I'm using glued on waste blocks screwed to the faceplate, and the cause is
obvious--the glue ain't dry.

The wood feels dry to the touch, the waste block is dry oak, and I'm using
Tite-Bond II for glue. After the first AWOL bowl, I started waiting 2
days after gluing before I put them on the lathe, but have the same
problem. I use glue generously, but there is not much squeeze out when I
put the clamps on it, so I don't think that's the problem. When the joint
comes apart, the glue is still damp to the touch, but not liquid. Of
course the poor paper separator is mush. I'm surprised that the joint
stayed tight as long as it did.

My first solution is to go to Polyethylene (Gorilla) glue. Since it likes
water to cure, should do the trick. Has anyone done this who can give me
the benefit of their experience?

Are there other ideas that could help?

The good part is that I've learned how bowls blow off the lathe, and where
to stand to avoid them.

Thanks.

Walt C

What's wrong with screwing the bowl to the face plate ??, I had to do
that for decades, just turn the screw holes away when done or plug them
up, we used to glue felt backing on the foot also.

Of course a little Talon chuck would be helpfull also.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

"Walt Cheever" wrote in message
news:8848g.722614$084.285368@attbi_s22...
I've been turning some large bowls from green wood. The wood was cut late
last year.

So far 3 out of three have jumped off the lathe shortly after I pulled the
tailstock away so that I could start hollowing.


Are there other ideas that could help?

The good part is that I've learned how bowls blow off the lathe, and where
to stand to avoid them.

That's "rule" number one - stand out of the throw zone.

Make the best you can with the hand you're dealt. How about _not_ removing
the tailstock to begin hollowing, but using it until the bowl is near final
thickness and in best balance? Also puts you out of the throw zone, because
of the tool angle.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...e/639fb765.jpg Plunge
while rotating, pull back toward the rim. Works on the other side of the
gouge in the other direction.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...e/639fb765.jpg

The pillar on my stuff is hollow for the pin chuck, but solid with center
mark will do as well. If you need more support, taper an opening and use
the conical part of your tail center to help with centering and support. Not
only are you getting help when you're hogging hard, but if you are going to
rough absolutely green and allow to dry, you can leave your center available
for later use.

"George" George@least wrote in message
...

How about _not_ removing
the tailstock to begin hollowing, but using it until the bowl is near
final thickness and in best balance? Also puts you out of the throw zone,
because of the tool angle.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...e/639fb765.jpg Plunge
while rotating, pull back toward the rim.

Obviously wrong one. Center to rim at
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d1...e/422896ce.jpg

On 9 May 2006 20:12:08 -0700, "
wrote:

What's wrong with screwing the bowl to the face plate ??, I had to do
that for decades, just turn the screw holes away when done or plug them
up, we used to glue felt backing on the foot also.

That was before HSS and motors on lathes, right Leo? *g*


Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

I do a lot of this. I gave up on paper separators for glue blocks on
large bowls (anything bigger than 8") years ago, they fail, even if the
wood is dry.

no squeeze out sounds like it's not flat. Check with the block dry and
look for light through the crack before you glue. Use a hand plane to
make them flat, or match curvature. Sometimes even not flat can match
well if you rotate the block.

Don't use Gorilla glue for this application. I've had a few large
pieces fail with the gorilla glue. previous post about foam is right
on. Titebond is the best, but wait several days, even a week if you're
concerned about the moist wood.

Epoxy works well. Super glue can work, but super glue has to be done
quickly and there may not be time to clamp before it crystallizes, I
wouldn't use it for a large bowl.

The more I think about this the less I understand what is happening, a not
unusual occurence for me. If you are roughing the bowl why are you using a
glue block at all? Either there should be enough scrap at the bottom of the
piece for a faceplate or certainly enough for a spur center. I rough
entirely between centers, exterior and interior. If you are finsihing the
bowl green and letting it warp this is a different matter. In that case I
would rough between centers using a face plate at the base and remove the
tenon with large jaws, a jam chuck or other means, The chances of flight are
minimal to say the least. (The tenon "could" split.) Occasionally I have
turned a hollow form from green wood when the screws for a face plate would
remove too much of the piece. In that case I heat the bottom of the piece
with a heat gun to dry it and use hot glue. I have also used CA with equally
good results.Make sure the surfaces are flat and dry.
--
God bless and safe turning
Darrell Feltmate
Truro, NS Canada
www.aroundthewoods.com

Hi Mack

No the HSS has been around a little longer, but lathes without motors
was still the norm, when I was a boy, overhead drive shafts with idler
pulleys and wide leather or canvas belts would drive lathes, drills,
grinders and forging hammers etc.

Wood turning has changed more in the last 30 or 40 years than in the
preceeding 3000 years I would think.

And some of the ways of holding the wood are still very good and safe
ways of doing that, there might be better or easier and quicker ways,
if you have the tools and equipment, but screwing blanks and rough
turnings to face plates is still a very viable way of doing that.

With big bowls and wet wood there is usually enough extra wood to use
screws for holding, 6 or 8 screws, 1/2" deep in sound wood is all thats
needed, and I have used 1/4" depth successful on rough turned bowls
enough times, when I needed to use screws on thinner bowl and platters.

I certainly trust screws more so than glue, but that might be just me.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

"Darrell Feltmate" wrote in message
news:fEa8g.4515$cl1.3551@edtnps90...
Check my web site for using hot glue on a glue block. It works a treat
but
if using it on wet wood, dry the wood with a heat gun first. Also turn the
piece immediately. Moisture can wick to the glue surface and ruin the
bond.
For wet wood I have often used a medium to thick viscosity CA. Put glue on
the block, accelerator on the piece and force them together for a minute
or
so.

All this discussion of adhesives got me thinking: would properly applied
contact adhesives work for this? Or are they too susceptible to releasing
under stress?

Max

On 10 May 2006 11:15:04 -0700, "
wrote:

Hi Mack

No the HSS has been around a little longer, but lathes without motors
was still the norm, when I was a boy, overhead drive shafts with idler
pulleys and wide leather or canvas belts would drive lathes, drills,
grinders and forging hammers etc.

Wood turning has changed more in the last 30 or 40 years than in the
preceeding 3000 years I would think.

And some of the ways of holding the wood are still very good and safe
ways of doing that, there might be better or easier and quicker ways,
if you have the tools and equipment, but screwing blanks and rough
turnings to face plates is still a very viable way of doing that.

With big bowls and wet wood there is usually enough extra wood to use
screws for holding, 6 or 8 screws, 1/2" deep in sound wood is all thats
needed, and I have used 1/4" depth successful on rough turned bowls
enough times, when I needed to use screws on thinner bowl and platters.

I certainly trust screws more so than glue, but that might be just me.

Have fun and take care
Leo Van Der Loo

Me, too... I know that glue has really improved in the last decade, but I'd
rather use good screws....

This thread reminded me of a club demo a while ago on the skew... the guy doing
the demo was a retired shop instructor and when he needed a "steady rest" for a
spindle turning he used a solid piece of hardwood with a curve cut in it...
that's old school!

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

Darrell Feltmate wrote:
If you are roughing the bowl why are you using a glue block at all? Either there should
be enough scrap at the bottom of the piece for a faceplate or certainly enough for a spur
center.

l.vanderloo wrote:
With big bowls and wet wood there is usually enough extra wood to use
screws for holding


You guys sure are quick to suggest other people waste their wood!
I don't usually screw into the wood because I want to make them as
large as possible.
Waste not, Want not.

Mark,

You guys sure are quick to suggest other people waste their wood!
I don't usually screw into the wood because I want to make them as
large as possible.
Waste not, Want not.

Mount the wood with the side that will become the top of the bowl, on a
face plate. Then your initial turning will be to shape the outside and
add a tenon or recess for the chuck. Screw holes on the top of the bowl
do not matter since they will be removed when the bowl is hollowed.

BTW, in spite of the face plate, bring the live center in contact with
the blank. It will add a bit to the overall holding power and will leave
a center mark that should be useful when rechucking the piece.

Harry

On Thu, 11 May 2006 14:44:42 -0400, Harry Pye
wrote:

Mark,

You guys sure are quick to suggest other people waste their wood!
I don't usually screw into the wood because I want to make them as
large as possible.
Waste not, Want not.

Mount the wood with the side that will become the top of the bowl, on a
face plate. Then your initial turning will be to shape the outside and
add a tenon or recess for the chuck. Screw holes on the top of the bowl
do not matter since they will be removed when the bowl is hollowed.

BTW, in spite of the face plate, bring the live center in contact with
the blank. It will add a bit to the overall holding power and will leave
a center mark that should be useful when rechucking the piece.

You make a good point, but why use the faceplate at all, glue block or
no if you have a chuck? It's pretty easy to turn a tenon between
centers and part off. Or it that something a guy has to do with one
of those stubby bowl lathes? (I don't have one, and haven't looked at
them closely)

Just curious.

Prometheus wrote:

You make a good point, but why use the faceplate at all, glue block or
no if you have a chuck? It's pretty easy to turn a tenon between
centers and part off. Or it that something a guy has to do with one
of those stubby bowl lathes? (I don't have one, and haven't looked at
them closely)

I rarely use a faceplate. I mount the blank between centers. It is
easier to get it balanced that way and that is the way we learned in the
David Ellsworth workshop. I rough turn the outside and create the tenon
this way. Then reverse it in a chuck to do the inside. With green wood
and a really rough piece of wood, the drive center cuts into the wood
and the tailstock needs to be tightened regularly. On the bright side,
the drive center does some of the hollowing for you! And, with both
centers dug into the wood, there is little chance of the blank coming
off the lathe.

Harry

On Thu, 11 May 2006 21:24:57 -0400, Harry Pye
wrote:

Prometheus wrote:

You make a good point, but why use the faceplate at all, glue block or
no if you have a chuck? It's pretty easy to turn a tenon between
centers and part off. Or it that something a guy has to do with one
of those stubby bowl lathes? (I don't have one, and haven't looked at
them closely)

I rarely use a faceplate. I mount the blank between centers. It is
easier to get it balanced that way and that is the way we learned in the
David Ellsworth workshop. I rough turn the outside and create the tenon
this way. Then reverse it in a chuck to do the inside. With green wood
and a really rough piece of wood, the drive center cuts into the wood
and the tailstock needs to be tightened regularly. On the bright side,
the drive center does some of the hollowing for you! And, with both
centers dug into the wood, there is little chance of the blank coming
off the lathe.

Yeah, that's almost a perfect description of the way I do it, I was
just pointing out that the idea of just using the chuck may not be an
option for a guy that just has a faceplate. Chucks are expensive
toys, after all- I used a faceplate for six months or so after I got
my lathe. Hence the discussion about glue blanks and the like.
Unless I've got it all wrong, and the OP just likes the glue block
better than the chuck for aestetic or other reasons.

Tenons still waste wood.
Glue blocks of scrap wood work great and can be re-used a number of
times, depending on their thickness. I glue directly to the wood and do
as much parting as possible with a thin parting tool. If it's a large
platter or something, I use a hand saw , which is faster than one might
imagine, and good exercise too.

On 11 May 2006 09:18:34 -0700, "Mark Fitzsimmons"
wrote:

Darrell Feltmate wrote:
If you are roughing the bowl why are you using a glue block at all? Either there should
be enough scrap at the bottom of the piece for a faceplate or certainly enough for a spur
center.

l.vanderloo wrote:
With big bowls and wet wood there is usually enough extra wood to use
screws for holding


You guys sure are quick to suggest other people waste their wood!
I don't usually screw into the wood because I want to make them as
large as possible.
Waste not, Want not.

I've found that the more turning I do, and the better the supply of wood I have,
the less important the final size of the bowl becomes..

To make a gently curved bowl, for instance, as opposed to a straight sided bowl
with rounded bottom, a lot more wood has to be "wasted"...
I don't use face plates or screws, in favor of a tenon for the chuck which will
usually be turned off.. I guess that's wasting wood, but it works for me..

Sort of a "that's why paint comes in more than one color" thing.. I know 2
people that use screws and face plates and when finishing the bowl bottom they
actually ENLARGE the screw holes and put contrasting hardwood dowels in, sanded
flush...

The only right way to do it is the way that works for you and that you like..
everything else is an option..

Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

On Thu, 11 May 2006 14:44:42 -0400, Harry Pye wrote:

Mark,

You guys sure are quick to suggest other people waste their wood!
I don't usually screw into the wood because I want to make them as
large as possible.
Waste not, Want not.

Mount the wood with the side that will become the top of the bowl, on a
face plate. Then your initial turning will be to shape the outside and
add a tenon or recess for the chuck. Screw holes on the top of the bowl
do not matter since they will be removed when the bowl is hollowed.

BTW, in spite of the face plate, bring the live center in contact with
the blank. It will add a bit to the overall holding power and will leave
a center mark that should be useful when rechucking the piece.

Harry


Harry... being lazy, I use the above method without the face plate, using the
wood worm screw in the chuck...
The hole needs to be about 3/4" deep but sometimes I'll make it up to 3" deep to
use as a depth guide when hollowing..


Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm

"Mark Fitzsimmons" wrote in message
oups.com...
Tenons still waste wood.

One of the reasons for using a mortise! Seems counterintuitive that the
same jaws holding inside versus outside could make the claim to "saving"
depth, but since the standard bowl uses the outside (convex) portion of the
wood as the bottom, it works out that way. The mortise takes advantage of
the existing contour. \\ //

Of course, this thread has taken a life of its own. I like the ease of use
and re-use provided by the pin chuck when roughing, as well as the safety it
gives over drive centers and single screws. Also makes it a cinch to make
the mortise, because the bowl will hang there on the pin chuck just
perfectly.

Mac,
I use the above method without the face plate, using the
wood worm screw in the chuck...
The hole needs to be about 3/4" deep but sometimes I'll make it up to 3" deep to
use as a depth guide when hollowing..

I thought this person 'wanted' to use a face plate. I rarely use a face
plate for anything. I start my bowls between centers as I mentioned in
an earlier post. I feel that I can get the wood balanced better than I
could by just eyeballing center. I don't use a bandsaw either. Just
knock the corners off with a chain saw.

I do like the idea of drilling a deep hole as a depth guide. I really
hate making funnels.

Harry

On Fri, 12 May 2006 12:32:47 -0400, Harry Pye wrote:

Mac,
I use the above method without the face plate, using the
wood worm screw in the chuck...
The hole needs to be about 3/4" deep but sometimes I'll make it up to 3" deep to
use as a depth guide when hollowing..

I thought this person 'wanted' to use a face plate. I rarely use a face
plate for anything. I start my bowls between centers as I mentioned in
an earlier post. I feel that I can get the wood balanced better than I
could by just eyeballing center. I don't use a bandsaw either. Just
knock the corners off with a chain saw.

I do like the idea of drilling a deep hole as a depth guide. I really
hate making funnels.

Harry

I think that the OP was using a face place because they thought that it was the
main way of holding work.. seems to me that if you're going to use a glue block
anyway, the face plate is required because you don't have a lathe chuck?

I don't do many glue blocks, but the blocks that I have are turned to a tenon
for the chuck on the "back" side..
Mac

https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis
https://home.comcast.net/~mac.davis/wood_stuff.htm