On 24/12/2020 22:50, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Fred brought next idea :
The vaccine does not stop the spread,

That isnt known yet.

Not for certain, but there have been several suggestions that it doesn't.

Once most have had the vaccine, only those who have refused it will
suffer.

Not those who avoid getting infected and that isnt hard to do.

Obviously it is, with so many becoming infected and it spreading so very
rapidly.

In my village and the neighbouring ones, no one has. According to my doctor.

Its quite low density housing, even in the village. There are almost no
semi detached houses and only a few old labourers terraces.

Only cases I have heard of personally were in London where my nephew
said several friends of his wifes' parents had died of it.

The local hospital last spring when I was in A & E said they had several
hundred patients in an isolation ward. That's west suffolk with a
population of 200,000 give or take.

So one in a thousand in hospital at any given time is enough to start
pushing the resources a bit.

I think that about 50,000 have died in 50 million, so that's one in a
thousand deaths as well.

When you look at those figures it becomes clear that actually very few
people have caught it, and very few people have caught it badly enough
to need hospitalisation, but that it takes very few more to actually
overload a hospital.

Even 0.1% of people getting sick is a lot.

What is clear is that our village and surrounds with about 20,000 people
is by virtue of being well - er - ' spaced out' and law abiding much
lower than average in its sick rate.

So the towns must be much higher.




--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

On 25/12/2020 00:12, Fred wrote:


"Harry Bloomfield"; "Esq." wrote in message
...
Fred brought next idea :
The vaccine does not stop the spread,

That isnt known yet.

Not for certain, but there have been several suggestions that it doesn't.

Not supported by hard phase 3 trial data tho.

And that will be known soon now that lots are being vaccinated
in areas where the virus is rampant like the UK and USA,

Once most have had the vaccine, only those who have refused it will
suffer.

Not those who avoid getting infected and that isnt hard to do.

Obviously it is, with so many becoming infected and it spreading so
very rapidly.

They just choose not to do what is trivial to avoid getting infected.

Sometimes its not so trivial. For some people.

--
"Strange as it seems, no amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
higher education positively fortifies it."

- Stephen Vizinczey

On 25/12/2020 09:08, ARW wrote:
On 24/12/2020 19:44, Andrew wrote:
On 24/12/2020 15:31, ARW wrote:
Happy Christmas to everyone.


except the bloke who put a nail in coke bottle top
under your tyre !

He came back last night and slashed it.


not slashed on it then?


--
There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do
that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon
emissions and more adverse environmental impact by adding intermittent
renewable energy.

On 25/12/2020 09:01, PeterC wrote:
On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 19:49:25 +0000, Andrew wrote:

On 24/12/2020 19:35, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Fred submitted this idea :
That's never going to happen.

I have little sympathy with those who refuse to have it, then suffer
the consequences.

But some cant be vaccinated for medical reasons.

All it needs, is enough vaccinated.

So why are they starting with the ones who should be last
in thr queue ?. Its the 11 to 40 yo's who are spreading it
so vaccinate them before anyone else.

Vaccinating 80+ in care and nursing homes is a waste as they're going to die
quite soon. Should be all those in any form of clinical role and the
emergency services, all pupils and teachers at all levels and families with
children, jobs etc.
The sick/subnormal/wrinklies (retired) last (I'm in the last category
there).
The family next door, for instance, has far more value the society and the
country than all the denizens of all the various homes and hospices put
together, with two young, bright children and jobs that are important.
Oh, politicians should be last, just to give us some hope of a good outcome.

Oh. What is so special about those children then?

On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 22:50:01 GMT, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Not those who avoid getting infected and that isnt hard to do.

Obviously it is,

For some, those that don't follow the rules. Like visiting
"attractions", "beauty spots" etc, to the point that the authrorities
have to close them due the sheer number of people there regardless of
anything to do with the virus. Not doubt these same people, are still
going out socialising be that in public (cafes, restraunts, pubs etc,
when open) or now "underground" in private homes.

We and all but about half a dozen of the local population of 2,000
ish seem to have avoided it for the last 10 months or so.

... with so many becoming infected and it spreading so very rapidly.

The numbers look big but what was the last ONS estimate, 1:85 had the
virus? Which means, on average, you need to encounter 85 people and
each of them for a good number of minutes in some form of enclosed
enviroment without paying much attention to mainly mask and space (*)
to be really at risk of picking up a large enough viral dose to
develop the disease. Note on average, you could be "unlucky" and have
some unmasked and infected person cough/sneeze and you pass through
the plume, though your mask will help.

It's extremely easy to physically avoid people.

(*) And hands, if any object is passed, even indirectly, between
people.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 25/12/2020 11:28, Owain Lastname wrote:
On Friday, 25 December 2020 at 09:08:39 UTC, ARW wrote:
He came back last night and slashed it.

Hopefully you've upgraded the CCTV by now.

Owain


The van was in a different place.

--
Adam

On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 15:31:23 +0000, ARW
wrote:

Happy Christmas to everyone.

True. And health. And happiness all round.

Cheers,

Nick

On Fri, 25 Dec 2020 12:23:20 +0000, Nick Odell
wrote:

On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 15:31:23 +0000, ARW
wrote:

Happy Christmas to everyone.

True. And health. And happiness all round.

Cheers,

Nick

AOL

Avpx



--
'The gods,' he said. 'Imprisoned in a thought. And perhaps they were
never more than a dream.'
(Sourcery)
12:25:01 up 6 days, 42 min, 10 users, load average: 11.36, 10.79, 10.27

On Fri, 25 Dec 2020 20:57:09 +1100, Fred wrote:

Vaccinating 80+ in care and nursing homesis a waste as they're
going to
die quite soon.

That's bull****

80+ is a "good age", they might have another 10 years, if they are
(un?) lucky.

... and it's a very unpleasant way to die ...

Doesn't have to be but this country has the attitude that people must
be kept alive for as long as medical science can regardless of the
cost to the patients quality of "life" or how much money has to be
spent in the process.

... and involves lots of medical resources as well.

Only if you insist that people are treated. A lot of elderly are of
the view that they've had their innings, they are going to die sooner
rather than later and they'd much rather spend the end of their life
being visited by, or visiting, their kids, grankids, great grankids
etc than being locked away in virtual solitary confinement in their
own home or care home. The icing on the cake is when the end comes,
be that from the virus or other cause, they can't have their loved
ones present.

If one still has ones marbles one can refuse treatment but you can't
ask for your life to be ended, even when the chances of survival are
minimal.

My mum had a stroke, with no warning signs. It didn't quite kill her
but the only muscles she could voluntarly move slightly were a couple
of fingers of her left hand and the corner of her mouth and eyes. You
could talk to her and you could tell from her eyes and extrememly
limited movement that her mind still functioning very well. That mind
was trapped in a body that was in effect of no use. After a week of
no signs of any improvement we told the doctors to DNR. "Do Not
Rescusitate", she passed quietly in her sleep a couple of days later.
Medical science and an awful lot of care could not doubt have kept
the body and mind alive but what sort of "life"?

Should be all those in any form of clinical role and the emergency

services, all pupils and teachers at all levels and families with
children, jobs etc.

That's wrong too until the vaccination is known to prevent infection.

Er, the testing shows quite clearly that the approved vaccinations do
prevent infection. Do you mean transmission?

The sick/subnormal/wrinklies (retired) last

That's mad too given that we do know that the current vaccines do
prevent severe disease if you get infected.

(I'm in the last category there).

Irrelevant.

No it's not. It showing that he considers that, for society as whole,
it would be better to vaccinate other categories before himself.

The family next door, for instance, has far more value the society
and
the country than all the denizens of all the various homes and
hospices
put together, with two young, bright children and jobs that are
important.

Stupid consideration until its known that the vaccine prevents infection
and there is a shortage of vaccine.

Again infection or transmission?

Oh, politicians should be last, just to give us some hope of a
good
outcome.

Even sillier.

Given that most politicians are not in a high risk group if they do
become infected in my view they are no different to any other person
in the country. Key workers, like bin men, come above them.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 25/12/2020 12:34, Dave Liquorice wrote:
Given that most politicians are not in a high risk group if they do
become infected in my view they are no different to any other person
in the country. Key workers, like bin men, come above them.

Oh yes. We could do without politicians, but imagine a life without
sanitary engineers and bin men!



--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
...I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

On 24/12/2020 15:31, ARW wrote:

Happy Christmas to everyone.

Yup, same from me!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 25/12/2020 13:29, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/12/2020 15:31, ARW wrote:

Happy Christmas to everyone.

Yup, same from me!



A very merry Turkey and Brussels Sprouts to all !

On Fri, 25 Dec 2020 13:29:00 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

On 24/12/2020 15:31, ARW wrote:

Happy Christmas to everyone.

Yup, same from me!

AOL

+1

etc.

Avpx
--
"Art thou a witch, *viva espana*?"
The Spanish Inquisition (Tadfield version) in action
(Terry Pratchett & Neil Gaiman, Good Omens)
13:50:01 up 6 days, 2:07, 10 users, load average: 12.89, 13.07, 12.93

On 25/12/2020 12:55, Tim Streater wrote:
On 25 Dec 2020 at 12:42:24 GMT, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 25/12/2020 12:34, Dave Liquorice wrote:
Given that most politicians are not in a high risk group if they do
become infected in my view they are no different to any other person
in the country. Key workers, like bin men, come above them.

Oh yes. We could do without politicians, but imagine a life without
sanitary engineers and bin men!

Trouble is if you do away with the former, you'll soon lack the latter.

Many people believe that. And yet its really not true. Political
strategic design making has little to do with the day to day tactical
management of the public sector

I think Belgium had no government for a year,.



Question to ask any anarchist is "Where will you get your loo paper once
anarchy arrrives?" or "What will you do when your loo backs up because the
sewage system has no power?"

Tell me. After the second isle of wight festival which turned the
thicket beside which we had camped into a turd and toilet paper
wasteland with every tree cut down for firewood, my most vivid memory
was on the isle of wight ferry where we all sat down on REAL TOILETS and
shat our little hearts out. And I got home to me mums and slept for 23
hours in a REAL BED.

It was around then I realised that the hippy dreams were in fact that.
Dreams. I was an *intelligent* hippy. Flower power was all very well but
someone had to grow them and that meant weeding, and manure.


--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

On Friday, 25 December 2020 at 09:01:42 UTC, PeterC wrote:
On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 19:49:25 +0000, Andrew wrote:

On 24/12/2020 19:35, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Fred submitted this idea :
That's never going to happen.

I have little sympathy with those who refuse to have it, then suffer
the consequences.

But some cant be vaccinated for medical reasons.

All it needs, is enough vaccinated.

So why are they starting with the ones who should be last
in thr queue ?. Its the 11 to 40 yo's who are spreading it
so vaccinate them before anyone else.
Vaccinating 80+ in care and nursing homes is a waste as they're going to die
quite soon. Should be all those in any form of clinical role and the
emergency services, all pupils and teachers at all levels and families with
children, jobs etc.
The sick/subnormal/wrinklies (retired) last (I'm in the last category
there).
The family next door, for instance, has far more value the society and the
country than all the denizens of all the various homes and hospices put
together, with two young, bright children and jobs that are important.
Oh, politicians should be last, just to give us some hope of a good outcome.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway
Keeping the wrinkliest alive but quiet is what ensures the cash flow to the nursing homes so they stay open and provide a place for families to dump their elderly relatives. Cynical? Moi?

On Thursday, 24 December 2020 at 15:31:27 UTC, ARW wrote:
Happy Christmas to everyone.

--
Adam
Merry Christmas Adam

On 25/12/2020 10:42, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Only cases I have heard of personally were in London where my nephew
said several friends of his wifes' parents had died of it.


Wife's parents - it's that generation that are dying.

I'm in London, and the number of cases has spiked recently. What hasn't
spiked is the number of deaths. That's partly because of the time lag of
about a month between getting infected and dying. However, it may well
be because the most susceptible people have already been 'harvested'
(what a horrible term!) by the disease.

Amongst the people we know, a nearby neighbour died in March, and 3
other people were hospitalised but recovered. Since then, despite the
ONS saying that 2% of Londoners currently have the disease, I know of
nobody seriously ill, let alone on death's door.

Most people on this NG are in the wife's parents generation. If you are
in an area that has previously been hard hit by the disease, I'm
reasonably optimistic for you.

NB: I've been horribly wrong in the past!

GB wrote:

Wife's parents - it's that generation that are dying.

Only death I know of is a colleague of the parter of a colleague, a
youngish teacher

I'm in London, and the number of cases has spiked recently. What hasn't
spiked is the number of deaths. That's partly because of the time lag of
about a month between getting infected and dying. However, it may well
be because the most susceptible people have already been 'harvested'
(what a horrible term!) by the disease.

dry timber I've heard it called

Amongst the people we know, a nearby neighbour died in March, and 3
other people were hospitalised but recovered. Since then, despite the
ONS saying that 2% of Londoners currently have the disease, I know of
nobody seriously ill, let alone on death's door.

of all the 10,000 lorry drivers given tests in Dover, only 24 found
positive, AIUI those will be lateral flow tests which have up to 50%
false negative, so call it 50 positive, that's still only 0.5%

On 25/12/2020 16:57, Andy Burns wrote:
GB wrote:

Wife's parents - it's that generation that are dying.

Only death I know of is a colleague of the parter of a colleague, a
youngish teacher

I'm in London, and the number of cases has spiked recently. What
hasn't spiked is the number of deaths. That's partly because of the
time lag of about a month between getting infected and dying. However,
it may well be because the most susceptible people have already been
'harvested' (what a horrible term!) by the disease.

dry timber I've heard it called

Amongst the people we know, a nearby neighbour died in March, and 3
other people were hospitalised but recovered. Since then, despite the
ONS saying that 2% of Londoners currently have the disease, I know of
nobody seriously ill, let alone on death's door.

of all the 10,000 lorry drivers given tests in Dover, only 24 found
positive, AIUI those will be lateral flow tests which have up to 50%
false negative, so call it 50 positive, that's still only 0.5%



The ONS reckon that 2% of Londoners are positive.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
idual.net...
On Fri, 25 Dec 2020 20:57:09 +1100, Fred wrote:

Vaccinating 80+ in care and nursing homesis
a waste as they're going to die quite soon.

That's bull****

80+ is a "good age", they might have
another 10 years, if they are (un?) lucky.

It is in fact the average.

... and it's a very unpleasant way to die ...

Doesn't have to be

Yes it does.

but this country has the attitude that people must
be kept alive for as long as medical science can
regardless of the cost to the patients quality of "life"
or how much money has to be spent in the process.

It's still a very unpleasant way to die
if they do nothing and just let you die.

... and involves lots of medical resources as well.

Only if you insist that people are treated.

Yes, you can certainly do what the chinese did,
just let you die and weld your door shut so you can't
infect others before you die, only those in your flat.

A lot of elderly are of the view that they've had
their innings, they are going to die sooner rather
than later and they'd much rather spend the end
of their life being visited by, or visiting, their kids,
grankids, great grankids etc

But that cant happen when you have the virus.
And it makes a lot of sense to vaccinate those
so they can continue to communicate with those
you listed before they die.

than being locked away in virtual solitary
confinement in their own home or care home.

It isnt that with modern communications.

The icing on the cake is when the end comes,
be that from the virus or other cause, they
can't have their loved ones present.

They don't need to if they have been vaccinated
and the virus doesn't kill them.

If one still has ones marbles one can refuse
treatment but you can't ask for your life to
be ended, even when the chances of survival are
minimal.

The chances of survival are excellent if you
are vaccinated and the side effects of the
vaccination are much less than even just
being isolated and left to die.

My mum had a stroke, with no warning signs.
It didn't quite kill her but the only muscles she
could voluntarly move slightly were a couple
of fingers of her left hand and the corner of
her mouth and eyes.

And that wouldn't happen with a vaccinated older person
with this virus even if they do get infected by the virus.

You could talk to her and you could tell from her eyes and extrememly
limited movement that her mind still functioning very well. That mind
was trapped in a body that was in effect of no use. After a week of
no signs of any improvement we told the doctors to DNR. "Do Not
Rescusitate", she passed quietly in her sleep a couple of days later.
Medical science and an awful lot of care could not doubt have kept
the body and mind alive but what sort of "life"?

And that wouldn't happen with a vaccinated older person
with this virus even if they do get infected by the virus.

Should be all those in any form of clinical role and the emergency

services, all pupils and teachers at all levels and families with
children, jobs etc.

That's wrong too until the vaccination is known to prevent infection.

Er, the testing shows quite clearly that the
approved vaccinations do prevent infection.

No it does not. ALL it shows is that they
don't get severe disease if infected.

Do you mean transmission?

Same thing in this case.

The sick/subnormal/wrinklies (retired) last

That's mad too given that we do know that the current vaccines do
prevent severe disease if you get infected.

(I'm in the last category there).

Irrelevant.

No it's not. It showing that he considers that, for society as whole,
it would be better to vaccinate other categories before himself.

That bit about his own personal circumstances doesn't.

The family next door, for instance, has far more
value the society and the country than all the
denizens of all the various homes and hospices
put together, with two young, bright children
and jobs that are important.

Stupid consideration until its known that the vaccine prevents infection
and there is a shortage of vaccine.

Again infection or transmission?

See above.

Oh, politicians should be last, just to
give us some hope of a good outcome.

Even sillier.

Given that most politicians are not in a high
risk group if they do become infected in my
view they are no different to any other person
in the country.

But he wants them to be treated differently.

Key workers, like bin men, come above them.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 25/12/2020 12:55, Tim Streater wrote:
On 25 Dec 2020 at 12:42:24 GMT, The Natural Philosopher

wrote:

On 25/12/2020 12:34, Dave Liquorice wrote:
Given that most politicians are not in a high risk group if they do
become infected in my view they are no different to any other person
in the country. Key workers, like bin men, come above them.

Oh yes. We could do without politicians, but imagine a life without
sanitary engineers and bin men!

Trouble is if you do away with the former, you'll soon lack the latter.

Many people believe that. And yet its really not true. Political strategic
design making has little to do with the day to day tactical management of
the public sector

I think Belgium had no government for a year,.

But they didnt have no pollys for a year,
and got a lousy result with the virus.



Question to ask any anarchist is "Where will you get your loo paper once
anarchy arrrives?" or "What will you do when your loo backs up because
the
sewage system has no power?"

Tell me. After the second isle of wight festival which turned the thicket
beside which we had camped into a turd and toilet paper wasteland with
every tree cut down for firewood, my most vivid memory was on the isle of
wight ferry where we all sat down on REAL TOILETS and shat our little
hearts out. And I got home to me mums and slept for 23 hours in a REAL
BED.

It was around then I realised that the hippy dreams were in fact that.
Dreams. I was an *intelligent* hippy. Flower power was all very well but
someone had to grow them and that meant weeding, and manure.


--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

On 25/12/2020 17:38, GB wrote:
On 25/12/2020 16:57, Andy Burns wrote:
GB wrote:

Wife's parents - it's that generation that are dying.

Only death I know of is a colleague of the parter of a colleague, a
youngish teacher

I'm in London, and the number of cases has spiked recently. What
hasn't spiked is the number of deaths. That's partly because of the
time lag of about a month between getting infected and dying.
However, it may well be because the most susceptible people have
already been 'harvested' (what a horrible term!) by the disease.

dry timber I've heard it called

Amongst the people we know, a nearby neighbour died in March, and 3
other people were hospitalised but recovered. Since then, despite the
ONS saying that 2% of Londoners currently have the disease, I know of
nobody seriously ill, let alone on death's door.

of all the 10,000 lorry drivers given tests in Dover, only 24 found
positive, AIUI those will be lateral flow tests which have up to 50%
false negative, so call it 50 positive, that's still only 0.5%



The ONS reckon that 2% of Londoners are positive.


What percentage of Londoners are total and complete ****s?

In article ,
PeterC wrote:
Vaccinating 80+ in care and nursing homes is a waste as they're going to die
quite soon.

Can't you just tell you are not 80+ and live in a care home...

--
*If horrific means to make horrible, does terrific mean to make terrible?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 24/12/2020 21:17, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The 11 to 40's don't generally suffer so much, but do spread it to the
most vulnerable

So you break the SPREAD by vaccinating the ones doing the spreading,
not the static, house-bound group who are 100% dependent on the
taxes that the spreaders are (or soon will be) providing !!

On 25/12/2020 10:42, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/12/2020 00:12, Fred wrote:


"Harry Bloomfield"; "Esq." wrote in message
...
Fred brought next idea :
The vaccine does not stop the spread,

That isnt known yet.

Not for certain, but there have been several suggestions that it
doesn't.

Not supported by hard phase 3 trial data tho.

And that will be known soon now that lots are being vaccinated
in areas where the virus is rampant like the UK and USA,

Once most have had the vaccine, only those who have refused it will
suffer.

Not those who avoid getting infected and that isnt hard to do.

Obviously it is, with so many becoming infected and it spreading so
very rapidly.

They just choose not to do what is trivial to avoid getting infected.

Sometimes its not so trivial. For some people.


Only 2000 people have died from Covid where there was no existing
co-morbidity.

On 25/12/2020 09:01, PeterC wrote:
On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 19:49:25 +0000, Andrew wrote:

On 24/12/2020 19:35, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Fred submitted this idea :
That's never going to happen.

I have little sympathy with those who refuse to have it, then suffer
the consequences.

But some cant be vaccinated for medical reasons.

All it needs, is enough vaccinated.

So why are they starting with the ones who should be last
in thr queue ?. Its the 11 to 40 yo's who are spreading it
so vaccinate them before anyone else.

Vaccinating 80+ in care and nursing homes is a waste as they're going to die
quite soon. Should be all those in any form of clinical role and the
emergency services, all pupils and teachers at all levels and families with
children, jobs etc.
The sick/subnormal/wrinklies (retired) last (I'm in the last category
there).
The family next door, for instance, has far more value the society and the
country than all the denizens of all the various homes and hospices put
together, with two young, bright children and jobs that are important.
Oh, politicians should be last, just to give us some hope of a good outcome.


+10000

On 25/12/2020 09:57, Fred wrote:


"PeterC" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 19:49:25 +0000, Andrew wrote:

On 24/12/2020 19:35, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Fred submitted this idea :
That's never going to happen.

I have little sympathy with those who refuse to have it, then suffer
the consequences.

But some cant be vaccinated for medical reasons.

All it needs, is enough vaccinated.

So why are they starting with the ones who should be last
in thr queue ?. Its the 11 to 40 yo's who are spreading it
so vaccinate them before anyone else.

Vaccinating 80+ in care and nursing homes
is a waste as they're going to die quite soon.

That's bull**** and it's a very unpleasant way to
die and involves lots of medical resources as well.

Since no-one has come back from the dead, how do you know ?.
How does it differ from dying from pneumonia which is the
usual most common form of death at that age ?.

Anyone going into a care home is simply NEVER going to leave,
They aren't going on a bloody cruise.

The only people who want these people kept alive as though they
were the pope, are the care home owners who are potentially seeing
their business model going up in flames ?.

On 25/12/2020 15:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/12/2020 12:55, Tim Streater wrote:
On 25 Dec 2020 at 12:42:24 GMT, The Natural Philosopher

wrote:

On 25/12/2020 12:34, Dave Liquorice wrote:
Â* Given that most politicians are not in a high risk group if they do
Â* become infected in my view they are no different to any other person
Â* in the country. Key workers, like bin men, come above them.

Oh yes. We could do without politicians, but imagine a life without
sanitary engineers and bin men!

Trouble is if you do away with the former, you'll soon lack the latter.

Many people believe that. And yet its really not true. Political
strategic designÂ* making has little to do with the day to day tactical
management of the public sector

I think Belgium had no government for a year,.


It still had local government though, which are the people who
keep local services going.

We manage without a 'government' for 6 months of every year. That is
how long they seem to spend on holiday. The country doesn't come to a
halt.

On 25/12/2020 16:18, John J wrote:
On Friday, 25 December 2020 at 09:01:42 UTC, PeterC wrote:
On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 19:49:25 +0000, Andrew wrote:

On 24/12/2020 19:35, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Fred submitted this idea :
That's never going to happen.

I have little sympathy with those who refuse to have it, then suffer
the consequences.

But some cant be vaccinated for medical reasons.

All it needs, is enough vaccinated.

So why are they starting with the ones who should be last
in thr queue ?. Its the 11 to 40 yo's who are spreading it
so vaccinate them before anyone else.
Vaccinating 80+ in care and nursing homes is a waste as they're going to die
quite soon. Should be all those in any form of clinical role and the
emergency services, all pupils and teachers at all levels and families with
children, jobs etc.
The sick/subnormal/wrinklies (retired) last (I'm in the last category
there).
The family next door, for instance, has far more value the society and the
country than all the denizens of all the various homes and hospices put
together, with two young, bright children and jobs that are important.
Oh, politicians should be last, just to give us some hope of a good outcome.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway
Keeping the wrinkliest alive but quiet is what ensures the cash flow to the nursing homes so they stay open and provide a place for families to dump their elderly relatives. Cynical? Moi?


Spot on in many cases, but remember in places like Labour controlled
Birmingham, there are 46,000 people 'in care'. Here the most important
people are the small army of care home employees whose jobs would be at
risk if only a third of that 46,000 died 'early' and a third of care
comes could be closed.

On 26/12/2020 13:54, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
PeterC wrote:
Vaccinating 80+ in care and nursing homes is a waste as they're going to die
quite soon.

Can't you just tell you are not 80+ and live in a care home...


Why would any one 80+ living in a glorified prison where the
heating is set to 26C all year round, actually want to
survive ?. Survive longer what precisely what ?. Even TV is
**** these days.

On 25/12/2020 11:58, ARW wrote:
On 25/12/2020 11:28, Owain Lastname wrote:
On Friday, 25 December 2020 at 09:08:39 UTC, ARW wrote:
He came back last night and slashed it.

Hopefully you've upgraded the CCTV by now.

Owain


The van was in a different place.


Your van, or your employers though ?.

On 25/12/2020 09:01, PeterC wrote:
On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 19:49:25 +0000, Andrew wrote:

On 24/12/2020 19:35, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Fred submitted this idea :
That's never going to happen.

I have little sympathy with those who refuse to have it, then suffer
the consequences.

But some cant be vaccinated for medical reasons.

All it needs, is enough vaccinated.

So why are they starting with the ones who should be last
in thr queue ?. Its the 11 to 40 yo's who are spreading it
so vaccinate them before anyone else.

Vaccinating 80+ in care and nursing homes is a waste as they're going to die
quite soon. Should be all those in any form of clinical role and the
emergency services, all pupils and teachers at all levels and families with
children, jobs etc.
The sick/subnormal/wrinklies (retired) last (I'm in the last category
there).
The family next door, for instance, has far more value the society and the
country than all the denizens of all the various homes and hospices put
together, with two young, bright children and jobs that are important.
Oh, politicians should be last, just to give us some hope of a good outcome.


It would help if you shared your cost-benefit /calculation/.

The usual methodology for assessing such things (the quality of life
adjusted years saved by vaccination of a person, P) would, I suggest,
take into account not just P's life expectancy but 2 things you have not
mentioned:

(a) the probability of P becoming infected; and

(b) the probability of P dying or suffering decreased quality of life as
a result.

Adding those factors seems to me /qualitatively/ to back the decision to
start with the over 80s (even those in care homes where the average life
expectancy is c. 2 years) as both (a) and (b) have been rather high.
And quantitatively we know eg that deaths in E&W with Covid-19 on death
certificate in 4 weeks to 11/12

age 19 and under 4
age 80+ 6,860

Plus you'd need 4 times as many doses to do the youngsters than the 80+
population.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 25/12/2020 09:08, ARW wrote:
On 24/12/2020 19:44, Andrew wrote:
On 24/12/2020 15:31, ARW wrote:
Happy Christmas to everyone.


except the bloke who put a nail in coke bottle top
under your tyre !

He came back last night and slashed it.


? Lassoo his sky disk and 'adjust' the azimuth :-)

In article ,
Andrew wrote:
On 24/12/2020 21:17, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The 11 to 40's don't generally suffer so much, but do spread it to the
most vulnerable

So you break the SPREAD by vaccinating the ones doing the spreading,
not the static, house-bound group who are 100% dependent on the
taxes that the spreaders are (or soon will be) providing !!

The "housebound" ones would like to go out and have as near a normal life
as possible, just like everybody else.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 26/12/2020 15:03, charles wrote:
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
On 24/12/2020 21:17, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The 11 to 40's don't generally suffer so much, but do spread it to the
most vulnerable

So you break the SPREAD by vaccinating the ones doing the spreading,
not the static, house-bound group who are 100% dependent on the
taxes that the spreaders are (or soon will be) providing !!

The "housebound" ones would like to go out and have as near a normal life
as possible, just like everybody else.


How often do people in care homes 'go out and have a normal life' ?.

No-one was stopping you. Wear a mask and avoid crowds or groups
of people. All you have to fear is fear itself, surely ?.

On 26/12/2020 16:39, Tim Streater wrote:
On 26 Dec 2020 at 14:53:42 GMT, Andrew
wrote:

On 25/12/2020 15:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/12/2020 12:55, Tim Streater wrote:
On 25 Dec 2020 at 12:42:24 GMT, The Natural Philosopher

wrote:

On 25/12/2020 12:34, Dave Liquorice wrote:
Â* Given that most politicians are not in a high risk group if they do
Â* become infected in my view they are no different to any other person
Â* in the country. Key workers, like bin men, come above them.

Oh yes. We could do without politicians, but imagine a life without
sanitary engineers and bin men!

Trouble is if you do away with the former, you'll soon lack the latter.

Many people believe that. And yet its really not true. Political
strategic designÂ* making has little to do with the day to day tactical
management of the public sector

I think Belgium had no government for a year,.


It still had local government though, which are the people who
keep local services going.

We manage without a 'government' for 6 months of every year. That is
how long they seem to spend on holiday. The country doesn't come to a
halt.

You mean that all civil servants, local govt officials and officers,
councillors, etc, all go away for 6 months at a time? Kolossal!


No, MP's are away for half the year. The others might be present for
11 months of the year but do they actually do 11 months of work ?.
Councillors are generally part time/expenses anyway.]

On 26/12/2020 14:40, Andrew wrote:
On 24/12/2020 21:17, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The 11 to 40's don't generally suffer so much, but do spread it to the
most vulnerable

So you break the SPREAD by vaccinating the ones doing the spreading,
not the static, house-bound group who are 100% dependent on the
taxes that the spreaders are (or soon will be) providing !!

and what about the majority of people in residential care in the UK who
are not "100% dependent on the taxes..."?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

In article ,
Andrew wrote:
On 26/12/2020 15:03, charles wrote:
In article ,
Andrew wrote:
On 24/12/2020 21:17, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The 11 to 40's don't generally suffer so much, but do spread it to the
most vulnerable

So you break the SPREAD by vaccinating the ones doing the spreading,
not the static, house-bound group who are 100% dependent on the
taxes that the spreaders are (or soon will be) providing !!

The "housebound" ones would like to go out and have as near a normal
life as possible, just like everybody else.


How often do people in care homes 'go out and have a normal life' ?.

No-one was stopping you. Wear a mask and avoid crowds or groups
of people. All you have to fear is fear itself, surely ?.

In Tier 4, I can't go out.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 24/12/2020 21:17, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The 11 to 40's don't generally suffer so much, but do spread it to the
most vulnerable

So you break the SPREAD by vaccinating the ones doing the spreading,

We don't know that the current vaccines do that yet.

not the static, house-bound group who are 100% dependent on the taxes that
the spreaders are (or soon will be) providing !!

That's bull**** too. Plenty of them paid
for their own income past working.

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 25/12/2020 09:57, Fred wrote:


"PeterC" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 24 Dec 2020 19:49:25 +0000, Andrew wrote:

On 24/12/2020 19:35, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Fred submitted this idea :
That's never going to happen.

I have little sympathy with those who refuse to have it, then suffer
the consequences.

But some cant be vaccinated for medical reasons.

All it needs, is enough vaccinated.

So why are they starting with the ones who should be last
in thr queue ?. Its the 11 to 40 yo's who are spreading it
so vaccinate them before anyone else.

Vaccinating 80+ in care and nursing homes
is a waste as they're going to die quite soon.

That's bull**** and it's a very unpleasant way to
die and involves lots of medical resources as well.

Since no-one has come back from the dead, how do you know ?.

By observing them desperately trying to
breath before they get put on a ventilator.

How does it differ from dying from pneumonia which is the usual most
common form of death at that age ?.

Thats bull**** too.

Anyone going into a care home is simply NEVER going to leave,
They aren't going on a bloody cruise.

So we should just execute them eh ?

The only people who want these people kept alive as though they were the
pope, are the care home owners who are potentially seeing their business
model going up in flames ?.

Thats bull**** too.