Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

[My preference is to polypipe all the way to the water meter in the
pavement, but that involves digging up (and reinstating) rather a lot of
concrete path. As well as presumably getting the Water Company
involved.]

ps The water company previously tested the potable supply for lead, and
declared it so low it probably wasn't a lead pipe anyway. Ho Hum.
--
Roland Perry

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

Mine is lead, but I think the water hardness has in fact plated the inside
of it with limescale. Just inside what would have been the larder is a join
to copper which looks like two kind of indentations just after the join. I
suspect its some kind of soldered sleeve. It predates our residency, but
there are signs of it being replaced, so it was probably lead all the way up
to the first floor at least originally.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

[My preference is to polypipe all the way to the water meter in the
pavement, but that involves digging up (and reinstating) rather a lot of
concrete path. As well as presumably getting the Water Company
involved.]

ps The water company previously tested the potable supply for lead, and
declared it so low it probably wasn't a lead pipe anyway. Ho Hum.
--
Roland Perry

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

Roland Perry wrote:

House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

Maybe the plumber has run out of moleskin?

There is a lead-loc compression connector that might be useful to fit a
short run of copper between the lead and MDPE?

[My preference is to polypipe all the way to the water meter in the
pavement, but that involves digging up (and reinstating) rather a lot of
concrete path. As well as presumably getting the Water Company
involved.]

mole?

ps The water company previously tested the potable supply for lead, and
declared it so low it probably wasn't a lead pipe anyway. Ho Hum.

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

In message , at 08:25:21 on Thu, 30 Apr
2020, "Brian Gaff (Sofa)" remarked:

Mine is lead, but I think the water hardness has in fact plated the inside
of it with limescale.

That's my guess here, too.

Just inside what would have been the larder is a join to copper which
looks like two kind of indentations just after the join. I suspect its
some kind of soldered sleeve.

Yes the existing plumbing was (as it turns out) Pb to a stopcock under
the original sink, and then copper onwards and upwards. [The latter
never being in dispute]

The only other possibility was a black polypipe, which I didn't think
was a thing, but I got outvoted by the baying masses, who turn out to be
not sufficiently informed observers.

It predates our residency, but there are signs of it being replaced, so
it was probably lead all the way up to the first floor at least
originally.

The problem is the old stopcock is no longer within the footprint of the
kitchen units in the proposed remodelled (extended) kitchen.

It needs moving about three feet sideways.
--
Roland Perry

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

In message , at 08:40:58 on Thu, 30
Apr 2020, Andy Burns remarked:
Roland Perry wrote:

House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.
Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough
to
attach the connector he has in mind.
Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe
side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

Maybe the plumber has run out of moleskin?

There is a lead-loc compression connector that might be useful to fit a
short run of copper between the lead and MDPE?

The MDPE has been installed (in a huge rush the day before lockdown)
between the proposed new stopcock location and outside the house
adjacent to the original lead piping.

[My preference is to polypipe all the way to the water meter in the
pavement, but that involves digging up (and reinstating) rather a lot of
concrete path. As well as presumably getting the Water Company
involved.]

mole?

That would get it under the pavement from my property to the meter, but
I am not that enamoured with my concrete front path anyway. There's
about 20m of life-expired slab.

ps The water company previously tested the potable supply for lead, and
declared it so low it probably wasn't a lead pipe anyway. Ho Hum.

--
Roland Perry

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

Doesn't sound much of a plumber if he can't reshape lead sufficient to allow a seal to one of the available soft seal compression joints. (Most would have sweated a joint and said nothing)

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

In message , at
01:43:05 on Thu, 30 Apr 2020, Cynic remarked:

Doesn't sound much of a plumber if he can't reshape lead sufficient to
allow a seal to one of the available soft seal compression joints.
(Most would have sweated a joint and said nothing)

Currently I don't have a choice as he's the subby nominated by the
builders. If I can make his job easier in the short term that's a win.
--
Roland Perry

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 08:19:24 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

Yes it's called a bit of copper pipe stuffed up the inside of the
lead (might need flaring a bit) and a wiped joint done. A real
plumber would have the skills to do that but I doubt many modern
"plumbers" do.

There are modern simple fittings to join lead to copper or maybe even
lead to polypipe. Provided the latter has an insert fitted as the
connector will be compression.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

In article , Cynic
wrote:
Doesn't sound much of a plumber if he can't reshape lead sufficient to
allow a seal to one of the available soft seal compression joints. (Most
would have sweated a joint and said nothing)

Particularly since a "plumber" is someone who uses lead.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

Roland Perry formulated the question :
Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

What I have seen done, is a short section of tinned copper pipe pushed
into the lead, then a solder joint wiped between the copper and the
lead. Copper is then easy to adapt to polypipe.

Can you wipe a lead joint? Idea is to just heat the lead up to the
plastic stage, before it melts.

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

On 30/04/2020 08:40, Andy Burns wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:

House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

Maybe the plumber has run out of moleskin?

Yup! A *real* plumber would bell out the end of the lead and make a
sweated joint to a short length of 22 mm copper. I wonder if they have
to use lead-free solder for that these days?

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 08:19:24 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

Yes it's called a bit of copper pipe stuffed up the inside of the
lead (might need flaring a bit) and a wiped joint done. A real
plumber would have the skills to do that but I doubt many modern
"plumbers" do.

There are modern simple fittings to join lead to copper or maybe even
lead to polypipe. Provided the latter has an insert fitted as the
connector will be compression.

I've done a wiped joint from lead to a brass tube intended for the
purpose (with a compression joint at the other end). Didn't look very
stylish - I used wet rags rather than moleskin - but stayed waterproof.
So it can't be that hard.

However in the OP's case it sounds as though MDPE to the stopcock would
be the most reliable thing to do.

Parenthetically, my old underground plastic pipe was black, I think blue
is relatively recent innovation.


--

Roger Hayter

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

newshound wrote:

On 30/04/2020 08:40, Andy Burns wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:

House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

Maybe the plumber has run out of moleskin?

Yup! A *real* plumber would bell out the end of the lead and make a
sweated joint to a short length of 22 mm copper. I wonder if they have
to use lead-free solder for that these days?

You don't use solder. You use special bits of lead. Whether this is an
alloy rather then pure lead I don't know, but it's not solder as
generally found. Let alone lead free!

--

Roger Hayter

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

On 30/04/2020 08:19:24, Roland Perry wrote:
House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

I have seen a plumber file the lead into a near perfect circle and then
used a Lead-Loc compression fitting.

As others have said, I would be tempted to sweat a copper pipe into the
lead pipe.

Drill a 15mm hole into the lead and solder. If there are any concerns
over heating, then heat just the copper and allow the heat to travel
naturally along into the lead.

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

On 30/04/2020 09:43, Cynic wrote:
Doesn't sound much of a plumber if he can't reshape lead sufficient to allow a seal to one of the available soft seal compression joints. (Most would have sweated a joint and said nothing)


Is sweating legal now for potable water supplies? I thought it had been
banned quite some time ago.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

On 30/04/2020 10:54, Fredxx wrote:
On 30/04/2020 08:19:24, Roland Perry wrote:
House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

I have seen a plumber file the lead into a near perfect circle and then
used a Lead-Loc compression fitting.

As others have said, I would be tempted to sweat a copper pipe into the
lead pipe.

Drill a 15mm hole into the lead and solder. If there are any concerns
over heating, then heat just the copper and allow the heat to travel
naturally along into the lead.

Years ago, I saw a plumber join a short section of copper pipe (1/2" or
15 mm) to a lead main and 'wipe' the joint, it was a true work of art.
He then added a normal compression stop cock.

It isn't something I'd try myself ;-)



--

https://www.unitedway.org/our-impact...an-trafficking

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 08:19:24 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

Yes it's called a bit of copper pipe stuffed up the inside of the
lead (might need flaring a bit) and a wiped joint done. A real
plumber would have the skills to do that but I doubt many modern
"plumbers" do.

There are modern simple fittings to join lead to copper or maybe even
lead to polypipe. Provided the latter has an insert fitted as the
connector will be compression.

I've done a wiped joint from lead to a brass tube intended for the
purpose (with a compression joint at the other end). Didn't look very
stylish - I used wet rags rather than moleskin - but stayed waterproof.
So it can't be that hard.

However in the OP's case it sounds as though MDPE to the stopcock would
be the most reliable thing to do.

Parenthetically, my old underground plastic pipe was black, I think blue
is relatively recent innovation.

Yes, almost certainly. When I put a waterpipe in our garden about 40 years
ago, black was all there was - and it was quite difficult to find a
stockist. It's still there and not leaking.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

Fredxx wrote:

I would be tempted to sweat a copper pipe into the lead pipe

Is this before or after the stop-cock?

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

Get a better plumber. He clearly has limited experience.

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

Roland Perry wrote in :

In message , at
01:43:05 on Thu, 30 Apr 2020, Cynic remarked:

Doesn't sound much of a plumber if he can't reshape lead sufficient to
allow a seal to one of the available soft seal compression joints.
(Most would have sweated a joint and said nothing)

Currently I don't have a choice as he's the subby nominated by the
builders. If I can make his job easier in the short term that's a win.

Perhaps one of the typical - "I can only fit what I have in my van"

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 10:44:48 +0100, Roger Hayter wrote:

Dave Liquorice wrote:

On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 08:19:24 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

Yes it's called a bit of copper pipe stuffed up the inside of the
lead (might need flaring a bit) and a wiped joint done. A real
plumber would have the skills to do that but I doubt many modern
"plumbers" do.

There are modern simple fittings to join lead to copper or maybe even
lead to polypipe. Provided the latter has an insert fitted as the
connector will be compression.

I've done a wiped joint from lead to a brass tube intended for the
purpose (with a compression joint at the other end). Didn't look very
stylish - I used wet rags rather than moleskin - but stayed waterproof.
So it can't be that hard.

However in the OP's case it sounds as though MDPE to the stopcock would
be the most reliable thing to do.

Parenthetically, my old underground plastic pipe was black, I think blue
is relatively recent innovation.

I don't know how recent - ours was replaced in '92 and is blue. That's only
28 years and a poster down-thread says black 40 years ago.
An Anglian Water chap said that MDPE is used because HDPE is too expensive -
this must have been 15+ years ago, so is the black pipe HDPE?
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

On 30/04/2020 08:19, Roland Perry wrote:

House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

There are a number of "transition" fittings available, that are designed
to connect to lead pipes and some other pipe type. They usually work
very well IME. Even if the pipe is a bit misshapen, there ought to be a
bit of the run where one will be useable.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

That is the traditional (and now deprecated) way of doing it. Its
called a "wiped joint". You would start by cutting and cleaning up the
lead, then splaying the end a little bit so that a stub of copper pipe
could be stuffed up the end of it. The whole joint was then fluxed up,
and pre heated - but not enough to melt the lead pipe.

You could then add solder from a bar of plumbers solder (i.e. non
eutectic alloy with a wide temperature range between fully solid and
fully liquid) using the blowtorch mostly on the solder, or it could be
splashed on from a preheated crucible of it. The final stage was to
manually "wipe" it into the right shape and form, using a cloth pad or
wooded stick, covered in tallow.

[My preference is to polypipe all the way to the water meter in the
pavement, but that involves digging up (and reinstating) rather a lot of
concrete path. As well as presumably getting the Water Company
involved.]

ps The water company previously tested the potable supply for lead, and
declared it so low it probably wasn't a lead pipe anyway. Ho Hum

If its a hard water area, the lead tends to acquire a yellow/orange
coating on the inside that isolates it from direct contact with the
water anyway.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

On 30/04/2020 10:52, Roger Hayter wrote:
newshound wrote:

On 30/04/2020 08:40, Andy Burns wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:

House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

Maybe the plumber has run out of moleskin?

Yup! A *real* plumber would bell out the end of the lead and make a
sweated joint to a short length of 22 mm copper. I wonder if they have
to use lead-free solder for that these days?

You don't use solder. You use special bits of lead. Whether this is an
alloy rather then pure lead I don't know, but it's not solder as
generally found. Let alone lead free!

It specifically needs to be a proper old school plumbers solder
(typically something like an 80/20 lead/tin alloy).

That is well away from the eutectic point and so has a wide temperature
range between solid and fully liquid. It gives plenty of working time
while its in a "plastic" state, and can be tooled into shape.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

John Rumm wrote:

On 30/04/2020 10:52, Roger Hayter wrote:
newshound wrote:

On 30/04/2020 08:40, Andy Burns wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:

House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

Maybe the plumber has run out of moleskin?

Yup! A *real* plumber would bell out the end of the lead and make a
sweated joint to a short length of 22 mm copper. I wonder if they have
to use lead-free solder for that these days?

You don't use solder. You use special bits of lead. Whether this is an
alloy rather then pure lead I don't know, but it's not solder as
generally found. Let alone lead free!

It specifically needs to be a proper old school plumbers solder
(typically something like an 80/20 lead/tin alloy).

That is well away from the eutectic point and so has a wide temperature
range between solid and fully liquid. It gives plenty of working time
while its in a "plastic" state, and can be tooled into shape.

Thanks for the correction. On reflection, I have no doubt that is what
the plumbers' merchant gave me! And of course it is used to create a
3D shape rather then just forming a layer between two mechanically
interlocked objects. Although the joined pipes do have to overlap,
whether both or only one is lead, AFAIK. Was the same alloy used to
join two lead pipes?

--

Roger Hayter

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

On 30/04/2020 08:19, Roland Perry wrote:
House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

[My preference is to polypipe all the way to the water meter in the
pavement, but that involves digging up (and reinstating) rather a lot of
concrete path. As well as presumably getting the Water Company
involved.]

ps The water company previously tested the potable supply for lead, and
declared it so low it probably wasn't a lead pipe anyway. Ho Hum.

My dad used to be proud of his ability to make a "wiped joint" - this
was a long time ago but I think he hammered a wooden cone into the end
of the lead pipe (to make it circular and flared) then soldered a copper
pipe into the flared section of lead. Perhaps a modern plumber doesn't
know how to do it ...

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

On 30/04/2020 15:12, Roger Hayter wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

On 30/04/2020 10:52, Roger Hayter wrote:
newshound wrote:

On 30/04/2020 08:40, Andy Burns wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:

House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

Maybe the plumber has run out of moleskin?

Yup! A *real* plumber would bell out the end of the lead and make a
sweated joint to a short length of 22 mm copper. I wonder if they have
to use lead-free solder for that these days?

You don't use solder. You use special bits of lead. Whether this is an
alloy rather then pure lead I don't know, but it's not solder as
generally found. Let alone lead free!

It specifically needs to be a proper old school plumbers solder
(typically something like an 80/20 lead/tin alloy).

That is well away from the eutectic point and so has a wide temperature
range between solid and fully liquid. It gives plenty of working time
while its in a "plastic" state, and can be tooled into shape.

Thanks for the correction. On reflection, I have no doubt that is what
the plumbers' merchant gave me! And of course it is used to create a
3D shape rather then just forming a layer between two mechanically
interlocked objects. Although the joined pipes do have to overlap,
whether both or only one is lead, AFAIK. Was the same alloy used to
join two lead pipes?

Yes, or to repair a split or a hole.

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

On 30/04/2020 14:03, John Rumm wrote:
On 30/04/2020 08:19, Roland Perry wrote:

House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

There are a number of "transition" fittings available, that are designed
to connect to lead pipes and some other pipe type. They usually work
very well IME. Even if the pipe is a bit misshapen, there ought to be a
bit of the run where one will be useable.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

That is the traditional (and now deprecated) way of doing it. Its called
a "wiped joint". You would start by cutting and cleaning up the lead,
then splaying the end a little bit so that a stub of copper pipe could
be stuffed up the end of it. The whole joint was then fluxed up, and pre
heated - but not enough to melt the lead pipe.

You could then add solder from a bar of plumbers solder (i.e. non
eutectic alloy with a wide temperature range between fully solid and
fully liquid) using the blowtorch mostly on the solder, or it could be
splashed on from a preheated crucible of it. The final stage was to
manually "wipe" it into the right shape and form, using a cloth pad or
wooded stick, covered in tallow.


The cloth pad being known as "moleskin", as originally mentioned by Andy
Burns.

I wonder why it is deprecated, though. Arguably more reliable, if done
properly, than this new fangled plastic and O-ring stuff that barely
lasts 50 years.

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

On 30/04/2020 15:38, newshound wrote:
On 30/04/2020 14:03, John Rumm wrote:
On 30/04/2020 08:19, Roland Perry wrote:

House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

There are a number of "transition" fittings available, that are
designed to connect to lead pipes and some other pipe type. They
usually work very well IME. Even if the pipe is a bit misshapen, there
ought to be a bit of the run where one will be useable.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

That is the traditional (and now deprecated) way of doing it. Its
called a "wiped joint". You would start by cutting and cleaning up the
lead, then splaying the end a little bit so that a stub of copper pipe
could be stuffed up the end of it. The whole joint was then fluxed up,
and pre heated - but not enough to melt the lead pipe.

You could then add solder from a bar of plumbers solder (i.e. non
eutectic alloy with a wide temperature range between fully solid and
fully liquid) using the blowtorch mostly on the solder, or it could be
splashed on from a preheated crucible of it. The final stage was to
manually "wipe" it into the right shape and form, using a cloth pad or
wooded stick, covered in tallow.


The cloth pad being known as "moleskin", as originally mentioned by Andy
Burns.

I wonder why it is deprecated, though. Arguably more reliable, if done
properly, than this new fangled plastic and O-ring stuff that barely
lasts 50 years.

AIUI ever more focus on lead contamination in potable water supplies:
new regulations last century effectively banned the addition of lead
anywhere in them - pipe or fittings. I think you can still use it for
other water supplies.

I'll defer to others on whether it can still be used to create wiped
joints on lead sheathed cables (as here and in many houses). But I doubt
Adam would like to let many of his apprentices loose with torches and
molten metal.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

On 30/04/2020 15:12, Roger Hayter wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

On 30/04/2020 10:52, Roger Hayter wrote:
newshound wrote:

On 30/04/2020 08:40, Andy Burns wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:

House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

Maybe the plumber has run out of moleskin?

Yup! A *real* plumber would bell out the end of the lead and make a
sweated joint to a short length of 22 mm copper. I wonder if they have
to use lead-free solder for that these days?

You don't use solder. You use special bits of lead. Whether this is an
alloy rather then pure lead I don't know, but it's not solder as
generally found. Let alone lead free!

It specifically needs to be a proper old school plumbers solder
(typically something like an 80/20 lead/tin alloy).

That is well away from the eutectic point and so has a wide temperature
range between solid and fully liquid. It gives plenty of working time
while its in a "plastic" state, and can be tooled into shape.

Thanks for the correction. On reflection, I have no doubt that is what
the plumbers' merchant gave me! And of course it is used to create a
3D shape rather then just forming a layer between two mechanically
interlocked objects. Although the joined pipes do have to overlap,
whether both or only one is lead, AFAIK. Was the same alloy used to
join two lead pipes?

IIUC, yup...

I think the only time you would try to actually "weld" lead (i.e. using
just lead as a filler rather than solder), is when lead "burning"[1].

Having tin in the alloy lowers the melting point to below that of the
pure lead.

[1] Typically on roof work etc, where you are in effect welding up seams
using a very fine torch flame to soften the base metal (but not too
much!), melt in the filler (same stuff, but smaller volume), and get it
all to fuse nicely, while trying to avoid ending up with a big molten mess!


--
Cheers,

John.

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| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
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\================================================= ================/

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

On 30/04/2020 15:38, newshound wrote:

The cloth pad being known as "moleskin", as originally mentioned by Andy
Burns.

I wonder why it is deprecated, though. Arguably more reliable, if done
properly, than this new fangled plastic and O-ring stuff that barely
lasts 50 years.

Probably a combination of not wanting to introduce any new lead into the
wholesome water supply, and also deskilling the job to a point where
reliable joints can be made nearly first time every time by plumbers not
schooled in lead work (which will likely be most these days).

(you see much the same in other building trades - like preferring joist
hangers over more intricate and skilled joinery techniques)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 30/04/2020 15:38, newshound wrote:

The cloth pad being known as "moleskin", as originally mentioned by Andy
Burns.

I wonder why it is deprecated, though. Arguably more reliable, if done
properly, than this new fangled plastic and O-ring stuff that barely
lasts 50 years.

Probably a combination of not wanting to introduce any new lead into the
wholesome water supply, and also deskilling the job to a point where
reliable joints can be made nearly first time every time by plumbers not
schooled in lead work (which will likely be most these days).

like the 'plumber' who fitted out our Utility Room and didn't put the inner
sleevs on the main pipes. A year later we noticed all the mdf was swelling.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

On 30/04/2020 08:19, Roland Perry wrote:
[My preference is to polypipe all the way to the water meter in the
pavement, but that involves digging up (and reinstating) rather a lot of
concrete path. As well as presumably getting the Water Company
involved.]

Which is what I did as part of a major refurb.
The water company (SE Water) didn't want to know, said it was my
problem. My builders dug the trench, the plumber replaced the whole run.

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

In message , at 09:26:22 on Fri, 1 May
2020, Mark Carver remarked:
On 30/04/2020 08:19, Roland Perry wrote:
[My preference is to polypipe all the way to the water meter in the
pavement, but that involves digging up (and reinstating) rather a lot of
concrete path. As well as presumably getting the Water Company
involved.]

Which is what I did as part of a major refurb.
The water company (SE Water) didn't want to know, said it was my
problem. My builders dug the trench, the plumber replaced the whole run.

I'd have expected the water company to be interested in a least
supervising (on behalf of the highway authority) the couple of feet
between the front of my property and the water meter in the pavement.
At my expense, obviously!
--
Roland Perry

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

On Thursday, 30 April 2020 08:19:44 UTC+1, Roland Perry wrote:
House has old lead pipe water main. This needs extending (with polypipe)
to new position within kitchen extension.

Plumber says this is difficult if the old pipe isn't circular enough to
attach the connector he has in mind.

Isn't there a connector which could be soldered to the lead pipe side,
somewhat irrespective of its exact profile?

[My preference is to polypipe all the way to the water meter in the
pavement, but that involves digging up (and reinstating) rather a lot of
concrete path. As well as presumably getting the Water Company
involved.]

ps The water company previously tested the potable supply for lead, and
declared it so low it probably wasn't a lead pipe anyway. Ho Hum.
--
Roland Perry

Hi, You need to use a leadlock adapter to adapt lead pipe to copper first. Law prohibits 'sweating' lead to copper now so its the only way. You may have to ream the lead to make it round and file the outside to create a perfect fit to the deadlock adapter. N

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

On 01/05/2020 09:41, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 09:26:22 on Fri, 1
May 2020, Mark Carver remarked:
On 30/04/2020 08:19, Roland Perry wrote:
[My preference is to polypipe all the way to the water meter in the
pavement, but that involves digging up (and reinstating) rather a
lot of
concrete path. As well as presumably getting the Water Company
involved.]

Which is what I did as part of a major refurb.
The water company (SE Water) didn't want to know, said it was my
problem. My builders dug the trench, the plumber replaced the whole run.

I'd have expected the water company to be interested in a least
supervising (on behalf of the highway authority) the couple of feet
between the front of my property and the water meter in the pavement.
At my expense, obviously!

That's what I thought too, but they couldn't give a monkey's. Although
in my case, the water meter is a good 3 metres away from the highway

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

In message , at 14:22:26 on Fri, 1 May
2020, Mark Carver remarked:

I'd have expected the water company to be interested in a least
supervising (on behalf of the highway authority) the couple of feet
between the front of my property and the water meter in the pavement.
At my expense, obviously!

That's what I thought too, but they couldn't give a monkey's. Although
in my case, the water meter is a good 3 metres away from the highway

So you weren't digging up the highway??

QED.
--
Roland Perry

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

In message , at
02:14:48 on Fri, 1 May 2020, remarked:

Hi, You need to use a leadlock adapter to adapt lead pipe to copper
first. Law prohibits 'sweating' lead to copper now so its the only way.
You may have to ream the lead to make it round and file the outside to
create a perfect fit to the deadlock adapter. N

Thanks for that, I'll mention it to the plumber next week, and see what
he says.
--
Roland Perry

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

On 01/05/2020 10:14:48, wrote:

snip

Law prohibits 'sweating' lead to copper now so its the only way.

Since when if you're using lead free solder?

Or indeed leaded for any non-potable application.

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

On 01/05/2020 15:13, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 14:22:26 on Fri, 1
May 2020, Mark Carver remarked:

I'd have expected the water company to be interested in a least
supervising (on behalf of the highway authority) the couple of feet
between the front of my property and the water meter in the pavement.
At my expense, obviously!

That's what I thought too, but they couldn't give a monkey's.
Although in my case, the water meter is a good 3 metres away from the
highway

So you weren't digging up the highway??

Nope, not even a pavement, the water meter is under a hedge

Connecting polypipe to lead pipe
 

Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 09:26:22 on Fri, 1 May
2020, Mark Carver remarked:
On 30/04/2020 08:19, Roland Perry wrote:
[My preference is to polypipe all the way to the water meter in the
pavement, but that involves digging up (and reinstating) rather a lot of
concrete path. As well as presumably getting the Water Company
involved.]

Which is what I did as part of a major refurb.
The water company (SE Water) didn't want to know, said it was my
problem. My builders dug the trench, the plumber replaced the whole run.

I'd have expected the water company to be interested in a least
supervising (on behalf of the highway authority) the couple of feet
between the front of my property and the water meter in the pavement.
At my expense, obviously!

I don't think the water company will care at all, but the highway
authority might do if your road is at all busy. If it isn't then
someone might difg a couple of feet ignoring the rules about getting
permission. But I would light it at night if it can't be done in a day.
--

Roger Hayter