My Ideal Isar has been a nightmare, having it's PCB replaced *six*
times during the warranty period. I should have signed up for more
cover of course but I felt that if it went again I would throw it out
the bathroom window onto the concrete driveway below, then go out and
buy a more reliable boiler...

Now I've had a nice new driveway installed, I don't want to dent it.
The f***ing thing has failed again and I need a new pcb (it has to be
that, there's no other electronics in the thing). Ideal want =A3170 to
visit (and hopefully fix it) - I can easily change the PCB myself but
who keeps them in stock (apart from Ideal themselves)? Or am I destined
to pay the =A3170?

Mike.

In message . com,
writes
My Ideal Isar has been a nightmare, having it's PCB replaced *six*
times during the warranty period. I should have signed up for more
cover of course but I felt that if it went again I would throw it out
the bathroom window onto the concrete driveway below, then go out and
buy a more reliable boiler...

Now I've had a nice new driveway installed, I don't want to dent it.
The f***ing thing has failed again and I need a new pcb (it has to be
that, there's no other electronics in the thing). Ideal want £170 to
visit (and hopefully fix it) - I can easily change the PCB myself but
who keeps them in stock (apart from Ideal themselves)? Or am I destined
to pay the £170?

Well I recon boiler pcbs, but have not built a test set for the Isar yet

.... www.keeptheheat ??

--
geoff

wrote in message
ups.com...
My Ideal Isar has been a nightmare, having it's PCB replaced *six*
times during the warranty period. I should have signed up for more
cover of course but I felt that if it went again I would throw it out
the bathroom window onto the concrete driveway below, then go out and
buy a more reliable boiler...

Now I've had a nice new driveway installed, I don't want to dent it.
The f***ing thing has failed again and I need a new pcb (it has to be
that, there's no other electronics in the thing). Ideal want £170 to
visit (and hopefully fix it) - I can easily change the PCB myself but
who keeps them in stock (apart from Ideal themselves)? Or am I destined
to pay the £170?

Cue Geoff (Raden) from CET............................................

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 21:52:03 +0000 (UTC), "John"
strung together this:

Cue Geoff (Raden) from CET............................................

He was here half an hour ago John. ;-)
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

wrote in message
ups.com...
My Ideal Isar has been a nightmare, having it's PCB replaced *six*
times during the warranty period. I should have signed up for more
cover of course but I felt that if it went again I would throw it out
the bathroom window onto the concrete driveway below, then go out and
buy a more reliable boiler...

Now I've had a nice new driveway installed, I don't want to dent it.
The f***ing thing has failed again and I need a new pcb (it has to be
that, there's no other electronics in the thing). Ideal want £170 to
visit (and hopefully fix it) - I can easily change the PCB myself but
who keeps them in stock (apart from Ideal themselves)? Or am I destined
to pay the £170?

Mike.

Get in touch with them. Send a letter to the MD. There is something
radically wrong with this boiler for this to happen. Is it spikes from the
power supply? If so they should have noticed after six pcb changes. The
engineers are irresponsible, as they should have brought this boiler to the
attention of the technical people at Ideal. Ideal engineers are generally
crap in my experience of them.

In message . com,
writes
My Ideal Isar has been a nightmare, having it's PCB replaced *six*
times during the warranty period. I should have signed up for more
cover of course but I felt that if it went again I would throw it out
the bathroom window onto the concrete driveway below, then go out and
buy a more reliable boiler...

Now I've had a nice new driveway installed, I don't want to dent it.
The f***ing thing has failed again and I need a new pcb (it has to be
that, there's no other electronics in the thing). Ideal want £170 to
visit (and hopefully fix it) - I can easily change the PCB myself but
who keeps them in stock (apart from Ideal themselves)? Or am I destined
to pay the £170?

I would put it to them that the replaced pcb should itself have a 12
month warranty period

Also remind them that the goods should be fit for the purpose. There
have been several threads in the past concerning white goods which
should last a certain number of years irrespective of the manufacturers
warranty

That said, I have dozens of ICOS / ISAR pcbs waiting for me to get a
test set sorted to repair them. They are really crap

--
geoff

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message . com,
writes
My Ideal Isar has been a nightmare, having it's PCB replaced *six*
times during the warranty period. I should have signed up for more
cover of course but I felt that if it went again I would throw it out
the bathroom window onto the concrete driveway below, then go out and
buy a more reliable boiler...

Now I've had a nice new driveway installed, I don't want to dent it.
The f***ing thing has failed again and I need a new pcb (it has to be
that, there's no other electronics in the thing). Ideal want £170 to
visit (and hopefully fix it) - I can easily change the PCB myself but
who keeps them in stock (apart from Ideal themselves)? Or am I destined
to pay the £170?

I would put it to them that the replaced pcb should itself have a 12
month warranty period

Also remind them that the goods should be fit for the purpose. There
have been several threads in the past concerning white goods which
should last a certain number of years irrespective of the manufacturers
warranty

That said, I have dozens of ICOS / ISAR pcbs waiting for me to get a
test set sorted to repair them. They are really crap

The pcb's or the boiler in general?

In message , IMM
writes
Also remind them that the goods should be fit for the purpose. There
have been several threads in the past concerning white goods which
should last a certain number of years irrespective of the manufacturers
warranty

That said, I have dozens of ICOS / ISAR pcbs waiting for me to get a
test set sorted to repair them. They are really crap

The pcb's or the boiler in general?

The PCBs or rather modules since they're contained in a plastic box

rarely pointed out in their advertising spiel, for some reason

--
geoff

I should have added that the boiler has worked ok for about a year
after the two years of problems, so it's unlikely that Ideal will
replace it now.

That said, I have dozens of ICOS / ISAR pcbs waiting for me to get a
test set sorted to repair them. They are really crap

--
geoff

Any chance you have a worker in that pile of pcbs?
I looked on www.keeptheheaton.com but they don't seem to stock them...

In message . com,
writes
I should have added that the boiler has worked ok for about a year
after the two years of problems, so it's unlikely that Ideal will
replace it now.

That said, I have dozens of ICOS / ISAR pcbs waiting for me to get a
test set sorted to repair them. They are really crap

--
geoff

Any chance you have a worker in that pile of pcbs?
I looked on www.keeptheheaton.com but they don't seem to stock them...

Quite possibly, but without being able to detect the flame (which for
some reason, I seem to be having a problem), it's impossible to tell.

Given this uncharacteristically mild weather, I might be able to sort
this out sooner rather than later


--
geoff

raden wrote:
I would put it to them that the replaced pcb should itself have a 12
month warranty period

Isn't it part of the consumer laws (or something) that if something is
repaired or replaced under warranty, then the repair or replacement is
only valid for the duration of the origonal warranty? So if I buy a
widget with a standard 12-month warranty, and it fails after 360 days
and I get it replaced, then I don't expect to get a further 12-month
warranty out of it?

Different matter for a paid-for repair or replacement undertaken out of
warranty.

David

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 09:23:50 GMT, Lobster
wrote:

raden wrote:
I would put it to them that the replaced pcb should itself have a 12
month warranty period

Isn't it part of the consumer laws (or something) that if something is
repaired or replaced under warranty, then the repair or replacement is
only valid for the duration of the origonal warranty? So if I buy a
widget with a standard 12-month warranty, and it fails after 360 days
and I get it replaced, then I don't expect to get a further 12-month
warranty out of it?

Different matter for a paid-for repair or replacement undertaken out of
warranty.

David

Nope. Warrranties are there as a convenience for the manufacturer
and/or retailer only. Consumer law is based more on reasonableness.
So if something has a warranty of a year, and could reasonably be
expected to last longer, then you could pursue the issue in the court.
If the product is a high end one, then it is more reasonable that it
should last longer than a cheap one.

Really all that a warranty achieves is a simple set of rules for
suppliers to use. Of course they also know that most consumers think
that that's it - a year is up and that's your lot. It may not be.

Warranties are used as a marketing tool as well where the supplier
thinks that it can be used to make an inferior product more attractive
(e.g. cheap power tools), or by a high end manufacturer to put some
space between them and their competition at low cost if they designed
and manufactured the product right.



--

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Might be worth writing to the MD then, you reckon? I'll give it a go.

Meanwhile it's bloody cold today... :-(

Andy Hall wrote:
On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 09:23:50 GMT, Lobster
wrote:

raden wrote:
I would put it to them that the replaced pcb should itself have a
12
month warranty period

Isn't it part of the consumer laws (or something) that if something
is
repaired or replaced under warranty, then the repair or replacement
is
only valid for the duration of the origonal warranty? So if I buy a

widget with a standard 12-month warranty, and it fails after 360
days
and I get it replaced, then I don't expect to get a further 12-month

warranty out of it?

Different matter for a paid-for repair or replacement undertaken out
of
warranty.

David

Nope. Warrranties are there as a convenience for the manufacturer
and/or retailer only. Consumer law is based more on
reasonableness.
So if something has a warranty of a year, and could reasonably be
expected to last longer, then you could pursue the issue in the
court.
If the product is a high end one, then it is more reasonable that it
should last longer than a cheap one.

Really all that a warranty achieves is a simple set of rules for
suppliers to use. Of course they also know that most consumers think
that that's it - a year is up and that's your lot. It may not be.

Warranties are used as a marketing tool as well where the supplier
thinks that it can be used to make an inferior product more
attractive
(e.g. cheap power tools), or by a high end manufacturer to put some
space between them and their competition at low cost if they designed
and manufactured the product right.



--

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

I tried to be sneaky and called Ideal claiming to be a Corgi registered
installer - Made no difference. Buggers still won't repair a pcb or
send a new one, only send their engineer (at an unspecified time) to
replace it while I'm not at home.

MJT Controls seem to sell them... for about =A3150 :-(

I took a good look at the pcb, checked there was mains going in to the
transformer, measured a few diodes and transistors etc. but my eyesight
is not up to dealing with surface mount stuff these days - Give me a
power driver board from a pinball machine any day!

What do you recommend Geoff?

raden wrote:
In message . com,
writes
I should have added that the boiler has worked ok for about a year
after the two years of problems, so it's unlikely that Ideal will
replace it now.

That said, I have dozens of ICOS / ISAR pcbs waiting for me to get
a
test set sorted to repair them. They are really crap

--
geoff

Any chance you have a worker in that pile of pcbs?
I looked on www.keeptheheaton.com but they don't seem to stock
them...

Quite possibly, but without being able to detect the flame (which for

some reason, I seem to be having a problem), it's impossible to tell.

Given this uncharacteristically mild weather, I might be able to sort
this out sooner rather than later
=20
=20
--=20
geoff

In article . com,
wrote:
I took a good look at the pcb, checked there was mains going in to the
transformer, measured a few diodes and transistors etc. but my eyesight
is not up to dealing with surface mount stuff these days - Give me a
power driver board from a pinball machine any day!

Assuming both your eyes are nearly the same, get a pair of powerful ready
made reading specs from Boots etc just for this sort of thing. Much more
useful than a magnifying glass. I've found +5 added your normal distance
prescription about right.

--
*Too many clicks spoil the browse *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

wrote in message
ups.com...
My Ideal Isar has been a nightmare, having it's PCB replaced *six*
times during the warranty period. I should have signed up for more
cover of course but I felt that if it went again I would throw it out
the bathroom window onto the concrete driveway below, then go out and
buy a more reliable boiler...

CET in Watford might be worth a try ... website www.cetltd.com

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:26:49 -0000, "Mike Faithfull"
strung together this:

CET in Watford might be worth a try ... website www.cetltd.com

Erm, you didn't read any of the other replies then? If you did you'd
notice Mr CET Ltd. himself is a regular on this group and is on with
assisting the OP.
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

In message . com,
writes
I tried to be sneaky and called Ideal claiming to be a Corgi registered
installer - Made no difference. Buggers still won't repair a pcb or
send a new one, only send their engineer (at an unspecified time) to
replace it while I'm not at home.

MJT Controls seem to sell them... for about £150 :-(

I took a good look at the pcb, checked there was mains going in to the
transformer, measured a few diodes and transistors etc. but my eyesight
is not up to dealing with surface mount stuff these days - Give me a
power driver board from a pinball machine any day!

What do you recommend Geoff?

Please don't top post

I have just had 20 of them come in from a customer. My hand might be
forced into sorting out this flame sensing problem in the coming week.


raden wrote:
In message . com,
writes
I should have added that the boiler has worked ok for about a year
after the two years of problems, so it's unlikely that Ideal will
replace it now.

That said, I have dozens of ICOS / ISAR pcbs waiting for me to get
a
test set sorted to repair them. They are really crap

--
geoff

Any chance you have a worker in that pile of pcbs?
I looked on www.keeptheheaton.com but they don't seem to stock
them...

Quite possibly, but without being able to detect the flame (which for

some reason, I seem to be having a problem), it's impossible to tell.

Given this uncharacteristically mild weather, I might be able to sort
this out sooner rather than later


--
geoff


--
geoff

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article . com,
wrote:
I took a good look at the pcb, checked there was mains going in to the
transformer, measured a few diodes and transistors etc. but my eyesight
is not up to dealing with surface mount stuff these days - Give me a
power driver board from a pinball machine any day!

Assuming both your eyes are nearly the same, get a pair of powerful ready
made reading specs from Boots etc just for this sort of thing. Much more
useful than a magnifying glass. I've found +5 added your normal distance
prescription about right.

But what are you expecting to see?

While big power components have the potential to go out spectacularly,
those carrying signals are much better at dying in a more discrete
manner

--
geoff

In message , Lobster
writes
raden wrote:
I would put it to them that the replaced pcb should itself have a 12
month warranty period

Isn't it part of the consumer laws (or something) that if something is
repaired or replaced under warranty, then the repair or replacement is
only valid for the duration of the origonal warranty? So if I buy a
widget with a standard 12-month warranty, and it fails after 360 days
and I get it replaced, then I don't expect to get a further 12-month
warranty out of it?


Well, as someone who has confidence in what I send out, if something
fails within 12 months, the replacement has a further 12 months warranty
on it.

I suppose Ideal are more interested in profit than quality and service
.... just like Potterton

--
geoff

In message , Mike
Faithfull writes
wrote in message
oups.com...
My Ideal Isar has been a nightmare, having it's PCB replaced *six*
times during the warranty period. I should have signed up for more
cover of course but I felt that if it went again I would throw it out
the bathroom window onto the concrete driveway below, then go out and
buy a more reliable boiler...

CET in Watford might be worth a try ... website www.cetltd.com

Cet's working on it

anything for a quiet life ...

--
geoff

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Lobster
writes
raden wrote:
I would put it to them that the replaced pcb should itself have a 12
month warranty period

Isn't it part of the consumer laws (or something) that if something is
repaired or replaced under warranty, then the repair or replacement is
only valid for the duration of the origonal warranty? So if I buy a
widget with a standard 12-month warranty, and it fails after 360 days
and I get it replaced, then I don't expect to get a further 12-month
warranty out of it?


Well, as someone who has confidence in what I send out, if something
fails within 12 months, the replacement has a further 12 months warranty
on it.

I suppose Ideal are more interested in profit than quality and service
... just like Potterton

Too true Maxie, too true.

try these guys , suppliers to the trade , but you can walk in , loads of branches ,
http://www.partscenter.co.uk/hrpc/default.html
they can supply anything , heating related .

"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 16:26:49 -0000, "Mike Faithfull"
strung together this:

CET in Watford might be worth a try ... website www.cetltd.com

Erm, you didn't read any of the other replies then? If you did you'd
notice Mr CET Ltd. himself is a regular on this group and is on with
assisting the OP.
--

I only discovered CET yesterday ... sorry if the fingers were quicker than
the brain - just trying to be helpful.

In message , Tony
writes

try these guys , suppliers to the trade , but you can walk in , loads
of
branches ,
http://www.partscenter.co.uk/hrpc/default.html
they can supply anything , heating related .


Well, they are the biggest CH merchants ( by a long way) in the UK

--
geoff

On Sat, 22 Jan 2005 23:21:15 -0000, "Mike Faithfull"
strung together this:

I only discovered CET yesterday ... sorry if the fingers were quicker than
the brain - just trying to be helpful.

Fairynuff, nothing personal!
--

SJW
Please reply to group or use 'usenet' in email subject

In article ,
raden wrote:
Assuming both your eyes are nearly the same, get a pair of powerful
ready made reading specs from Boots etc just for this sort of thing.
Much more useful than a magnifying glass. I've found +5 added your
normal distance prescription about right.

But what are you expecting to see?

I'm not expecting to 'see' anything. Just passing on a tip to those who
find it difficult to see such things through advancing years.

While big power components have the potential to go out spectacularly,
those carrying signals are much better at dying in a more discrete
manner

But if checking voltages, etc, it helps to see where you're probing?

--
*Taxation WITH representation ain't much fun, either.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

raden wrote:
In message , Tony
writes

try these guys , suppliers to the trade , but you can walk in ,
loads of branches , http://www.partscenter.co.uk/hrpc/default.html
they can supply anything , heating related .

Well, they are the biggest CH merchants (by a long way) in the UK

Judging by their website, they must be the same company or group as
www.plumbcenter.co.uk (I sometimes use their local branch). Out of
interest, what's the story, do you know? Plumbcenter do all the CH
stuff as well.

David

Partscentre do indeed have it on their website... for =A3200 :-(
I'll call CET in the morning and see what they say.
Thanks for all the advice guys.

Mike.

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
raden wrote:
Assuming both your eyes are nearly the same, get a pair of powerful
ready made reading specs from Boots etc just for this sort of thing.
Much more useful than a magnifying glass. I've found +5 added your
normal distance prescription about right.

But what are you expecting to see?

I'm not expecting to 'see' anything. Just passing on a tip to those who
find it difficult to see such things through advancing years.

While big power components have the potential to go out spectacularly,
those carrying signals are much better at dying in a more discrete
manner

But if checking voltages, etc, it helps to see where you're probing?


Aha, Alles Klar

I was more thinking about a visual inspection to look for damaged
components. However ... trying to fault find with the pcb in place,
attached to a loom with the boiler up and running, (this particular pcb
is inside a plastic case and the display / controls pcb is attached to
it), really isn't something which I would like to attempt. You can't
really test it any other way without a test rig


--
geoff

In message , Lobster
writes
raden wrote:
In message , Tony
writes

try these guys , suppliers to the trade , but you can walk in ,
loads of branches , http://www.partscenter.co.uk/hrpc/default.html
they can supply anything , heating related .
Well, they are the biggest CH merchants (by a long way) in the UK

Judging by their website, they must be the same company or group as
www.plumbcenter.co.uk (I sometimes use their local branch). Out of
interest, what's the story, do you know? Plumbcenter do all the CH
stuff as well.

I think the Wolsley group bought them out, more I don't really know
--
geoff

In message .com,
writes
Partscentre do indeed have it on their website... for £200 :-(
I'll call CET in the morning and see what they say.
Thanks for all the advice guys.

Just email me with your phone number and I'll give you a ring if I
manage to sort it out in the next day or so

--
geoff

raden wrote:
In message . com,
writes

My Ideal Isar has been a nightmare, having it's PCB replaced *six*
times during the warranty period.... Ideal want £170 to
visit (and hopefully fix it) - I can easily change the PCB myself but
who keeps them in stock (apart from Ideal themselves)? Or am I destined
to pay the £170?

... I have dozens of ICOS / ISAR pcbs waiting for me to get a
test set sorted to repair them. They are really crap

Any particular fault in common?

I've just been out to look at an ISAR whose PCB is blowing the fuse in
the mains FCU. Checked that it's not the inline filter or the switch:
I'm seeing about 3 ohms across L-N on the PCB/module connections with a
normal DMM (i.e. not a megger or anything stupid).

Have you seen this fault Geoff?

In article , John Stumbles
writes

I've just been out to look at an ISAR whose PCB is blowing the fuse in
the mains FCU. Checked that it's not the inline filter or the switch:
I'm seeing about 3 ohms across L-N on the PCB/module connections with a
normal DMM (i.e. not a megger or anything stupid).

I've not seen an Isar PCB, but in this case, assuming it has low voltage
circuitry supplied by a conventional linear or switching power supply,
would disconnect it from the boiler and do the usual checks on the
primary side of that (i.e. check bridge rectifiers, chopping transistors
if the supply is a switching type, etc.) 3 ohms is the sort of reading
you'd get when a semiconductor component has decided to let the magic
smoke out.

If the pump is run from the boiler (i.e. it has pump overrun), check
it's not a failed pump.

--
..sigmonster on vacation

Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , John Stumbles
writes


I've just been out to look at an ISAR whose PCB is blowing the fuse in
the mains FCU. Checked that it's not the inline filter or the switch:
I'm seeing about 3 ohms across L-N on the PCB/module connections with a
normal DMM (i.e. not a megger or anything stupid).


I've not seen an Isar PCB, but in this case, assuming it has low voltage
circuitry supplied by a conventional linear or switching power supply,
would disconnect it from the boiler and do the usual checks on the
primary side of that (i.e. check bridge rectifiers, chopping transistors
if the supply is a switching type, etc.) 3 ohms is the sort of reading
you'd get when a semiconductor component has decided to let the magic
smoke out.

If the pump is run from the boiler (i.e. it has pump overrun), check
it's not a failed pump.


checked with all other cables disconnected from pcb/control module and
it's still 3ohms. haven't opened up inside as there's a 'warranty void'
sticker over one of the screws and although the machine's out of
warranty soga still applies and I don't want to mess with it.

In message , John Stumbles
writes
raden wrote:
In message . com,
writes

My Ideal Isar has been a nightmare, having it's PCB replaced *six*
times during the warranty period.... Ideal want £170 to
visit (and hopefully fix it) - I can easily change the PCB myself but
who keeps them in stock (apart from Ideal themselves)? Or am I destined
to pay the £170?

... I have dozens of ICOS / ISAR pcbs waiting for me to get a test
set sorted to repair them. They are really crap

Any particular fault in common?

I've just been out to look at an ISAR whose PCB is blowing the fuse in
the mains FCU. Checked that it's not the inline filter or the switch:
I'm seeing about 3 ohms across L-N on the PCB/module connections with a
normal DMM (i.e. not a megger or anything stupid).

Have you seen this fault Geoff?

I mentioned earlier in the thread that for some reason I have a problem
with (simulating) flame detection, I don't know why. Without being able
to do this, I can't test the pcb other than it gets through part of the
sequence. I intend to have another go this week. If I have any success,
I'll report back. They do seem to be coming through thick and fast now

--
geoff