"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 30/04/2021 10:28, Chris Green wrote:
Robin wrote:
On 30/04/2021 08:59, Chris Green wrote:
%% wrote:


"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
%% wrote:
I dare say it wouldnt be too hard to make an app that could look
up
this
info.

It still depends on 'me' proving the app is on 'my' phone. This is
the bit that I don't understand really (though I'm not totally
convinced that the NHS records are so securely related to a
particular
person).

How do you guarantee that the mobile phone that has the
'inoculation
passport' on it is that of the person whose NHS record says that
they
have been inoculated? It's not like a passport which has a picture
of
'me' in it. I can own lots of mobile phones, I can transfer them
to
other people, I can change the fingerprint that unlocks them,
mobile
phones are *not* locked for ever to their current owners.

Clearly not a problem with digital passports and driver's licenses.

Why?

I walk up to passport control with my (digital or not) passport and a
mobile phone. The passport has a photograph of me on it and, maybe,
even more specific identity information which proves pretty certainly
it's my passport. OK, that's good.

What sort of proof is there that that the phone which has the
covid-19
passport on it is mine? ...

No reason why it cant have your photo too.

A photo can be changed!

Passports go to huge lengths to prevent you changing the picture.

This is the whole point, a passport is designed to be locked to your
identity, that's the whole point of its existence, nowadays there's
more than just the photo identifying it as yours. Plus there's lots
of 'cleverness' preventing people from changing the identity
associated with a passport and also making it difficult to create
false passports.

Phones have none of this, it's trivial to change the 'identity' tags
on a phone, change the picture, register an app with a different bank
account, whatever. The thing is designed to be customised, quite the
opposite of a passport.


Every /serious/ proposal I've seen expects a Covid-19 "certificate" to
contain name and d.o.b. so it can be cross-checked to other ID - e.g. a
passport or driving licence. If that data is encrypted it'd be well
beyond my DIY ability to change it.

But how does that work in a phone app? I.e. if the app is installed
on Fred's phone and confirms he's been jabbed, Fred then gives (or
sells) his phone to Bert. What happens?

... or do you show the screen of your phone to passport control (or
whatever) and they have to check that the DOB etc. matches your
passport.

Very probably. With cross-checks done automatically by reading the code
from the phone and the data from the passport. That's one reason
countries around the world want /digital/ certificates where possible.

I don't believe that "countries around the world" have access to our PP
database. Only UK border control has that (indeed even they may not have
that in real time).

Countries around the world have to take documents at face value, relying
upon the built-in anti-fraud devices embedded into the documents. It is
for this reason that *paper* based documentation is so much better here than
digital variants

They may want these documents to be easily digitally read, but they still
want paper documents

tim

On 30/04/2021 08:50, Chris Green wrote:

A photo on a phone proves nothing, it can be changed.

Passports go to great lengths to prevent the picture being changed.


Not everyone has a passport, and plenty of people don't have mobile
phones at all, never mind smart phones.

On 29/04/2021 16:18, Chris Green wrote:
Andrew wrote:
On 29/04/2021 14:39, Tim Streater wrote:
On 29 Apr 2021 at 14:03:56 BST, Andrew
wrote:

On 28/04/2021 17:10, GB wrote:
On 28/04/2021 16:08, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Heard on the news they're likely to use the NHS track and trace app as a
vaccine passport.

My phone is a Galaxy S4. Works just fine as a phone and camera and the
things I want a phone for. But too old for the NHS app - which was
presumably written by a pal of BoJo, given I can't see what's so special
about it that it needs the latest phones.

The NHS app uses a system that was jointly developed by Google and
Apple. It needs a minimum of Android 6. Which version does your phone have?



I use the mobile so little for outgoing calls I'm happy with PAYG. And BT
hotspot Wi-Fi access round London, for my parking app, etc.

If I do have to buy a new phone, what is going to be the best value? With
at least as good a camera.

You don't *need* a new phone. Staycationing is a great idea.


+1.

You don't need a vaccine passport, just like you don't need an
internet connection. It helps, and definately makes modern life easier,
but it is not essential.

I still have my vaccine passport as issued by WHO 50 years ago, with my Yellow
Fever etc jabs duly noted in it.


I stuck my yellow fever certificate in the back of my passport, but it
expired after 10 year, from what I recollect.

Yellow Fever inoculations now last 'for ever' so it's valid past it's
expiry date.


OK, I had mine done in 1988. In those days there was a 10-year expiry
date. I had to make a 50 mile round trip to Brighton to get it done too.

On 29 Apr 2021, Max Demian wrote

On 28/04/2021 22:12, newshound wrote:
On 28/04/2021 16:44, HVS wrote:
On 28 Apr 2021, Dave Plowman (News) wrote

Heard on the news they're likely to use the NHS track and trace
app as a vaccine passport.

My phone is a Galaxy S4. Works just fine as a phone and camera
and the things I want a phone for. But too old for the NHS app
- which was presumably written by a pal of BoJo, given I can't
see what's so special about it that it needs the latest phones.

I use the mobile so little for outgoing calls I'm happy with
PAYG. And BT hotspot Wi-Fi access round London, for my parking
app, etc.

If I do have to buy a new phone, what is going to be the best
value? With at least as good a camera.

I like the Motorola phones;Â* they come out quite high in the
ratings of value for money.

A heap of years ago when my Galaxy S3 got too old (only had 3G),
I bought a Moto G4 plus.Â* Was happy with that, so when it
started acting up after another few years, I stayed with them
(Moto G8 plus), and have been happy with it.Â* Both of the
phones were good value -- the G8 plus cost �180 last December.

Can't advise on the camera -- ISTR it was well reviewed and it's
absolutely fine for me, but I don't use it all that much (so I'm
not particularly fussy about side of things).

Me too for Motorola. I've had several, currently a G8. Don't use
the camera for anything serious though.

You need a reasonably good camera - with autofocus - to read the
QR codes that these apps use for various things.

I've not had a problem with that sort of thing with mine (Moto G8);
AFAIK, my wife's cheaper Moto is OK with them. (I can't remember the
model of her phone, but it cost under 100 pounds.) Given how
widespread the phone-as-code-reader is, I suspect it would have to be
quite a bottom-range model that can't cope with that level of task.

The main problem for me -- I have tremor-dominant Parkinson's -- is
that the camera doesn't have particularly good stabilisation. It's
not too bad for happy snaps, but the zoom is pretty well unusable
unless I happen to find something solid to brace it against.

--
Cheers, Harvey

On 30/04/2021 12:52, tim... wrote:


"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 30/04/2021 10:28, Chris Green wrote:
Robin wrote:
On 30/04/2021 08:59, Chris Green wrote:
%% wrote:


"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
%% wrote:
I dare say it wouldnt be too hard to make an app that could
look up
this
info.

It still depends on 'me' proving the app is on 'my' phone.
This is
the bit that I don't understand really (though I'm not totally
convinced that the NHS records are so securely related to a
particular
person).

How do you guarantee that the mobile phone that has the
'inoculation
passport' on it is that of the person whose NHS record says
that they
have been inoculated?Â* It's not like a passport which has a
picture of
'me' in it.Â* I can own lots of mobile phones, I can transfer
them to
other people, I can change the fingerprint that unlocks them,
mobile
phones are *not* locked for ever to their current owners.

Clearly not a problem with digital passports and driver's licenses.

Why?

I walk up to passport control with my (digital or not) passport
and a
mobile phone.Â* The passport has a photograph of me on it and, maybe,
even more specific identity information which proves pretty
certainly
it's my passport.Â* OK, that's good.

What sort of proof is there that that the phone which has the
covid-19
passport on it is mine?Â* ...

No reason why it cant have your photo too.

A photo can be changed!

Passports go to huge lengths to prevent you changing the picture.

This is the whole point, a passport is designed to be locked to your
identity, that's the whole point of its existence, nowadays there's
more than just the photo identifying it as yours.Â* Plus there's lots
of 'cleverness' preventing people from changing the identity
associated with a passport and also making it difficult to create
false passports.

Phones have none of this, it's trivial to change the 'identity' tags
on a phone, change the picture, register an app with a different bank
account, whatever.Â* The thing is designed to be customised, quite the
opposite of a passport.


Every /serious/ proposal I've seen expects a Covid-19 "certificate" to
contain name and d.o.b. so it can be cross-checked to other ID - e.g. a
passport or driving licence.Â* If that data is encrypted it'd be well
beyond my DIY ability to change it.

But how does that work in a phone app?Â* I.e. if the app is installed
on Fred's phone and confirms he's been jabbed, Fred then gives (or
sells) his phone to Bert.Â* What happens?

... or do you show the screen of your phone to passport control (or
whatever) and they have to check that the DOB etc. matches your
passport.

Very probably.Â* With cross-checks done automatically by reading the
code from the phone and the data from the passport.Â* That's one reason
countries around the world want /digital/ certificates where possible.

I don't believe that "countries around the world" have access to our PP
database.Â* Only UK border control has that (indeed even they may not
have that in real time).

Countries around the world have to take documents at face value, relying
upon the built-in anti-fraud devices embedded into the documents.Â*Â* It
is for this reason that *paper* based documentation is so much better
here than digital variants

They may want these documents to be easily digitally read, but they
still want paper documents

I did not say that other countries wanted access to our database. I
said they want digital certificates that can be easily read and
verified. (Digital here includes an encrypted QR code.)

If your "they still want paper documents" applies to vaccination
certificates that's at odds with the WHO and all the other work on
digital options. And with the many who reckon a paper document is
/much/ easier to forge. (Many passports are of course no longer just
paper but biometric with embedded chips. Meanwhile the paper
International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis - "Yellow Card"

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 30/04/2021 13:52, Robin wrote:
On 30/04/2021 12:52, tim... wrote:


"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 30/04/2021 10:28, Chris Green wrote:
Robin wrote:
On 30/04/2021 08:59, Chris Green wrote:
%% wrote:


"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
%% wrote:
I dare say it wouldnt be too hard to make an app that could
look up
this
info.

It still depends on 'me' proving the app is on 'my' phone.
This is
the bit that I don't understand really (though I'm not totally
convinced that the NHS records are so securely related to a
particular
person).

How do you guarantee that the mobile phone that has the
'inoculation
passport' on it is that of the person whose NHS record says
that they
have been inoculated?Â* It's not like a passport which has a
picture of
'me' in it.Â* I can own lots of mobile phones, I can transfer
them to
other people, I can change the fingerprint that unlocks them,
mobile
phones are *not* locked for ever to their current owners.

Clearly not a problem with digital passports and driver's
licenses.

Why?

I walk up to passport control with my (digital or not) passport
and a
mobile phone.Â* The passport has a photograph of me on it and,
maybe,
even more specific identity information which proves pretty
certainly
it's my passport.Â* OK, that's good.

What sort of proof is there that that the phone which has the
covid-19
passport on it is mine?Â* ...

No reason why it cant have your photo too.

A photo can be changed!

Passports go to huge lengths to prevent you changing the picture.

This is the whole point, a passport is designed to be locked to your
identity, that's the whole point of its existence, nowadays there's
more than just the photo identifying it as yours.Â* Plus there's lots
of 'cleverness' preventing people from changing the identity
associated with a passport and also making it difficult to create
false passports.

Phones have none of this, it's trivial to change the 'identity' tags
on a phone, change the picture, register an app with a different bank
account, whatever.Â* The thing is designed to be customised, quite the
opposite of a passport.


Every /serious/ proposal I've seen expects a Covid-19 "certificate" to
contain name and d.o.b. so it can be cross-checked to other ID -
e.g. a
passport or driving licence.Â* If that data is encrypted it'd be well
beyond my DIY ability to change it.

But how does that work in a phone app?Â* I.e. if the app is installed
on Fred's phone and confirms he's been jabbed, Fred then gives (or
sells) his phone to Bert.Â* What happens?

... or do you show the screen of your phone to passport control (or
whatever) and they have to check that the DOB etc. matches your
passport.

Very probably.Â* With cross-checks done automatically by reading the
code from the phone and the data from the passport.Â* That's one
reason countries around the world want /digital/ certificates where
possible.

I don't believe that "countries around the world" have access to our
PP database.Â* Only UK border control has that (indeed even they may
not have that in real time).

Countries around the world have to take documents at face value,
relying upon the built-in anti-fraud devices embedded into the
documents.Â*Â* It is for this reason that *paper* based documentation is
so much better here than digital variants

They may want these documents to be easily digitally read, but they
still want paper documents

I did not say that other countries wanted access to our database.Â* I
said they want digital certificates that can be easily read and
verified.Â* (Digital here includes an encrypted QR code.)

If your "they still want paper documents" applies to vaccination
certificates that's at odds with the WHO and all the other work on
digital options.Â* And with the many who reckon a paper document is
/much/ easier to forge.Â* (ManyÂ* passports are of course no longer just
paper but biometric with embedded chips.Â* Meanwhile the paper
International Certificate of Vaccination or Prophylaxis - "Yellow Card"

[sorry, that should have continued] - "has little protection against
alteration or forgery, does not incorporate digital technology nor have
verifiable link with the holder" (to quote the Royal Society's report).



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 19:26:51 +1000, %%, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

19:26, you sick senile swine? So you've been up and trolling since 00:55
last night, until the next evening, for almost 19!!!! hours, with hardly any
break!

SWALLOW YOUR NEMBUTAL, finally, you subnormal senile troll!

--
Richard addressing senile Rodent Speed:
"**** you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID:

On Fri, 30 Apr 2021 19:29:18 +1000, %%, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
"Who or What is Rod Speed?
Rod Speed is an entirely modern phenomenon. Essentially, Rod Speed
is an insecure and worthless individual who has discovered he can
enhance his own self-esteem in his own eyes by playing "the big, hard
man" on the InterNet."
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On 30/04/2021 11:18, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 28/04/2021 16:08, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Heard on the news they're likely to use the NHS track and trace app as
a vaccine passport.

My phone is a Galaxy S4. Works just fine as a phone and camera and the
things I want a phone for. But too old for the NHS app - which was
presumably written by a pal of BoJo, given I can't see what's so
special about it that it needs the latest phones.

It does not need a particularly recent phone (I think hardware wise all
it needs is Bluetooth Low Energy 4 or above), but does need Android 6 or
later. Most S4s were Android 5 (Lollipop)

Although Samsung don't have an update for this, there are ways of
installing it yourself:

https://www.nextpit.com/how-to-get-a...sung-galaxy-s4

I use the mobile so little for outgoing calls I'm happy with PAYG. And
BT hotspot Wi-Fi access round London, for my parking app, etc.

If I do have to buy a new phone,

There will no doubt be manual ways to achieve the result without a
smartphone, however path of least resistance and all that!

what is going to be the best value? With
at least as good a camera.

Moto does ok for me, but there are other mid range good value options
out there these days. "Good camera" tends to be quite a broad definition
now - some phones take the camera aspect to the extreme.

Doing some Googling says you can use Android 10 with an S4. But each

You can probably use most versions - although later versions are more
resource hungry than earlier ones. So 10 may give a sub optimal
experience, whereas 6 will probably "feel" similar in performance. I saw
a demo of how to install Oreo (8) on it, and it said it works but was a
bit slow.

article I read seems to use a different way. And recommend different
software to do this. All very confusing.

Keep in mind these processes have been put together by a number of
independent third parties, they are not the manufacturer "approved" way
of doing it (since they abandoned supporting the device as soon as they
thought they could get away with it). As a result there are multiple
ways of doing it each if which probably work. So it is probably just a
case of pick one that you can follow where there also seems to be a
number of guides promoting.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
Robin wrote:
On 30/04/2021 08:59, Chris Green wrote:
%% wrote:


"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
%% wrote:
I dare say it wouldnt be too hard to make an app that could look
up
this
info.

It still depends on 'me' proving the app is on 'my' phone. This is
the bit that I don't understand really (though I'm not totally
convinced that the NHS records are so securely related to a
particular
person).

How do you guarantee that the mobile phone that has the
'inoculation
passport' on it is that of the person whose NHS record says that
they
have been inoculated? It's not like a passport which has a picture
of
'me' in it. I can own lots of mobile phones, I can transfer them
to
other people, I can change the fingerprint that unlocks them,
mobile
phones are *not* locked for ever to their current owners.

Clearly not a problem with digital passports and driver's licenses.

Why?

I walk up to passport control with my (digital or not) passport and a
mobile phone. The passport has a photograph of me on it and, maybe,
even more specific identity information which proves pretty certainly
it's my passport. OK, that's good.

What sort of proof is there that that the phone which has the
covid-19
passport on it is mine? ...

No reason why it cant have your photo too.

A photo can be changed!

Passports go to huge lengths to prevent you changing the picture.

This is the whole point, a passport is designed to be locked to your
identity, that's the whole point of its existence, nowadays there's
more than just the photo identifying it as yours. Plus there's lots
of 'cleverness' preventing people from changing the identity
associated with a passport and also making it difficult to create
false passports.

Phones have none of this, it's trivial to change the 'identity' tags
on a phone, change the picture, register an app with a different bank
account, whatever. The thing is designed to be customised, quite the
opposite of a passport.


Every /serious/ proposal I've seen expects a Covid-19 "certificate" to
contain name and d.o.b. so it can be cross-checked to other ID - e.g. a
passport or driving licence. If that data is encrypted it'd be well
beyond my DIY ability to change it.

But how does that work in a phone app? I.e. if the app is installed
on Fred's phone and confirms he's been jabbed, Fred then gives (or
sells) his phone to Bert. What happens?

Same as what happens with a digital passport or digital driver's
license on the phone, they all get wiped by the seller before the
phone is sold. Even if the phone is lost or stolen, any decent
phone can be wiped remotely after you have noticed that it
has been lost or stolen and cant be used by the thief or finder

... or do you show the screen of your phone to passport
control (or whatever) and they have to check that the
DOB etc. matches your passport.

Trivial for the system to do that auto.

In other venues how will this work - would you need
your passport and/or driving licence to be cross
checked with the Covid certificate on your phone?

They cross check with the central database, just like happens
now with digital passports and digital driver's licences.

Thats what happens with even trivial stuff like ID
checks when picking up a parcel or using a pub etc.

"tim..." wrote in message
...


"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 30/04/2021 10:28, Chris Green wrote:
Robin wrote:
On 30/04/2021 08:59, Chris Green wrote:
%% wrote:


"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
%% wrote:
I dare say it wouldnt be too hard to make an app that could look
up
this
info.

It still depends on 'me' proving the app is on 'my' phone. This
is
the bit that I don't understand really (though I'm not totally
convinced that the NHS records are so securely related to a
particular
person).

How do you guarantee that the mobile phone that has the
'inoculation
passport' on it is that of the person whose NHS record says that
they
have been inoculated? It's not like a passport which has a
picture of
'me' in it. I can own lots of mobile phones, I can transfer them
to
other people, I can change the fingerprint that unlocks them,
mobile
phones are *not* locked for ever to their current owners.

Clearly not a problem with digital passports and driver's licenses.

Why?

I walk up to passport control with my (digital or not) passport and
a
mobile phone. The passport has a photograph of me on it and, maybe,
even more specific identity information which proves pretty
certainly
it's my passport. OK, that's good.

What sort of proof is there that that the phone which has the
covid-19
passport on it is mine? ...

No reason why it cant have your photo too.

A photo can be changed!

Passports go to huge lengths to prevent you changing the picture.

This is the whole point, a passport is designed to be locked to your
identity, that's the whole point of its existence, nowadays there's
more than just the photo identifying it as yours. Plus there's lots
of 'cleverness' preventing people from changing the identity
associated with a passport and also making it difficult to create
false passports.

Phones have none of this, it's trivial to change the 'identity' tags
on a phone, change the picture, register an app with a different bank
account, whatever. The thing is designed to be customised, quite the
opposite of a passport.


Every /serious/ proposal I've seen expects a Covid-19 "certificate" to
contain name and d.o.b. so it can be cross-checked to other ID - e.g. a
passport or driving licence. If that data is encrypted it'd be well
beyond my DIY ability to change it.

But how does that work in a phone app? I.e. if the app is installed
on Fred's phone and confirms he's been jabbed, Fred then gives (or
sells) his phone to Bert. What happens?

... or do you show the screen of your phone to passport control (or
whatever) and they have to check that the DOB etc. matches your
passport.

Very probably. With cross-checks done automatically by reading the code
from the phone and the data from the passport. That's one reason
countries around the world want /digital/ certificates where possible.

I don't believe that "countries around the world" have access to our PP
database.

They do have a way to verify that its a valid digital passport,
not a fake.

Only UK border control has that (indeed even they may not have
that in real time).

Countries around the world have to take documents at face value, relying
upon the built-in anti-fraud devices embedded into the documents.

Thats not true of modern digital passports.

It is for this reason that *paper* based documentation is so much better
here than digital variants

Thats bull****.

They may want these documents to be easily digitally read, but they still
want paper documents

Bull****.

On Sat, 1 May 2021 02:50:49 +1000, %%, better known as cantankerous trolling
senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

02:50??? And it's trolling time for you ALREADY, you subnormal trolling
senile cretin? LMAO

--
Sqwertz to Rodent Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

On Sat, 1 May 2021 03:12:26 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile pest's latest troll**** unread

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MID:

On 29/04/2021 15:55, %% wrote:


Same way that electronic passports and drivers
licenses are, confirm with a central database.

So all the details are on a central database. So who now has access to
your medical records? Your local publican, the theatre employee at the
pay desk?

For international travel matching the (travel) passport and vaccination
could be officially checked but how is this going to be achieved for
domestic use? How is the organiser of an event going to ensure that you
haven't entered someone else's details into the phone?



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 29/04/2021 16:17, Chris Green wrote:


No one 'offically stamped' anything that I was aware of when I got my
Covid-19 inoculation. Maybe they did but the checking of identity
wasn't very rigorous, nothing like the requirements for a passport.

+1
Card filled in using a ballpoint pen.
You could see that the people collecting details were volunteers, rather
than getting me to answer questions they gave the answer for me to
confirm with a simple yes.

At the first desk:-
What is your name?
Alan.....
You live at 88 Nowhere Road?
Yes
You attend the A.N.Other Surgery?
Yes

When getting the jab there was another long on-line questionnaire being
filled in. I suspect some of the questions were meant to be answered by
those getting the vaccine but in practice those giving the jabs probably
just gave the stock answers. The only question I was asked was did I
consider myself as White British. I wasn't asked this question for the
first jab.

I did get the questions about feeling well, no other vaccinations within
7 days and on blood thinning medication - someone did point a gun at my
head as I entered the building.



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 29/04/2021 18:24, %% wrote:


Yes it has in other countries.


Have other countries got access to the DVLA records? Foreign Police may
request data but does a car hiring company have access to your drink
during record etc. Judging by many "Border Control" type reality
programs foreign immigration officials don't have access to the UK
passport data base.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 29/04/2021 22:24, %% wrote:

Works fine with digital passports and driver's licenses and
would work just as well with a vaccination passport.

How would this stop me using someone else's details. I've had two jabs
and I set up a "vaccine account" using my NHS/NI number and set a user
name and password. I could then give these details to all family and
friends for them to prove (within the UK) that they could enter, say, a
pub. A doorman checking a phone is going to have to take it at face value.


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On 29/04/2021 22:13, %% wrote:


Can't see why anyone would have faked their identity when getting the
vaccination.


It's not someone faking their identity when getting vaccinated.

It's the ability for someone who hasn't been vaccinated to use someone
else's identity and covid passport to gain access to somewhere that may
require proof of vaccination.

How can any member of the general public, a publican, doorman, theatre
ticket seller etc. see that the passport details are for fred and not joe.

Official photo ID in the UK seems to be limited to passports and driving
licences and not everyone has these, and does your passport photo
actually look like you when viewed in limited lighting.



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alan_m wrote
%% wrote

Same way that electronic passports and drivers
licenses are, confirm with a central database.

So all the details are on a central database.

No need for that with a vaccine passport, just enough details
to ensure that it isnt a fake vaccine passport and that it is yours.

So who now has access to your medical records?

Doesnt need to be anyone except with
your medical record of your covid jabs

Your local publican, the theatre employee at the pay desk?

Nope, no need for any of that on your vaccine passport.

For international travel matching the (travel) passport and vaccination
could be officially checked but how is this going to be achieved for
domestic use?

By having a separate vaccine passport.

How is the organiser of an event going to ensure that you haven't entered
someone else's details into the phone?

By checking that the vaccine passport is yours, the same way
that the cops check that a digital driver's licence is yours and
the same way that digital ID is checked that it is yours when
deciding if you can be served alcohol in a pub or can buy it
at the supermarket or grog shop etc.

"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 29/04/2021 18:24, %% wrote:


Yes it has in other countries.


Have other countries got access to the DVLA records? Foreign Police may
request data but does a car hiring company have access to your drink
during record etc. Judging by many "Border Control" type reality programs
foreign immigration officials don't have access to the UK passport data
base.

Ours do and to other data like having been denied a visa by other countrys
too.

And to their criminal record too, so they can front the individual
with their false claim that they dont have a criminal record and
cancel their visa and frog march them quite literally off to
detention until they can be shipped out of the country on
the next relevant flight from where they came from.

alan_m wrote
%% wrote

Works fine with digital passports and driver's licenses and
would work just as well with a vaccination passport.

How would this stop me using someone else's details.

Same way that is done with digital passports and digital driver's licences.

I've had two jabs and I set up a "vaccine account" using my NHS/NI number
and set a user name and password. I could then give these details to all
family and friends for them to prove (within the UK) that they could
enter, say, a pub.

Thats not a digital vaccination passport.

A doorman checking a phone is going to have to take it at face value.

Nope, just like they dont have to with digital passports and digital
driver's
*licences used to prove that they are allowed to serve you alcohol.

alan_m wrote
%% wrote

Can't see why anyone would have faked their identity when getting the
vaccination.

It's not someone faking their identity when getting vaccinated.

Correct.

It's the ability for someone who hasn't been vaccinated to use someone
else's identity and covid passport to gain access to somewhere that may
require proof of vaccination.

Correct.

How can any member of the general public, a publican, doorman, theatre
ticket seller etc. see that the passport details are for fred and not joe.

Same way they do that when checking that the individual
is old enough to be able to legally be served alcohol or
watch and R rated movie, or buy an R rated video game etc.

Official photo ID in the UK seems to be limited to passports and driving
licences

Yes, but there is no reason why a vaccination
passport cant be done the same way.

and not everyone has these,

Our system allows anyone who needs the same type
of photo ID to have one, for free. Its done by the
same operation that does the driver's licenses.

and does your passport photo actually look like you when viewed in limited
lighting.

Doesnt need to with a digital driver's licence.

On 29/04/2021 22:15, %% wrote:


Clearly not a problem with digital passports and driver's licenses.

But these can be checked by a third party with their own access to the
data base.

If you are stopped driving a car the police will first check the cars
number plate to see who it is registered to and then ask for your name.
If number plate, name, tax, mot, licence and insurance all tie up you,
as a law abiding citizen, are probably in the clear on those points. If
not further questions will be asked, which can be checked on the data
base(s).

The police will not just take the plastic photo driving licence as proof
of ownership, licence validity, insurance etc.

A covid passport on your phone where you are entering the details is no
more valid than having a fake plastic photo driving licence in your
wallet.

If the government is considering covid passport for visits to the pub,
theatre, concerts, football matches, coach trips etc. which third party
is going to check the vaccination data base for the details? You tell
this third party your name is fred so how are they going to establish
that your name is actually fred before looking at the data.

The question has to be if covid passports for domestic use is a sensible
way forward if they are easily circumvented. All the covid apps so far
have been promoted with a loud government fanfare but in reality have
proved to be rather ineffective. How may in this newsgroup have the
Covid app on their phone that is enabled (incl. bluetooth) every time
they leave their home?


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"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


"tim..." wrote in message
...


"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 30/04/2021 10:28, Chris Green wrote:
Robin wrote:
On 30/04/2021 08:59, Chris Green wrote:
%% wrote:


"Chris Green" wrote in message
...
%% wrote:
I dare say it wouldnt be too hard to make an app that could
look up
this
info.

It still depends on 'me' proving the app is on 'my' phone. This
is
the bit that I don't understand really (though I'm not totally
convinced that the NHS records are so securely related to a
particular
person).

How do you guarantee that the mobile phone that has the
'inoculation
passport' on it is that of the person whose NHS record says that
they
have been inoculated? It's not like a passport which has a
picture of
'me' in it. I can own lots of mobile phones, I can transfer them
to
other people, I can change the fingerprint that unlocks them,
mobile
phones are *not* locked for ever to their current owners.

Clearly not a problem with digital passports and driver's
licenses.

Why?

I walk up to passport control with my (digital or not) passport and
a
mobile phone. The passport has a photograph of me on it and,
maybe,
even more specific identity information which proves pretty
certainly
it's my passport. OK, that's good.

What sort of proof is there that that the phone which has the
covid-19
passport on it is mine? ...

No reason why it cant have your photo too.

A photo can be changed!

Passports go to huge lengths to prevent you changing the picture.

This is the whole point, a passport is designed to be locked to your
identity, that's the whole point of its existence, nowadays there's
more than just the photo identifying it as yours. Plus there's lots
of 'cleverness' preventing people from changing the identity
associated with a passport and also making it difficult to create
false passports.

Phones have none of this, it's trivial to change the 'identity' tags
on a phone, change the picture, register an app with a different bank
account, whatever. The thing is designed to be customised, quite the
opposite of a passport.


Every /serious/ proposal I've seen expects a Covid-19 "certificate" to
contain name and d.o.b. so it can be cross-checked to other ID - e.g.
a
passport or driving licence. If that data is encrypted it'd be well
beyond my DIY ability to change it.

But how does that work in a phone app? I.e. if the app is installed
on Fred's phone and confirms he's been jabbed, Fred then gives (or
sells) his phone to Bert. What happens?

... or do you show the screen of your phone to passport control (or
whatever) and they have to check that the DOB etc. matches your
passport.

Very probably. With cross-checks done automatically by reading the code
from the phone and the data from the passport. That's one reason
countries around the world want /digital/ certificates where possible.

I don't believe that "countries around the world" have access to our PP
database.

They do have a way to verify that its a valid digital passport,
not a fake.

"relying upon the built-in anti-fraud devices embedded into the documents."

Only UK border control has that (indeed even they may not have
that in real time).

Countries around the world have to take documents at face value, relying
upon the built-in anti-fraud devices embedded into the documents.

Thats not true of modern digital passports.

of course it is

what other way of doing it do the have?

It is for this reason that *paper* based documentation is so much better
here than digital variants

Thats bull****.

They may want these documents to be easily digitally read, but they still
want paper documents

Bull****.

you simply cannot embed all of the un-copy-able security into a digital PP.

It's not possible

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
alan_m wrote
%% wrote

Same way that electronic passports and drivers
licenses are, confirm with a central database.

So all the details are on a central database.

No need for that with a vaccine passport, just enough details
to ensure that it isnt a fake vaccine passport and that it is yours.

and how the flip can the current proposals for Digital vaccinate PP provide
that certainty?

So who now has access to your medical records?

Doesnt need to be anyone except with
your medical record of your covid jabs

Your local publican, the theatre employee at the pay desk?

Nope, no need for any of that on your vaccine passport.

For international travel matching the (travel) passport and vaccination
could be officially checked but how is this going to be achieved for
domestic use?

By having a separate vaccine passport.

I think that you are assuming a level of security into these PPs that isn't
going to be there

How is the organiser of an event going to ensure that you haven't entered
someone else's details into the phone?

By checking that the vaccine passport is yours,

and how the **** do they do that?

the same way
that the cops check that a digital driver's licence is yours

that has a picture on it

and
the same way that digital ID is checked that it is yours when
deciding if you can be served alcohol in a pub or can buy it
at the supermarket or grog shop etc.

they also have pictures on them

"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 29/04/2021 18:24, %% wrote:


Yes it has in other countries.


Have other countries got access to the DVLA records?

Not routinely, nope

that's what all the stuff about getting a "code" for use at a car hire desk
is all about

but it only gives specific limited access for a limited time

Foreign Police may request data

but they won't get an answer in real time

On 01/05/2021 08:06, Rod Speed wrote:

By checking that the vaccine passport is yours, the same way
that the cops check that a digital driver's licence is yours

They have fast access to the data base and if they suspect that the
licence is not yours access to much more data that can be used to
establish the validity of the bit of plastic. There is no legal
requirement to carry your driving licence in the UK and these days the
Police have instant access to various data bases to establish if you and
the car is road legal (licence details, car registration, MOT,
insurance, tax, owners address, wanted in connection with crime etc.)


The changes are that even if stopped and you don't have your licence
with you their checks and few answered questions means that you no
longer have to produce documents at the Police station within 7 days,
assuming that you are road legal.


and
the same way that digital ID is checked that it is yours when
deciding if you can be served alcohol in a pub

No such requirement in the UK. If the bar staff think that you are
underage they can refuse to serve you even with a fake third party "age
ID card".

There is no outward way of telling if someone has a vaccination or not
based of appearance alone.


or can buy it
at the supermarket or grog shop etc.

Often this is only based on a more senior member of staff confirming
that you are over the legal age based on appearance or or just using a
CC for purchase. Often the check is made because the till operative is
under age to serve alcohol and a more senior person has to approve
accepting the purchase.


--
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%% wrote:
Every /serious/ proposal I've seen expects a Covid-19 "certificate" to
contain name and d.o.b. so it can be cross-checked to other ID - e.g. a
passport or driving licence. If that data is encrypted it'd be well
beyond my DIY ability to change it.

But how does that work in a phone app? I.e. if the app is installed
on Fred's phone and confirms he's been jabbed, Fred then gives (or
sells) his phone to Bert. What happens?

Same as what happens with a digital passport or digital driver's
license on the phone, they all get wiped by the seller before the
phone is sold. Even if the phone is lost or stolen, any decent
phone can be wiped remotely after you have noticed that it
has been lost or stolen and cant be used by the thief or finder

Er, but the whole point is that a dishonest person might *not* wipe it
with the intention of allowing someone else to use the covid passport.

Thats what happens with even trivial stuff like ID
checks when picking up a parcel or using a pub etc.

No it isn't, they just look at the picture on your ID and check the
name is right.


--
Chris Green
·

On 29/04/2021 08:37, David Wade wrote:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...line.nhsonline

but it still needs Android 5 to work.

But does it work with all the different software that surgeries are using?

The App suggests that it allows access to

order your repeat prescriptions
€¢ book and manage appointments at your GP surgery
€¢ get health information and advice
€¢ view your health record securely

But I think its already been established from posts in this groups that
different surgeries are using different software for this and some
surgeries are not supporting full access to all facilities, such as
medial records including, say, flu vaccinations. In some cases the
surgeries software doesn't seem to be anyway connected with (digital)
hospital records.


--
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On 30/04/2021 09:49, Robin wrote:


Every /serious/ proposal I've seen expects a Covid-19 "certificate" to
contain name and d.o.b. so it can be cross-checked to other ID - e.g. a
passport or driving licence.Â* If that data is encrypted it'd be well
beyond my DIY ability to change it.


You are now assuming that everyone has a passport or driving licence!
My mother, for instance no longer has either. You cannot encrypt data
that doesn't exist.



--
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On Sat, 1 May 2021 17:15:06 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
dennis@home to retarded trolling senile Rodent:
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Message-ID:

On Sat, 1 May 2021 17:23:35 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
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MID:

On Sat, 1 May 2021 17:11:32 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

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MID:

On Sat, 1 May 2021 17:06:27 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
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MID:

On 30/04/2021 17:50, %% wrote:

They cross check with the central database, just like happens
now with digital passports and digital driver's licences.

Thats what happens with even trivial stuff like ID
checks when picking up a parcel or using a pub etc.

Bull****

Even if you take your passport or drivers licence as proof of identity
no further data base checks are performed. People without a passport,
drivers licence, or bank/CC account can usually pick up a parcel using a
printed out utility bill.

Where a data base check can be performed is for a parcel where you have
been sent a unique one off code to unlock a storage box. This is not
proof of identity but just a linking of the packed to any tom, dick or
harry who ordered it. Fred or joe cannot check that who turns up at the
storage location is the correct person.

--
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alan_m wrote:
On 30/04/2021 09:49, Robin wrote:


Every /serious/ proposal I've seen expects a Covid-19 "certificate" to
contain name and d.o.b. so it can be cross-checked to other ID - e.g. a
passport or driving licence.Â* If that data is encrypted it'd be well
beyond my DIY ability to change it.


You are now assuming that everyone has a passport or driving licence!
My mother, for instance no longer has either. You cannot encrypt data
that doesn't exist.

Not to mention that, presumably, the Covid-19 "certificate" will
simply display the data on the phone's screen, trivally easy to fake
one. If it has a code of some sort with it that might help but then
we're back again at "how will the person checking the certificate know
the code is valid"?

--
Chris Green
·

On 01/05/2021 09:38, alan_m wrote:
On 29/04/2021 08:37, David Wade wrote:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...line.nhsonline

but it still needs Android 5 to work.

But does it work with all the different software that surgeries are using?

The App suggests that it allows access to

Â*order your repeat prescriptions
€¢ book and manage appointments at your GP surgery
€¢ get health information and advice
€¢ view your health record securely

But I think its already been established from posts in this groups that
different surgeries are using different software for this and some
surgeries are not supporting full access to all facilities, such as
medial records including, say, flu vaccinations. In some cases the
surgeries software doesn't seem to be anyway connected with (digital)
hospital records.


It does not have access to my medical records but does show my Covid
Vaccinations. I think the Medical Records is more legal and they don'tr
to be sued..

Dave

alan_m wrote
%% wrote

Clearly not a problem with digital passports and driver's licenses.

But these can be checked by a third party with their own access to the
data base.

So can a digital vaccination passport.

If you are stopped driving a car the police will first check the cars
number plate to see who it is registered to and then ask for your name. If
number plate, name, tax, mot, licence and insurance all tie up you, as a
law abiding citizen, are probably in the clear on those points. If not
further questions will be asked, which can be checked on the data base(s).

Just as true of a digital vaccination passport.

The police will not just take the plastic photo driving licence as proof
of ownership, licence validity, insurance etc.

Just as true of a digital vaccination passport.

A covid passport on your phone where you are entering the details

The covid passport doesnt have to be done like that.

is no more valid than having a fake plastic photo driving licence in your
wallet.

If the government is considering covid passport for visits to the pub,
theatre, concerts, football matches, coach trips etc. which third party is
going to check the vaccination data base for the details?

Same one that check your digital driver's licence
to see if they can legally server you alcohol.

You tell this third party your name is fred

Nope, you show them the digital covid passport.

so how are they going to establish that your name is actually fred before
looking at the data.

Same way they check its your digital driver's licence
when deciding whether they will serve you alcohol.

The question has to be if covid passports for domestic use is a sensible
way forward if they are easily circumvented.

They arent, just like digital driver's licences and digital passports arent.

All the covid apps so far have been promoted with a loud government
fanfare but in reality have proved to be rather ineffective.

Thats not true of digital driver's licences and digital passports.

How may in this newsgroup have the Covid app on their phone that is
enabled (incl. bluetooth) every time they leave their home?

Irrelevant to whether a digital covid passport is viable.

The covid app doesnt allow you into a pub or gym etc.

In article ,
alan_m wrote:
On 29/04/2021 16:17, Chris Green wrote:


No one 'offically stamped' anything that I was aware of when I got my
Covid-19 inoculation. Maybe they did but the checking of identity
wasn't very rigorous, nothing like the requirements for a passport.

+1
Card filled in using a ballpoint pen.
You could see that the people collecting details were volunteers, rather
than getting me to answer questions they gave the answer for me to
confirm with a simple yes.

At the first desk:-
What is your name?
Alan.....
You live at 88 Nowhere Road?
Yes
You attend the A.N.Other Surgery?
Yes

When getting the jab there was another long on-line questionnaire being
filled in. I suspect some of the questions were meant to be answered by
those getting the vaccine but in practice those giving the jabs probably
just gave the stock answers. The only question I was asked was did I
consider myself as White British. I wasn't asked this question for the
first jab.

The only one filled in for me was "Are you breast feeding or pregnant". The
questioner assumed "no" was the right answer.

I did get the questions about feeling well, no other vaccinations within
7 days and on blood thinning medication - someone did point a gun at my
head as I entered the building.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

In article ,
alan_m wrote:
On 29/04/2021 22:13, %% wrote:


Can't see why anyone would have faked their identity when getting the
vaccination.


It's not someone faking their identity when getting vaccinated.

It's the ability for someone who hasn't been vaccinated to use someone
else's identity and covid passport to gain access to somewhere that may
require proof of vaccination.

How can any member of the general public, a publican, doorman, theatre
ticket seller etc. see that the passport details are for fred and not joe.

Official photo ID in the UK seems to be limited to passports and driving
licences and not everyone has these, and does your passport photo
actually look like you when viewed in limited lighting.


I have my 1940 National Identity Card. It has no photograph.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle