I want to relocate my existing primary circuit heated hot water tank to
another location in my house which will require me to install a 'Y'-type
system with a motorised three way valve. I've searched the Internet, without
much success so far, to find a clear circuit diagram which will help me
complete the re-piping of the system.

Does anyone know of a good source of diagrams either on the internet or
elsewhere which will help me design my pipe circuits? I think I understand
what I need to do but seeing in a picture/diagram would be worth a thousand
words. I am especially puzzled or concerned to know if I need to fit some
kind of bypass system around the motorised valve for either maintenance or
summer running.

TIA for any help than anyone can give me

Darth

"Darth Ai" wrote in message
. uk...
I want to relocate my existing primary circuit heated hot water tank to
another location in my house which will require me to install a 'Y'-type
system with a motorised three way valve. I've searched the Internet,
without
much success so far, to find a clear circuit diagram which will help me
complete the re-piping of the system.

Does anyone know of a good source of diagrams either on the internet or
elsewhere which will help me design my pipe circuits? I think I understand
what I need to do but seeing in a picture/diagram would be worth a
thousand
words. I am especially puzzled or concerned to know if I need to fit some
kind of bypass system around the motorised valve for either maintenance or
summer running.

TIA for any help than anyone can give me

Darth

Fill us in more and we will talk you though a system.

"Darth Ai" wrote in
. uk:


Does anyone know of a good source of diagrams either on the internet
or elsewhere which will help me design my pipe circuits? I think I
understand what I need to do but seeing in a picture/diagram would be
worth a thousand words. I am especially puzzled or concerned to know
if I need to fit some kind of bypass system around the motorised valve
for either maintenance or summer running.




http://www.myson.ie/pdfs/dualchannel.pdf

Circuit diagrams on page 4

and

http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/systems.htm

Although they are specific makers the parts are so interchangeable this
should be all you need.

PS if you're changing things consider "S" plan - it's better.

You don't normally need a bypass, the pump and boiler are called by the
valve opening, and can't start if there's no water path through rads
and/or HW cylinder

HTH

mike

Fill us in more and we will talk you though a system.



The current system is a very simple vented system. The boiler is a Rayburn
gas range cooker. The primary circuit heats the cylinder which is placed
about 3 metres vertically above it by gravity alone. A 't' on the flow side
of the primary circuit leads to a pump which circulates the central heating
system and the return also 't's into the return side of the primary circuit.
I should add this is all in a typical north london, georgean terrace house
which is 3 storeys.

My plan is to raise the hot water cylinder from the room above the boiler on
the 1st flow to a position directly above it on the 2nd floor. I'm fairly
certain that the additional distance will mean that relying on natural
circulation of the primary circuit alone will not heat the hot water tank
sufficiently, therefore I'm assuming I will have to pump the primary and
therefore install a 'Y' type circuit (which I am also assuming will be the
easiest/simplest circuit for me to install as a DIYer).

The only diagram I've so far found to work from is this one:

http://www.gasman.fsbusiness.co.uk/images/yppic.jpg

and I wanted to know if this is a simplified schematic or if I can actually
rely on this diagram alone to design my system. I recall on one similar
system I saw some kind of bypass (not too sure where) and some way to
isolate the central heating circuit entirely by moving a lever on the valve
so that in the summer the central heating circuit was entirely out of the
loop. Also, are there any other "bleed" vallves I need to insert in the
circuit other than at the top of the primary circuit?

Given the fact that I'm raising the tank I can actually take advantage of a
lot of existing pipework which is why the 'Y' system appeals. I also do not
need separate zones etc. Looking at the diagrams the 'Y' circuit seems to be
the simplest scheme.

Does any of this make sense and can you make any further
recommendations?????

TIA

Darth

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 20:50:41 +0000, Darth Ai wrote:

I want to relocate my existing primary circuit heated hot water tank to
another location in my house which will require me to install a 'Y'-type
system with a motorised three way valve. I've searched the Internet, without
much success so far, to find a clear circuit diagram which will help me
complete the re-piping of the system.

Does anyone know of a good source of diagrams either on the internet or
elsewhere which will help me design my pipe circuits? I think I understand
what I need to do but seeing in a picture/diagram would be worth a thousand
words. I am especially puzzled or concerned to know if I need to fit some
kind of bypass system around the motorised valve for either maintenance or
summer running.

TIA for any help than anyone can give me

Darth

The main FAQ for this group has a lot of diagrams for both the water and
electrical aspects.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

"mike ring" wrote in message
52.50...
"Darth Ai" wrote in
. uk:


Does anyone know of a good source of diagrams either on the internet
or elsewhere which will help me design my pipe circuits? I think I
understand what I need to do but seeing in a picture/diagram would be
worth a thousand words. I am especially puzzled or concerned to know
if I need to fit some kind of bypass system around the motorised valve
for either maintenance or summer running.




http://www.myson.ie/pdfs/dualchannel.pdf

Circuit diagrams on page 4

and

http://content.honeywell.com/uk/homes/systems.htm

Although they are specific makers the parts are so interchangeable this
should be all you need.

PS if you're changing things consider "S" plan - it's better.

You don't normally need a bypass, the pump and boiler are called by the
valve opening, and can't start if there's no water path through rads
and/or HW cylinder


If its a standard big lump of iron Rayburn then he WILL need to make
arrangements to dump heat from the unit when the heating is off and/or the
hot water is satisfied. Best advice is to consult AgaRayburn

If its a standard big lump of iron Rayburn then he WILL need to make
arrangements to dump heat from the unit when the heating is off and/or the
hot water is satisfied. Best advice is to consult AgaRayburn



I assume that is a simple as a hot water tank thermostat which will a)
divert the valve close the valve regulating the circulating of the primary
circuit, and b) turn off the burners if no other supply requires the heat,
e.g. the central heating.

Am I right in my assumption? How else can you "dump" heat?

Darth

"Darth Ai" wrote in message
k...
If its a standard big lump of iron Rayburn then he WILL need to make
arrangements to dump heat from the unit when the heating is off and/or
the
hot water is satisfied. Best advice is to consult AgaRayburn



I assume that is a simple as a hot water tank thermostat which will a)
divert the valve close the valve regulating the circulating of the primary
circuit, and b) turn off the burners if no other supply requires the heat,
e.g. the central heating.

Am I right in my assumption? How else can you "dump" heat?

Darth


Your post did not make clear what type of Rayburn you have but if the
"boiler" part is composed of a big solid lump of cast iron which is heated
by the same burner as the rest of the cooker as the early ones were then it
isn't possible to stop the water heating up when the cooker is in use so
turning off the flow to rads or cylinder primary will lead to the water
within the boiler actually boiling (ie rising to 100 deg C). A heat dump is
a radiator fed by gravity which dissipates the boiler heat - wasteful but
neccessary with this setup.
You might have a more modern Rayburn such as the Royale which has two
seperate burners one for the cooker and one for the boiler. In this case it
is possible to control the units seperately.
As I said it is best to ask Rayburn for a true assessment and correct
answer!

You might have a more modern Rayburn such as the Royale which has two
seperate burners one for the cooker and one for the boiler. In this case
it
is possible to control the units seperately.
As I said it is best to ask Rayburn for a true assessment and correct
answer!

John, you're right about contacing Rayburn and I'm going to call them on
Monday. But, as you point out, it is one of the more modern ones with a
separate boiler unit which is independently thermostatically controlled.

Whilst at the Rayburn site I noted that this type of Rayburn will support a
primary circuit working on pure convection up 20 metres in length. If this
is the case all I'd need to do is extend my existing primary circuit and I
don't have to bother with pumping it and all the attendant changes to
pipework, valves etc etc. Seems hard to believe which is why I want to
confirm with Rayburn directly.

Cheers

Darth

"Darth Ai" wrote in
. uk:


Whilst at the Rayburn site I noted that this type of Rayburn will
support a primary circuit working on pure convection up 20 metres in
length.

That's 28mm pipes for you!

mike

That's 28mm pipes for you!

mike

Not necessarily a problem as the rise is vertical straight to the cylinder.
I'll have to step down to 22mm for the final turn and connections, though.

Darth

"Darth Ai" wrote in
k:

That's 28mm pipes for you!

mike

Not necessarily a problem as the rise is vertical straight to the
cylinder. I'll have to step down to 22mm for the final turn and
connections, though.

I really meant that 28mm pipes are good for convection because the fatter
the pipe, the better; if you're pumping you don't need such thick pipes.

And do you have to step down? surely the necessary fittings are available,
and after the awful things I've just ripped out I'm getting obsessive about
not introducing any unnecessary constrictions!

mike

And do you have to step down? surely the necessary fittings are available,
and after the awful things I've just ripped out I'm getting obsessive
about
not introducing any unnecessary constrictions!

mike

Again, Mike, you are probably right. I'm just not as familiar as I used to
be with the conversion between the tap fittings on the cylinder and the pipe
fittings. I'll have to ask my friendly plumbers merchants what they can
supply! If you are right, hopefully I can just connect 28mm pipe directly to
the fittings on the cylinder, if not I'll have to step down to 22mm.

I don't know if I should confess this here but I am looking to try and do
this entire job using speedfit connectors. I'm only a DIY-er and I'm looking
for the most painless path to completing the job. I don't care how pretty it
looks because it is all in cupboard and the pipes themselves are routed
straight up through existing cupboards on all floors. In fact, given some of
the spaces I have to work in I doubt I could safely get a blow torch in to
make straight connects.

I need to try and do this entire job in about 2-3 days.

Cheers

Darth

"Darth Ai" wrote in
. uk:

If you are right, hopefully I can just
connect 28mm pipe directly to the fittings on the cylinder, if not
I'll have to step down to 22mm.

If you're having your cylinder built to order perhaps you could specify
28mm fittings - I just bought a quick recovery that has 22mm compression
fittings as standard and it's a lot easier than fooling around with BSP.

I don't know if I should confess this here but I am looking to try and
do this entire job using speedfit connectors.

I don't see anything wrong with that, but there are various types and
qualities of plastic fittings that you may get advice on from folks who've
used it - I stick with copper for cheapness (and elegance) of end feed
fittings, but mainly because I don't want to have to learn about plastic
assembly and demounting.

I need to try and do this entire job in about 2-3 days.

Good luck - mine's taking more like 2-3 months, but there's just me and
I've got mains water and an electric shower and it's summertime...

I guess I'd better sweat up another joint or two tomorrow, me zone valves
(Myson, with the pretty blinkenlights) and the full bore 22mm circulating
pump ball valves, are coming Monday

mike

"mike ring" wrote in message
52.50...
"Darth Ai" wrote in
. uk:

If you are right, hopefully I can just
connect 28mm pipe directly to the fittings on the cylinder, if not
I'll have to step down to 22mm.

If you're having your cylinder built to order perhaps you could specify
28mm fittings - I just bought a quick recovery that has 22mm compression
fittings as standard and it's a lot easier than fooling around with BSP.

I don't know if I should confess this here but I am looking to try and
do this entire job using speedfit connectors.

I don't see anything wrong with that,

Speedfit are about the worse plastic fittings.

but there are various types and
qualities of plastic fittings that you may get advice on from folks who've
used it - I stick with copper for cheapness (and elegance) of end feed
fittings, but mainly because I don't want to have to learn about plastic
assembly and demounting.

I need to try and do this entire job in about 2-3 days.

Two or three days? Get a combi and connecting is them simple.

Good luck - mine's taking more like 2-3 months, but there's just me and
I've got mains water and an electric shower and it's summertime...

I guess I'd better sweat up another joint or two tomorrow, me zone valves
(Myson, with the pretty blinkenlights) and the full bore 22mm circulating
pump ball valves, are coming Monday

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 00:03:44 +0100, "IMM" strung
together this:

Speedfit are about the worse plastic fittings.

To be fair, if you cut the pipe properly then all is well. Thickos who
can't use tools and\or pipe properly would find anything useless.

Get a combi

Only one?
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd

"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 00:03:44 +0100, "IMM" strung
together this:

Speedfit are about the worse plastic fittings.

To be fair, if you cut the pipe properly then all is well. Thickos who
can't use tools and\or pipe properly would find anything useless.

Mr, Pole, I would go along with that.

Get a combi

Only one?

You are right two would be better. My God Bean, you have 2/2 right.

Speedfit are about the worse plastic fittings.

To be fair, if you cut the pipe properly then all is well. Thickos who
can't use tools and\or pipe properly would find anything useless.

Mr, Pole, I would go along with that.

Get a combi

Only one?


To be fair, I don't think I would even contemplate returning to DIY plumbing
if speedfit had not come along. I've been very careful when using speedfit
to cut pipe squarely and I always clean pipe ends as though I am going to
sweat them which may seem extreme and obsessive. My father was a complete
nut about cleaning things up before assembling them and somewhat drilled the
practise into me, be it car mechanics, electrics or plumbing. I suspect it
was a carry over from his days in the services.

So far I have never had a problem with 15mm or 22mm fittings for both mains
and tank/cylider feeds. Haven't tried them on c/h which is why I'm a little
anxious about using them for the straight connections and elbows in my 28mm
piping. However, they are reputedly suitable for all c/h use so I'll press
ahead with speedfit and see what happens!

I still don't know what a "combi" is unless this is referring to a combi
boiler in which case I don't understand the relevance to this thread.

Darth

"Darth Ai" wrote in message
. uk...
Speedfit are about the worse plastic fittings.

To be fair, if you cut the pipe properly then all is well. Thickos who
can't use tools and\or pipe properly would find anything useless.

Mr, Pole, I would go along with that.

Get a combi

Only one?


To be fair, I don't think I would even contemplate returning to DIY
plumbing
if speedfit had not come along. I've been very careful when using speedfit
to cut pipe squarely and I always clean pipe ends as though I am going to
sweat them which may seem extreme and obsessive. My father was a complete
nut about cleaning things up before assembling them and somewhat drilled
the
practise into me, be it car mechanics, electrics or plumbing. I suspect it
was a carry over from his days in the services.

So far I have never had a problem with 15mm or 22mm fittings for both
mains
and tank/cylider feeds. Haven't tried them on c/h which is why I'm a
little
anxious about using them for the straight connections and elbows in my
28mm
piping. However, they are reputedly suitable for all c/h use so I'll press
ahead with speedfit and see what happens!

I strongly advise you not to use Speedfit. Marley Equator and Osma Gold are
far superior. You may regret it.

I still don't know what a "combi" is unless this is referring to a combi
boiler in which case I don't understand the relevance to this thread.

He does mean a combi boiler and there is not relevance to this thread. I
think Mr Pole is confused.

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:19:38 +0100, "IMM" strung
together this:

He does mean a combi boiler and there is not relevance to this thread. I
think Mr Pole is confused.

Er, you started with all the talk about combi boilers.
--

SJW
A.C.S. Ltd

"Lurch" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:19:38 +0100, "IMM" strung
together this:

He does mean a combi boiler and there is not relevance to this thread. I
think Mr Pole is confused.

Er, you started with all the talk about combi boilers.

He is a DIYers, so requires simple appliances to fit. A combi is simple for
him to fit. he should reassess his requirements.

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 17:25:12 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Lurch" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:19:38 +0100, "IMM" strung
together this:

He does mean a combi boiler and there is not relevance to this thread. I
think Mr Pole is confused.

Er, you started with all the talk about combi boilers.

He is a DIYers, so requires simple appliances to fit. A combi is simple for
him to fit. he should reassess his requirements.


Yet another put-down.

Why do you assume that a DIYer is someone with little brain or
ability?



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 17:25:12 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Lurch" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:19:38 +0100, "IMM" strung
together this:

He does mean a combi boiler and there is not relevance to this thread.
I
think Mr Pole is confused.

Er, you started with all the talk about combi boilers.

He is a DIYers, so requires simple appliances to fit. A combi is simple
for
him to fit. he should reassess his requirements.

Yet another put-down.

Why do you assume that a DIYer is someone with little brain or
ability?

He said his skill and knowledge is limited. He needs the simplest solution
for his limited skills.

On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 19:42:38 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 17:25:12 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Lurch" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:19:38 +0100, "IMM" strung
together this:

He does mean a combi boiler and there is not relevance to this thread.
I
think Mr Pole is confused.

Er, you started with all the talk about combi boilers.

He is a DIYers, so requires simple appliances to fit. A combi is simple
for
him to fit. he should reassess his requirements.

Yet another put-down.

Why do you assume that a DIYer is someone with little brain or
ability?

He said his skill and knowledge is limited. He needs the simplest solution
for his limited skills.

I don't think he really said that at all and certainly didn't ask for
one of your put downs.

The actual question is information on how to replumb an existing
system.

Why would you imagine that ripping everything out and fitting a combi
is the simplest solution? You don't know what the requirements are,
nor do you know what the water supply is like, to begin with.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In message , Andy Hall
writes
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 17:25:12 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Lurch" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:19:38 +0100, "IMM" strung
together this:

He does mean a combi boiler and there is not relevance to this thread. I
think Mr Pole is confused.

Er, you started with all the talk about combi boilers.

He is a DIYers, so requires simple appliances to fit. A combi is simple for
him to fit. he should reassess his requirements.


Yet another put-down.

Why do you assume that a DIYer is someone with little brain or
ability?

Maybe he aspires to be one

--
geoff

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 19:42:38 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 17:25:12 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Lurch" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:19:38 +0100, "IMM" strung
together this:

He does mean a combi boiler and there is not relevance to this
thread.
I
think Mr Pole is confused.

Er, you started with all the talk about combi boilers.

He is a DIYers, so requires simple appliances to fit. A combi is
simple
for
him to fit. he should reassess his requirements.

Yet another put-down.

Why do you assume that a DIYer is someone with little brain or
ability?

He said his skill and knowledge is limited. He needs the simplest
solution
for his limited skills.

I don't think he really said that at all and certainly didn't ask for
one of your put downs.

Not a put down. I am being realistic and helpful.

The actual question is information on how to replumb an existing
system.

But he probably needs to look at the big picture. I did that for him.

Why would you imagine that ripping everything out and fitting a combi
is the simplest solution?

One box that is easy to connect up.

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , Andy Hall
writes
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 17:25:12 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Lurch" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:19:38 +0100, "IMM" strung
together this:

He does mean a combi boiler and there is not relevance to this
thread. I
think Mr Pole is confused.

Er, you started with all the talk about combi boilers.

He is a DIYers, so requires simple appliances to fit. A combi is simple
for
him to fit. he should reassess his requirements.

Yet another put-down.

Why do you assume that a DIYer is someone with little brain or
ability?

Maybe he aspires to be one

Maxie, to be what?

"Lurch" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 15 Aug 2004 15:19:38 +0100, "IMM" strung
together this:

He does mean a combi boiler and there is not relevance to this thread.
I
think Mr Pole is confused.

Er, you started with all the talk about combi boilers.

He is a DIYers, so requires simple appliances to fit. A combi is simple
for
him to fit. he should reassess his requirements.


Yet another put-down.

Why do you assume that a DIYer is someone with little brain or
ability?



.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

OK, just to put the record straight. I'm an experienced DIYer but somewhat
lapsed and now revitalised. Since I last did any serious plumbing the
technology has changed so much (e.g. speedfit) that part of the problem I
face is coming up to speed with what is now available. This newsgroup is
great! The help I've had is really valuable and thanks to all posters.

For information, I am not about to junk my authentic Rayburn Nouvelle in
pillar box red enamel, which supplies tons of hot water and central heating
for a 'combi' boiler! But if I ever did I probably would put in a combi.

Darth