This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
almost more so than the Amazon fiasco (qv).

I almost don't dare to touch the mouse pad lest the display
all disappears up into the top left corner with icons for
each open program.

This is * B L O O D Y * annoying.

Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted
and unnecessary facility??????????????????????

gareth evans wrote:

Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted
and unnecessary facility?

I've never experienced any such "facility".

On 28/04/2021 12:45, gareth evans wrote:
This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
almost more so than the Amazon fiasco (qv).

I almost don't dare to touch the mouse pad lest the display
all disappears up into the top left corner with icons for
each open program.

This is * B L O O D Y *Â* annoying.

Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted
and unnecessary facility??????????????????????


How do you get the the open programs disappearing into icons in the top
left corner?

I normally use Alt-Tab to cycle through the open applications.

On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 12:45:57 +0100, gareth evans wrote:

This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
almost more so than the Amazon fiasco (qv).

I almost don't dare to touch the mouse pad lest the display all
disappears up into the top left corner with icons for each open program.

This is * B L O O D Y * annoying.

Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted and unnecessary
facility??????????????????????

What version of win10 are you using..

On 28/04/2021 13:18, SH wrote:
On 28/04/2021 12:45, gareth evans wrote:
This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
almost more so than the Amazon fiasco (qv).

I almost don't dare to touch the mouse pad lest the display
all disappears up into the top left corner with icons for
each open program.

This is * B L O O D Y * annoying.

Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted
and unnecessary facility??????????????????????


How do you get the the open programs disappearing into icons in the top
left corner?

Windows Key + Tab is the official way, but there's also some
mouse stroking that does it, and I don't know what because whenever
I try to do it deliberately to try to work out what I'm doing and
so to stop doing it, I can never get it to happen!!!!!!!!

On 28/04/2021 13:52, jon wrote:
On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 12:45:57 +0100, gareth evans wrote:

This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
almost more so than the Amazon fiasco (qv).

I almost don't dare to touch the mouse pad lest the display all
disappears up into the top left corner with icons for each open program.

This is * B L O O D Y * annoying.

Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted and unnecessary
facility??????????????????????

What version of win10 are you using..


Whatever is foisted onto me by the unstoppable Windows updates.

gareth evans wrote:

Windows Key + Tab is the official way, but there's also some
mouse stroking that does it

A 3hree or four finger upward swipe, you can turn them off in
settings/touchpad

On 28/04/2021 14:25, gareth evans wrote:
On 28/04/2021 13:52, jon wrote:
On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 12:45:57 +0100, gareth evans wrote:

This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
almost more so than the Amazon fiasco (qv).

I almost don't dare to touch the mouse pad lest the display all
disappears up into the top left corner with icons for each open program.

This is * B L O O D Y *Â* annoying.

Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted and unnecessary
facility??????????????????????

What version of win10 are you using..


Whatever is foisted onto me by the unstoppable Windows updates.


Hold the windows key, hit R, type winver in the edit box, then click ok


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 28/04/2021 14:25, gareth evans wrote:
On 28/04/2021 13:18, SH wrote:
On 28/04/2021 12:45, gareth evans wrote:
This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
almost more so than the Amazon fiasco (qv).

I almost don't dare to touch the mouse pad lest the display
all disappears up into the top left corner with icons for
each open program.

This is * B L O O D Y *Â* annoying.

Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted
and unnecessary facility??????????????????????


How do you get the the open programs disappearing into icons in the top
left corner?

Windows Key + Tab is the official way, but there's also some
mouse stroking that does it, and I don't know what because whenever
I try to do it deliberately to try to work out what I'm doing and
so to stop doing it, I can never get it to happen!!!!!!!!



that sounds like you need to take a look at your mouse settings & hot
mouse strokes?

On 28/04/2021 14:59, Andy Burns wrote:
gareth evans wrote:

Windows Key + Tab is the official way, but there's also some
mouse stroking that does it

A 3hree or four finger upward swipe, you can turn them off in
settings/touchpad

I'd been referred to that before, but no such selections in
my settings / touchpad.

.... and I never do a 3 or 4 fingered swipe so it's not that!

On 28/04/2021 15:08, John Rumm wrote:
On 28/04/2021 14:25, gareth evans wrote:
On 28/04/2021 13:52, jon wrote:
On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 12:45:57 +0100, gareth evans wrote:

This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
almost more so than the Amazon fiasco (qv).

I almost don't dare to touch the mouse pad lest the display all
disappears up into the top left corner with icons for each open
program.

This is * B L O O D Y * annoying.

Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted and
unnecessary
facility??????????????????????

What version of win10 are you using..


Whatever is foisted onto me by the unstoppable Windows updates.


Hold the windows key, hit R, type winver in the edit box, then click ok



Version 2004 Build 19041.928

gareth evans wrote:
This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
[...]
Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted
and unnecessary facility??????????????????????

Install linux? :-)

.... well, somebody had to suggest it...


#Paul

On 28/04/2021 12:45, gareth evans wrote:
This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
almost more so than the Amazon fiasco (qv).

I almost don't dare to touch the mouse pad lest the display
all disappears up into the top left corner with icons for
each open program.

This is * B L O O D Y *Â* annoying.

Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted
and unnecessary facility??????????????????????

If you mean Task View, might you have the Task View button on the
taskbar and be clicking that accidentally? If so you can get rid of it
by right clicking the icon and unticking Task View in the menu.

https://appuals.com/how-to-disable-t...on-windows-10/





--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 28/04/2021 16:18, Robin wrote:
On 28/04/2021 12:45, gareth evans wrote:
This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
almost more so than the Amazon fiasco (qv).

I almost don't dare to touch the mouse pad lest the display
all disappears up into the top left corner with icons for
each open program.

This is * B L O O D Y * annoying.

Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted
and unnecessary facility??????????????????????

If you mean Task View, might you have the Task View button on the
taskbar and be clicking that accidentally? If so you can get rid of it
by right clicking the icon and unticking Task View in the menu.

https://appuals.com/how-to-disable-t...on-windows-10/

No. I know all about that and the Windows+tab to get it.

I've tried 3 and 4 finger swiping, left, right, up, down and
diagonally and can't trigger it, so what triggers it leaves me
mystified.

Perhaps it's something to do with a 7, nearly 8, year old laptop?

On 28/04/2021 12:45, gareth evans wrote:
This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
almost more so than the Amazon fiasco (qv).

I almost don't dare to touch the mouse pad lest the display
all disappears up into the top left corner with icons for
each open program.

This is * B L O O D Y *Â* annoying.

Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted
and unnecessary facility??????????????????????

ok, reading between the lines a bit here, I would guess you are ending
up in "task view". (it shows a map of smaller versions of every window
on a particular screen, plus a timeline of documents opened recently -
also serves as a place to create extra virtual desktops to allow groups
of windows to be swapped in and out quickly - quite handy on small
laptop screens).

You can get to it on recent versions of Win 10 by clicking the "stacked
boxes" icon close to the search gadget on the task bar.

Now, there are a couple of different systems for doing stuff with a
trackpad. The "modern" one is with "gestures" - however these are
generally only suited to multi-touch trackpads, and not all laptops have
these. If yours is supported, then Settings-Devices-Mouse & Touchpad,
will let you configure these.

For systems that lack muti-touch capability there are also "edge swipes"
or "edge gestures". A swipe on the left edge of the pad will go into
task view on a recentish version of Win 10

Edge swipes can be enabled and disabled, but windows leaves this to the
vendor of the trackpad if they have supplied their own version. Some
vendor's drivers allow these to be disabled, however some don't. For
those that don't, you can just opt to uninstall the vendors driver and
windows will revert to its default Human Interface Device driver for
most touch pads. That will normally disable them, or at least provide a
configuration option.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 28/04/2021 17:54, gareth evans wrote:
On 28/04/2021 16:18, Robin wrote:
On 28/04/2021 12:45, gareth evans wrote:
This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
almost more so than the Amazon fiasco (qv).

I almost don't dare to touch the mouse pad lest the display
all disappears up into the top left corner with icons for
each open program.

This is * B L O O D Y *Â* annoying.

Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted
and unnecessary facility??????????????????????

If you mean Task View, might you have the Task View button on the
taskbar and be clicking that accidentally? If so you can get rid of it
by right clicking the icon and unticking Task View in the menu.

https://appuals.com/how-to-disable-t...on-windows-10/

No. I know all about that and the Windows+tab to get it.

I've tried 3 and 4 finger swiping, left, right, up, down and
diagonally and can't trigger it, so what triggers it leaves me
mystified.

Perhaps it's something to do with a 7, nearly 8, year old laptop?



Sorry, I can't help further. But - with apologies if I'm the only one
who is unclear - is it Task View you are triggering or is it something else?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 28/04/2021 18:30, Robin wrote:
Sorry, I can't help further. But - with apologies if I'm the only one
who is unclear - is it Task View you are triggering or is it something
else?


I didn't know that it was called Task View, but yes, that is what comes up.

I've been a Wondows user since 3.11 (and was then a programmer in VB6)
and I do not appreciate new unwanted and unexplained facilities being
foisted on me.

"gareth evans" wrote in message
...
On 28/04/2021 16:18, Robin wrote:
On 28/04/2021 12:45, gareth evans wrote:
This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
almost more so than the Amazon fiasco (qv).

I almost don't dare to touch the mouse pad lest the display
all disappears up into the top left corner with icons for
each open program.

This is * B L O O D Y * annoying.

Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted
and unnecessary facility??????????????????????

If you mean Task View, might you have the Task View button on the
taskbar and be clicking that accidentally? If so you can get rid of it
by right clicking the icon and unticking Task View in the menu.

https://appuals.com/how-to-disable-t...on-windows-10/

No. I know all about that and the Windows+tab to get it.

I've tried 3 and 4 finger swiping, left, right, up, down and
diagonally and can't trigger it, so what triggers it leaves me
mystified.

Perhaps it's something to do with a 7, nearly 8, year old laptop?

Quite likely. Most likely the touchpad cant do fancy stuff like 3/4 finger
swipes.

On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 05:20:16 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH the trolling senile cretin's latest troll**** unread

--
Archibald Tarquin Blenkinsopp addressing Rodent Speed:
"You really are a clueless pillock."
MID:

On 28/04/2021 16:02, #Paul wrote:
gareth evans wrote:
This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
[...]
Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted
and unnecessary facility??????????????????????

Install linux? :-)

... well, somebody had to suggest it...

I'd already said in another life that I'm getting more and
more ****ed-off with Microsoft that the next PC I go for will
be Linuxy

On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 21:00:44 +0100, gareth evans
wrote:

On 28/04/2021 16:02, #Paul wrote:
gareth evans wrote:
This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
[...]
Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted
and unnecessary facility??????????????????????

Install linux? :-)

... well, somebody had to suggest it...

I'd already said in another life that I'm getting more and
more ****ed-off with Microsoft that the next PC I go for will
be Linuxy

Before you commit in any way you can run Linux on your existing PC
from a DVD or USB drive and start to get a feel for it?

Whilst I have a few Linux only machines, I also have it dual boot
(with Windows) on some and on a couple on external / USB drive. If you
stick it on a 64G SSD in a USB3 external enclosure and in a USB3 port
on a PC / laptop it runs pretty quickly. Once finished you unplug it,
reboot and your PC is back as it was. ;-)

It is a good idea to have such a solution handy in any case, Linux
Mint is pretty good and user friendly.

https://linuxmint.com/

Cheers, T i m

On 28/04/2021 21:25, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 21:00:44 +0100, gareth evans
wrote:

On 28/04/2021 16:02, #Paul wrote:
gareth evans wrote:
This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
[...]
Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted
and unnecessary facility??????????????????????

Install linux? :-)

... well, somebody had to suggest it...

I'd already said in another life that I'm getting more and
more ****ed-off with Microsoft that the next PC I go for will
be Linuxy

Before you commit in any way you can run Linux on your existing PC
from a DVD or USB drive and start to get a feel for it?

Whilst I have a few Linux only machines, I also have it dual boot
(with Windows) on some and on a couple on external / USB drive. If you
stick it on a 64G SSD in a USB3 external enclosure and in a USB3 port
on a PC / laptop it runs pretty quickly. Once finished you unplug it,
reboot and your PC is back as it was. ;-)

It is a good idea to have such a solution handy in any case, Linux
Mint is pretty good and user friendly.

https://linuxmint.com/

Cheers, T i m


Or you could download the linux ISOs and load them into Hyper V (as
local installation source) which is part of Windows so you can try Linux
from within the Windows 10 desktop?

You do have to turn off Secure Boot setting or Linux won't load within
Hyper-V

You can then delete the VM if you don't like that flavour of Linux or if
you do, ytou can thengo the whole hog and install linux on your disk of
choice and boot off that.

Another way is to download & create a LiveDVD/CD and boot off that but
it then is in Read only mode and does not write anything to your
physical disks

On 28/04/2021 21:25, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 21:00:44 +0100, gareth evans
wrote:

On 28/04/2021 16:02, #Paul wrote:
gareth evans wrote:
This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
[...]
Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted
and unnecessary facility??????????????????????

Install linux? :-)

... well, somebody had to suggest it...

I'd already said in another life that I'm getting more and
more ****ed-off with Microsoft that the next PC I go for will
be Linuxy

Before you commit in any way you can run Linux on your existing PC
from a DVD or USB drive and start to get a feel for it?

Whilst I have a few Linux only machines, I also have it dual boot
(with Windows) on some and on a couple on external / USB drive. If you
stick it on a 64G SSD in a USB3 external enclosure and in a USB3 port
on a PC / laptop it runs pretty quickly. Once finished you unplug it,
reboot and your PC is back as it was. ;-)

It is a good idea to have such a solution handy in any case, Linux
Mint is pretty good and user friendly.

https://linuxmint.com/

I already have dual-boot with linux on a windows xp machine, but it's
only a single processor so slow by modern comparison so don't really use
it at all except for powering up once a week to keep the battery charged.

Have used linux in a number of contracts.

On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 21:51:43 +0100, gareth evans
wrote:

On 28/04/2021 21:25, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 21:00:44 +0100, gareth evans
wrote:

On 28/04/2021 16:02, #Paul wrote:
gareth evans wrote:
This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
[...]
Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted
and unnecessary facility??????????????????????

Install linux? :-)

... well, somebody had to suggest it...

I'd already said in another life that I'm getting more and
more ****ed-off with Microsoft that the next PC I go for will
be Linuxy

Before you commit in any way you can run Linux on your existing PC
from a DVD or USB drive and start to get a feel for it?

Whilst I have a few Linux only machines, I also have it dual boot
(with Windows) on some and on a couple on external / USB drive. If you
stick it on a 64G SSD in a USB3 external enclosure and in a USB3 port
on a PC / laptop it runs pretty quickly. Once finished you unplug it,
reboot and your PC is back as it was. ;-)

It is a good idea to have such a solution handy in any case, Linux
Mint is pretty good and user friendly.

https://linuxmint.com/

I already have dual-boot with linux on a windows xp machine, but it's
only a single processor so slow by modern comparison so don't really use
it at all except for powering up once a week to keep the battery charged.

So you mean 'powering it up' rather than 'booting it up' as isn't MoBo
partially powered (and so the BIOS / CMOS battery), assuming it's an
ATX machine?

Have used linux in a number of contracts.

Ah, cool, but nothing like actually trying to use it as your own daily
desktop to see if it will work for you or not. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

No but I've apparently turned the screen upside down or sideways before, but
as I cannot see it its only seen by an unblind person. grin.

Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Andy Burns" wrote in message
...
gareth evans wrote:

Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted
and unnecessary facility?

I've never experienced any such "facility".

On 28 Apr 2021 20:37:25 GMT, Tim Streater
wrote:

On 28 Apr 2021 at 16:02:43 BST, #Paul #Paul wrote:

gareth evans wrote:
This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
[...]
Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted
and unnecessary facility??????????????????????

Install linux? :-)

... well, somebody had to suggest it...

So how, in Linux (specifically Mint 20.1 Cinnamon) do I pin an app to the
taskbar or whatever it's called?

Don't you right click on the app in the menu and do it from there
(from memory)? I thought you got the choice of taskbar (or whatever
it's called) or desktop?

a) MacOS - simple, just drop it on the Dock where you want it. Use drag/drop
to reorganise your Dock icons

It's funny, one of the things that ****ed me off about MacOS (at the
time possibly) was the inability to create a simple text file on the
desktop. It was also as easy as it always has been on Windows on Mint
until I think recently, where they seem to have dropping such things
off. You can generally add them back on again with come CLI CopyPaste
wizardry. (Like being able to open a folder as Admin from the GUI /
File Manager (Nemo?), you have to add that back manually).

b) Win7 - Simple, just drop it on the taskbar where you want it. Harder to
reorganise.

c) Win10 - Similar to Win7

d) Mint 20.1 - blowed if I could find a way to do it.

e) RPi - even worse.

That's hardware though, all the rest were OS's?

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 21:34:22 +0100, SH wrote:

On 28/04/2021 21:25, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 21:00:44 +0100, gareth evans
wrote:

On 28/04/2021 16:02, #Paul wrote:
gareth evans wrote:
This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
[...]
Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted
and unnecessary facility??????????????????????

Install linux? :-)

... well, somebody had to suggest it...

I'd already said in another life that I'm getting more and
more ****ed-off with Microsoft that the next PC I go for will
be Linuxy

Before you commit in any way you can run Linux on your existing PC
from a DVD or USB drive and start to get a feel for it?

Whilst I have a few Linux only machines, I also have it dual boot
(with Windows) on some and on a couple on external / USB drive. If you
stick it on a 64G SSD in a USB3 external enclosure and in a USB3 port
on a PC / laptop it runs pretty quickly. Once finished you unplug it,
reboot and your PC is back as it was. ;-)

It is a good idea to have such a solution handy in any case, Linux
Mint is pretty good and user friendly.

https://linuxmint.com/

Or you could download the linux ISOs and load them into Hyper V (as
local installation source) which is part of Windows so you can try Linux
from within the Windows 10 desktop?

Whilst I've run Linux in a VB VM and container, it all adds to the
complexity and more of a risk of trashing the host OS by mistake than
running say a live DVD/USB or even running it on a USB attached drive
(once installed etc).

You do have to turn off Secure Boot setting or Linux won't load within
Hyper-V

And that can then cause an issue for Windows. ;-(

You can then delete the VM if you don't like that flavour of Linux or if
you do,

Yes, it is easier running it on a VM for that.

ytou can thengo the whole hog and install linux on your disk of
choice and boot off that.

That's what I do here on a couple of PC's. I have removable SATA
drives and can mix n match easily with no risk to the 'other' OS's.

Another way is to download & create a LiveDVD/CD and boot off that but
it then is in Read only mode and does not write anything to your
physical disks

Yeah, I suggested that above and is something I have often left with
others (LiveDVD) both for them and me either to play with on their
machines or to use as an emergency repair tool.

I can generally get people to boot a LiveDVD (remotely, by phone etc),
get online (if Wireless), download, 'install' and run Teamviewer (that
is actually the Windows version running in WINE) and then get access
to their machine, in one instance, actually installing Linux for them
remotely. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 28/04/2021 21:34, SH wrote:
On 28/04/2021 21:25, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 21:00:44 +0100, gareth evans
wrote:

On 28/04/2021 16:02, #Paul wrote:
gareth evans wrote:
This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
[...]
Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted
and unnecessary facility??????????????????????

Install linux? :-)

... well, somebody had to suggest it...

I'd already said in another life that I'm getting more and
more ****ed-off with Microsoft that the next PC I go for will
be Linuxy

Before you commit in any way you can run Linux on your existing PC
from a DVD or USB drive and start to get a feel for it?

Whilst I have a few Linux only machines, I also have it dual boot
(with Windows) on some and on a couple on external / USB drive. If you
stick it on a 64G SSD in a USB3 external enclosure and in a USB3 port
on a PC / laptop it runs pretty quickly. Once finished you unplug it,
reboot and your PC is back as it was. ;-)

It is a good idea to have such a solution handy in any case, Linux
Mint is pretty good and user friendly.

https://linuxmint.com/

Cheers, T i m


Or you could download the linux ISOs and load them into Hyper V (as
local installation source) which is part of Windows so you can try Linux
from within the Windows 10 desktop?

You do have to turn off Secure Boot setting or Linux won't load within
Hyper-V

You can then delete the VM if you don't like that flavour of Linux or if
you do, ytou can thengo the whole hog and install linux on your disk of
choice and boot off that.

Another way is to download & create a LiveDVD/CD and boot off that but
it then is in Read only mode and does not write anything to your
physical disks

I've historically used VirtualBox. the Windows Sandbox doesn't provide
access to USB devices so that's a no-no for me.

Is Hyper V a good alternative to VirtualBox?

For Tim, VirtualBox does have some 'pre-installed' OSes.

I've historically used VirtualBox. the Windows Sandbox doesn't provide
access to USB devices so that's a no-no for me.

Is Hyper V a good alternative to VirtualBox?

I've never used virtualbox so can't comment on it.

Hyper-v is bundled with Windows 10. You do have to enable it in the
control panel and also enable virtualisation in the motherboard's BIOS.

For Tim, VirtualBox does have some 'pre-installed' OSes.

Or you could download the linux ISOs and load them into Hyper V (as
local installation source) which is part of Windows so you can try Linux

from within the Windows 10 desktop?

Yes thats correct

Whilst I've run Linux in a VB VM and container, it all adds to the
complexity and more of a risk of trashing the host OS by mistake than
running say a live DVD/USB or even running it on a USB attached drive
(once installed etc).

Thta has not been my experience. as long as teh test OS is within a VM,
I struggle to see how you can trash the Host OS? If you trash within the
VM, thats OK as you can then delete the virtual machine and start again
with a new VM.

You do have to turn off Secure Boot setting or Linux won't load within
Hyper-V

And that can then cause an issue for Windows. ;-(

No, I was talking about the Secure boot within the Hyper-v manaager for
when you create the new VM, not the secure boot setting in teh BIOS
which is for the Host OS.

You can then delete the VM if you don't like that flavour of Linux or if
you do,

Yes, it is easier running it on a VM for that.

you can then go the whole hog and install linux on your disk of
choice and boot off that.

That's what I do here on a couple of PC's. I have removable SATA
drives and can mix n match easily with no risk to the 'other' OS's.

Uh Huh.

Another way is to download & create a LiveDVD/CD and boot off that but
it then is in Read only mode and does not write anything to your
physical disks

Yeah, I suggested that above and is something I have often left with
others (LiveDVD) both for them and me either to play with on their
machines or to use as an emergency repair tool.

Yes, like Hirens Boot CD or Darik's Boot 'n' Nuke!

I can generally get people to boot a LiveDVD (remotely, by phone etc),
get online (if Wireless), download, 'install' and run Teamviewer (that
is actually the Windows version running in WINE) and then get access
to their machine, in one instance, actually installing Linux for them
remotely. ;-)
Cheers, T i m

On 29/04/2021 08:46, SH wrote:
I've historically used VirtualBox. the Windows Sandbox doesn't provide
access to USB devices so that's a no-no for me.

Is Hyper V a good alternative to VirtualBox?

I've never used virtualbox so can't comment on it.


Virtual Box is good, the main difference for me was that you couldn't
start Virtual Box VMs automatically when the PC booted (well not
easily). Where as with Hyper-V you could.

Nowadays I mainly use WSL2 and docker, but that doesn't have a gui
interface so no good for testing the Linux desktop.

On 29/04/2021 09:03, Pancho wrote:
On 29/04/2021 08:46, SH wrote:
I've historically used VirtualBox. the Windows Sandbox doesn't
provide access to USB devices so that's a no-no for me.

Is Hyper V a good alternative to VirtualBox?

I've never used virtualbox so can't comment on it.


Virtual Box is good, the main difference for me was that you couldn't
start Virtual Box VMs automatically when the PC booted (well not
easily). Where as with Hyper-V you could.

Nowadays I mainly use WSL2 and docker, but that doesn't have a gui
interface so no good for testing the Linux desktop.



Pssst... There is WSLg available for beta testers and and Windows
Preview subscribers...... so you can run Linux GUI applications


https://devblogs.microsoft.com/comma...m-for-linux-2/

On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 08:54:06 +0100, SH wrote:

snip

Whilst I've run Linux in a VB VM and container, it all adds to the
complexity and more of a risk of trashing the host OS by mistake than
running say a live DVD/USB or even running it on a USB attached drive
(once installed etc).

Thta has not been my experience. as long as teh test OS is within a VM,
I struggle to see how you can trash the Host OS?

Granted not a particularly common scenario but one that happened.

I built BIL a PC running Ubuntu as a sort of feasibility exercise and
had a Windows VM on there for his accounting app. After using it for
some time, he applied a big windows update, the virtual drive
allocation filled the remaining space on the host OS and it all ground
to a nasty halt. The VM got corrupted (as well) and he never recovered
the data from it.

If you trash within the
VM, thats OK as you can then delete the virtual machine and start again
with a new VM.

Sure.

You do have to turn off Secure Boot setting or Linux won't load within
Hyper-V

And that can then cause an issue for Windows. ;-(

No, I was talking about the Secure boot within the Hyper-v manaager for
when you create the new VM, not the secure boot setting in teh BIOS
which is for the Host OS.

Oh, ok. Never used Hyper-V etc.

snip

Another way is to download & create a LiveDVD/CD and boot off that but
it then is in Read only mode and does not write anything to your
physical disks

Yeah, I suggested that above and is something I have often left with
others (LiveDVD) both for them and me either to play with on their
machines or to use as an emergency repair tool.

Yes, like Hirens Boot CD or Darik's Boot 'n' Nuke!

Well, I have left those with people as well, but even a straight Live
LinuxDVD/USB can be of good use at times.

snip

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 22:32:04 +0100, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
wrote:

No but I've apparently turned the screen upside down or sideways before, but
as I cannot see it its only seen by an unblind person. grin.

Hehe.

Cheers, T i m

gareth evans wrote:
On 28/04/2021 15:08, John Rumm wrote:
On 28/04/2021 14:25, gareth evans wrote:
On 28/04/2021 13:52, jon wrote:
On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 12:45:57 +0100, gareth evans wrote:

This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
almost more so than the Amazon fiasco (qv).

I almost don't dare to touch the mouse pad lest the display all
disappears up into the top left corner with icons for each open
program.

This is * B L O O D Y * annoying.

Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted and
unnecessary
facility??????????????????????

What version of win10 are you using..


Whatever is foisted onto me by the unstoppable Windows updates.


Hold the windows key, hit R, type winver in the edit box, then click ok



Version 2004 Build 19041.928


Some of the visual settings can be seen here.

https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/...dows-10-a.html

And here is a picture of some of the panels.

https://i.postimg.cc/fyvQR2q7/win10-sticky-stuff.gif

Paul

Fredxx wrote:
On 28/04/2021 21:34, SH wrote:
On 28/04/2021 21:25, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 28 Apr 2021 21:00:44 +0100, gareth evans
wrote:

On 28/04/2021 16:02, #Paul wrote:
gareth evans wrote:
This W10 new desktop facility is really getting on my tits,
[...]
Surely there must be some way of disabling this unwanted
and unnecessary facility??????????????????????

Install linux? :-)

... well, somebody had to suggest it...

I'd already said in another life that I'm getting more and
more ****ed-off with Microsoft that the next PC I go for will
be Linuxy

Before you commit in any way you can run Linux on your existing PC
from a DVD or USB drive and start to get a feel for it?

Whilst I have a few Linux only machines, I also have it dual boot
(with Windows) on some and on a couple on external / USB drive. If you
stick it on a 64G SSD in a USB3 external enclosure and in a USB3 port
on a PC / laptop it runs pretty quickly. Once finished you unplug it,
reboot and your PC is back as it was. ;-)

It is a good idea to have such a solution handy in any case, Linux
Mint is pretty good and user friendly.

https://linuxmint.com/

Cheers, T i m


Or you could download the linux ISOs and load them into Hyper V (as
local installation source) which is part of Windows so you can try
Linux from within the Windows 10 desktop?

You do have to turn off Secure Boot setting or Linux won't load within
Hyper-V

You can then delete the VM if you don't like that flavour of Linux or
if you do, ytou can thengo the whole hog and install linux on your
disk of choice and boot off that.

Another way is to download & create a LiveDVD/CD and boot off that but
it then is in Read only mode and does not write anything to your
physical disks

I've historically used VirtualBox. the Windows Sandbox doesn't provide
access to USB devices so that's a no-no for me.

Is Hyper V a good alternative to VirtualBox?

For Tim, VirtualBox does have some 'pre-installed' OSes.

Hyper-V requires EPT/SLAT on client PCs.
Hyper-V does not require EPT/SLAT on Windows server.

The difference is that the frame rate of gaming needs
some help, when Hyper-V is involved, and so EPT/SLAT
(Second Level Address Translation in hardware) is
a hardware requirement of the processor.

Hyper-V in Windows Features, won't install unless EPT/SLAT
is detected. EPT is the Intel name for it. SLAT is the AMD
name for it. I only have one PC in the house that can run
Hyper-V (today).

Microsoft pushed out a patch on Patch Tuesday, that
caused the frame rate of gaming setups to drop. Which...
naturally makes you suspicious of what they're up to
this week.

The problem is, Microsoft has decided they need "containerization"
for the OS. They use Hyper-V for WSL2, WSLg, VirtualBox 6 runs
under Hyper-V. Hyper-V will be used for various Defender features.
But, in order to widely deploy Hyper-V, they need to remove
the requirement for EPT/SLAT, without ****ing off gamers
who are running Windows 10. Now would a gamer be using
Windows 10 in the first place ? That, I don't know.

Paul

T i m wrote:
On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 08:54:06 +0100, SH wrote:


Thta has not been my experience. as long as teh test OS is within a VM,
I struggle to see how you can trash the Host OS?

Granted not a particularly common scenario but one that happened.

I built BIL a PC running Ubuntu as a sort of feasibility exercise and
had a Windows VM on there for his accounting app. After using it for
some time, he applied a big windows update, the virtual drive
allocation filled the remaining space on the host OS and it all ground
to a nasty halt. The VM got corrupted (as well) and he never recovered
the data from it.

If you trash within the
VM, thats OK as you can then delete the virtual machine and start again
with a new VM.

VirtualBox does handle some exception conditions with grace.
When a machine is booting up, if it runs out of RAM the
Guest will enter Pause state and wait for you to "fix it",
by freeing up some RAM. You can then "UnPause" and it
continues running.

But running out of storage, that's just not a best practice.
I keep around 100GB of slack on the VM storage partition.
in the hopes I never screw one into the ground like that.
It happens, but usually on throwaways that I'm running.
It doesn't usually happen on anything that matters.

I trust you know how to "compact" a VM.

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sys...nloads/sdelete

sdelete -z C: # On the Guest, from Command Prompt

Disk Management has a compact for VHD files. But I have my own
favorite way of doing that. I use Virtual PC, which has VHD as
the native format, and it has a Compact on it. The nice thing
about it, is it doesn't mess up any identifiers on the VHD.
I've had identifiers messed up before during compaction, so
I have to be careful what methods I use.

Windows 10 has CleanMgr.exe, and the system button will throw
up an entry for Windows.old, and you can remove Windows.old
after an Upgrade install. After the space is consolidated (JKDefrag),
you can do your sdelete run and zero out the white space on C: .
Then, the "compact" operation will shrink the VM down.

My Win10 VMs with dynamic VHD storage, at the moment.

W20H2.vhd 13,830,032,384 bytes

W10-1903.vhd 23,405,868,032 bytes

Just to give some idea of the size range I run.
I'm not compacting these every day, but they
do get a bit of fluffing now and then, to
free up a bit of disk space.

Paul

On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 08:06:58 -0400, Paul
wrote:

snip

I built BIL a PC running Ubuntu as a sort of feasibility exercise and
had a Windows VM on there for his accounting app. After using it for
some time, he applied a big windows update, the virtual drive
allocation filled the remaining space on the host OS and it all ground
to a nasty halt. The VM got corrupted (as well) and he never recovered
the data from it.

If you trash within the
VM, thats OK as you can then delete the virtual machine and start again
with a new VM.

VirtualBox does handle some exception conditions with grace.

I'm sure it does. ;-)

When a machine is booting up, if it runs out of RAM the
Guest will enter Pause state and wait for you to "fix it",
by freeing up some RAM. You can then "UnPause" and it
continues running.

Ok.

But running out of storage, that's just not a best practice.

Quite. Unfortunately this was an 'experimental' instaklation that was
remote to be and ended up getting used for longer than we first
envisaged. There were possibly 'Running out of space' warnings but the
user non-technical ... and once committed to the update ...

I keep around 100GB of slack on the VM storage partition.

Ah, but that involves 'looking' Paul. ;-)

in the hopes I never screw one into the ground like that.
It happens, but usually on throwaways that I'm running.
It doesn't usually happen on anything that matters.

I trust you know how to "compact" a VM.

No, never had it come up (myself).

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/sys...nloads/sdelete

sdelete -z C: # On the Guest, from Command Prompt

So is this just removing any whitespace in a dynamic drive?

Disk Management has a compact for VHD files.

See above.

But I have my own
favorite way of doing that. I use Virtual PC, which has VHD as
the native format, and it has a Compact on it. The nice thing
about it, is it doesn't mess up any identifiers on the VHD.
I've had identifiers messed up before during compaction, so
I have to be careful what methods I use.

As mentioned, I have found VM's to be sufficiently 'tender' at times
so that now I'd rather swap out a complete drive than bother with
them.

Windows 10 has CleanMgr.exe, and the system button will throw
up an entry for Windows.old, and you can remove Windows.old
after an Upgrade install.

Yeah, I often do that on any system that's tight for disk space I'm
working on for someone.

After the space is consolidated (JKDefrag),
you can do your sdelete run and zero out the white space on C: .
Then, the "compact" operation will shrink the VM down.

Ok.

My Win10 VMs with dynamic VHD storage, at the moment.

W20H2.vhd 13,830,032,384 bytes

W10-1903.vhd 23,405,868,032 bytes

Just to give some idea of the size range I run.
I'm not compacting these every day, but they
do get a bit of fluffing now and then, to
free up a bit of disk space.

This Mac Mini with a 160GB HDD has 60GB for OSX and 100 for XP and
currently has checks 338MB free. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On 29/04/2021 09:28, SH wrote:
On 29/04/2021 09:03, Pancho wrote:
On 29/04/2021 08:46, SH wrote:
I've historically used VirtualBox. the Windows Sandbox doesn't
provide access to USB devices so that's a no-no for me.

Is Hyper V a good alternative to VirtualBox?

I've never used virtualbox so can't comment on it.


Virtual Box is good, the main difference for me was that you couldn't
start Virtual Box VMs automatically when the PC booted (well not
easily). Where as with Hyper-V you could.

Nowadays I mainly use WSL2 and docker, but that doesn't have a gui
interface so no good for testing the Linux desktop.



Pssst... There is WSLg available for beta testers and and Windows
Preview subscribers...... so you can run Linux GUI applications


https://devblogs.microsoft.com/comma...m-for-linux-2/


Interesting, but I'm not that fussed really. I like WSL2, it gets around
the previous fuss of running Hyper-V or VisualBox, I just don't have to
think about it. It's just kind of there when I want it.

I'm not really bothered about a Linux GUI at the moment, I can work on
Win10 and develop for Linux without needing a Linux Gui.

T i m wrote:
On Thu, 29 Apr 2021 08:06:58 -0400, Paul

My Win10 VMs with dynamic VHD storage, at the moment.

W20H2.vhd 13,830,032,384 bytes

W10-1903.vhd 23,405,868,032 bytes

Just to give some idea of the size range I run.
I'm not compacting these every day, but they
do get a bit of fluffing now and then, to
free up a bit of disk space.

This Mac Mini with a 160GB HDD has 60GB for OSX and 100 for XP and
currently has checks 338MB free. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

You'll have to do your compaction on another machine
then. I sometimes move the VM files around the LAN
here, where there's more storage. To do compaction,
even when a compaction tool says "overwrite initial file",
it still needs double the space.

Like, to compact the 13GB file, it needs 13GB for the
original file, 13GB for the output file, then the original
can be deleted at some point in time. You need at least
as much slack as the file currently uses, to do compaction.

Some of the tools for this, use that sort of pessimistic
estimate. They know the compacted file cannot be any
bigger than 13GB, so they insist 13GB of slack be
present, before they start. Even if the output file
happened to end up at 10GB in size.

It is probably possible for a compaction tool to do
real live honest-to-goodness compaction-in-place,
but if the operation fails, you're screwed. This
is why a separate file handle is used for the output.
It's in case the power goes off or something
similarly naughty.

Anyway, there is a maintenance procedure, and
I've saved 200GB of wasted space on the VM partition,
just by house cleaning in this way. You can zero out
white space on both Windows and Linux, and both kinds
of machines benefit from compaction. (Compaction is
Guest OS agnostic. What counts, is zeroing out some
storage to make it happen, or make it possible. It
costs nothing to store zeros, using VM disk containers.)

Paul