On 30/04/2020 08:19, Roland Perry wrote:
House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

Isn't the lead pipe soft enough to be able to make it rond enough for a
leadloc?

Two different views about sizing of the leadloc including shaving down
the pipe in the second video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I927yUnOXO0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKUt9CX3UKU


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Roger Hayter wrote:

Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 09:26:22 on Fri, 1 May
2020, Mark Carver remarked:
On 30/04/2020 08:19, Roland Perry wrote:
[My preference is to polypipe all the way to the water meter in the
pavement, but that involves digging up (and reinstating) rather a lot of
concrete path. As well as presumably getting the Water Company
involved.]

Which is what I did as part of a major refurb.
The water company (SE Water) didn't want to know, said it was my
problem. My builders dug the trench, the plumber replaced the whole run.

I'd have expected the water company to be interested in a least
supervising (on behalf of the highway authority) the couple of feet
between the front of my property and the water meter in the pavement.
At my expense, obviously!

I don't think the water company will care at all, but the highway
authority might do if your road is at all busy. If it isn't then
someone might difg a couple of feet ignoring the rules about getting
permission. But I would light it at night if it can't be done in a day.

And it may well be possible to push the pipe through the last couple of
feet (covered with thick polythene to protect it) behind the last cut
off piece of the lead pipe.
--

Roger Hayter

On 01/05/2020 20:15, Roger Hayter wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 09:26:22 on Fri, 1 May
2020, Mark Carver remarked:
On 30/04/2020 08:19, Roland Perry wrote:
[My preference is to polypipe all the way to the water meter in the
pavement, but that involves digging up (and reinstating) rather a lot of
concrete path. As well as presumably getting the Water Company
involved.]

Which is what I did as part of a major refurb.
The water company (SE Water) didn't want to know, said it was my
problem. My builders dug the trench, the plumber replaced the whole run.

I'd have expected the water company to be interested in a least
supervising (on behalf of the highway authority) the couple of feet
between the front of my property and the water meter in the pavement.
At my expense, obviously!

I don't think the water company will care at all, but the highway
authority might do if your road is at all busy. If it isn't then
someone might difg a couple of feet ignoring the rules about getting
permission. But I would light it at night if it can't be done in a day.


Thames Water appear to care to the extent they want you to (a) use an
approved plumber who self-certifies the work or (b) leave the trench
open for them to inspect the work later.



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 30/04/2020 08:19, Roland Perry wrote:
House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

[My preference is to polypipe all the way to the water meter in the
pavement, but that involves digging up (and reinstating) rather a lot of
concrete path. As well as presumably getting the Water Company
involved.]

ps The water company previously tested the potable supply for lead, and
declared it so low it probably wasn't a lead pipe anyway. Ho Hum.


I have a small kiln and to improve that situation I made wrap-around
"pillows" of glass-fibre roof insulation inside "pillow-cases" of the
woven glass fibre mat as used in car-body repair.
Don't rely on thermostat readings, get a range of proving cones to
confirm/calibrate any meter readings

My use of a kiln, to test out versions of things called mathematical tiles.
http://diverse.4mg.com/math_tiles.htm

In message , at 08:48:58 on Sat, 2 May 2020,
N_Cook remarked:

ps The water company previously tested the potable supply for lead, and
declared it so low it probably wasn't a lead pipe anyway. Ho Hum.

I have a small kiln and to improve that situation I made wrap-around
"pillows" of glass-fibre roof insulation inside "pillow-cases" of the
woven glass fibre mat as used in car-body repair.
Don't rely on thermostat readings, get a range of proving cones to
confirm/calibrate any meter readings

I don't have a kiln, and if I did it wouldn't be connected the potable
water supply.
--
Roland Perry

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

[My preference is to polypipe all the way to the water meter in the
pavement, but that involves digging up (and reinstating) rather a lot of
concrete path. As well as presumably getting the Water Company
involved.]

ps The water company previously tested the potable supply for lead, and
declared it so low it probably wasn't a lead pipe anyway. Ho Hum.

No big deal to connect lead to copper using solder. For a decent plumber.

And copper to plastic then gets you into not needing a decent plumber.

--
*Why is 'abbreviation' such a long word?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , at 11:15:45 on Sat, 2 May
2020, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

[My preference is to polypipe all the way to the water meter in the
pavement, but that involves digging up (and reinstating) rather a lot of
concrete path. As well as presumably getting the Water Company
involved.]

ps The water company previously tested the potable supply for lead, and
declared it so low it probably wasn't a lead pipe anyway. Ho Hum.

No big deal to connect lead to copper using solder. For a decent plumber.

The consensus is that this is now banned for potable water.

And copper to plastic then gets you into not needing a decent plumber.

One thing I've learnt in this thread is that there's probably no such
thing as a lead-polypipe connector. You have to go via copper.
--
Roland Perry

On 02/05/2020 11:31, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:15:45 on Sat, 2 May
2020, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:
In article ,
Â* Roland Perry wrote:
House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

[My preference is to polypipe all the way to the water meter in the
pavement, but that involves digging up (and reinstating) rather a lot of
concrete path. As well as presumably getting the Water Company
involved.]

ps The water company previously tested the potable supply for lead, and
Â*Â* declared it so low it probably wasn't a lead pipe anyway. Ho Hum.

No big deal to connect lead to copper using solder. For a decent plumber.

The consensus is that this is now banned for potable water.

And copper to plastic then gets you into not needing a decent plumber.

One thing I've learnt in this thread is that there's probably no such
thing as a lead-polypipe connector. You have to go via copper.

I've read the thread as pointing to either copper soldered to lead or a
lead-lock; and you can use lead-locks to plastic pipe (with insert where
appropriate).






--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Robin wrote:

I've read the thread as pointing to either copper soldered to lead or a
lead-lock; and you can use lead-locks to plastic pipe (with insert where
appropriate).

The lead-loc plus range P/N DP200x are for MDPE rather than copper

http://mr-lead-loc.com/Lead-Loc-Plus-Range-C273408.aspx

sizing/fitting instructions in case Roland wants to keep an eye on
whether his plumber is doing it right

http://www.melimatic.com/4.html

In message , at
11:59:49 on Sat, 2 May 2020, Robin remarked:

No big deal to connect lead to copper using solder. For a decent plumber.
The consensus is that this is now banned for potable water.

And copper to plastic then gets you into not needing a decent
plumber.

One thing I've learnt in this thread is that there's probably no
such thing as a lead-polypipe connector. You have to go via copper.

I've read the thread as pointing to either copper soldered to lead

which isn't allowed.

or a lead-lock; and you can use lead-locks to plastic pipe (with insert
where appropriate).

Indeed. But is there no such thing as a poly-lead leadlock?

It's not a huge issue, other than trying to get the plumber to put one
(or two) on his van before he arrives.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at
11:59:49 on Sat, 2 May 2020, Robin remarked:

No big deal to connect lead to copper using solder. For a decent plumber.
The consensus is that this is now banned for potable water.

And copper to plastic then gets you into not needing a decent
plumber.

One thing I've learnt in this thread is that there's probably no
such thing as a lead-polypipe connector. You have to go via copper.

I've read the thread as pointing to either copper soldered to lead

which isn't allowed.

or a lead-lock; and you can use lead-locks to plastic pipe (with insert
where appropriate).

Indeed. But is there no such thing as a poly-lead leadlock?

It's not a huge issue, other than trying to get the plumber to put one
(or two) on his van before he arrives.

You can put polypipe in a standard compression fitting for copper tube.
I believe copper olives are preferred, but you can get loose copper
olives easily. And obviously you must use a pipe insert. I suspect
the end result is more reliable than a push fit connector.


--

Roger Hayter

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
No big deal to connect lead to copper using solder. For a decent
plumber.

The consensus is that this is now banned for potable water.

They have banned a soldered joint in a lead pipe carrying potable water?

Does Trump make the rules in the UK?

--
*I dropped out of communism class because of lousy Marx.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Roger Hayter wrote:

Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at
11:59:49 on Sat, 2 May 2020, Robin remarked:

No big deal to connect lead to copper using solder. For a decent
plumber. The consensus is that this is now banned for potable water.

And copper to plastic then gets you into not needing a decent
plumber.

One thing I've learnt in this thread is that there's probably no
such thing as a lead-polypipe connector. You have to go via copper.

I've read the thread as pointing to either copper soldered to lead

which isn't allowed.

or a lead-lock; and you can use lead-locks to plastic pipe (with insert
where appropriate).

Indeed. But is there no such thing as a poly-lead leadlock?

It's not a huge issue, other than trying to get the plumber to put one
(or two) on his van before he arrives.

You can put polypipe in a standard compression fitting for copper tube.
I believe copper olives are preferred, but you can get loose copper
olives easily. And obviously you must use a pipe insert. I suspect
the end result is more reliable than a push fit connector.

PS there may be a size matching problem with MDPE but if you can't get a
suitable size leadlock or suitable size MDPE then I think you can get
28/25 or 22/20 adaptor olives.


--

Roger Hayter

On 02/05/2020 12:20, Andy Burns wrote:
Robin wrote:

I've read the thread as pointing to either copper soldered to lead or
a lead-lock; and you can use lead-locks to plastic pipe (with insert
where appropriate).

The lead-loc plus range P/N DP200x are for MDPE rather than copper

http://mr-lead-loc.com/Lead-Loc-Plus-Range-C273408.aspx

other brands are available. I've used Philmac in the past with 15mm
PEX. We don't know the size of the lead pipe from a quick search some
examples are

https://www.bes.co.uk/1-2in-x-6-lb-l...ead-line-10271

https://www.bes.co.uk/1-2in-x-7-lb-l...ead-line-10272

https://www.screwfix.com/p/compressi...1-x-15mm/53125

https://www.toolstation.com/lead-to-...coupler/p42006

https://www.selcobw.com/lead-lock-15mm-x-lead-coupler


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 02/05/2020 13:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
No big deal to connect lead to copper using solder. For a decent
plumber.

The consensus is that this is now banned for potable water.

They have banned a soldered joint in a lead pipe carrying potable water?

Does Trump make the rules in the UK?


If there's lead in the solder, yes. And in Regulations made in 1999 so
you know which government to slag off.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Robin wrote:

We don't know the size of the lead pipe

The lead-loc manufacturer recommends not measuring diameter, instead
measuring twice the circumference with a piece of cotton, the halving it
(presumably to reduce error).

On 02/05/2020 11:31, Roland Perry wrote:

One thing I've learnt in this thread is that there's probably no such
thing as a lead-polypipe connector. You have to go via copper.

Lead to MDPE here

https://www.bes.co.uk/pipes-tubes-fi...sion/lead-pipe

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 02/05/2020 13:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
No big deal to connect lead to copper using solder. For a decent
plumber.

The consensus is that this is now banned for potable water.

They have banned a soldered joint in a lead pipe carrying potable water?

Does Trump make the rules in the UK?


If there's lead in the solder, yes. And in Regulations made in 1999 so
you know which government to slag off.

Lead free solder has been around for ages.

I ask again. You have perhaps miles of lead pipe carrying potable water. A
single solder joint - even with lead solder - is going to make a
difference?

--
*Money isn‘t everything, but it sure keeps the kids in touch

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 02/05/2020 13:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
No big deal to connect lead to copper using solder. For a decent
plumber.

The consensus is that this is now banned for potable water.

They have banned a soldered joint in a lead pipe carrying potable water?

Does Trump make the rules in the UK?


If there's lead in the solder, yes. And in Regulations made in 1999 so
you know which government to slag off.

Lead free solder has been around for ages.

I ask again. You have perhaps miles of lead pipe carrying potable water. A
single solder joint - even with lead solder - is going to make a
difference?

I don't think lead free solder will work. (It doesn't work for most
things!) And perhaps a fresh lead surface will dissolve more for a few
decades than the coated internal lining of the whle of the old pipe, I
don't know but it is quite credible.



--

Roger Hayter

alan_m wrote:

On 02/05/2020 11:31, Roland Perry wrote:

One thing I've learnt in this thread is that there's probably no such
thing as a lead-polypipe connector. You have to go via copper.

Lead to MDPE here

https://www.bes.co.uk/pipes-tubes-fi...sion/lead-pipe

Come to think of it, since most of the lead pipe still in use will be
underground house supplies it is not surprising that specific MDPE sizes
are available.

--

Roger Hayter

On 02/05/2020 13:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 02/05/2020 13:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
No big deal to connect lead to copper using solder. For a decent
plumber.

The consensus is that this is now banned for potable water.

They have banned a soldered joint in a lead pipe carrying potable water?

Does Trump make the rules in the UK?


If there's lead in the solder, yes. And in Regulations made in 1999 so
you know which government to slag off.

Lead free solder has been around for ages.

Then go for it. Or find a plumber who will do it. May be easy with
newer solders. All I know is plumbers who gave up when lead free
solders had a higher melting point and lacked the "squidgy" stage (see
John Rumm's post for proper terminology).

I ask again. You have perhaps miles of lead pipe carrying potable water. A
single solder joint - even with lead solder - is going to make a
difference?


That's a different question from the one you asked before.

And one which seems to me to depend on (a) where are these miles of lead
pipe, (b) how you know yours would be the first lead soldered joint, and
(c) how will future plumbers know that you and others and done before them.






--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 02/05/2020 13:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 02/05/2020 13:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
No big deal to connect lead to copper using solder. For a decent
plumber.

The consensus is that this is now banned for potable water.

They have banned a soldered joint in a lead pipe carrying potable
water?

Does Trump make the rules in the UK?


If there's lead in the solder, yes. And in Regulations made in 1999
so you know which government to slag off.

Lead free solder has been around for ages.

Then go for it. Or find a plumber who will do it. May be easy with
newer solders. All I know is plumbers who gave up when lead free
solders had a higher melting point and lacked the "squidgy" stage (see
John Rumm's post for proper terminology).

I ask again. You have perhaps miles of lead pipe carrying potable
water. A single solder joint - even with lead solder - is going to
make a difference?


That's a different question from the one you asked before.

Not really.

And one which seems to me to depend on (a) where are these miles of lead
pipe, (b) how you know yours would be the first lead soldered joint,
and (c) how will future plumbers know that you and others and done
before them.

But in this case, we are talking about making one connection to an
existing lead pipe.

I've only ever done this once. Hammered a bit of 15mm copper into the lead
an inch or so, after cleaning the lead. All that was then needed was a
fillet of solder between them to seal it. Has worked for the past 40 odd
years. ;-)

--
*A fool and his money are soon partying *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 02/05/2020 14:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 02/05/2020 13:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

snip.

I ask again. You have perhaps miles of lead pipe carrying potable
water. A single solder joint - even with lead solder - is going to
make a difference?


That's a different question from the one you asked before.

Not really.

And one which seems to me to depend on (a) where are these miles of lead
pipe, (b) how you know yours would be the first lead soldered joint,
and (c) how will future plumbers know that you and others and done
before them.

But in this case, we are talking about making one connection to an
existing lead pipe.

You're the one who raised the miles of lead pipe.

I've only ever done this once. Hammered a bit of 15mm copper into the lead
an inch or so, after cleaning the lead. All that was then needed was a
fillet of solder between them to seal it. Has worked for the past 40 odd
years. ;-)


Good for you - but then it wasn't illegal then. I'd not blame Roland's
contractor for declining to go that route.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

In message , at 13:20:27 on Sat, 2 May
2020, Andy Burns remarked:
Robin wrote:

We don't know the size of the lead pipe

The lead-loc manufacturer recommends not measuring diameter, instead
measuring twice the circumference with a piece of cotton, the halving
it (presumably to reduce error).

Measuring once around the circumference gives me 75mm, so a diameter of
~23.8mm hence probably 0.918"
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 13:41:44 on Sat, 2 May
2020, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:

No big deal to connect lead to copper using solder. For a decent
plumber.

The consensus is that this is now banned for potable water.

They have banned a soldered joint in a lead pipe carrying potable water?

Does Trump make the rules in the UK?


If there's lead in the solder, yes. And in Regulations made in 1999 so
you know which government to slag off.

Lead free solder has been around for ages.

I ask again. You have perhaps miles of lead pipe carrying potable water. A
single solder joint - even with lead solder - is going to make a
difference?

I agree about the minima risk, but the consensus here is that it's
banned anyway.
--
Roland Perry

On 02/05/2020 13:57:18, Roger Hayter wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 02/05/2020 13:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
No big deal to connect lead to copper using solder. For a decent
plumber.

The consensus is that this is now banned for potable water.

They have banned a soldered joint in a lead pipe carrying potable water?

Does Trump make the rules in the UK?


If there's lead in the solder, yes. And in Regulations made in 1999 so
you know which government to slag off.

Lead free solder has been around for ages.

I ask again. You have perhaps miles of lead pipe carrying potable water. A
single solder joint - even with lead solder - is going to make a
difference?

I don't think lead free solder will work. (It doesn't work for most
things!) And perhaps a fresh lead surface will dissolve more for a few
decades than the coated internal lining of the whle of the old pipe, I
don't know but it is quite credible.

I asked another poster who made the assertion "Law prohibits 'sweating'
lead to copper" a similar question.

It seems you can use lead free solder on lead:

https://www.wras.co.uk/resources/int...tallation/i25/

Given the way tin alloys with lead I'm not surprised.

Roland Perry wrote:

Measuring once around the circumference gives me 75mm, so a diameter of
~23.8mm hence probably 0.918"

So he knows he needs a 7lb lead connector to whatever size MDPE, the
instruction "The fitting can not be over tightened" probably sounds like
"challenge accepted" to a plumber :-)

On 02/05/2020 15:58:40, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:41:44 on Sat, 2 May
2020, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:

No big deal to connect lead to copper using solder. For a decent
plumber.

The consensus is that this is now banned for potable water.

They have banned a soldered joint in a lead pipe carrying potable
water?

Does Trump make the rules in the UK?


If there's lead in the solder, yes.Â* And in Regulations made in 1999 so
you know which government to slag off.

Lead free solder has been around for ages.

I ask again. You have perhaps miles of lead pipe carrying potable
water. A
single solder joint - even with lead solder - is going to make a
difference?

I agree about the minima risk, but the consensus here is that it's
banned anyway.

Without any evidence it is banned.

If WRAS say you can, I don't have a problem, even if others say you mustn't.

In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 02/05/2020 14:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 02/05/2020 13:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

snip.

I ask again. You have perhaps miles of lead pipe carrying potable
water. A single solder joint - even with lead solder - is going to
make a difference?


That's a different question from the one you asked before.

Not really.

And one which seems to me to depend on (a) where are these miles of
lead pipe, (b) how you know yours would be the first lead soldered
joint, and (c) how will future plumbers know that you and others and
done before them.

But in this case, we are talking about making one connection to an
existing lead pipe.

You're the one who raised the miles of lead pipe.

And you know how long the pipe is in the OP's case? Or just don't
understand the principle.

I've only ever done this once. Hammered a bit of 15mm copper into the
lead an inch or so, after cleaning the lead. All that was then needed
was a fillet of solder between them to seal it. Has worked for the
past 40 odd years. ;-)


Good for you - but then it wasn't illegal then. I'd not blame Roland's
contractor for declining to go that route.

Of course not. He will want to make the maximum profit from the job.

--
*I finally got my head together, now my body is falling apart.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 13:41:44 on Sat, 2 May
2020, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:

No big deal to connect lead to copper using solder. For a decent
plumber.

The consensus is that this is now banned for potable water.

They have banned a soldered joint in a lead pipe carrying potable
water?

Does Trump make the rules in the UK?


If there's lead in the solder, yes. And in Regulations made in 1999
so you know which government to slag off.

Lead free solder has been around for ages.

I ask again. You have perhaps miles of lead pipe carrying potable
water. A single solder joint - even with lead solder - is going to make
a difference?

I agree about the minima risk, but the consensus here is that it's
banned anyway.

It's a tradition of uk.d-i-y to ignore stupid regulations.

--
*Great groups from little icons grow *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , at 08:19:24 on Thu, 30 Apr 2020,
Roland Perry remarked:
House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

[My preference is to polypipe all the way to the water meter in the
pavement, but that involves digging up (and reinstating) rather a lot of
concrete path. As well as presumably getting the Water Company
involved.]

ps The water company previously tested the potable supply for lead, and
declared it so low it probably wasn't a lead pipe anyway. Ho Hum.

I value all the comments made so far. Here's a photo (now I've started
to take apart the kitchen unit with the old stopcock in it).

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/stopcock.jpg

Points to note:

When buying the house the only visibility of the pipe was above the
unit's chipboard floor, about 1cm, which everyone declared to be black
polypipe (despite my misgivings).

There's a lead-to-copper connector whose body is almost spherical.

Above that is a copper reducer before the stopcock itself.

The floor is concrete and Marley tiles, and the stopcock needs moving
about two feet towards the camera, with the floor in the area below the
stopcock eventually being in the open air and level.

My solution so far has been to install a polypipe from roughly where the
camera is, to outside where the lead pipe starts heading for the street.

Didn't want to be doing any of this, but as the contractors have fled
because of lockdown, I would like to get them up to speed as quickly as
possible when they do eventually return.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 16:52:42 on Sat, 2 May
2020, Andy Burns remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:

Measuring once around the circumference gives me 75mm, so a diameter
of ~23.8mm hence probably 0.918"

So he knows he needs a 7lb lead connector to whatever size MDPE, the
instruction "The fitting can not be over tightened"

"Is impossible to" vs "must not be" ?

probably sounds like "challenge accepted" to a plumber :-)

--
Roland Perry

In message , at 16:56:06 on Sat, 2 May
2020, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:

You're the one who raised the miles of lead pipe.

And you know how long the pipe is in the OP's case? Or just don't
understand the principle.

It's about 25m to the street.

I've only ever done this once. Hammered a bit of 15mm copper into the
lead an inch or so, after cleaning the lead. All that was then needed
was a fillet of solder between them to seal it. Has worked for the
past 40 odd years. ;-)


Good for you - but then it wasn't illegal then. I'd not blame Roland's
contractor for declining to go that route.

Of course not. He will want to make the maximum profit from the job.

I'm pretty sure he's quoted[1] in effect a fixed price to the builder;
the problem with that is the temptation to scrimp on the consumables.

[1] Ditto the groundworks contractor and electrician. The builder's
people just do windows/doors and plastering. Biggest demarcation
dispute is plumbing (aka drainage, but now we have this pesky lead
supply pipe) that's below floor level (apparently counts as
groundworks) vs the rest.
--
Roland Perry

On 02/05/2020 14:51:06, Robin wrote:
On 02/05/2020 14:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Robin wrote:
On 02/05/2020 13:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

snip.

I ask again. You have perhaps miles of lead pipe carrying potable
water. A single solder joint - even with lead solder - is going to
make a difference?


That's a different question from the one you asked before.

Not really.

And one which seems to me to depend on (a) where are these miles of lead
pipe, (b) how you know yours would be the first lead soldered joint,
and (c) how will future plumbers know that you and others and done
before them.

But in this case, we are talking about making one connection to an
existing lead pipe.

You're the one who raised the miles of lead pipe.

I've only ever done this once. Hammered a bit of 15mm copper into the
lead
an inch or so, after cleaning the lead. All that was then needed was a
fillet of solder between them to seal it. Has worked for the past 40 odd
years. ;-)


Good for you - but then it wasn't illegal then.Â* I'd not blame Roland's
contractor for declining to go that route.

Before perpetuating the fallacy it would be a good idea to provide
evidence it is illegal.

On 02/05/2020 17:18, Fredxx wrote:
On 02/05/2020 14:51:06, Robin wrote:
On 02/05/2020 14:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Robin wrote:
On 02/05/2020 13:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

snip.

I ask again. You have perhaps miles of lead pipe carrying potable
water. A single solder joint - even with lead solder - is going to
make a difference?


That's a different question from the one you asked before.

Not really.

And one which seems to me to depend on (a) where are these miles of
lead
pipe, (b) how you know yours would be the first lead soldered joint,
and (c) how will future plumbers know that you and others and done
before them.

But in this case, we are talking about making one connection to an
existing lead pipe.

You're the one who raised the miles of lead pipe.

I've only ever done this once. Hammered a bit of 15mm copper into the
lead
an inch or so, after cleaning the lead. All that was then needed was a
fillet of solder between them to seal it. Has worked for the past 40 odd
years. ;-)


Good for you - but then it wasn't illegal then.Â* I'd not blame
Roland's contractor for declining to go that route.

Before perpetuating the fallacy it would be a good idea to provide
evidence it is illegal.


AIUI it's in the link you provided: para 2(1) of Schedule 2 to the Water
Supply (Water Fittings) Regulations 1999.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1...chedule/2/made

The text you quoted states that led free solder is acceptable for
repairs "Where damage is restricted to small areas on internal above
ground lead pipe" and goes on "For all other types of installation ...".



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 02/05/2020 17:47:17, Robin wrote:
On 02/05/2020 17:18, Fredxx wrote:
On 02/05/2020 14:51:06, Robin wrote:
On 02/05/2020 14:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Robin wrote:
On 02/05/2020 13:41, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

snip.

I ask again. You have perhaps miles of lead pipe carrying potable
water. A single solder joint - even with lead solder - is going to
make a difference?


That's a different question from the one you asked before.

Not really.

And one which seems to me to depend on (a) where are these miles of
lead
pipe, (b) how you know yours would be the first lead soldered joint,
and (c) how will future plumbers know that you and others and done
before them.

But in this case, we are talking about making one connection to an
existing lead pipe.

You're the one who raised the miles of lead pipe.

I've only ever done this once. Hammered a bit of 15mm copper into
the lead
an inch or so, after cleaning the lead. All that was then needed was a
fillet of solder between them to seal it. Has worked for the past 40
odd
years. ;-)


Good for you - but then it wasn't illegal then.Â* I'd not blame
Roland's contractor for declining to go that route.

Before perpetuating the fallacy it would be a good idea to provide
evidence it is illegal.


AIUI it's in the link you provided: para 2(1) of Schedule 2 to the Water
Supply (Water Fittings) Regulations 1999.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1...chedule/2/made

Which doesn't say you can't solder with lead free solder. If you can
find anywhere that says I can't solder on a copper pipe onto lead, then
you're doing better than me.

The text you quoted states that led free solder is acceptable for
repairs "Where damage is restricted to small areas on internal above
ground lead pipe" and goes on "For all other types of installation ...".

Quite, which is the typical reason why you might want to repair or
replace a section of lead pipe. There is no legislation saying I can't
repair it by replacing a section with copper, of course using lead free
solder (for a potable supply).

Fredxx wrote:

On 02/05/2020 13:57:18, Roger Hayter wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 02/05/2020 13:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
No big deal to connect lead to copper using solder. For a decent
plumber.

The consensus is that this is now banned for potable water.

They have banned a soldered joint in a lead pipe carrying potable water?

Does Trump make the rules in the UK?


If there's lead in the solder, yes. And in Regulations made in 1999 so
you know which government to slag off.

Lead free solder has been around for ages.

I ask again. You have perhaps miles of lead pipe carrying potable water. A
single solder joint - even with lead solder - is going to make a
difference?

I don't think lead free solder will work. (It doesn't work for most
things!) And perhaps a fresh lead surface will dissolve more for a few
decades than the coated internal lining of the whle of the old pipe, I
don't know but it is quite credible.

I asked another poster who made the assertion "Law prohibits 'sweating'
lead to copper" a similar question.

It seems you can use lead free solder on lead:

https://www.wras.co.uk/resources/int...tallation/i25/

Given the way tin alloys with lead I'm not surprised.

I note that reference confirms my supposition that a fresh lead surface
leads to increased lead levels in the water. I note that lead free
solder may be permitted, but I look forwarded to hearing from anyone who
has successfully made a wiped joint with it.

--

Roger Hayter

Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 08:19:24 on Thu, 30 Apr 2020,
Roland Perry remarked:
House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

[My preference is to polypipe all the way to the water meter in the
pavement, but that involves digging up (and reinstating) rather a lot of
concrete path. As well as presumably getting the Water Company
involved.]

ps The water company previously tested the potable supply for lead, and
declared it so low it probably wasn't a lead pipe anyway. Ho Hum.

I value all the comments made so far. Here's a photo (now I've started
to take apart the kitchen unit with the old stopcock in it).

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/stopcock.jpg

Points to note:

When buying the house the only visibility of the pipe was above the
unit's chipboard floor, about 1cm, which everyone declared to be black
polypipe (despite my misgivings).

There's a lead-to-copper connector whose body is almost spherical.

Above that is a copper reducer before the stopcock itself.

The floor is concrete and Marley tiles, and the stopcock needs moving
about two feet towards the camera, with the floor in the area below the
stopcock eventually being in the open air and level.

My solution so far has been to install a polypipe from roughly where the
camera is, to outside where the lead pipe starts heading for the street.

Didn't want to be doing any of this, but as the contractors have fled
because of lockdown, I would like to get them up to speed as quickly as
possible when they do eventually return.

How are you planning to bury the MDPE under the floor so that it is at
least 2' deep where it passes through the wall? Doesn't this involve
digging up the kitchen floor? Is there no way you can extend copper in
place of the existing stopcock and box it in? If you are going to be
digging up the floor and a 2' hole outside I'd strongly recommend
replacing the whole of the lead pipe to the stopcock. If by any chance
you've got retricted flow it may help this, as well as avoid the worry
of a buried adaptor with two compression joints.
--

Roger Hayter

On 02/05/2020 22:48:59, Roger Hayter wrote:
Fredxx wrote:

On 02/05/2020 13:57:18, Roger Hayter wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 02/05/2020 13:13, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
No big deal to connect lead to copper using solder. For a decent
plumber.

The consensus is that this is now banned for potable water.

They have banned a soldered joint in a lead pipe carrying potable water?

Does Trump make the rules in the UK?


If there's lead in the solder, yes. And in Regulations made in 1999 so
you know which government to slag off.

Lead free solder has been around for ages.

I ask again. You have perhaps miles of lead pipe carrying potable water. A
single solder joint - even with lead solder - is going to make a
difference?

I don't think lead free solder will work. (It doesn't work for most
things!) And perhaps a fresh lead surface will dissolve more for a few
decades than the coated internal lining of the whle of the old pipe, I
don't know but it is quite credible.

I asked another poster who made the assertion "Law prohibits 'sweating'
lead to copper" a similar question.

It seems you can use lead free solder on lead:

https://www.wras.co.uk/resources/int...tallation/i25/

Given the way tin alloys with lead I'm not surprised.

I note that reference confirms my supposition that a fresh lead surface
leads to increased lead levels in the water. I note that lead free
solder may be permitted, but I look forwarded to hearing from anyone who
has successfully made a wiped joint with it.

If you cut away a pipe in the manner you might expect to fit a Lead-Loc
then fresh lead will be exposed. I don't see the advantage over fitting
a 15mm copper pipe into a lead pipe and soldering the two. Lead melts at
a higher temperature than lead free solder. It is possible less fresh
lead is exposed in a soldered combination that can leach lead.

Most of the youtube videos regarding wiping a joint use 60/40 tin/lead
solder. That is pretty close to eutectic. I always thought for wiping
you used a 70/30 lead/tin where you had a wide temperature range when
the solder is workable as it cools.

In message , at 22:49:00 on Sat,
2 May 2020, Roger Hayter remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 08:19:24 on Thu, 30 Apr 2020,
Roland Perry remarked:
House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

[My preference is to polypipe all the way to the water meter in the
pavement, but that involves digging up (and reinstating) rather a lot of
concrete path. As well as presumably getting the Water Company
involved.]

ps The water company previously tested the potable supply for lead, and
declared it so low it probably wasn't a lead pipe anyway. Ho Hum.

I value all the comments made so far. Here's a photo (now I've started
to take apart the kitchen unit with the old stopcock in it).

http://www.perry.co.uk/images/stopcock.jpg

Points to note:

When buying the house the only visibility of the pipe was above the
unit's chipboard floor, about 1cm, which everyone declared to be black
polypipe (despite my misgivings).

There's a lead-to-copper connector whose body is almost spherical.

Above that is a copper reducer before the stopcock itself.

The floor is concrete and Marley tiles, and the stopcock needs moving
about two feet towards the camera, with the floor in the area below the
stopcock eventually being in the open air and level.

My solution so far has been to install a polypipe from roughly where the
camera is, to outside where the lead pipe starts heading for the street.

Didn't want to be doing any of this, but as the contractors have fled
because of lockdown, I would like to get them up to speed as quickly as
possible when they do eventually return.

How are you planning to bury the MDPE under the floor so that it is at
least 2' deep where it passes through the wall? Doesn't this involve
digging up the kitchen floor?

The groundworks chap has already done that. Of course, it won't *be* a
wall eventually, because it is being demolished to make one large room.
There's already an RSJ fitted above (2 o'clock to 8 o'clock in the photo
if that makes sense). But lockdown happened the day before the stub of
that wall was scheduled to come out. (The main thing it's doing useful
at the moment is keeping the old stopcock upright).

Is there no way you can extend copper in place of the existing stopcock
and box it in?

No, because the old stopcock will be bang in the middle of the floor of
the 'corridor' around the new central island in the kitchen/diner.

The only way to re-use the lead piping internally, would be to dig
around it (rather restricted space and the floor tiles are as tough as
old boots) down sufficiently far to be able to fit a right-angle bend to
the left, and away to where the new sink will be.

If you are going to be digging up the floor and a 2' hole outside

The floor where the sink is being repositioned to has been dug up
already, as has the whole area on the "outside" of the wall (which is
"inside" the new side extension). It was when digging that up that they
discovered the lead water main, which is along the side of the house and
then right angle turn into the old kitchen under the original wall.

I'd strongly recommend replacing the whole of the lead pipe to the
stopcock.

See my original posting. That's plan B, but arranging that during
lockdown is going to be difficult. It also means digging up (and
reinstating) 20m of concrete path (also difficult in lockdown, as well
as a fairly major project.).

In a previous house where I did a very similar project (new
kitchen/diner extension at the rear) they polypiped it off the old lead
main under the floorboards just inside the front door. And very little
drama.

If by any chance you've got retricted flow it may help this, as well as
avoid the worry of a buried adaptor with two compression joints.

I'm probably as worried about spending another six weeks with no kitchen
to speak of (we've effectively got a standpipe where the old sink was,
and a 3" hole in the floor as a drain).
--
Roland Perry