I'm just thinking about the cost etc of replacing our old wall hung Baxi
boiler. No urgent requirement for it to be replace, and therefore no real
plan - mainly just thinking about the sort of cost we may have to expect
should we need to do this sometime.

Currently we have a balanced flue (boiler on external wall in kitchen) with
feed/return and gas pipe coming down through the ceiling above (its a 3 bed
1930's semi).

What are the pros/cons of condensing boilers? Smelly flue gasses and mist,
along with higher efficiency.

To be honest, I don't like the ideas of newer boilers (fanned flues etc) as
all I seem to hear is "My PCB's blown again for the 3rd time, and at £150 to
replace its expensive" or "The fan's gone". Please convince me that new
boilers don't stop working after a few years, and have expensive
maintenance. I just seem to think that an old boiler will last longer than
a new boiler - and therefore I don't like them!

So - potentially could I purchase the boiler of my choice (and at my price!)
and get a fitter to fit it? Or am I best specifying to the fitter the
boiler I want, and getting him to get it with his discount?

Any recommendations for boilers (including condensing, but excluding
combi's) and their approximate cost. Excluding the cost of the boiler
itself, what sort of cost should I expect to have the boiler fitted.

Are there any issues with getting a boiler to work with the controls I
already have? I've got an old Potterton EP2001 and a new Solwise
programmable thermostat which I would very much like to keep (they do an
excellent job for what I want from the heating).

Basically, the boiler is old and I want an idea of the sort of cost I should
expect to replace it (boiler and installation), and a recommedation for some
good (reliable and efficient) boilers.

Thanks

D

--
To send email to me - remove references to NoSpam, and Spammer from my email
address.

"David Hearn" wrote in message
...

I'm just thinking about the cost etc of
replacing our old wall hung Baxi
boiler.

What are the pros/cons of condensing boilers?

In your case saving 30% plus in gas bills.

Smelly flue gasses and mist,

The fumes don't smell. The mist can be a problem. If not then fine.

To be honest, I don't like the ideas of
newer boilers (fanned flues etc) as
all I seem to hear is "My PCB's blown again
for the 3rd time, and at £150 to
replace its expensive" or "The fan's gone".
Please convince me that new
boilers don't stop working after a few years, and have expensive
maintenance.

These people have tended to buy the troublesome boilers. Fan flues have
been around for 30 years or more, and are virtually standard in all boilers
over the past 20 years. There are Lada's and RRs of the boiler world too.
On this forum you don't hear of the boilers that have gone along faultlessly
for 10-15 years, only the problem boilers. The nature of the group.

I just seem to think that an old boiler will last longer than
a new boiler - and therefore I don't like them!

Older boilrs had little inside them. The point is "new" boilers. "All"
have pcbs inside.

So - potentially could I purchase the boiler
of my choice (and at my price!)
and get a fitter to fit it? Or am I best specifying
to the fitter the boiler I want, and getting him
to get it with his discount?

Specify the boiler you are happy with. There are simple basic heating
boilers around. The new Wickes light cast-iron boilers (Halstead) are
simple, not modulating burners, but you still require pumps and zone valves
outside of it.

Any recommendations for boilers
(including condensing

Non-condensing:

- Heating boiler - Wickes light cast-iron (fanned flue & efficiency of
around 78-79% ) £399 40,000 BTU/h. This is a basic "heating" boiler. 2 yr
guarantee. Can be pressurised.

- System Boiler - The Vaillant Thermocompact RSF 615EH 22.3 - 51.200 Btu/h.
Price £446.50 Including VAT. Efficiency of
http://www.discountedheating.co.uk/s...gue_Thermocomp
act_119.html
This is a "system" boiler with built-in pressure vessel, pump, etc, with an
efficiency of around 80%. 2 yr guarantee on this the last time I looked

Condensing:

- Fully modulating System Boiler - Keston Celsius (fully modulating with
load compensation control) Expensive, but you get what you pay for. Many
happy owners on this ng.

- Fully modulating System Boiler - The Baxi condensing boiler is not bad
either.

- Fully modulating System Boiler - Any Vaillant, but expensive. So a few
hindered quid over, is that such a big deal?

- Non modulating Heating Boilers - There is only the Ravenheat CSI Primary
to my knowledge, there may be more. Can be pressurised or open vented. A
direct swap for many boilers. There may be others. Malvern do a
non-modulating condenser.

The Ideal condensers are having a bad time as they are having a lot of call
backs in the 1st year with BG. BG has stopped specifying them, although
still on their list. Those I have come across have been v good, so it may
be they are doing something wrong with the installation.

Fully modulating condensing system boilers are the better option.


---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.524 / Virus Database: 321 - Release Date: 06/10/2003

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:51:53 -0000, "David Hearn"
wrote:

I'm just thinking about the cost etc of replacing our old wall hung Baxi
boiler. No urgent requirement for it to be replace, and therefore no real
plan - mainly just thinking about the sort of cost we may have to expect
should we need to do this sometime.

Currently we have a balanced flue (boiler on external wall in kitchen) with
feed/return and gas pipe coming down through the ceiling above (its a 3 bed
1930's semi).

What are the pros/cons of condensing boilers? Smelly flue gasses and mist,
along with higher efficiency.

Well I think we've done that one to death in numerous posts. They
certainly can make the cost savings suggested on the SEDBUK site. I
am saving something between 25 and 30% of gas consumption, and have
actually added about 10% of heat output to warm my workshop for part
of the day.

Some types with premix burners (where the gas and air is mixed before
the burner) do release a little unburnt gas when igniting, but this is
seldom noticable. From the chemical perspective, the emissions of
NOx gases are way down on older boilers. Other than that the output
is water vapour. Depending on the boiler and operating conditions, a
condensing boiler will give a plume of water vapour at the outlet.
However, since they modulate down in output, most of the time this is
not substantial and with a well designed product, most of the water
vapour doesn't leave the boiler though the flue but is collected by
the drain.

At the present time there is a minimum SEDBUK efficiency of 78% as a
requirement for new boilers as part L1 of the Building Regulations.

There is a proposal (which you can find on the ODPM web site), to
raise this limit to 86% from April 2005.
This will effectively take all non-condensing boilers off the market
unless there is some technology miracle, because the highest is
currently 82%, whereas condensing technology achieves 90%+.


To be honest, I don't like the ideas of newer boilers (fanned flues etc) as
all I seem to hear is "My PCB's blown again for the 3rd time, and at £150 to
replace its expensive" or "The fan's gone". Please convince me that new
boilers don't stop working after a few years, and have expensive
maintenance. I just seem to think that an old boiler will last longer than
a new boiler - and therefore I don't like them!

A lot of this depends on the individual product and manufacturer. For
example, you will see Potterton regularly mentioned in dispatches with
certain products having a poor reliability in this regard. However,
keep in mind that some of the manufacturers like this have changed
hands sometimes numerous times over the last few years and often the
purchase has been for the brand name rather than the products. 20
years ago, Potterton had a good name for reliability, but this slipped
more recently. Keep in mind also that some manufacturers have much
larger installed bases than others for a variety of reasons.
Inevitably you will read of more failures of these.

Like anything else you do get what you pay for. If your objective is
to go for minimum initial outlay then you are not going to get the
best quality or longevity. The famous quote of John Ruskin, the
victorian philosopher certainly applies:

"It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When
you pay too much you lose a little money - that is all. When you pay
too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you
bought was incapable of of doing the thing it was bought to do.

The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and
getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder,
it is well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that,
you will have enough to pay for something better."

I generally adopt the latter philosophy because I would rather do
something once and well and move on to the next thing rather than
messing around.

You can buy a really cheap basic boiler, for £400 or so, but it is
not going to be great; you can go for a good condensing product like a
Keston, Vaillant or Ideal for £700-900, or a high end like a Micromat.
I did the last of these and the cost is north of £1k, but it's as
solidly engineered as a tank and came with a 5 yr parts and labour
warranty.




So - potentially could I purchase the boiler of my choice (and at my price!)
and get a fitter to fit it? Or am I best specifying to the fitter the
boiler I want, and getting him to get it with his discount?

Well you could buy yourself at a good price, but remember that the
fitter wants, quite reasonably to make a margin. The discount that
the fitter can get, or part of it will factor into it. You could try
getting two quotes of supply and fit or fit only, but don't be
surprised if the difference is not what you you think or if there is a
lack of interest in fit only.


Any recommendations for boilers (including condensing, but excluding
combi's) and their approximate cost. Excluding the cost of the boiler
itself, what sort of cost should I expect to have the boiler fitted.

Are there any issues with getting a boiler to work with the controls I
already have? I've got an old Potterton EP2001 and a new Solwise
programmable thermostat which I would very much like to keep (they do an
excellent job for what I want from the heating).

Basically, the boiler is old and I want an idea of the sort of cost I should
expect to replace it (boiler and installation), and a recommedation for some
good (reliable and efficient) boilers.

Thanks

D

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

What are the pros/cons of condensing boilers? Smelly flue gasses and mist,
along with higher efficiency.

The fumes don't smell. In fact, the flue gases are much cleaner than a
traditional boiler. The only difference is that the condensing boiler fumes
are visible simply due to the water, whilst the traditional fumes stink
because they are so environmentally dirty. There are far fewer nasties in
condensing plumes.

To be honest, I don't like the ideas of newer boilers (fanned flues etc) as
all I seem to hear is "My PCB's blown again for the 3rd time, and at £150
to
replace its expensive" or "The fan's gone".

20-30% greater efficiency pays for a lot of PCBs. Choose a decent make and
you won't get these problems. Don't choose a make based on what cast iron
dinosaurs the companies made in 1965. Modern condensing boilers are almost
identical to other modern boilers in terms of complexity. The only
differences are in the heat exchanger, condensate drainage and slightly more
complicated internal programming.

Basically, the boiler is old and I want an idea of the sort of cost I
should
expect to replace it (boiler and installation),

Around 1200 +/- 200 quid for a reputable local installer (but may be
difficult to find one able to do it). Around 2500 for BG or other national.

and a recommedation for some good (reliable and efficient) boilers.

Ideal Icos
Worcester Bosch Greenstar 28HE System
Keston Celcius 25

In any case, the boiler MUST have a downward firing burner onto a single
heat exchanger. Anything less will give you grief.

Christian.

"IMM" wrote in message
...
"David Hearn" wrote in message
...

I'm just thinking about the cost etc of
replacing our old wall hung Baxi
boiler.

What are the pros/cons of condensing boilers?

In your case saving 30% plus in gas bills.

Smelly flue gasses and mist,

The fumes don't smell. The mist can be a problem. If not then fine.

Hmm, our old neighbours one smelled distinctively of gas (well, faintly of
gas, but enough to notice), and when I read about it on here
(http://www.bryantplumbingandheating.com/condensers.htm) I just guessed it
must have been a condensing one.

To be honest, I don't like the ideas of
newer boilers (fanned flues etc) as
all I seem to hear is "My PCB's blown again
for the 3rd time, and at £150 to
replace its expensive" or "The fan's gone".
Please convince me that new
boilers don't stop working after a few years, and have expensive
maintenance.

These people have tended to buy the troublesome boilers. Fan flues have
been around for 30 years or more, and are virtually standard in all
boilers
over the past 20 years. There are Lada's and RRs of the boiler world too.
On this forum you don't hear of the boilers that have gone along
faultlessly
for 10-15 years, only the problem boilers. The nature of the group.

True.

I just seem to think that an old boiler will last longer than
a new boiler - and therefore I don't like them!

Older boilrs had little inside them. The point is "new" boilers. "All"
have pcbs inside.

I guess I like the idea of something that's easy to diagnose myself when
things go wrong, and I won't be fleeced by a Corgi taking a deep breath in
and picking a large number out the air for fixing. With new boilers, lots
of things I guess are computer controlled with more wizardry under the hood.
But as you say, a new boiler is going to have this regardless.

So - potentially could I purchase the boiler
of my choice (and at my price!)
and get a fitter to fit it? Or am I best specifying
to the fitter the boiler I want, and getting him
to get it with his discount?

Specify the boiler you are happy with. There are simple basic heating
boilers around. The new Wickes light cast-iron boilers (Halstead) are
simple, not modulating burners, but you still require pumps and zone
valves
outside of it.

Pumps and zone valves are already in place and working. If I could keep
what I've got that would be great.

snip

This is a "system" boiler with built-in pressure vessel, pump, etc, with
an
efficiency of around 80%. 2 yr guarantee on this the last time I looked

Ahh, as I'd like to keep my existing pump etc (its working, why replace it,
and its easy enough to replace myself if necessary) am I therefore
restricting myself to not having a system boiler? Are there any modulating
non-system boilers out there?

Fully modulating condensing system boilers are the better option.

Modulating means that it'll change the BTU setting depending on the demand?
Sounds a nice idea.

Thanks for the help - its certainly made me more aware of what's out there
and what things mean.

D

Ahh, as I'd like to keep my existing pump etc (its working, why replace it,
and its easy enough to replace myself if necessary) am I therefore
restricting myself to not having a system boiler? Are there any modulating
non-system boilers out there?

Yes. The Ideal Icos might be ideal for you (excuse the pun). It is available
without pump and will run on a feed/expansion tank. (I wouldn't recommend
doing so, though, as sealed pressurised operation is better).

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
Ahh, as I'd like to keep my existing pump etc (its working, why replace
it,
and its easy enough to replace myself if necessary) am I therefore
restricting myself to not having a system boiler? Are there any
modulating
non-system boilers out there?

Yes. The Ideal Icos might be ideal for you (excuse the pun). It is
available
without pump and will run on a feed/expansion tank. (I wouldn't recommend
doing so, though, as sealed pressurised operation is better).

Hmm, what sort of work is needed to convert from feed/expansion to sealed
pressurised? What sort of benefits can be gained? And why isn't it
recommended?

Thanks

D

Hmm, what sort of work is needed to convert from feed/expansion to
sealed pressurised? What sort of benefits can be gained? And why
isn't it recommended?

Feed/expansion tanks have all sorts of problems associated. They pump over,
give unlimited water leakage when a joint goes, introduce air into the
system etc...

See the bottom of Ed Sirett's sig for more information.

Christian.

"David Hearn" wrote in message
...

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
Ahh, as I'd like to keep my existing pump etc (its working, why replace
it,
and its easy enough to replace myself if necessary) am I therefore
restricting myself to not having a system boiler? Are there any
modulating
non-system boilers out there?

Yes. The Ideal Icos might be ideal for you (excuse the pun). It is
available
without pump and will run on a feed/expansion tank. (I wouldn't
recommend
doing so, though, as sealed pressurised operation is better).

Hmm, what sort of work is needed to convert from feed/expansion to sealed
pressurised? What sort of benefits can be gained? And why isn't it
recommended?

Simple. Just remove the old pump and insert a piece of pipe. Connect up
the system boiler to the old pipes in the same position. You will need to
runs a 15mm cold water mains pipe to boiler for the filling loop. You need
to run a plastic pipe from the boiler to a drain if it is a condensing
model. The filling loop can be elsewhere on the system, but you must be
able to see a pressure gauge when filling.

Remove the F&E tank and cap up the pipes. Better put an auto air-vent in
the old open vent pipe, below the loft level


---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.524 / Virus Database: 321 - Release Date: 06/10/2003

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

At the present time there is a minimum SEDBUK efficiency of 78% as a
requirement for new boilers as part L1 of the Building Regulations.

There is a proposal (which you can find on the ODPM web site), to
raise this limit to 86% from April 2005.
This will effectively take all non-condensing boilers off the market
unless there is some technology miracle, because the highest is
currently 82%, whereas condensing technology achieves 90%+.

82% non-condensing? The CPSU Powermax has been discontinued and replaced by
an a unvented cylinder version, now being termed a "combi".

The max non-condensing efficiency is the Radiant RMAS 21 E/3S combi at just
under 81%.

This is rather academic as "peak" efficiencies may be 90-91 %. If a system
is engineered to attain that as mating it to a thermals store, then SEDBUK
is only a real rough guide. SEDBUK is being replaced by an EU method.



---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.524 / Virus Database: 321 - Release Date: 06/10/2003

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...

Modern condensing boilers are almost
identical to other modern boilers in terms of
complexity. The only differences are in the
heat exchanger, condensate drainage and slightly more
complicated internal programming.

Not all condensing boiler have internal programming. Some are quite basic
and with on-off burners.

Ideal Icos
Worcester Bosch Greenstar 28HE System
Keston Celcius 25

In any case, the boiler MUST have a downward firing burner onto a single
heat exchanger. Anything less will give you grief.

Good point.


---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.524 / Virus Database: 321 - Release Date: 06/10/2003

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 15:08:50 -0000, "David Hearn"
wrote:


"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
Ahh, as I'd like to keep my existing pump etc (its working, why replace
it,
and its easy enough to replace myself if necessary) am I therefore
restricting myself to not having a system boiler? Are there any
modulating
non-system boilers out there?

Yes. The Ideal Icos might be ideal for you (excuse the pun). It is
available
without pump and will run on a feed/expansion tank. (I wouldn't recommend
doing so, though, as sealed pressurised operation is better).

Some system boilers with integral pump have the pump under control of
the electronics as well. Either it is three steps like an external
pump or continuously over a range.

This is beneficial because the flow can be adjusted automatically as
the heat load varies - e.g. as the TRVs operate and provides improved
control and quieter operation.


Hmm, what sort of work is needed to convert from feed/expansion to sealed
pressurised? What sort of benefits can be gained? And why isn't it
recommended?

There are a lot of benefits such as

- easier cleaning
- limited water escape if there's a leak.
- no opportunity for air to enter to corrode the system
- easier to eliminate air for bleeding.

Some boilers will work unpressurised but increasingly pressurised
operation is mandated. Most boilers for sealed operation include
the expansion vessel and controls either inside or as a kit.
Ed's FAQ has more details......







Thanks

D


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 15:50:18 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

At the present time there is a minimum SEDBUK efficiency of 78% as a
requirement for new boilers as part L1 of the Building Regulations.

There is a proposal (which you can find on the ODPM web site), to
raise this limit to 86% from April 2005.
This will effectively take all non-condensing boilers off the market
unless there is some technology miracle, because the highest is
currently 82%, whereas condensing technology achieves 90%+.

82% non-condensing? The CPSU Powermax has been discontinued and replaced by
an a unvented cylinder version, now being termed a "combi".

The max non-condensing efficiency is the Radiant RMAS 21 E/3S combi at just
under 81%.

This is rather academic as "peak" efficiencies may be 90-91 %. If a system
is engineered to attain that as mating it to a thermals store, then SEDBUK
is only a real rough guide. SEDBUK is being replaced by an EU method.



Take a look at the SEDBUK database and select non-condensing boilers
and you'll see what I mean. There's no point in arguing about 1%
anyway because of the measurement statistical methods.







---

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 14:23:35 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:


In any case, the boiler MUST have a downward firing burner onto a single
heat exchanger. Anything less will give you grief.


I guess that you are thinking of the older dual heat exchanger jobs?


Mine has a cylindrical heat exchanger like a drum with pipes inside
around the edge and the burner being a mesh affair at the centre. In
effect, the heat is exchanged radially from the burner at the centre.

Condensate happens around the periphery and runs to the drain sump.

The whole assembly is stainless steel, of course.

Viessmann uses a similar arrangement to MAN Heiztechnik of the Econox
type burner in their Vitodens 200.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Mine has a cylindrical heat exchanger like a drum with pipes inside
around the edge and the burner being a mesh affair at the centre. In
effect, the heat is exchanged radially from the burner at the centre.

Well that sounds like a reasonable burner arrangement too. I was under the
impression that some boilers used the burner underneath method, where, in a
condenser, it gets a nice shower of acid.

Christian.

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:39:47 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Mine has a cylindrical heat exchanger like a drum with pipes inside
around the edge and the burner being a mesh affair at the centre. In
effect, the heat is exchanged radially from the burner at the centre.

Well that sounds like a reasonable burner arrangement too. I was under the
impression that some boilers used the burner underneath method, where, in a
condenser, it gets a nice shower of acid.

Christian.


Sure. I know that some of the older ones that had secondary heat
exchangers did.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:39:47 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

Mine has a cylindrical heat exchanger like a drum with pipes inside
around the edge and the burner being a mesh affair at the centre. In
effect, the heat is exchanged radially from the burner at the centre.

Well that sounds like a reasonable burner arrangement too. I was under
the
impression that some boilers used the burner underneath method, where, in
a
condenser, it gets a nice shower of acid.

Christian.


Sure. I know that some of the older ones that had secondary heat
exchangers did.

Mine has a bottom mounted pre-mix burner and it's a condensing boiler. the
condensate occurs at the heat exchanger edges.


---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.524 / Virus Database: 321 - Release Date: 06/10/2003

"David Hearn" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...
"David Hearn" wrote in message
...

I'm just thinking about the cost etc of
replacing our old wall hung Baxi
boiler.

What are the pros/cons of condensing boilers?

In your case saving 30% plus in gas bills.

Smelly flue gasses and mist,

The fumes don't smell. The mist can be a problem. If not then fine.

Hmm, our old neighbours one smelled distinctively of gas (well, faintly of
gas, but enough to notice), and when I read about it on here
(http://www.bryantplumbingandheating.com/condensers.htm) I just guessed it

Excellent website, in general, but I wonder about that remark of his about
condensing boilers smelling: I understood they typically have much lower
emissions than conventional types. I've certainly noticed smells from
conventional boilers' flues.


To be honest, I don't like the ideas of
newer boilers (fanned flues etc) as
all I seem to hear is "My PCB's blown again
for the 3rd time, and at £150 to
replace its expensive" or "The fan's gone".
Please convince me that new
boilers don't stop working after a few years, and have expensive
maintenance.

I guess I like the idea of something that's easy to diagnose myself when
things go wrong, and I won't be fleeced by a Corgi taking a deep breath in
and picking a large number out the air for fixing. With new boilers, lots
of things I guess are computer controlled with more wizardry under the
hood.
But as you say, a new boiler is going to have this regardless.

However modern boiler manuals tend to have fairly comprehensive
fault-finding guides.
Some are even accurate :-)

And you can get (some boilers') manuals from their manufacturers' websites.


--
John Stumbles
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
-+
procrastinate now!

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 17:39:47 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

Mine has a cylindrical heat exchanger like a drum with pipes inside
around the edge and the burner being a mesh affair at the centre. In
effect, the heat is exchanged radially from the burner at the centre.

Well that sounds like a reasonable burner arrangement too. I was under the
impression that some boilers used the burner underneath method, where, in a
condenser, it gets a nice shower of acid.


I think if there were an award for worst boiler ever it would have to be
the Poxi- Batterton Barcelona condensing boiler. This would probably get
awards in both the design and reliability classes.

Needless to say among the many a varied design flaws in the boiler is the
updraft premix burner.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:18:50 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:51:53 -0000, "David Hearn"
wrote:

I'm just thinking about the cost etc of replacing our old wall hung Baxi
boiler. No urgent requirement for it to be replace, and therefore no real
plan - mainly just thinking about the sort of cost we may have to expect
should we need to do this sometime.

Currently we have a balanced flue (boiler on external wall in kitchen) with
feed/return and gas pipe coming down through the ceiling above (its a 3 bed
1930's semi).

What are the pros/cons of condensing boilers? Smelly flue gasses and mist,
along with higher efficiency.

Well I think we've done that one to death in numerous posts. They
certainly can make the cost savings suggested on the SEDBUK site. I
am saving something between 25 and 30% of gas consumption, and have
actually added about 10% of heat output to warm my workshop for part
of the day.

Some types with premix burners (where the gas and air is mixed before
the burner) do release a little unburnt gas when igniting, but this is
seldom noticable. From the chemical perspective, the emissions of
NOx gases are way down on older boilers. Other than that the output
is water vapour. Depending on the boiler and operating conditions, a
condensing boiler will give a plume of water vapour at the outlet.
However, since they modulate down in output, most of the time this is
not substantial and with a well designed product, most of the water
vapour doesn't leave the boiler though the flue but is collected by
the drain.

At the present time there is a minimum SEDBUK efficiency of 78% as a
requirement for new boilers as part L1 of the Building Regulations.

There is a proposal (which you can find on the ODPM web site), to
raise this limit to 86% from April 2005.
This will effectively take all non-condensing boilers off the market
unless there is some technology miracle, because the highest is
currently 82%, whereas condensing technology achieves 90%+.



This means that I'm going to have to find a favourite condensing combi.
I feel content with the Vaillant Ecomax products but they are seriously
expensive at over £1k trade price.
I guess the Ideal ICOS might be OK. Could try out the Glow Worm cxi range.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 23:43:42 +0000, "Ed Sirett"
wrote:



This means that I'm going to have to find a favourite condensing combi.
I feel content with the Vaillant Ecomax products but they are seriously
expensive at over £1k trade price.

Customers should feel content as well.

Looking at Discounted Heating's prices, the Ecomax models are
compressed to a £100 range from smallest to largest, which I suppose
is not that surprising. 828 is £1090 inc.



I guess the Ideal ICOS might be OK.

Isar is about £750 inc for a 29kW job

Could try out the Glow Worm cxi range.

After my last Glow Worm, I wouldn't buy another of their products.
Unless they have substantially improved, it was very cheap sheet metal
bashing with sharp edges and all that went with it. On the occasions
when I cleaned it, I would inevitably cut myself on some bit of metal
or other. The 38cxi is £910 inc.; the 30cxi is £700 inc.

I suspect that the price premium for the Vaillant is worth it.

However, once the game changes, and volumes increase on condensing
products, the prices will almost certainly drop. In reality there
is not a huge manufactuing cost difference compared with conventional
boilers. The marketing game will change as well and manufacturers
will have to sell on controls and build quality because the efficiency
will be very close between products.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:18:50 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:51:53 -0000, "David Hearn"
wrote:

I'm just thinking about the cost etc of replacing our old wall hung Baxi
boiler. No urgent requirement for it to be replace, and therefore no
real
plan - mainly just thinking about the sort of cost we may have to expect
should we need to do this sometime.

Currently we have a balanced flue (boiler on external wall in kitchen)
with
feed/return and gas pipe coming down through the ceiling above (its a 3
bed
1930's semi).

What are the pros/cons of condensing boilers? Smelly flue gasses and
mist,
along with higher efficiency.

Well I think we've done that one to death in numerous posts. They
certainly can make the cost savings suggested on the SEDBUK site. I
am saving something between 25 and 30% of gas consumption, and have
actually added about 10% of heat output to warm my workshop for part
of the day.

Some types with premix burners (where the gas and air is mixed before
the burner) do release a little unburnt gas when igniting, but this is
seldom noticable. From the chemical perspective, the emissions of
NOx gases are way down on older boilers. Other than that the output
is water vapour. Depending on the boiler and operating conditions, a
condensing boiler will give a plume of water vapour at the outlet.
However, since they modulate down in output, most of the time this is
not substantial and with a well designed product, most of the water
vapour doesn't leave the boiler though the flue but is collected by
the drain.

At the present time there is a minimum SEDBUK efficiency of 78% as a
requirement for new boilers as part L1 of the Building Regulations.

There is a proposal (which you can find on the ODPM web site), to
raise this limit to 86% from April 2005.
This will effectively take all non-condensing boilers off the market
unless there is some technology miracle, because the highest is
currently 82%, whereas condensing technology achieves 90%+.



This means that I'm going to have to find a favourite condensing combi.
I feel content with the Vaillant Ecomax products but they are seriously
expensive at over £1k trade price.
I guess the Ideal ICOS might be OK. Could try out the Glow Worm cxi range.

What about the Vaillant THERMOcompact? Am I right in saying that this is
their non-combi boiler? Seems its priced between £460 inc VAT (but
excluding flue and timer) for 615E and £721 for 628E. Am I right in saying
that Vaillant is a good make then?

What would I expect for a fitter to supply and fit a boiler I could buy for
£720 myself? Okay, they get to pocket the discount or whatever, but what
should I be expecting to get it supplied and fitted? £1k total, £1.5k?
Realistically, there shouldn't be much work to replacing a boiler should
there? From what I read about the Vaillant, it said "Installing a
THERMOcompact means a real saving all round. Typically, the additional
components required to fit a conventional boiler can add over £50, with
extra installation time of around 1.5 hours." AFAIK, its just disconnect
the old boiler, put up new boiler. Wire in, plumb in and test. Of course,
that's a very simple look at it, but there shouldn't be any/much more
plumbing necessary. If there was, (like removing header tank or something)
then I could do that before hand.

Thanks for all the help - its been really helpful.

D

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 11:50:40 +0000, David Hearn wrote:


"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 14:18:50 +0000, Andy Hall wrote:

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:51:53 -0000, "David Hearn"
wrote:

I'm just thinking about the cost etc of replacing our old wall hung Baxi
boiler. No urgent requirement for it to be replace, and therefore no
real
plan - mainly just thinking about the sort of cost we may have to expect
should we need to do this sometime.

Currently we have a balanced flue (boiler on external wall in kitchen)
with
feed/return and gas pipe coming down through the ceiling above (its a 3
bed
1930's semi).

What are the pros/cons of condensing boilers? Smelly flue gasses and
mist,
along with higher efficiency.

Well I think we've done that one to death in numerous posts. They
certainly can make the cost savings suggested on the SEDBUK site. I
am saving something between 25 and 30% of gas consumption, and have
actually added about 10% of heat output to warm my workshop for part
of the day.

Some types with premix burners (where the gas and air is mixed before
the burner) do release a little unburnt gas when igniting, but this is
seldom noticable. From the chemical perspective, the emissions of
NOx gases are way down on older boilers. Other than that the output
is water vapour. Depending on the boiler and operating conditions, a
condensing boiler will give a plume of water vapour at the outlet.
However, since they modulate down in output, most of the time this is
not substantial and with a well designed product, most of the water
vapour doesn't leave the boiler though the flue but is collected by
the drain.

At the present time there is a minimum SEDBUK efficiency of 78% as a
requirement for new boilers as part L1 of the Building Regulations.

There is a proposal (which you can find on the ODPM web site), to
raise this limit to 86% from April 2005.
This will effectively take all non-condensing boilers off the market
unless there is some technology miracle, because the highest is
currently 82%, whereas condensing technology achieves 90%+.



This means that I'm going to have to find a favourite condensing combi.
I feel content with the Vaillant Ecomax products but they are seriously
expensive at over £1k trade price.
I guess the Ideal ICOS might be OK. Could try out the Glow Worm cxi range.

What about the Vaillant THERMOcompact? Am I right in saying that this is
their non-combi boiler? Seems its priced between £460 inc VAT (but
excluding flue and timer) for 615E and £721 for 628E. Am I right in saying
that Vaillant is a good make then?

I think you mean the Turbomax+ range - this is the stock in trade for me [1]
These boilers are some of the best of the non-condensing units available
but these will not comply with the eventual requirements which effectively
means that only the condensing units will be permitted. [2]


What would I expect for a fitter to supply and fit a boiler I could buy for
£720 myself? Okay, they get to pocket the discount or whatever, but what
should I be expecting to get it supplied and fitted? £1k total, £1.5k?
Realistically, there shouldn't be much work to replacing a boiler should
there? From what I read about the Vaillant, it said "Installing a
THERMOcompact means a real saving all round. Typically, the additional
components required to fit a conventional boiler can add over £50, with
extra installation time of around 1.5 hours." AFAIK, its just disconnect
the old boiler, put up new boiler. Wire in, plumb in and test. Of course,
that's a very simple look at it, but there shouldn't be any/much more
plumbing necessary. If there was, (like removing header tank or something)
then I could do that before hand.

Thanks for all the help - its been really helpful.


The plumbing aspect is actualy a very small part of installing a new
boiler. As often as not the combi is replacing a conventional system there
are cylinders to remove and new connections to make. (Ideally you want to
change the gravity CW to mains to balance any mixer taps and often as not
you'll need to change the WC cistern valve - also you might have a leak
on the old plumbing when subject to mains).
7
A considerable amount of work can be involved in making good the old
balanced flue hole ( OK less up-market installers will leave the metal
work in place and just bung some foam in it).

A considerable job is the flushing out of the old system especially if it
died due to corrosion. The there is the upgrading of the gas main to
support 26kW input or more. The flushing again with chemicals and adding
inhibitor.

Don't forget the filling in of the Benchmark log book - if that's done
properly with measurement of temperatures, flow rates and gas rates it
takes a fair while.

Then there is the likely hood that the old system had problems:
Some places too hot, others too cold, other rooms needing TRVs to comply
with building regs. Needless to say the new system will need to be
balanced (the old one may have been really unbalanced), that takes time
even with a IR thermometer.

I charge around about 1000 labour to fit a new boiler give or take.
A good 4 days work if done properly. Combi to combi can still take
2.5 days.

[1] Well nearly - I'm tempted to keep a 824e in my store all the while
just so I can respond more quickly to emergencies.
[2] I know there are ways to be able to fit a low efficiency boiler but
I expect they are too difficult to calculate easily whilst estimating a
quote.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"John Stumbles" ] wrote in message
...
"David Hearn" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...
"David Hearn" wrote in message
...

I'm just thinking about the cost etc of
replacing our old wall hung Baxi
boiler.

What are the pros/cons of condensing boilers?

In your case saving 30% plus in gas bills.

Smelly flue gasses and mist,

The fumes don't smell. The mist can be a problem. If not then fine.

Hmm, our old neighbours one smelled distinctively of gas (well, faintly
of
gas, but enough to notice), and when I read about it on here
(http://www.bryantplumbingandheating.com/condensers.htm) I just guessed
it

Excellent website, in general,
It said:


3) New technology. Any new technology tends to be less reliable than
conventional tried-and-tested equipment. I doubt if condensing boilers will
prove to be any different. Finding a heating engineer to repair one may also
prove more difficult as they are not widely understood by all heating
engineers yet.


This is balls. My condensing boilers is the same as any non-condensing
boiler in controls, except it has a condensate drain. "Less reliable", he
said. I think he needs to get to know more about condensing boilers.
Condensing boilers have been around for the best part of 20 years in the Uk
and further 10 more on the Continent.



---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.524 / Virus Database: 321 - Release Date: 07/10/2003

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 17:39:47 +0000, Christian McArdle wrote:

Mine has a cylindrical heat exchanger like a drum with pipes inside
around the edge and the burner being a mesh affair at the centre. In
effect, the heat is exchanged radially from the burner at the centre.

Well that sounds like a reasonable burner arrangement too. I was under
the
impression that some boilers used the burner underneath method, where,
in a
condenser, it gets a nice shower of acid.


I think if there were an award for worst boiler ever it would have to be
the Poxi- Batterton Barcelona condensing boiler. This would probably get
awards in both the design and reliability classes.

I think you mean the Potterton, I think Excel? Useless. the Barcelona was
made by Baxi and is now the Baxi something else. It wasn't bad at all.

Needless to say among the many a varied design flaws in the boiler is the
updraft premix burner.

I have to agree. Yet mine works well, gives no trouble and condensate does
not lodge on the burner corroding it.



---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.524 / Virus Database: 321 - Release Date: 07/10/2003

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 23:43:42 +0000, "Ed Sirett"
wrote:



This means that I'm going to have to find a favourite condensing combi.
I feel content with the Vaillant Ecomax products but they are seriously
expensive at over £1k trade price.

Customers should feel content as well.

Looking at Discounted Heating's prices, the Ecomax models are
compressed to a £100 range from smallest to largest, which I suppose
is not that surprising. 828 is £1090 inc.



I guess the Ideal ICOS might be OK.

Isar is about £750 inc for a 29kW job

Could try out the Glow Worm cxi range.

After my last Glow Worm, I wouldn't buy another of their products.
Unless they have substantially improved, it was very cheap sheet metal
bashing with sharp edges and all that went with it. On the occasions
when I cleaned it, I would inevitably cut myself on some bit of metal
or other. The 38cxi is £910 inc.; the 30cxi is £700 inc.

Many of the Glow Worms have stainless steel heat exchangers.


---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.524 / Virus Database: 321 - Release Date: 07/10/2003

On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 00:19:32 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


Many of the Glow Worms have stainless steel heat exchangers.

You can put petrol in a Skoda and double its value, fit twin exhausts
and use it additionally as a wheelbarrow, but I still wouldn't buy
one.....

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 00:19:32 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


Many of the Glow Worms have stainless steel heat exchangers.

You can put petrol in a Skoda and double its value, fit twin exhausts
and use it additionally as a wheelbarrow, but I still wouldn't buy
one.....

They are better made than yesteryear and carry a 2 yr guarantee last time I
looked


---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.524 / Virus Database: 321 - Release Date: 07/10/2003

On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 01:07:33 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 00:19:32 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


Many of the Glow Worms have stainless steel heat exchangers.

You can put petrol in a Skoda and double its value, fit twin exhausts
and use it additionally as a wheelbarrow, but I still wouldn't buy
one.....

They are better made than yesteryear and carry a 2 yr guarantee last time I
looked


Was this the 16 valve version? 4 in the engine, 12 in the radio?

.... put up the radio antenna and it becomes a dodgem :-)


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news

I think if there were an award for worst boiler ever it would have to be
the Poxi- Batterton Barcelona condensing boiler. This would probably get
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

ROFL!



--
John Stumbles
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
-+

"John Stumbles" ] wrote in message
...
"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news

I think if there were an award for worst boiler ever it would have to be
the Poxi- Batterton Barcelona condensing boiler. This would probably get
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

ROFL!

John Stumbles


ROFLMAO !!!

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...

Many of the Glow Worms have stainless
steel heat exchangers.

You can put petrol in a Skoda and double its value, fit twin exhausts
and use it additionally as a wheelbarrow, but I still wouldn't buy
one.....

They are better made than yesteryear and
carry a 2 yr guarantee last time I looked

Was this the 16 valve version?

Glow Worm are part of the Vaillant Hepworth group. Vaillant and Glow Worm
are the same company. The condensing Glow Worms are made in Holland and
have spiral tube stainless steel heat exchangers - similar to the
ECO-Hometec (MAN). The heat exchangers have been used in some Dutch, and I
think Vaillant models, the last I heard/read. They are very good value for
money and are up there in the Prem League.

Don't judge them on what they made 15-20-25 years ago.



---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.524 / Virus Database: 321 - Release Date: 07/10/2003

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 01:32:59 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

Many of the Glow Worms have stainless
steel heat exchangers.

You can put petrol in a Skoda and double its value, fit twin exhausts
and use it additionally as a wheelbarrow, but I still wouldn't buy
one.....

They are better made than yesteryear and
carry a 2 yr guarantee last time I looked

Was this the 16 valve version?

Glow Worm are part of the Vaillant Hepworth group. Vaillant and Glow Worm
are the same company. The condensing Glow Worms are made in Holland and
have spiral tube stainless steel heat exchangers - similar to the
ECO-Hometec (MAN). The heat exchangers have been used in some Dutch, and I
think Vaillant models, the last I heard/read. They are very good value for
money and are up there in the Prem League.

Don't judge them on what they made 15-20-25 years ago.

OK, so Vaillant bought a brand.....


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 01:32:59 -0000, "IMM" wrote:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .

Many of the Glow Worms have stainless
steel heat exchangers.

You can put petrol in a Skoda and double its value, fit twin
exhausts
and use it additionally as a wheelbarrow, but I still wouldn't buy
one.....

They are better made than yesteryear and
carry a 2 yr guarantee last time I looked

Was this the 16 valve version?

Glow Worm are part of the Vaillant Hepworth group. Vaillant and Glow
Worm
are the same company. The condensing Glow Worms are made in Holland and
have spiral tube stainless steel heat exchangers - similar to the
ECO-Hometec (MAN). The heat exchangers have been used in some Dutch, and
I
think Vaillant models, the last I heard/read. They are very good value
for
money and are up there in the Prem League.

Don't judge them on what they made 15-20-25 years ago.

OK, so Vaillant bought a brand.....

A none statement.


---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.538 / Virus Database: 333 - Release Date: 10/11/2003

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:08:20 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Don't judge them on what they made 15-20-25 years ago.

OK, so Vaillant bought a brand.....

A none statement.


---

Not really. My point was that from my experience, Glow Worm had or
has been producing junk products, but somehow has established a brand
name.

It is quite common for a manufacturer from another geography who does
not have much of a recognised name in a territory in which they would
like to establish one, to buy up a company with a name and little
else, and to inject it with decent technology and manufacturing and of
course, money.

In a market where there is much conservatism such as the UK plumbing
and heating industry, this is a smart move.

My point was simply that in my view, and from my personal experience,
Glow Worm does not give me a positive brand message. They may now
have Vaillant technology etc. but who knows how that is implemented?
Did they fire the management and entire workforce and start again?
doubtful? So why would I want to risk that when I can buy known
good products with a consistent track record?



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 11:08:20 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



Don't judge them on what they made 15-20-25 years ago.

OK, so Vaillant bought a brand.....

A none statement.


---

Not really. My point was that from
my experience, Glow Worm had or
has been producing junk products,

One or two junk products you mean. Those you have had experience off.

but somehow has established a brand
name.

It is quite common for a manufacturer from
another geography who does
not have much of a recognised name in a
territory in which they would
like to establish one, to buy up a company
with a name and little else, and to inject it
with decent technology and manufacturing and of
course, money.

In a market where there is much conservatism
such as the UK plumbing
and heating industry, this is a smart move.

My point was simply that in my view,

Ah, in "your" view.

and from my personal experience,
Glow Worm does not give me a positive brand
message.

To milions of others it does.

They may now
have Vaillant technology etc. but who knows
how that is implemented?

To Vaillant quality stadards?

Did they fire the management and entire
workforce and start again?
doubtful?

Doesn't matter. They have to tow the Vaillant line.

So why would I want to risk that when I can buy known
good products with a consistent track record?

Glow Worm made excellent quality products that were value for money at the
time. E.g., the first wall mounted UK made boiler. They did make the odd
lemon, as do them all.

The current crop of Glow Worm condensing boilers are top rate. With most,
if not all, made in Holland. The heat exchangers are all made in Holland
anyhow, and the other components are mainly bought in, like gas valve, PCB
board, sensors etc. The low level stuff is rebadged Saunier Duval; best buy
the equiv Saunier as it is cheaper. So they have a large leap in quality
from bottom to top. You never looked did you. You never did your research.



---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.538 / Virus Database: 333 - Release Date: 10/11/2003

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:55:24 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




Not really. My point was that from
my experience, Glow Worm had or
has been producing junk products,

One or two junk products you mean. Those you have had experience off.

Products with poor manufacturing, thin metal for casing, internal
components and sharp edges and poor internal fixings are poor and
cheap engineering down to a price. Since they will have made
probably tens of thousands or more of some of these conventional
wall-mount boilers then they will all be the same. I am sure that
they didn't single me out for special attention.



but somehow has established a brand
name.

It is quite common for a manufacturer from
another geography who does
not have much of a recognised name in a
territory in which they would
like to establish one, to buy up a company
with a name and little else, and to inject it
with decent technology and manufacturing and of
course, money.

In a market where there is much conservatism
such as the UK plumbing
and heating industry, this is a smart move.

My point was simply that in my view,

Ah, in "your" view.

That's what I said, and from the outset.


and from my personal experience,
Glow Worm does not give me a positive brand
message.

To milions of others it does.

Undoubtedly and that is why the brand was saleable, just like
Potterton.

They may now
have Vaillant technology etc. but who knows
how that is implemented?

To Vaillant quality stadards?

Who knows?


Did they fire the management and entire
workforce and start again?
doubtful?

Doesn't matter. They have to tow the Vaillant line.

Are you sure about that?

So why would I want to risk that when I can buy known
good products with a consistent track record?

Glow Worm made excellent quality products that were value for money at the
time. E.g., the first wall mounted UK made boiler. They did make the odd
lemon, as do them all.

I had two different products of their manufacture installed in new
houses by a subcontractor of the builder.. Both were unreliable
junk and had a lifetime cost far in excess of what I would consider
reasonable.


The current crop of Glow Worm condensing boilers are top rate. With most,
if not all, made in Holland. The heat exchangers are all made in Holland
anyhow, and the other components are mainly bought in, like gas valve, PCB
board, sensors etc. The low level stuff is rebadged Saunier Duval; best buy
the equiv Saunier as it is cheaper. So they have a large leap in quality
from bottom to top. You never looked did you. You never did your research.


I always do my research and as you well know, I don't buy on price.





---

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 19:55:24 -0000, "IMM" wrote:




Not really. My point was that from
my experience, Glow Worm had or
has been producing junk products,

One or two junk products you mean. Those you have had experience off.

Products with poor manufacturing, thin metal for casing, internal
components and sharp edges and poor internal fixings are poor and
cheap engineering down to a price. Since they will have made
probably tens of thousands or more of some of these conventional
wall-mount boilers then they will all be the same. I am sure that
they didn't single me out for special attention.



but somehow has established a brand
name.

It is quite common for a manufacturer from
another geography who does
not have much of a recognised name in a
territory in which they would
like to establish one, to buy up a company
with a name and little else, and to inject it
with decent technology and manufacturing and of
course, money.

In a market where there is much conservatism
such as the UK plumbing
and heating industry, this is a smart move.

My point was simply that in my view,

Ah, in "your" view.

That's what I said, and from the outset.


and from my personal experience,
Glow Worm does not give me a positive brand
message.

To milions of others it does.

Undoubtedly and that is why the brand was saleable, just like
Potterton.

They may now
have Vaillant technology etc. but who knows
how that is implemented?

To Vaillant quality stadards?

Who knows?


Did they fire the management and entire
workforce and start again?
doubtful?

Doesn't matter. They have to tow the Vaillant line.

Are you sure about that?

So why would I want to risk that when I can buy known
good products with a consistent track record?

Glow Worm made excellent quality products that were value for money at
the
time. E.g., the first wall mounted UK made boiler. They did make the
odd
lemon, as do them all.

I had two different products of their manufacture installed in new
houses by a subcontractor of the builder.. Both were unreliable
junk and had a lifetime cost far in excess of what I would consider
reasonable.


The current crop of Glow Worm condensing boilers are top rate. With
most,
if not all, made in Holland. The heat exchangers are all made in Holland
anyhow, and the other components are mainly bought in, like gas valve,
PCB
board, sensors etc. The low level stuff is rebadged Saunier Duval; best
buy
the equiv Saunier as it is cheaper. So they have a large leap in quality
from bottom to top. You never looked did you. You never did your
research.

I always do my research and as you well know, I don't buy on price.

You only went for stainless steel heat exchangers....and Glow Worm have
these. Download their instalation & service manual.





---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.538 / Virus Database: 333 - Release Date: 10/11/2003

On Wed, 12 Nov 2003 21:59:01 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



You only went for stainless steel heat exchangers....and Glow Worm have
these. Download their instalation & service manual.

That wasn't the point of the original comments.....


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl