On 28/04/2021 23:28, Andy Burns wrote:
Max Demian wrote:

It's because the developer had the latest phone/software.

The NHS covid app requires bluetooth "low energy" (BLE) capability
introduced in android 6 (marshmallow) but not all phones had the
hardware for it.

Since Bluetooth wasn't designed to determine separation between phones I
doubt it would be much good for the purpose of tracing. And the signal
goes through solid objects that viruses can't

--
Max Demian

"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
%% wrote:

Given that Covid-19 inoculations may be given by different
organisations will they really all be recorded in one, accessible,
place?

No reason why that can't be done as with driver's licenses and passports.

No reason it *can't* be done, no, but *has* it been done?

Yes it has in other countries.

The old yellow fever (and other) ones were officially stamped
at the time one was vaccinated but there seems to be no
similar system to 'prove' one has been Covid-19 vaccinated.

Thats what the electronic vaccine passport does.

No one 'offically stamped' anything that I was aware of when I got my
Covid-19 inoculation. Maybe they did but the checking of identity
wasn't very rigorous, nothing like the requirements for a passport.

Again, that can be changed.

Yes, but my question was how is this going to work *now* as everyone
seems to think is possible sort of instantly?


... and how do you prove you are who you
say you are from your mobile phone?

Using your fingerprint or face id.

That assumes that 'they' already know your fingerprint/face,

Nope, the phone just confirms that the fingerprint or face id
matches what the phone has already registered for the owner.
Neither ever leaves the phone with the best phones.

not necessarily true for quite a lot of people.

For Covid-19 'passports' the requirement is that there is a record of
your inoculation somewhere that is *already* identified by (according
to you) my face/fingerprint. I don't believe there are records like
this anywhere.

There dont need to be. And passports and driver's licences already
do that with the photo.

On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 03:24:23 +1000, %%, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

Chris Green wrote:
%% wrote:

Given that Covid-19 inoculations may be given by different
organisations will they really all be recorded in one, accessible,
place?

No reason why that can't be done as with driver's licenses and passports.

No reason it *can't* be done, no, but *has* it been done?

The old yellow fever (and other) ones were officially stamped
at the time one was vaccinated but there seems to be no
similar system to 'prove' one has been Covid-19 vaccinated.

Thats what the electronic vaccine passport does.

No one 'offically stamped' anything that I was aware of when I got my
Covid-19 inoculation. Maybe they did but the checking of identity
wasn't very rigorous, nothing like the requirements for a passport.

Again, that can be changed.

Yes, but my question was how is this going to work *now* as everyone
seems to think is possible sort of instantly?

Well, my GP was able to look up on his computer to see what vaccine Id had
and when so clearly the data is all being held on NHS computers somewhere
central as I didnt have my first dose at my GPs.

I dare say it wouldnt be too hard to make an app that could look up this
info.

Tim
--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 29/04/2021 18:16, Max Demian wrote:
On 28/04/2021 22:12, newshound wrote:
On 28/04/2021 16:44, HVS wrote:
On 28 Apr 2021, Dave Plowman (News) wrote

Heard on the news they're likely to use the NHS track and trace
app as a vaccine passport.

My phone is a Galaxy S4. Works just fine as a phone and camera and
the things I want a phone for. But too old for the NHS app - which
was presumably written by a pal of BoJo, given I can't see what's
so special about it that it needs the latest phones.

I use the mobile so little for outgoing calls I'm happy with PAYG.
And BT hotspot Wi-Fi access round London, for my parking app, etc.

If I do have to buy a new phone, what is going to be the best
value? With at least as good a camera.

I like the Motorola phones;Â* they come out quite high in the ratings of
value for money.

A heap of years ago when my Galaxy S3 got too old (only had 3G), I
bought a Moto G4 plus.Â* Was happy with that, so when it started acting
up after another few years, I stayed with them (Moto G8 plus), and have
been happy with it.Â* Both of the phones were good value -- the G8 plus
cost �180 last December.

Can't advise on the camera -- ISTR it was well reviewed and it's
absolutely fine for me, but I don't use it all that much (so I'm not
particularly fussy about side of things).

Me too for Motorola. I've had several, currently a G8. Don't use the
camera for anything serious though.

You need a reasonably good camera - with autofocus - to read the QR
codes that these apps use for various things.

QR codes work fine with my Motorola. It's not always completely reliable
for photographing cheques, to bank them using the Barclays app. So my
wife has to do that on her iPhone 6.

"Max Demian" wrote in message
...
On 28/04/2021 23:28, Andy Burns wrote:
Max Demian wrote:

It's because the developer had the latest phone/software.

The NHS covid app requires bluetooth "low energy" (BLE) capability
introduced in android 6 (marshmallow) but not all phones had the hardware
for it.

Since Bluetooth wasn't designed to determine separation between phones I
doubt it would be much good for the purpose of tracing.

In fact that does work well enough to be useful.

And the signal goes through solid objects that viruses can't

Yes, but thats not often a problem and falses positive, not negative.

On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 05:37:07 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

05:37 already? LOL And you are STILL up and trolling, you perverted senile
cretin?

--
Richard addressing senile Rodent Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

%% wrote:


"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
%% wrote:

Given that Covid-19 inoculations may be given by different
organisations will they really all be recorded in one, accessible,
place?

No reason why that can't be done as with driver's licenses and passports.

No reason it *can't* be done, no, but *has* it been done?

Yes it has in other countries.

So what? I'm talking about the UK. It can't be done retrospectively
if there's no secure identity with the inoculation records.


Using your fingerprint or face id.

That assumes that 'they' already know your fingerprint/face,

Nope, the phone just confirms that the fingerprint or face id
matches what the phone has already registered for the owner.
Neither ever leaves the phone with the best phones.

What? This proves simply that the phone is mine, what on earth has it
got to do with connecting me with records confirming that I've had a
Covid-19 inoculation?


not necessarily true for quite a lot of people.

For Covid-19 'passports' the requirement is that there is a record of
your inoculation somewhere that is *already* identified by (according
to you) my face/fingerprint. I don't believe there are records like
this anywhere.

There dont need to be. And passports and driver's licences already
do that with the photo.

You haven't understood still have you?


Somewhere out there is a record (hopefully) that someone has injected
'fred' with Covid-19 vaccine. Now 'fred' comes along with his mobile
phone and says, here's my mobile phone. There needs to be some secure
way of connecting the two. How is this secure connection made?
There's no image of 'fred' with the inoculation record.

--
Chris Green
·

Tim+ wrote:
Chris Green wrote:
%% wrote:

Given that Covid-19 inoculations may be given by different
organisations will they really all be recorded in one, accessible,
place?

No reason why that can't be done as with driver's licenses and passports.

No reason it *can't* be done, no, but *has* it been done?

The old yellow fever (and other) ones were officially stamped
at the time one was vaccinated but there seems to be no
similar system to 'prove' one has been Covid-19 vaccinated.

Thats what the electronic vaccine passport does.

No one 'offically stamped' anything that I was aware of when I got my
Covid-19 inoculation. Maybe they did but the checking of identity
wasn't very rigorous, nothing like the requirements for a passport.

Again, that can be changed.

Yes, but my question was how is this going to work *now* as everyone
seems to think is possible sort of instantly?

Well, my GP was able to look up on his computer to see what vaccine Id had
and when so clearly the data is all being held on NHS computers somewhere
central as I didnt have my first dose at my GPs.

I dare say it wouldnt be too hard to make an app that could look up this
info.

It still depends on 'me' proving the app is on 'my' phone. This is
the bit that I don't understand really (though I'm not totally
convinced that the NHS records are so securely related to a particular
person).

How do you guarantee that the mobile phone that has the 'inoculation
passport' on it is that of the person whose NHS record says that they
have been inoculated? It's not like a passport which has a picture of
'me' in it. I can own lots of mobile phones, I can transfer them to
other people, I can change the fingerprint that unlocks them, mobile
phones are *not* locked for ever to their current owners.

--
Chris Green
·

Tim Streater wrote:
On 29 Apr 2021 at 19:11:50 BST, Tim+ wrote:

Chris Green wrote:
%% wrote:

Given that Covid-19 inoculations may be given by different
organisations will they really all be recorded in one, accessible,
place?

No reason why that can't be done as with driver's licenses and passports.

No reason it *can't* be done, no, but *has* it been done?

The old yellow fever (and other) ones were officially stamped
at the time one was vaccinated but there seems to be no
similar system to 'prove' one has been Covid-19 vaccinated.

Thats what the electronic vaccine passport does.

No one 'offically stamped' anything that I was aware of when I got my
Covid-19 inoculation. Maybe they did but the checking of identity
wasn't very rigorous, nothing like the requirements for a passport.

Again, that can be changed.

Yes, but my question was how is this going to work *now* as everyone
seems to think is possible sort of instantly?

Well, my GP was able to look up on his computer to see what vaccine Id had
and when so clearly the data is all being held on NHS computers somewhere
central as I didnt have my first dose at my GPs.

I dare say it wouldnt be too hard to make an app that could look up this
info.

I just logged into my Patient Access account. It shows both my covid jabs.

Lucky you, I wish I could do the same. My GP practice says it can't
provide this access because of privacy/data protection concerns.

.... and, as I said in my previous response, how do you now guarantee
that the mobile phone you're carrying around is 'yours' and that you
haven't copied the "I've been inoculated" flag from someone else's NHS
records.

--
Chris Green
·

Chris Green wrote:
%% wrote:


"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
%% wrote:

Given that Covid-19 inoculations may be given by different
organisations will they really all be recorded in one, accessible,
place?

No reason why that can't be done as with driver's licenses and passports.

No reason it *can't* be done, no, but *has* it been done?

Yes it has in other countries.

So what? I'm talking about the UK. It can't be done retrospectively
if there's no secure identity with the inoculation records.


Using your fingerprint or face id.

That assumes that 'they' already know your fingerprint/face,

Nope, the phone just confirms that the fingerprint or face id
matches what the phone has already registered for the owner.
Neither ever leaves the phone with the best phones.

What? This proves simply that the phone is mine, what on earth has it
got to do with connecting me with records confirming that I've had a
Covid-19 inoculation?


not necessarily true for quite a lot of people.

For Covid-19 'passports' the requirement is that there is a record of
your inoculation somewhere that is *already* identified by (according
to you) my face/fingerprint. I don't believe there are records like
this anywhere.

There dont need to be. And passports and driver's licences already
do that with the photo.

You haven't understood still have you?


Somewhere out there is a record (hopefully) that someone has injected
'fred' with Covid-19 vaccine. Now 'fred' comes along with his mobile
phone and says, here's my mobile phone. There needs to be some secure
way of connecting the two. How is this secure connection made?
There's no image of 'fred' with the inoculation record.


No, but there might be only one person with easy access to Freds address,
DOB, CHI number, NI number etc.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Chris Green wrote:
Tim Streater wrote:
On 29 Apr 2021 at 19:11:50 BST, Tim+ wrote:

Chris Green wrote:
%% wrote:

Given that Covid-19 inoculations may be given by different
organisations will they really all be recorded in one, accessible,
place?

No reason why that can't be done as with driver's licenses and passports.

No reason it *can't* be done, no, but *has* it been done?

The old yellow fever (and other) ones were officially stamped
at the time one was vaccinated but there seems to be no
similar system to 'prove' one has been Covid-19 vaccinated.

Thats what the electronic vaccine passport does.

No one 'offically stamped' anything that I was aware of when I got my
Covid-19 inoculation. Maybe they did but the checking of identity
wasn't very rigorous, nothing like the requirements for a passport.

Again, that can be changed.

Yes, but my question was how is this going to work *now* as everyone
seems to think is possible sort of instantly?

Well, my GP was able to look up on his computer to see what vaccine Id had
and when so clearly the data is all being held on NHS computers somewhere
central as I didnt have my first dose at my GPs.

I dare say it wouldnt be too hard to make an app that could look up this
info.

I just logged into my Patient Access account. It shows both my covid jabs.

Lucky you, I wish I could do the same. My GP practice says it can't
provide this access because of privacy/data protection concerns.

... and, as I said in my previous response, how do you now guarantee
that the mobile phone you're carrying around is 'yours' and that you
haven't copied the "I've been inoculated" flag from someone else's NHS
records.


You seem obsessed with absolutes. No system is absolutely secure or
impossible to circumvent. As long as the majority of users can be
accurately identified surely thats €œgood enough€�?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Tim+ wrote:

Somewhere out there is a record (hopefully) that someone has injected
'fred' with Covid-19 vaccine. Now 'fred' comes along with his mobile
phone and says, here's my mobile phone. There needs to be some secure
way of connecting the two. How is this secure connection made?
There's no image of 'fred' with the inoculation record.


No, but there might be only one person with easy access to Freds address,
DOB, CHI number, NI number etc.

Well I know those for several people, nothing very private about them
within a family.

So you're effectively saying the whole family can use a single
person's inoculation to allow them all to have this "I've had the
inoculation" app on their phone.

--
Chris Green
·

"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
%% wrote:


"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
%% wrote:

Given that Covid-19 inoculations may be given by different
organisations will they really all be recorded in one, accessible,
place?

No reason why that can't be done as with driver's licenses and
passports.

No reason it *can't* be done, no, but *has* it been done?

Yes it has in other countries.

So what? I'm talking about the UK. It can't be done retrospectively
if there's no secure identity with the inoculation records.

Can't see why anyone would have faked their identity when getting the
vaccination.


Using your fingerprint or face id.

That assumes that 'they' already know your fingerprint/face,

Nope, the phone just confirms that the fingerprint or face id
matches what the phone has already registered for the owner.
Neither ever leaves the phone with the best phones.

What? This proves simply that the phone is mine, what on earth has it
got to do with connecting me with records confirming that I've had a
Covid-19 inoculation?

That was a comment on your query about them already
having your fingerprint or face.

not necessarily true for quite a lot of people.

For Covid-19 'passports' the requirement is that there is a record of
your inoculation somewhere that is *already* identified by (according
to you) my face/fingerprint. I don't believe there are records like
this anywhere.

There dont need to be. And passports and driver's licences already
do that with the photo.

You haven't understood still have you?

We'll see...

Somewhere out there is a record (hopefully) that someone has injected
'fred' with Covid-19 vaccine. Now 'fred' comes along with his mobile
phone and says, here's my mobile phone. There needs to be some secure
way of connecting the two. How is this secure connection made?
There's no image of 'fred' with the inoculation record.

Fred doesnt get anything on his mobile phone.

"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
Tim+ wrote:
Chris Green wrote:
%% wrote:

Given that Covid-19 inoculations may be given by different
organisations will they really all be recorded in one, accessible,
place?

No reason why that can't be done as with driver's licenses and
passports.

No reason it *can't* be done, no, but *has* it been done?

The old yellow fever (and other) ones were officially stamped
at the time one was vaccinated but there seems to be no
similar system to 'prove' one has been Covid-19 vaccinated.

Thats what the electronic vaccine passport does.

No one 'offically stamped' anything that I was aware of when I got my
Covid-19 inoculation. Maybe they did but the checking of identity
wasn't very rigorous, nothing like the requirements for a passport.

Again, that can be changed.

Yes, but my question was how is this going to work *now* as everyone
seems to think is possible sort of instantly?

Well, my GP was able to look up on his computer to see what vaccine Id
had
and when so clearly the data is all being held on NHS computers somewhere
central as I didnt have my first dose at my GPs.

I dare say it wouldnt be too hard to make an app that could look up this
info.

It still depends on 'me' proving the app is on 'my' phone. This is
the bit that I don't understand really (though I'm not totally
convinced that the NHS records are so securely related to a particular
person).

How do you guarantee that the mobile phone that has the 'inoculation
passport' on it is that of the person whose NHS record says that they
have been inoculated? It's not like a passport which has a picture of
'me' in it. I can own lots of mobile phones, I can transfer them to
other people, I can change the fingerprint that unlocks them, mobile
phones are *not* locked for ever to their current owners.

Clearly not a problem with digital passports and driver's licenses.

Tim+ wrote:
Well, my GP was able to look up on his computer to see what vaccine Id had
and when so clearly the data is all being held on NHS computers somewhere
central as I didnt have my first dose at my GPs.

I dare say it wouldnt be too hard to make an app that could look up this
info.

I just logged into my Patient Access account. It shows both my covid jabs.

Lucky you, I wish I could do the same. My GP practice says it can't
provide this access because of privacy/data protection concerns.

... and, as I said in my previous response, how do you now guarantee
that the mobile phone you're carrying around is 'yours' and that you
haven't copied the "I've been inoculated" flag from someone else's NHS
records.


You seem obsessed with absolutes. No system is absolutely secure or
impossible to circumvent. As long as the majority of users can be
accurately identified surely thats €œgood enough€�?

Nothing is perfect. Yes, you can probably be fairly certain that the
record you have identified in the NHS databases is 'yours'.

However I still can't see how having an app installed in a mobile
phone which is *not* in any way locked to my identity will prove that
I've had the inoculation.

While some people may think their mobile phone is permanently and
inexorably locked to themselves it most certainly isn't true. There
(presumably) won't be a requirement to show the phone with the
inoculation app on it is yours will there? How would you prove that?
There's no inherent requirement in Android that you can only unlock
your phone with face recognition or fingerprint and even if there was
these can be changed if/when you transfer the phone to someone else.

--
Chris Green
·

Chris Green wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

Somewhere out there is a record (hopefully) that someone has injected
'fred' with Covid-19 vaccine. Now 'fred' comes along with his mobile
phone and says, here's my mobile phone. There needs to be some secure
way of connecting the two. How is this secure connection made?
There's no image of 'fred' with the inoculation record.


No, but there might be only one person with easy access to Freds address,
DOB, CHI number, NI number etc.

Well I know those for several people, nothing very private about them
within a family.

So you're effectively saying the whole family can use a single
person's inoculation to allow them all to have this "I've had the
inoculation" app on their phone.


It would be possible, in the same way you could log into your banking app
and give your phone to someone else. It might look a bit odd though when
an opposite sexed partner or a child tries to use your phone to prove
vaccination.

Do you use a banking app? Never had authentication codes sent to your
phone? Do you fret that this isnt secure enough?

Arguably, it isnt, but most of us using on line banking anyway. Proving
covid vaccination I would suggest is way less critical that securing your
bank account.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 07:13:11 +1000, %%, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

07:13??? ROTFLOL So you HAVE been up and trolling ALL NIGHT LONG, yet AGAIN,
you clinically insane senile ASSHOLE! LOL

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 86-year-old senile Australian
cretin's pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 07:15:14 +1000, %%, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
Norman Wells addressing trolling senile Rodent:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID:

"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
Tim+ wrote:

Somewhere out there is a record (hopefully) that someone has injected
'fred' with Covid-19 vaccine. Now 'fred' comes along with his mobile
phone and says, here's my mobile phone. There needs to be some secure
way of connecting the two. How is this secure connection made?
There's no image of 'fred' with the inoculation record.


No, but there might be only one person with easy access to Freds
address,
DOB, CHI number, NI number etc.

Well I know those for several people, nothing very private about them
within a family.

So you're effectively saying the whole family can use a single
person's inoculation to allow them all to have this "I've had the
inoculation" app on their phone.

It isnt something loaded onto just one phone in that sense.

Works fine with digital passports and driver's licenses and
would work just as well with a vaccination passport.

On 29/04/2021 15:03, Chris Green wrote:
Tim Streater wrote:
On 29 Apr 2021 at 14:03:56 BST, Andrew
wrote:

On 28/04/2021 17:10, GB wrote:
On 28/04/2021 16:08, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Heard on the news they're likely to use the NHS track and trace app as a
vaccine passport.

My phone is a Galaxy S4. Works just fine as a phone and camera and the
things I want a phone for. But too old for the NHS app - which was
presumably written by a pal of BoJo, given I can't see what's so special
about it that it needs the latest phones.

The NHS app uses a system that was jointly developed by Google and
Apple. It needs a minimum of Android 6. Which version does your phone have?



I use the mobile so little for outgoing calls I'm happy with PAYG. And BT
hotspot Wi-Fi access round London, for my parking app, etc.

If I do have to buy a new phone, what is going to be the best value? With
at least as good a camera.

You don't *need* a new phone. Staycationing is a great idea.


+1.

You don't need a vaccine passport, just like you don't need an
internet connection. It helps, and definately makes modern life easier,
but it is not essential.

I still have my vaccine passport as issued by WHO 50 years ago, with my Yellow
Fever etc jabs duly noted in it.

Yes, why can't we have something like that? It would have to be
updated a bit to make it more difficult to forge/fake but otherwise
should be OK.

At the moment I still don't understand how one's "vaccine passport"
(on a phone, or a piece of paper, or whatever) is going to be
validated. The old yellow fever (and other) ones were officially
stamped at the time one was vaccinated but there seems to be no
similar system to 'prove' one has been Covid-19 vaccinated.


Because they want something that can be read in the E-Gates so they
don't need a bloke or lady in an indoor hut....


Dave

%% wrote:
I dare say it wouldnt be too hard to make an app that could look up this
info.

It still depends on 'me' proving the app is on 'my' phone. This is
the bit that I don't understand really (though I'm not totally
convinced that the NHS records are so securely related to a particular
person).

How do you guarantee that the mobile phone that has the 'inoculation
passport' on it is that of the person whose NHS record says that they
have been inoculated? It's not like a passport which has a picture of
'me' in it. I can own lots of mobile phones, I can transfer them to
other people, I can change the fingerprint that unlocks them, mobile
phones are *not* locked for ever to their current owners.

Clearly not a problem with digital passports and driver's licenses.

Why?

I walk up to passport control with my (digital or not) passport and a
mobile phone. The passport has a photograph of me on it and, maybe,
even more specific identity information which proves pretty certainly
it's my passport. OK, that's good.

What sort of proof is there that that the phone which has the covid-19
passport on it is mine? ... or that the covid-19 app on it is
connected to my inoculation record?

--
Chris Green
·

Tim+ wrote:
Chris Green wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

Somewhere out there is a record (hopefully) that someone has injected
'fred' with Covid-19 vaccine. Now 'fred' comes along with his mobile
phone and says, here's my mobile phone. There needs to be some secure
way of connecting the two. How is this secure connection made?
There's no image of 'fred' with the inoculation record.


No, but there might be only one person with easy access to Freds address,
DOB, CHI number, NI number etc.

Well I know those for several people, nothing very private about them
within a family.

So you're effectively saying the whole family can use a single
person's inoculation to allow them all to have this "I've had the
inoculation" app on their phone.


It would be possible, in the same way you could log into your banking app
and give your phone to someone else. It might look a bit odd though when
an opposite sexed partner or a child tries to use your phone to prove
vaccination.

Do you use a banking app? Never had authentication codes sent to your
phone? Do you fret that this isnt secure enough?

No, bacause I'm afraid someone will steal my phone and get at my
money. **Exactly** the same issue!! :-)

--
Chris Green
·

On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 07:24:15 +1000, %%, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:


FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
Sqwertz to Rodent Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
%% wrote:
I dare say it wouldnt be too hard to make an app that could look up
this
info.

It still depends on 'me' proving the app is on 'my' phone. This is
the bit that I don't understand really (though I'm not totally
convinced that the NHS records are so securely related to a particular
person).

How do you guarantee that the mobile phone that has the 'inoculation
passport' on it is that of the person whose NHS record says that they
have been inoculated? It's not like a passport which has a picture of
'me' in it. I can own lots of mobile phones, I can transfer them to
other people, I can change the fingerprint that unlocks them, mobile
phones are *not* locked for ever to their current owners.

Clearly not a problem with digital passports and driver's licenses.

Why?

I walk up to passport control with my (digital or not) passport and a
mobile phone. The passport has a photograph of me on it and, maybe,
even more specific identity information which proves pretty certainly
it's my passport. OK, that's good.

What sort of proof is there that that the phone which has the covid-19
passport on it is mine? ...

No reason why it cant have your photo too.

or that the covid-19 app on it is
connected to my inoculation record?

Verified the same way as is done with digital passports and digital driver's
licences.

"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
Tim+ wrote:
Chris Green wrote:
Tim+ wrote:

Somewhere out there is a record (hopefully) that someone has injected
'fred' with Covid-19 vaccine. Now 'fred' comes along with his mobile
phone and says, here's my mobile phone. There needs to be some
secure
way of connecting the two. How is this secure connection made?
There's no image of 'fred' with the inoculation record.


No, but there might be only one person with easy access to Freds
address,
DOB, CHI number, NI number etc.

Well I know those for several people, nothing very private about them
within a family.

So you're effectively saying the whole family can use a single
person's inoculation to allow them all to have this "I've had the
inoculation" app on their phone.


It would be possible, in the same way you could log into your banking app
and give your phone to someone else. It might look a bit odd though when
an opposite sexed partner or a child tries to use your phone to prove
vaccination.

Do you use a banking app? Never had authentication codes sent to your
phone? Do you fret that this isnt secure enough?

No, bacause I'm afraid someone will steal my phone and get at my money.

No one can steal my iphone and get my money.

And I cant lose the phone and have my money stolen either.

**Exactly** the same issue!! :-)

Nope.

On Thursday, 29 April 2021 at 08:37:32 UTC+1, David Wade wrote:
On 28/04/2021 23:53, David Wade wrote:
On 28/04/2021 16:08, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Heard on the news they're likely to use the NHS track and trace app as a
vaccine passport.

My phone is a Galaxy S4. Works just fine as a phone and camera and the
things I want a phone for. But too old for the NHS app - which was
presumably written by a pal of BoJo, given I can't see what's so special
about it that it needs the latest phones.


Google added some features to the Android OS to detect proximity of
other phones, so it could detect contacts. This was only added to newer
versions of Android.

BoJo's original app tried to bypass this, so he could have a central NHS
database, but we know what happened to that.

So Google not BoJo's fault..

I use the mobile so little for outgoing calls I'm happy with PAYG. And BT
hotspot Wi-Fi access round London, for my parking app, etc.

If I do have to buy a new phone, what is going to be the best value? With
at least as good a camera.


Look at the Samsung A series...

Dave

Actually we are not likely to use the Track & Trace app. Its the NHS
booking an records app

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...line.nhsonline

but it still needs Android 5 to work.

Dave

Correct - at last.

However, there is an issue that appears not yet to have been appreciated. Other than Wales using the same track and trace app as England, there is no other commonality of apps across the four nations. Whether "NHS app" or "NHS track and trace app".

Using "the NHS app" means "using the NHS England app". Which is only available in England. And, because it is tied into the GP systems, it is more complex than a change of some parameter in the app distribution system.

We also have questions over people who got vaccinated outside their GP surgery. For example, NHS staff - especially those who live in one nation but work in another. Or received one when they were abroad. And there will be many other possible issues - even if individually rare.

On 28/04/2021 16:08, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Heard on the news they're likely to use the NHS track and trace app as a
vaccine passport.

That maybe, although I noticed last night that my non Covid NHS app has
a record of my first jab, in the Acute Short Term Medicines section.

%% wrote:


"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
%% wrote:
I dare say it wouldnt be too hard to make an app that could look up
this
info.

It still depends on 'me' proving the app is on 'my' phone. This is
the bit that I don't understand really (though I'm not totally
convinced that the NHS records are so securely related to a particular
person).

How do you guarantee that the mobile phone that has the 'inoculation
passport' on it is that of the person whose NHS record says that they
have been inoculated? It's not like a passport which has a picture of
'me' in it. I can own lots of mobile phones, I can transfer them to
other people, I can change the fingerprint that unlocks them, mobile
phones are *not* locked for ever to their current owners.

Clearly not a problem with digital passports and driver's licenses.

Why?

I walk up to passport control with my (digital or not) passport and a
mobile phone. The passport has a photograph of me on it and, maybe,
even more specific identity information which proves pretty certainly
it's my passport. OK, that's good.

What sort of proof is there that that the phone which has the covid-19
passport on it is mine? ...

No reason why it cant have your photo too.

A photo on a phone proves nothing, it can be changed.

Passports go to great lengths to prevent the picture being changed.

--
Chris Green
·

%% wrote:


"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
%% wrote:
I dare say it wouldnt be too hard to make an app that could look up
this
info.

It still depends on 'me' proving the app is on 'my' phone. This is
the bit that I don't understand really (though I'm not totally
convinced that the NHS records are so securely related to a particular
person).

How do you guarantee that the mobile phone that has the 'inoculation
passport' on it is that of the person whose NHS record says that they
have been inoculated? It's not like a passport which has a picture of
'me' in it. I can own lots of mobile phones, I can transfer them to
other people, I can change the fingerprint that unlocks them, mobile
phones are *not* locked for ever to their current owners.

Clearly not a problem with digital passports and driver's licenses.

Why?

I walk up to passport control with my (digital or not) passport and a
mobile phone. The passport has a photograph of me on it and, maybe,
even more specific identity information which proves pretty certainly
it's my passport. OK, that's good.

What sort of proof is there that that the phone which has the covid-19
passport on it is mine? ...

No reason why it cant have your photo too.

A photo can be changed!

Passports go to huge lengths to prevent you changing the picture.

This is the whole point, a passport is designed to be locked to your
identity, that's the whole point of its existence, nowadays there's
more than just the photo identifying it as yours. Plus there's lots
of 'cleverness' preventing people from changing the identity
associated with a passport and also making it difficult to create
false passports.

Phones have none of this, it's trivial to change the 'identity' tags
on a phone, change the picture, register an app with a different bank
account, whatever. The thing is designed to be customised, quite the
opposite of a passport.

--
Chris Green
·

On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 09:23:00 +1000, %%, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

Let's see, you posted this troll at 09:23 am in Australia! So you've been up
and trolling ALL NIGHT LONG (since 00:55), yet again! And after a little
break at noontime you started trolling again, shortly after two o'clock!

So, again: What kind of a SICK ASSHOLE are you, you senile cretin?

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 86-year-old senile Australian
cretin's pathological trolling:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 09:20:33 +1000, %%, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile pest's latest troll**** unread

On 30/04/2021 08:59, Chris Green wrote:
%% wrote:


"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
%% wrote:
I dare say it wouldnt be too hard to make an app that could look up
this
info.

It still depends on 'me' proving the app is on 'my' phone. This is
the bit that I don't understand really (though I'm not totally
convinced that the NHS records are so securely related to a particular
person).

How do you guarantee that the mobile phone that has the 'inoculation
passport' on it is that of the person whose NHS record says that they
have been inoculated? It's not like a passport which has a picture of
'me' in it. I can own lots of mobile phones, I can transfer them to
other people, I can change the fingerprint that unlocks them, mobile
phones are *not* locked for ever to their current owners.

Clearly not a problem with digital passports and driver's licenses.

Why?

I walk up to passport control with my (digital or not) passport and a
mobile phone. The passport has a photograph of me on it and, maybe,
even more specific identity information which proves pretty certainly
it's my passport. OK, that's good.

What sort of proof is there that that the phone which has the covid-19
passport on it is mine? ...

No reason why it cant have your photo too.

A photo can be changed!

Passports go to huge lengths to prevent you changing the picture.

This is the whole point, a passport is designed to be locked to your
identity, that's the whole point of its existence, nowadays there's
more than just the photo identifying it as yours. Plus there's lots
of 'cleverness' preventing people from changing the identity
associated with a passport and also making it difficult to create
false passports.

Phones have none of this, it's trivial to change the 'identity' tags
on a phone, change the picture, register an app with a different bank
account, whatever. The thing is designed to be customised, quite the
opposite of a passport.


Every /serious/ proposal I've seen expects a Covid-19 "certificate" to
contain name and d.o.b. so it can be cross-checked to other ID - e.g. a
passport or driving licence. If that data is encrypted it'd be well
beyond my DIY ability to change it.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

"Chris Green" wrote in message
news
%% wrote:


"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
%% wrote:
I dare say it wouldnt be too hard to make an app that could look
up
this
info.

It still depends on 'me' proving the app is on 'my' phone. This is
the bit that I don't understand really (though I'm not totally
convinced that the NHS records are so securely related to a
particular
person).

How do you guarantee that the mobile phone that has the 'inoculation
passport' on it is that of the person whose NHS record says that
they
have been inoculated? It's not like a passport which has a picture
of
'me' in it. I can own lots of mobile phones, I can transfer them to
other people, I can change the fingerprint that unlocks them, mobile
phones are *not* locked for ever to their current owners.

Clearly not a problem with digital passports and driver's licenses.

Why?

I walk up to passport control with my (digital or not) passport and a
mobile phone. The passport has a photograph of me on it and, maybe,
even more specific identity information which proves pretty certainly
it's my passport. OK, that's good.

What sort of proof is there that that the phone which has the covid-19
passport on it is mine? ...

No reason why it cant have your photo too.

A photo on a phone proves nothing, it can be changed.

Its easy enough to ensure that the one on the phone has
to match the one in the central database that verifies it.

Passports go to great lengths to prevent the picture being changed.

And thats just as true of digital passports.

Robin wrote:
On 30/04/2021 08:59, Chris Green wrote:
%% wrote:


"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
%% wrote:
I dare say it wouldnt be too hard to make an app that could look up
this
info.

It still depends on 'me' proving the app is on 'my' phone. This is
the bit that I don't understand really (though I'm not totally
convinced that the NHS records are so securely related to a particular
person).

How do you guarantee that the mobile phone that has the 'inoculation
passport' on it is that of the person whose NHS record says that they
have been inoculated? It's not like a passport which has a picture of
'me' in it. I can own lots of mobile phones, I can transfer them to
other people, I can change the fingerprint that unlocks them, mobile
phones are *not* locked for ever to their current owners.

Clearly not a problem with digital passports and driver's licenses.

Why?

I walk up to passport control with my (digital or not) passport and a
mobile phone. The passport has a photograph of me on it and, maybe,
even more specific identity information which proves pretty certainly
it's my passport. OK, that's good.

What sort of proof is there that that the phone which has the covid-19
passport on it is mine? ...

No reason why it cant have your photo too.

A photo can be changed!

Passports go to huge lengths to prevent you changing the picture.

This is the whole point, a passport is designed to be locked to your
identity, that's the whole point of its existence, nowadays there's
more than just the photo identifying it as yours. Plus there's lots
of 'cleverness' preventing people from changing the identity
associated with a passport and also making it difficult to create
false passports.

Phones have none of this, it's trivial to change the 'identity' tags
on a phone, change the picture, register an app with a different bank
account, whatever. The thing is designed to be customised, quite the
opposite of a passport.


Every /serious/ proposal I've seen expects a Covid-19 "certificate" to
contain name and d.o.b. so it can be cross-checked to other ID - e.g. a
passport or driving licence. If that data is encrypted it'd be well
beyond my DIY ability to change it.

But how does that work in a phone app? I.e. if the app is installed
on Fred's phone and confirms he's been jabbed, Fred then gives (or
sells) his phone to Bert. What happens?

.... or do you show the screen of your phone to passport control (or
whatever) and they have to check that the DOB etc. matches your
passport. In other venues how will this work - would you need your
passport and/or driving licence to be cross checked with the Covid
certificate on your phone?

--
Chris Green
·

"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
%% wrote:


"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
%% wrote:
I dare say it wouldnt be too hard to make an app that could look
up
this
info.

It still depends on 'me' proving the app is on 'my' phone. This is
the bit that I don't understand really (though I'm not totally
convinced that the NHS records are so securely related to a
particular
person).

How do you guarantee that the mobile phone that has the 'inoculation
passport' on it is that of the person whose NHS record says that
they
have been inoculated? It's not like a passport which has a picture
of
'me' in it. I can own lots of mobile phones, I can transfer them to
other people, I can change the fingerprint that unlocks them, mobile
phones are *not* locked for ever to their current owners.

Clearly not a problem with digital passports and driver's licenses.

Why?

I walk up to passport control with my (digital or not) passport and a
mobile phone. The passport has a photograph of me on it and, maybe,
even more specific identity information which proves pretty certainly
it's my passport. OK, that's good.

What sort of proof is there that that the phone which has the covid-19
passport on it is mine? ...

No reason why it cant have your photo too.

A photo can be changed!

Passports go to huge lengths to prevent you changing the picture.

This is the whole point, a passport is designed to be locked to your
identity, that's the whole point of its existence, nowadays there's
more than just the photo identifying it as yours. Plus there's lots
of 'cleverness' preventing people from changing the identity
associated with a passport and also making it difficult to create
false passports.

Phones have none of this,

But a vaccination passport can have all of that, just like
the digital passport does.

it's trivial to change the 'identity' tags
on a phone, change the picture, register an app with a different bank
account, whatever. The thing is designed to be customised, quite the
opposite of a passport.

But just as true of a digital vaccination passport on a phone.

In article ,
Chris Green wrote:
No, bacause I'm afraid someone will steal my phone and get at my
money. **Exactly** the same issue!! :-)

With Barclays, you have to enter (part of) a password via a drop down
menu. Which makes if near impossible for a bot to capture the password.

If your banking system allows stored passwords, I'd change it rather
quickly.

--
*If tennis elbow is painful, imagine suffering with tennis balls *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 28/04/2021 16:08, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Heard on the news they're likely to use the NHS track and trace app as
a vaccine passport.

My phone is a Galaxy S4. Works just fine as a phone and camera and the
things I want a phone for. But too old for the NHS app - which was
presumably written by a pal of BoJo, given I can't see what's so
special about it that it needs the latest phones.

It does not need a particularly recent phone (I think hardware wise all
it needs is Bluetooth Low Energy 4 or above), but does need Android 6 or
later. Most S4s were Android 5 (Lollipop)

Although Samsung don't have an update for this, there are ways of
installing it yourself:

https://www.nextpit.com/how-to-get-a...sung-galaxy-s4

I use the mobile so little for outgoing calls I'm happy with PAYG. And
BT hotspot Wi-Fi access round London, for my parking app, etc.

If I do have to buy a new phone,

There will no doubt be manual ways to achieve the result without a
smartphone, however path of least resistance and all that!

what is going to be the best value? With
at least as good a camera.

Moto does ok for me, but there are other mid range good value options
out there these days. "Good camera" tends to be quite a broad definition
now - some phones take the camera aspect to the extreme.

Doing some Googling says you can use Android 10 with an S4. But each
article I read seems to use a different way. And recommend different
software to do this. All very confusing.

--
*Why is "abbreviated" such a long word?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 30/04/2021 10:28, Chris Green wrote:
Robin wrote:
On 30/04/2021 08:59, Chris Green wrote:
%% wrote:


"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
%% wrote:
I dare say it wouldnt be too hard to make an app that could look up
this
info.

It still depends on 'me' proving the app is on 'my' phone. This is
the bit that I don't understand really (though I'm not totally
convinced that the NHS records are so securely related to a particular
person).

How do you guarantee that the mobile phone that has the 'inoculation
passport' on it is that of the person whose NHS record says that they
have been inoculated? It's not like a passport which has a picture of
'me' in it. I can own lots of mobile phones, I can transfer them to
other people, I can change the fingerprint that unlocks them, mobile
phones are *not* locked for ever to their current owners.

Clearly not a problem with digital passports and driver's licenses.

Why?

I walk up to passport control with my (digital or not) passport and a
mobile phone. The passport has a photograph of me on it and, maybe,
even more specific identity information which proves pretty certainly
it's my passport. OK, that's good.

What sort of proof is there that that the phone which has the covid-19
passport on it is mine? ...

No reason why it cant have your photo too.

A photo can be changed!

Passports go to huge lengths to prevent you changing the picture.

This is the whole point, a passport is designed to be locked to your
identity, that's the whole point of its existence, nowadays there's
more than just the photo identifying it as yours. Plus there's lots
of 'cleverness' preventing people from changing the identity
associated with a passport and also making it difficult to create
false passports.

Phones have none of this, it's trivial to change the 'identity' tags
on a phone, change the picture, register an app with a different bank
account, whatever. The thing is designed to be customised, quite the
opposite of a passport.


Every /serious/ proposal I've seen expects a Covid-19 "certificate" to
contain name and d.o.b. so it can be cross-checked to other ID - e.g. a
passport or driving licence. If that data is encrypted it'd be well
beyond my DIY ability to change it.

But how does that work in a phone app? I.e. if the app is installed
on Fred's phone and confirms he's been jabbed, Fred then gives (or
sells) his phone to Bert. What happens?

... or do you show the screen of your phone to passport control (or
whatever) and they have to check that the DOB etc. matches your
passport.

Very probably. With cross-checks done automatically by reading the code
from the phone and the data from the passport. That's one reason
countries around the world want /digital/ certificates where possible.
As is documented in masses of material about the WHO Smart Vaccination
Certificates, Common Pass, MS's Smart Health Cards, EU's vaccine
passports, etc etc

In other venues how will this work - would you need your
passport and/or driving licence to be cross checked with the Covid
certificate on your phone?

I'd imahine that'd depend on risk-assessment.






--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
Robin wrote:
On 30/04/2021 08:59, Chris Green wrote:
%% wrote:


"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
%% wrote:
I dare say it wouldnt be too hard to make an app that could look
up
this
info.

It still depends on 'me' proving the app is on 'my' phone. This is
the bit that I don't understand really (though I'm not totally
convinced that the NHS records are so securely related to a
particular
person).

How do you guarantee that the mobile phone that has the
'inoculation
passport' on it is that of the person whose NHS record says that
they
have been inoculated? It's not like a passport which has a picture
of
'me' in it. I can own lots of mobile phones, I can transfer them
to
other people, I can change the fingerprint that unlocks them,
mobile
phones are *not* locked for ever to their current owners.

Clearly not a problem with digital passports and driver's licenses.

Why?

I walk up to passport control with my (digital or not) passport and a
mobile phone. The passport has a photograph of me on it and, maybe,
even more specific identity information which proves pretty certainly
it's my passport. OK, that's good.

What sort of proof is there that that the phone which has the
covid-19
passport on it is mine? ...

No reason why it cant have your photo too.

A photo can be changed!

Passports go to huge lengths to prevent you changing the picture.

This is the whole point, a passport is designed to be locked to your
identity, that's the whole point of its existence, nowadays there's
more than just the photo identifying it as yours. Plus there's lots
of 'cleverness' preventing people from changing the identity
associated with a passport and also making it difficult to create
false passports.

Phones have none of this, it's trivial to change the 'identity' tags
on a phone, change the picture, register an app with a different bank
account, whatever. The thing is designed to be customised, quite the
opposite of a passport.


Every /serious/ proposal I've seen expects a Covid-19 "certificate" to
contain name and d.o.b. so it can be cross-checked to other ID - e.g. a
passport or driving licence. If that data is encrypted it'd be well
beyond my DIY ability to change it.

But how does that work in a phone app? I.e. if the app is installed
on Fred's phone and confirms he's been jabbed, Fred then gives (or
sells) his phone to Bert. What happens?

Fred needs to turn up at the check point with paper based picture ID proving
that he is the person named (and DOB-ed) in the vaccinate certificate

... or do you show the screen of your phone to passport control (or
whatever) and they have to check that the DOB etc. matches your
passport.

Of course

how else could it possibly work

In other venues how will this work

It won't, which it's why it's a nonsense to have this method of vaccine
checking for entry to venues

- would you need your
passport and/or driving licence to be cross checked with the Covid
certificate on your phone?

Not gonna happen