I'm getting ready to tackle the last big job in my kitchen renovations -
fitting laminate worktops.
I'm hiring a jig and router for next weekend, and I'm fairly confident I can
make a good job of it. I do still have a couple of questions that I'm sure
you guys can help with :-)

1) Is it best to do the cuts in one go, or make several passes, getting
deeper each time?

2) I'm a bit concerned about the laminate chipping. I've read that scoring
it first helps, and also clamping some wood to the surface can stop it, but
what about the bullnosed front edge?

3) Would a circular saw work for the straight cuts? I imagine it would be
quicker, but would I need a special blade (especially to avoid chipping the
laminate?)

Thanks for any advice you may be able to give. I've tackled everything in
the house myself so far (with lots of helpful advice from here), but I would
probably have left this one to a professional. Unfortunately no-one seemed
to be interested in doing the work (not unless they also supplied their own
low quality worktops). In any case, as my mother-in-law helpfully pointed
out, I could mess up quite a few cuts before it would have been cheaper to
get someone in!

Bob

On Mon, 24 May 2004 10:58:27 +0100, "Bob"
wrote:

I'm getting ready to tackle the last big job in my kitchen renovations -
fitting laminate worktops.
I'm hiring a jig and router for next weekend, and I'm fairly confident I can
make a good job of it. I do still have a couple of questions that I'm sure
you guys can help with :-)

1) Is it best to do the cuts in one go, or make several passes, getting
deeper each time?

You need to do several passes. I have a fairly powerful 12.7mm
router (DeWalt DW625) and did my passes at about 8mm increments.
The trick is to make sure that the cutter is sharp, keep the router
moving but don't force it so that it slows noticably.

You must make sure the the work is properly supported. WHat I did
was to lay strips of timber on my bench to act as spacers and then I
laid the worktop on that. This prevents any tendency for it to move
and crack away as you go through.

Also, do make sure that the jig is very firmly clamped to the worktop.


2) I'm a bit concerned about the laminate chipping. I've read that scoring
it first helps, and also clamping some wood to the surface can stop it, but
what about the bullnosed front edge?

This won't happen with a router if you follow the jig instructions.
Cut from the bullnose front towards the back.



3) Would a circular saw work for the straight cuts? I imagine it would be
quicker, but would I need a special blade (especially to avoid chipping the
laminate?)

I use a router for both. You are much less likely to chip the
laminate than with a saw.



Thanks for any advice you may be able to give. I've tackled everything in
the house myself so far (with lots of helpful advice from here), but I would
probably have left this one to a professional. Unfortunately no-one seemed
to be interested in doing the work (not unless they also supplied their own
low quality worktops). In any case, as my mother-in-law helpfully pointed
out, I could mess up quite a few cuts before it would have been cheaper to
get someone in!

If you have enough worktop, try a practice cut near one end.





Bob


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 24 May 2004 10:58:27 +0100, "Bob"
wrote:


snipped useful tips



Thanks for any advice you may be able to give. I've tackled everything
in
the house myself so far (with lots of helpful advice from here), but I
would
probably have left this one to a professional. Unfortunately no-one
seemed
to be interested in doing the work (not unless they also supplied their
own
low quality worktops). In any case, as my mother-in-law helpfully
pointed
out, I could mess up quite a few cuts before it would have been cheaper
to
get someone in!

If you have enough worktop, try a practice cut near one end.



Thanks for the tips. The pricing structure of the worktops meant that an
additonal £5 resulted in an extra 2m of worktop. I should finish up with a
few small offcuts and one length of around 10ft, so I guess I have enough
for a couple of practice runs. Not too many, though - I could use that
piece in the shed :-)

Bob

On Mon, 24 May 2004 10:58:27 +0100, "Bob" strung
together this:

1) Is it best to do the cuts in one go, or make several passes, getting
deeper each time?

Yep, that's how you're meant to use a router in all circumstances, cut about
10mm deep on each pass. One tip is when you've got the jig setup you'll notice
there is a couple of mm play in the guide. When you're cutting pull the router
away from the finished side of the cut, then when you've gone all the way
through make a final full depth pass pushing towards the finished edge to clean
up any cut lines or blade marks.

2) I'm a bit concerned about the laminate chipping. I've read that scoring
it first helps, and also clamping some wood to the surface can stop it, but
what about the bullnosed front edge?

You'll be ok with the router and guide, just go gently. The same applies with
the circular saw, just easily guide it in and it'll be fine.

3) Would a circular saw work for the straight cuts? I imagine it would be
quicker, but would I need a special blade (especially to avoid chipping the
laminate?)

Yep, that's what I usually use for straight cuts on worktops, use a fine tooth
blade. It also helps to clamp a rigid straight edge onto the back of the worktop
so that you get a nice straight cut.

Unfortunately no-one seemed
to be interested in doing the work (not unless they also supplied their own
low quality worktops).

Cowboys, I won't fit thin worktops unless the customer supplies them, I'm too
scared of them bending and snapping in the van!

In any case, as my mother-in-law helpfully pointed
out, I could mess up quite a few cuts before it would have been cheaper to
get someone in!

That's the spirit!
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd

Make use of masking tape on both sides of the worktop, that should
minimise flaking of the laminate and you won't have to apply pencil
marks on your worktop. When we recently renovated our kitchen (still
ongoing btw), we actually measured a few cms extra, and after cutting
the worktop with a jigsaw, we sanded the edge to the size required.
The sanding provided by far the best solution - no flaking, and just a
very smooth surface to work with.

Simulet.

"simulet" wrote in message
om...
Make use of masking tape on both sides of the worktop, that should
minimise flaking of the laminate and you won't have to apply pencil
marks on your worktop. When we recently renovated our kitchen (still
ongoing btw), we actually measured a few cms extra, and after cutting
the worktop with a jigsaw, we sanded the edge to the size required.
The sanding provided by far the best solution - no flaking, and just a
very smooth surface to work with.

Simulet.

I don't think I'd have the patience for sanding - I have 10 cut ends (6
visible) and 2 mitred corners to do!

I'll see how the test cuts go before trying all the anti-chip tips - they
are good quality worktops (at least I hope they are - Axiom), so the
laminate should be well bonded. I should probably buy a new cutter though -
then I'll know its sharp.

Bob

On Mon, 24 May 2004 16:33:56 +0100, "Bob"
wrote:


"simulet" wrote in message
. com...
Make use of masking tape on both sides of the worktop, that should
minimise flaking of the laminate and you won't have to apply pencil
marks on your worktop. When we recently renovated our kitchen (still
ongoing btw), we actually measured a few cms extra, and after cutting
the worktop with a jigsaw, we sanded the edge to the size required.
The sanding provided by far the best solution - no flaking, and just a
very smooth surface to work with.

Simulet.

I don't think I'd have the patience for sanding - I have 10 cut ends (6
visible) and 2 mitred corners to do!

I'll see how the test cuts go before trying all the anti-chip tips - they
are good quality worktops (at least I hope they are - Axiom), so the
laminate should be well bonded. I should probably buy a new cutter though -
then I'll know its sharp.

Bob


You should find that if you use a good quality sharp cutter and are
not agressive on depth or rate of cut, that there will be no chipping.

Remember that a small version of a router is sold as a laminate
trimmer and that you can get laminate trimming bits for standard
routers.

I've had good success with CMT and Freud TCT cutters, although Trend
are OK as well. It is worth spending the extra if you want a good
job. This is not one for the £3 Chinese jobs.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 24 May 2004 16:33:56 +0100, "Bob"
wrote:


"simulet" wrote in message
. com...
Make use of masking tape on both sides of the worktop, that should
minimise flaking of the laminate and you won't have to apply pencil
marks on your worktop. When we recently renovated our kitchen (still
ongoing btw), we actually measured a few cms extra, and after cutting
the worktop with a jigsaw, we sanded the edge to the size required.
The sanding provided by far the best solution - no flaking, and just a
very smooth surface to work with.

Simulet.

I don't think I'd have the patience for sanding - I have 10 cut ends (6
visible) and 2 mitred corners to do!

I'll see how the test cuts go before trying all the anti-chip tips - they
are good quality worktops (at least I hope they are - Axiom), so the
laminate should be well bonded. I should probably buy a new cutter
though -
then I'll know its sharp.

Bob


You should find that if you use a good quality sharp cutter and are
not agressive on depth or rate of cut, that there will be no chipping.

Remember that a small version of a router is sold as a laminate
trimmer and that you can get laminate trimming bits for standard
routers.

I've had good success with CMT and Freud TCT cutters, although Trend
are OK as well. It is worth spending the extra if you want a good
job. This is not one for the £3 Chinese jobs.



Quite. And in any case, a decent cutter is still relatively cheap when
compared to the cost of the materials being cut.
I'm intrigued by the "laminate trimmer" - is that for cleaning up the edging
strips? I had planned to cut roughly to shape and then file the last bit
down, but if there is a proper tool...

Bob

On Mon, 24 May 2004 17:22:59 +0100, "Bob"
wrote:





Quite. And in any case, a decent cutter is still relatively cheap when
compared to the cost of the materials being cut.
I'm intrigued by the "laminate trimmer" - is that for cleaning up the edging
strips? I had planned to cut roughly to shape and then file the last bit
down, but if there is a proper tool...

Bob


Basically, yes.

Normally a laminate trimmer is used when you are laminating something
yourself. You cut it oversize and stick with contact adhesive.

The laminate trimmer then has a bearing guided cutter, where the ball
race runs on the edging. It then cuts the laminate precisely.

I'm not sure about using it the opposite way on edging. You should
be able to with care but bear in mind that the router base is only
supported on the worktop edge.

I would definitely practice this before attempting it......


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Bob" wrote in message
...

"simulet" wrote in message
om...
Make use of masking tape on both sides of the worktop, that should
minimise flaking of the laminate and you won't have to apply pencil
marks on your worktop. When we recently renovated our kitchen (still
ongoing btw), we actually measured a few cms extra, and after cutting
the worktop with a jigsaw, we sanded the edge to the size required.
The sanding provided by far the best solution - no flaking, and just a
very smooth surface to work with.

Simulet.

I don't think I'd have the patience for sanding - I have 10 cut ends (6
visible) and 2 mitred corners to do!

I'll see how the test cuts go before trying all the anti-chip tips - they
are good quality worktops (at least I hope they are - Axiom), so the
laminate should be well bonded. I should probably buy a new cutter
though -
then I'll know its sharp.

Bob



You will probably need to buy 3 cutters for that job for the amount of cuts
you are doing. Worktops will blunt them very quickly.

Steve Dawson

"Bob" wrote in message
...
I'm getting ready to tackle the last big job in my kitchen renovations -
fitting laminate worktops.
I'm hiring a jig and router for next weekend, and I'm fairly confident I
can
make a good job of it. I do still have a couple of questions that I'm
sure
you guys can help with :-)

I had the same worries but on the advice here bought a very good jigsaw
(Bosch) with down-cutting blades. Change these the moment the work seems
to be getting difficult. With the first sink the (crap B&Q) blades were
blunting in only a couple of feet but some others from a woodworking place
lasted a good two metres before I decided to replace them. They could have
been used longer I'm sure but blades are cheap - worktops aren't.

"G&M" wrote in message
...

"Bob" wrote in message
...
I'm getting ready to tackle the last big job in my kitchen renovations -
fitting laminate worktops.
I'm hiring a jig and router for next weekend, and I'm fairly confident I
can
make a good job of it. I do still have a couple of questions that I'm
sure
you guys can help with :-)

I had the same worries but on the advice here bought a very good jigsaw
(Bosch) with down-cutting blades. Change these the moment the work seems
to be getting difficult. With the first sink the (crap B&Q) blades were
blunting in only a couple of feet but some others from a woodworking place
lasted a good two metres before I decided to replace them. They could
have
been used longer I'm sure but blades are cheap - worktops aren't.


Thanks, but I made a concious decision to steer clear of using a jigsaw. I
know quite a few people recommend it, but I usually find it impossible to
get a perpendicular cut on thick items - the blade always seems to wander
off on its own path on the underside.

The router with a jig to guide it sounds much more likely to work

Bob

"Bob" wrote in message
...

"G&M" wrote in message
...

"Bob" wrote in message
...
I'm getting ready to tackle the last big job in my kitchen
renovations -
fitting laminate worktops.
I'm hiring a jig and router for next weekend, and I'm fairly confident
I
can
make a good job of it. I do still have a couple of questions that I'm
sure
you guys can help with :-)

I had the same worries but on the advice here bought a very good jigsaw
(Bosch) with down-cutting blades. Change these the moment the work
seems
to be getting difficult. With the first sink the (crap B&Q) blades were
blunting in only a couple of feet but some others from a woodworking
place
lasted a good two metres before I decided to replace them. They could
have
been used longer I'm sure but blades are cheap - worktops aren't.


Thanks, but I made a concious decision to steer clear of using a jigsaw.
I
know quite a few people recommend it, but I usually find it impossible to
get a perpendicular cut on thick items - the blade always seems to wander
off on its own path on the underside.

The router with a jig to guide it sounds much more likely to work

Bob


I used a jigsaw with downward cutting blades. Because they cut on the push
stroke, they are made extra thick, and don't seem to bend like ordinary
blades.

Bob

I usually find it impossible to
get a perpendicular cut on thick items - the blade always seems to wander
off on its own path on the underside.


The secret is to steer by twisting the saw along the axis of the blade, and
resist any temptation to apply sideways forces (like you would to steer a panel
saw).

(To be a bit technical, pushing sideways creates a bending moment on the blade
between the top of the surface and the saw and this causes the blade to, well,
bend).

"OldScrawn" wrote in message
...
I usually find it impossible to
get a perpendicular cut on thick items - the blade always seems to
wander
off on its own path on the underside.


The secret is to steer by twisting the saw along the axis of the blade,
and
resist any temptation to apply sideways forces (like you would to steer a
panel
saw).

And to get a professional jigsaw. I never realised there was so much
difference until advised to do so here.

On Fri, 28 May 2004 19:39:00 +0100, "G&M" wrote:


"OldScrawn" wrote in message
...
I usually find it impossible to
get a perpendicular cut on thick items - the blade always seems to
wander
off on its own path on the underside.


The secret is to steer by twisting the saw along the axis of the blade,
and
resist any temptation to apply sideways forces (like you would to steer a
panel
saw).

And to get a professional jigsaw. I never realised there was so much
difference until advised to do so here.


Yep. Many have been surprised by this, including me.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 May 2004 19:39:00 +0100, "G&M" wrote:


"OldScrawn" wrote in message
...
I usually find it impossible to
get a perpendicular cut on thick items - the blade always seems to
wander
off on its own path on the underside.


The secret is to steer by twisting the saw along the axis of the blade,
and
resist any temptation to apply sideways forces (like you would to steer
a
panel
saw).

And to get a professional jigsaw. I never realised there was so much
difference until advised to do so here.


Yep. Many have been surprised by this, including me.


Well the bank holiday is over, and so are my kitchen worktop worries! This
was one job that I was a bit reluctant to tackle myself, so thanks to
everyone here for all the advice and encouragement.

The router and jig combination made cutting the mitres incredibly easy; the
simple straight cuts I did with a circular saw.

The joins are barely noticeable - easily as good as any professional would
have managed, and at a fraction of the cost. I am one happy DIYer this
morning :-)

The total cost for 42ft of Axiom gloss laminate worktop and the tool hire
came to £550, and the work involved cutting it into 8 runs including a
breakfast bar and two mitred joints. I'd hate to think what the labour cost
would have been even if I'd found anyone to do it!

As for the suggestion of using a jigsaw, I don't believe there is any way
that I could have achieved such a tight join with one. The blade would have
had to be perfectly vertical, with no bending, and I would have had to steer
it on a perfectly straight line - all things that I have never managed to do
before. In contrast, the jig that I hired (a good quality one by Trend) was
very simple and quick to set up, and the router breezed through making a
perfect cut without causing a single chip in the laminate.

The only hassle this weekend was with the new sink, which despite claiming
to fit a 1000mm unit, was actually 20mm too long - they obviously forgot
that the sides of base units are not infinitely thin, and that you lose 15mm
of that 1000 at each end! Anyway, after cutting the hole as long as I could
with a jigsaw, some careful use of the router managed to clear enough space
for the sink to fit.

So, based on my experience, I'd recommend the following to anyone else
wanting to do the same:

1) Use a jig and router for professional-looking mitred joints.

2) The other straight cuts can be done with a circular saw - always cut with
the worktop laminate side down, with the post-formed edge at the front.

3) Use biscuits to align the connecting pieces vertically.

4) Make sure the pieces are aligned properly before tightening up the
worktop connecting bolts, and don't do them up too tight - the chipboard
core will compress but the laminate won't! (I spotted this in time, so
didn't actually do any damage, but it would be easy to crack or lift the
laminate at the join if you're not careful)

5) Cut the worktops outside - the tools generate a tremendous amount of
sawdust!

6) If it's a sunny day, apply sunscreen - you'll be out there longer than
you think :-(

Bob
(Who now has a sunburnt head but a happy SWMBO!)

On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 11:59:05 +0100, "Bob"
wrote:




Well the bank holiday is over, and so are my kitchen worktop worries! This
was one job that I was a bit reluctant to tackle myself, so thanks to
everyone here for all the advice and encouragement.



Bob
(Who now has a sunburnt head but a happy SWMBO!)


Great result. Congratulations
















..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Bob wrote:


The total cost for 42ft of Axiom gloss laminate worktop and the tool
hire came to £550,

Just out of interest who did you hire the router and jig from, one of the
nationals or a local company, what was the cost and for how long, and did
they charge for the cutter or just a resharpening charge?

TIA

John

"Bob" wrote in message ...

2) The other straight cuts can be done with a circular saw - always cut with
the worktop laminate side down, with the post-formed edge at the front.

Congratulations on the project. It is satisfying!

Re circ cutting, I find putting a piece of hardboard or scrap wood
against the laminate side greatly reduces the chance of chipping. With
a circ cutting laminate, although the bulk of the forces push upwards,
the blade does still go down through the gap and can still chip if
youre unlucky, or not careful.

Regards, NT

"N. Thornton" wrote in message
om...
"Bob" wrote in message
...

2) The other straight cuts can be done with a circular saw - always cut
with
the worktop laminate side down, with the post-formed edge at the front.

Congratulations on the project. It is satisfying!

Re circ cutting, I find putting a piece of hardboard or scrap wood
against the laminate side greatly reduces the chance of chipping. With
a circ cutting laminate, although the bulk of the forces push upwards,
the blade does still go down through the gap and can still chip if
youre unlucky, or not careful.

Regards, NT

Chipping was the main thing I was concerned about, but in the end it just
didn't happen - even without using scrap wood. Both the router cutter and
saw blade were brand new, so were very sharp. The worktops are also good
quality, so the laminate is probably bonded more strongly to the chipboard
core.

Bob

"John" wrote in message
...
Bob wrote:


The total cost for 42ft of Axiom gloss laminate worktop and the tool
hire came to £550,

Just out of interest who did you hire the router and jig from, one of the
nationals or a local company, what was the cost and for how long, and did
they charge for the cutter or just a resharpening charge?


The tools came from a local independent - I'd probably never have known
about them if it hadn't been for a plasterer we had in once who told me
about them. They have always been excellent - they've always had everything
I've needed, and they are extremely helpful - pointing out things to avoid
etc. They are very different from the likes of HSS (and a lot cheaper
too!).

Because I had the tools from Friday morning until Tuesday morning, I ended
up paying the weekly rate (which with these guys is the cheapest option for
hires of more than 3 days). The jig was £44, the router £24, the
transformer (for the router) was free and the cutter was had replaceable
blades, so only cost £1.50 for a brand new one :-)

So I paid roughly £70 for the tool hire. If I'd done the job in one day,
the cost would have been about a third of that.

Bob

"Bob" wrote in message ...
"John" wrote in message
...
Bob wrote:


The total cost for 42ft of Axiom gloss laminate worktop and the tool
hire came to £550,

Just out of interest who did you hire the router and jig from, one of the
nationals or a local company, what was the cost and for how long, and did
they charge for the cutter or just a resharpening charge?


The tools came from a local independent - I'd probably never have known
about them if it hadn't been for a plasterer we had in once who told me
about them. They have always been excellent - they've always had everything
I've needed, and they are extremely helpful - pointing out things to avoid
etc. They are very different from the likes of HSS (and a lot cheaper
too!).

Because I had the tools from Friday morning until Tuesday morning, I ended
up paying the weekly rate (which with these guys is the cheapest option for
hires of more than 3 days). The jig was £44,

I did it by buying a brand new Trend jig and then selling it on Ebay
after I'd finished with it. Cost me slightly less overall and I knew
the jig would be in perfect condition.

MBQ

"MBQ" wrote in message
om...
"Bob" wrote in message
...
"John" wrote in message
...
Bob wrote:


The total cost for 42ft of Axiom gloss laminate worktop and the tool
hire came to £550,

Just out of interest who did you hire the router and jig from, one of
the
nationals or a local company, what was the cost and for how long, and
did
they charge for the cutter or just a resharpening charge?


The tools came from a local independent - I'd probably never have known
about them if it hadn't been for a plasterer we had in once who told me
about them. They have always been excellent - they've always had
everything
I've needed, and they are extremely helpful - pointing out things to
avoid
etc. They are very different from the likes of HSS (and a lot cheaper
too!).

Because I had the tools from Friday morning until Tuesday morning, I
ended
up paying the weekly rate (which with these guys is the cheapest option
for
hires of more than 3 days). The jig was £44,

I did it by buying a brand new Trend jig and then selling it on Ebay
after I'd finished with it. Cost me slightly less overall and I knew
the jig would be in perfect condition.


The hire shop made a special point of checking the condition of the jig -
and warned not to remove the router before it had stopped, and pointing out
that it was easily damaged otherwise. He said they often came back with
chunks missing, and that they had to be sent back to Trend for repair (and
that I'd lose the £75 deposit if I did it!)

I guess you just have to go to find a hire shop that actually cares about
the condition of what it's renting out.

Bob