I have a standard mains gas boiler ..... Baxi Barcelona

Considering changing this, need 30kW heat output ...... an option would
be Worcester Greenstar 30Ri or the 8000Life

Though could just get another Baxi .... 430 or 630 HEAT


Is the Worcester worth 25%+ premium ? ...... I know it is 4% more
efficient

On 24/03/2020 16:17, rick wrote:
I have a standard mains gas boiler ..... Baxi Barcelona

Considering changing this, need 30kW heat output ...... an option would
be Worcester Greenstar 30RiÂ* or the 8000Life

Though could just get another Baxi .... 430 or 630 HEAT


Is the Worcester worth 25%+ premium ? ......Â* I know it is 4% more
efficient

I had a WB Greenstar 24Si fitted 6months back replacing a 31yr old
Potterton Netaheat Electronic 16-22. Had the dudes fit a WB Filter at
the same time which gives me a 10 year parts & labour warranty as long
as I have it serviced to WB standards every year.

Expensive but it is a lot smaller than the Potterton and stunningly
quiet in operation. Having a pressurised CH system has fixed the never
ending airlocks I had before. All rads get hot all of the time!

On 24/03/2020 16:26, mm0fmf wrote:
On 24/03/2020 16:17, rick wrote:
I have a standard mains gas boiler ..... Baxi Barcelona

Considering changing this, need 30kW heat output ...... an option
would be Worcester Greenstar 30RiÂ* or the 8000Life

Though could just get another Baxi .... 430 or 630 HEAT


Is the Worcester worth 25%+ premium ? ......Â* I know it is 4% more
efficient

I had a WB Greenstar 24Si fitted 6months back replacing a 31yr old
Potterton Netaheat Electronic 16-22. Had the dudes fit a WB Filter at
the same time which gives me a 10 year parts & labour warranty as long
as I have it serviced to WB standards every year.

Expensive but it is a lot smaller than the Potterton and stunningly
quiet in operation. Having a pressurised CH system has fixed the never
ending airlocks I had before. All rads get hot all of the time!



Quick look (not best price)
Baxi 630 is around £930
Worcester 8000 Life is around £1190

On 24/03/2020 20:04, rick wrote:
On 24/03/2020 16:26, mm0fmf wrote:
On 24/03/2020 16:17, rick wrote:
I have a standard mains gas boiler ..... Baxi Barcelona

Considering changing this, need 30kW heat output ...... an option
would be Worcester Greenstar 30RiÂ* or the 8000Life

Though could just get another Baxi .... 430 or 630 HEAT


Is the Worcester worth 25%+ premium ? ......Â* I know it is 4% more
efficient

I had a WB Greenstar 24Si fitted 6months back replacing a 31yr old
Potterton Netaheat Electronic 16-22. Had the dudes fit a WB Filter at
the same time which gives me a 10 year parts & labour warranty as long
as I have it serviced to WB standards every year.

Expensive but it is a lot smaller than the Potterton and stunningly
quiet in operation. Having a pressurised CH system has fixed the never
ending airlocks I had before. All rads get hot all of the time!



Quick lookÂ* (not best price)
Baxi 630Â* is around £930
Worcester 8000 Life is around £1190

Worcester and Vaillant generally regarded as best for reliability.

On Tuesday, 24 March 2020 21:16:22 UTC, newshound wrote:

Worcester and Vaillant generally regarded as best for reliability.

In the same way that VW cars are generaly regarded as being reliable. That's the power of marketing.

On 25/03/2020 10:10, David wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 March 2020 21:16:22 UTC, newshound wrote:

Worcester and Vaillant generally regarded as best for reliability.

In the same way that VW cars are generaly regarded as being reliable. That's the power of marketing.

But VW (VAG) cars aren't regarded as reliable. And it's years and years
since "if only everything in life was as reliable as a Volkswagen" or
"very tough as old boots" were marketing phrases.

Certainly wont be as bad as the Ferrolli that was in my son's house.

On Wednesday, 25 March 2020 11:22:01 UTC, mm0fmf wrote:
On 25/03/2020 10:10, David wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 March 2020 21:16:22 UTC, newshound wrote:

Worcester and Vaillant generally regarded as best for reliability.

In the same way that VW cars are generaly regarded as being reliable. That's the power of marketing.

But VW (VAG) cars aren't regarded as reliable. And it's years and years
since "if only everything in life was as reliable as a Volkswagen" or
"very tough as old boots" were marketing phrases.

Certainly wont be as bad as the Ferrolli that was in my son's house.

It's difficult to buy a truly bad new car these days, just as it's difficult to buy a truly bad boiler. Pretty much all cars and pretty much all boilers are fine.

I think most people do regard VW cars as reliable, which is fair enough because they are. I think they're no more reliable than an average car though..

The same is true for WB boilers. They're OK, the widely-published adverts say how great they are, and they are backed by a huge fleet of service and repair technicians

For someone who wants a boiler that is above average reliability, due to its inherent design, an InterGas is the one to go for. See a current thread here, for example: https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/n...choice.541487/ UK-built, too. But you won't see many InterGas repair vans driving around, and their marketing budget can't approach the size of Worcester Bosch's...

In article , David
wrote:

The same is true for WB boilers. They're OK, the widely-published
adverts say how great they are, and they are backed by a huge fleet of
service and repair technicians

If they're that great why do they need a huge fleet of back up people?

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

In article ,
David wrote:
It's difficult to buy a truly bad new car these days, just as it's
difficult to buy a truly bad boiler. Pretty much all cars and pretty
much all boilers are fine.

Be interesting to know the average lifespan and number of breakdowns etc.
Saving a few quid on purchase costs may be poor value if it need lots of
repairs and early replacement.

That's the sort of data Which should be able to get from its members.

--
*When you've seen one shopping centre you've seen a mall*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 25/03/2020 15:21, charles wrote:
In article , David
wrote:

The same is true for WB boilers. They're OK, the widely-published
adverts say how great they are, and they are backed by a huge fleet of
service and repair technicians

If they're that great why do they need a huge fleet of back up people?

Stop teasing. You know WB would need a huge fleet if even just in 1 in
100 of their boilers went wrong each year but they had 10,000,000
installed. Just as you'd probably never see an Intergas van if 1 in 20
went wrong each year but they only had 10,000 installed. (And then
there's the question if Intergas even have staff or contractors with
branded vans.)

Of course there's also the fact that for some reason Intergas don't do
well in Which? surveys of reliability.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

David wrote
mm0fmf wrote
David wrote
newshound wrote

In the same way that VW cars are generaly regarded
as being reliable. That's the power of marketing.

But VW (VAG) cars aren't regarded as reliable. And it's years and
years since "if only everything in life was as reliable as a Volkswagen"
or "very tough as old boots" were marketing phrases.

Certainly wont be as bad as the Ferrolli that was in my son's house.

It's difficult to buy a truly bad new car these days,

No it isnt. Just ask Adam about how
often his work Fiat needs work.

Pretty much all cars and pretty much all boilers are fine.

But there are some duds like Fiat.

I think most people do regard VW cars as reliable,
which is fair enough because they are.

Depends on what you mean by reliable. The current
Golf does in fact have quite a reputation for bits like
door handles etc coming off. Its well known that
that got much worse than with the Mark 1 Golf.

I think they're no more reliable than an average car though.

In fact not as reliable as my Hyundai Getz which never
had even one warranty claim, and no failures at all in 13
years. There is currently some problem with the windscreen
wiper water tank but I havent got around to working out
what the problem is, whether the tank has split or what.

The Mark 1 Golf had a significant number of warranty
claims, including a head gasket and later had some
other failures like the alternator diode block, distributor
rotor, indicator relay, failed speedo cable, failed bonnet
release etc.

The previous 1300 Beetle had fewer problems, again
bought new, but I didnt keep it for all that long. I had
a ****ing great alsatian that loved to have his head out
of the window when driving around in the car and in
summer the bugger used to slobber all down the
back of my neck. I got the Golf because that gave
him is own window and fixed that problem.

On Thu, 26 Mar 2020 03:54:05 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH senile asshole's troll****

03:54??? ANY idea when you'll go back to bed, you sleepless trolling
86-year-old asshole?

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 86-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

Intergas boilers are about the most reliable.

On Wednesday, 25 March 2020 14:56:53 UTC, David wrote:
On Wednesday, 25 March 2020 11:22:01 UTC, mm0fmf wrote:
On 25/03/2020 10:10, David wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 March 2020 21:16:22 UTC, newshound wrote:

Worcester and Vaillant generally regarded as best for reliability.

In the same way that VW cars are generaly regarded as being reliable. That's the power of marketing.

But VW (VAG) cars aren't regarded as reliable. And it's years and years
since "if only everything in life was as reliable as a Volkswagen" or
"very tough as old boots" were marketing phrases.

Certainly wont be as bad as the Ferrolli that was in my son's house.

It's difficult to buy a truly bad new car these days, just as it's difficult to buy a truly bad boiler. Pretty much all cars and pretty much all boilers are fine.

I think most people do regard VW cars as reliable, which is fair enough because they are. I think they're no more reliable than an average car though.

The same is true for WB boilers. They're OK, the widely-published adverts say how great they are, and they are backed by a huge fleet of service and repair technicians

For someone who wants a boiler that is above average reliability, due to its inherent design, an InterGas is the one to go for. See a current thread here, for example: https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/n...choice.541487/ UK-built, too. But you won't see many InterGas repair vans driving around, and their marketing budget can't approach the size of Worcester Bosch's...

Intergas use service agents, few of their own people. So no vans with their logo on the side.

On Wednesday, 25 March 2020 14:56:53 UTC, David wrote:
On Wednesday, 25 March 2020 11:22:01 UTC, mm0fmf wrote:
On 25/03/2020 10:10, David wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 March 2020 21:16:22 UTC, newshound wrote:

Worcester and Vaillant generally regarded as best for reliability.

In the same way that VW cars are generaly regarded as being reliable. That's the power of marketing.

But VW (VAG) cars aren't regarded as reliable. And it's years and years
since "if only everything in life was as reliable as a Volkswagen" or
"very tough as old boots" were marketing phrases.

Certainly wont be as bad as the Ferrolli that was in my son's house.

It's difficult to buy a truly bad new car these days, just as it's difficult to buy a truly bad boiler. Pretty much all cars and pretty much all boilers are fine.

I think most people do regard VW cars as reliable, which is fair enough because they are. I think they're no more reliable than an average car though.

The same is true for WB boilers. They're OK, the widely-published adverts say how great they are, and they are backed by a huge fleet of service and repair technicians

For someone who wants a boiler that is above average reliability, due to its inherent design, an InterGas is the one to go for. See a current thread here, for example: https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/n...choice.541487/ UK-built, too. But you won't see many InterGas repair vans driving around, and their marketing budget can't approach the size of Worcester Bosch's...


Intergas are Dutch, not made in the UK. They were expanding, not able make enough boilers for the demand, needing larger facilities. Why they are smallish in the UK. They are not pushed relying on reputation. They have had fitted around 100,000 boilers in the UK, including initially being rebadged as the Atmos. They have just been taken over by American HVAC giant Rheem, who in turn are owned by Paloma of Japan. Expect marketing money to come when production increases. They aim to hit the increasing US and Canadian market.

On Thursday, 9 April 2020 01:18:48 UTC+1, John wrote:
Intergas are Dutch, not made in the UK.

I stand corrected. Thanks For the background info.

On 25 Mar 2020 at 16:23:05 GMT, ""Dave Plowman" News)"
wrote:

In article ,
David wrote:
It's difficult to buy a truly bad new car these days, just as it's
difficult to buy a truly bad boiler. Pretty much all cars and pretty
much all boilers are fine.

Be interesting to know the average lifespan and number of breakdowns etc.
Saving a few quid on purchase costs may be poor value if it need lots of
repairs and early replacement.

That's the sort of data Which should be able to get from its members.

They do a general survey - 9000 households, 200 engineers. Top 5 Worcester,
Vaillant, Viessmann, Potterton and Ideal. Bottom 3 - Headline, Ferroli and
Biasi (same for engineers and households).

--
Cheers, Rob

On Thursday, 9 April 2020 08:29:24 UTC+1, RJH wrote:
On 25 Mar 2020 at 16:23:05 GMT, ""Dave Plowman" News)"
wrote:

In article ,
David wrote:
It's difficult to buy a truly bad new car these days, just as it's
difficult to buy a truly bad boiler. Pretty much all cars and pretty
much all boilers are fine.

Be interesting to know the average lifespan and number of breakdowns etc.
Saving a few quid on purchase costs may be poor value if it need lots of
repairs and early replacement.

That's the sort of data Which should be able to get from its members.

They do a general survey - 9000 households, 200 engineers. Top 5 Worcester,
Vaillant, Viessmann, Potterton and Ideal. Bottom 3 - Headline, Ferroli and
Biasi (same for engineers and households).

Depends on the data and criteria they use - sometimes service call outs are taken into account, rather than just the quality of the appliance. The best quality boilers on the market, that all those in the heating industry (not plumbers) would agree on a Intergas, ATAG (both Dutch who invented the condensing boiler) and Navien. Navien are Koran who are the biggest boiler manufacturers in the world - been available in the UK for about 5-7 years. Viessmann are below them, who have recently dropped in quality. The rest lag way behind the top three with Worcester Bosch, Ideal, Baxi and Vaillant way overpriced for what they are.

Navien have advanced designs with even touch control user panels with also great touches like taking the outside temperature for weather compensation from satellites, so no wire to a sensor on the north side of a building. Their stainless double pass heat exchangers do not need cleaning. The latest Intergas and Navien boilers modulate way down low, to under 3kw. When on an Opentherm thermostat (really a sensor not an on-off stat), the burner modulates to the demands of the building. Only when the demand is below 3kW, or lower, will any burner cycling occur; by then the building will be up temperature anyhow with heating off.

On 09/04/2020 11:49, John wrote:
On Thursday, 9 April 2020 08:29:24 UTC+1, RJH wrote:
On 25 Mar 2020 at 16:23:05 GMT, ""Dave Plowman" News)"
wrote:

In article ,
David wrote:
It's difficult to buy a truly bad new car these days, just as it's
difficult to buy a truly bad boiler. Pretty much all cars and pretty
much all boilers are fine.

Be interesting to know the average lifespan and number of breakdowns etc.
Saving a few quid on purchase costs may be poor value if it need lots of
repairs and early replacement.

That's the sort of data Which should be able to get from its members.

They do a general survey - 9000 households, 200 engineers. Top 5 Worcester,
Vaillant, Viessmann, Potterton and Ideal. Bottom 3 - Headline, Ferroli and
Biasi (same for engineers and households).

Depends on the data and criteria they use - sometimes service call outs are taken into account, rather than just the quality of the appliance. The best quality boilers on the market, that all those in the heating industry (not plumbers) would agree on a Intergas, ATAG (both Dutch who invented the condensing boiler) and Navien. Navien are Koran who are the biggest boiler manufacturers in the world - been available in the UK for about 5-7 years. Viessmann are below them, who have recently dropped in quality. The rest lag way behind the top three with Worcester Bosch, Ideal, Baxi and Vaillant way overpriced for what they are.

Navien have advanced designs with even touch control user panels with also great touches like taking the outside temperature for weather compensation from satellites, so no wire to a sensor on the north side of a building. Their stainless double pass heat exchangers do not need cleaning. The latest Intergas and Navien boilers modulate way down low, to under 3kw. When on an Opentherm thermostat (really a sensor not an on-off stat), the burner modulates to the demands of the building. Only when the demand is below 3kW, or lower, will any burner cycling occur; by then the building will be up temperature anyhow with heating off.





We've got a Worcester. It must be about 14 years old.

We've had one major issue- fixed either under warranty or the service
contract, I'm not sure which, there was another minor problem but I
think that was related to the other one. At the last regular check up,
the engineer who we see almost every year and have got to know a bit,
commented it was as good as new. Certainly it seems to work well enough.

The major issue was a leak in the heat exchanger- quite early on. The
minor issue was the condensation trap- from memory it become distorted
and leaked.

We have a 'whole system' service contract. It saves any hassle. The odd
other thing has failed (other that the boiler) and they have turned up,
fixed it, without any fuss. When they repaired the heat exchanger, they
replaced the lockshield valves as the old ones which were a bit naff and
fitted thermostatic valves where I wanted them.

In article ,
John wrote:
Depends on the data and criteria they use - sometimes service call outs
are taken into account, rather than just the quality of the appliance.
The best quality boilers on the market, that all those in the heating
industry (not plumbers) would agree on a Intergas, ATAG (both Dutch
who invented the condensing boiler) and Navien. Navien are Koran who are
the biggest boiler manufacturers in the world - been available in the UK
for about 5-7 years. Viessmann are below them, who have recently dropped
in quality. The rest lag way behind the top three with Worcester Bosch,
Ideal, Baxi and Vaillant way overpriced for what they are.

Navien have advanced designs with even touch control user panels with
also great touches like taking the outside temperature for weather
compensation from satellites, so no wire to a sensor on the north side
of a building. Their stainless double pass heat exchangers do not need
cleaning. The latest Intergas and Navien boilers modulate way down low,
to under 3kw. When on an Opentherm thermostat (really a sensor not an
on-off stat), the burner modulates to the demands of the building. Only
when the demand is below 3kW, or lower, will any burner cycling occur;
by then the building will be up temperature anyhow with heating off.

Interesting. I chose a Veissmann some 12 years ago, based on reports here
and elsewhere. Not regretted the choice. Was impressed with the build
quality on the one repair it's needed in this time. Things like the PCB
including fuses on all the outputs. Even although they're soldered in, and
not something the average repair man would fix.

Spares are pricey, but availability and delivery very good.

Only real complaint is the user interface. Setting up things like the
weather compensation. Which I'd hoped would be addressed on later models
by doing it all via your phone or PC, rather than fiddly multi function
buttons on the programmer. But I think par for the course at that time.

Shame if they've dropped back in the pecking order. I did a self install,
and the human on the other end of the help line couldn't have been more
helpful. He was obviously an engineer, rather than just a phone advisor,
who had to look everything up.

--
*Certain frogs can be frozen solid, then thawed, and survive *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
We've had one major issue- fixed either under warranty or the service
contract, I'm not sure which, there was another minor problem but I
think that was related to the other one. At the last regular check up,
the engineer who we see almost every year and have got to know a bit,
commented it was as good as new. Certainly it seems to work well enough.

Seem odd to pay a great deal of money to be told everything is OK once a
year? ;-)

--
*Suicidal twin kills sister by mistake.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 09/04/2020 13:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
We've had one major issue- fixed either under warranty or the service
contract, I'm not sure which, there was another minor problem but I
think that was related to the other one. At the last regular check up,
the engineer who we see almost every year and have got to know a bit,
commented it was as good as new. Certainly it seems to work well enough.

Seem odd to pay a great deal of money to be told everything is OK once a
year? ;-)


We don't think so and its our money. In the scheme of things it isn't a
'great deal of money' - a couple of meals out.

On Thursday, 9 April 2020 12:47:23 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John wrote:
Depends on the data and criteria they use - sometimes service call outs
are taken into account, rather than just the quality of the appliance.
The best quality boilers on the market, that all those in the heating
industry (not plumbers) would agree on a Intergas, ATAG (both Dutch
who invented the condensing boiler) and Navien. Navien are Koran who are
the biggest boiler manufacturers in the world - been available in the UK
for about 5-7 years. Viessmann are below them, who have recently dropped
in quality. The rest lag way behind the top three with Worcester Bosch,
Ideal, Baxi and Vaillant way overpriced for what they are.

Navien have advanced designs with even touch control user panels with
also great touches like taking the outside temperature for weather
compensation from satellites, so no wire to a sensor on the north side
of a building. Their stainless double pass heat exchangers do not need
cleaning. The latest Intergas and Navien boilers modulate way down low,
to under 3kw. When on an Opentherm thermostat (really a sensor not an
on-off stat), the burner modulates to the demands of the building. Only
when the demand is below 3kW, or lower, will any burner cycling occur;
by then the building will be up temperature anyhow with heating off.

Interesting. I chose a Veissmann some 12 years ago, based on reports here
and elsewhere. Not regretted the choice. Was impressed with the build
quality on the one repair it's needed in this time. Things like the PCB
including fuses on all the outputs. Even although they're soldered in, and
not something the average repair man would fix.

Spares are pricey, but availability and delivery very good.

Only real complaint is the user interface. Setting up things like the
weather compensation. Which I'd hoped would be addressed on later models
by doing it all via your phone or PC, rather than fiddly multi function
buttons on the programmer. But I think par for the course at that time.

Shame if they've dropped back in the pecking order. I did a self install,
and the human on the other end of the help line couldn't have been more
helpful. He was obviously an engineer, rather than just a phone advisor,
who had to look everything up.

Viessmann have flagged recently. The quality of the older models you can testify to. Pricey spare parts is not an issue with reliable boilers, as you rarely use them. The best by design is Intergas. The quality is high as well. The bi-thermal heat exchanger is flat being as big the casing, located at the back of the casing with all components at the front, being easy to get at the few component in the thing. The intergas is a two man lift it is so well made. The boiler was introduced in 1996 in Holland in response to a call for a simple, reliable, low maintenance, combi for the Dutch social housing market.

They listened to the servicemen to what they wanted as they were starting uncompromised from a clean sheet, they were not designing a boiler to be an assembled "kit" of of third party parts as most are. The Intergas Rapid is still basically the same 1996 boiler, which was "way ahead" of others at the time with weather compensation and Opentherm as standard and not overpriced either; Opentherm protocol is used extensively in Holland. They first came into the UK rebadged by a small UK company called Atmos - who also rebadged other makes. Sales were by reputation, then Intergas established themselves in the UK as manufacturing and UK demand increased. They have introduced a number of new models since, however the same heat exchanger design is used.

I believe Vaillant wanted to buy out Intergas to get their hands on the heat exchanger. They did talk about making the heat exchanger under licence. The Americans/Japanese beat them to it buying the company, which will still operate independently in Holland. Vaillant are still buying French Gianoni heat exchangers. Whether the heat exchanger will also be made elsewhere to meet Intergas' demand is yet to be seen.

Others makers have chunky heat exchangers, either square or round, the round French Gianoni is common in Vaillants, Baxi and others. These types are not a good fit inside the casing, leaving wasted space around them. Subsequently, when manufacturers make combis (the biggest market) they have to squeeze in a plate heat exchanger, 3-way valve, pump and all the other pipework and sensors. This makes servicing difficult in that common fail components have to be removed to get at those behind - a big job to replace a small cheap component. Look at this on the Intergas design, the heat exchanger is all the back, what you need to get at is on the front. The whole front of the heat exchanger lifts off by removing 10 bolts to clean:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nHjm19Oi6I

The boiler for advanced electronics is Navien. They even coat the pcb with a plastic coating in case water gets on it.

I think it's the ATAG A325ECX combi that has integrated flue heat recovery in for DHW, which increases the DHW flowrate, and efficiency of course.

On Thursday, 9 April 2020 13:34:19 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
We've had one major issue- fixed either under warranty or the service
contract, I'm not sure which, there was another minor problem but I
think that was related to the other one. At the last regular check up,
the engineer who we see almost every year and have got to know a bit,
commented it was as good as new. Certainly it seems to work well enough.

Seem odd to pay a great deal of money to be told everything is OK once a
year? ;-)

Navien heat exchangers do not need cleaning. All self cleaning boilers need is flue gas sensors to determine of the burner is out. If so it is flagged on the display, or if so bad it locks out.

EVs do not need servicing. But the rolling parts do need a walk around. The MOT does that.

In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
On 09/04/2020 13:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
We've had one major issue- fixed either under warranty or the service
contract, I'm not sure which, there was another minor problem but I
think that was related to the other one. At the last regular check up,
the engineer who we see almost every year and have got to know a bit,
commented it was as good as new. Certainly it seems to work well enough.

Seem odd to pay a great deal of money to be told everything is OK once a
year? ;-)


We don't think so and its our money. In the scheme of things it isn't a
'great deal of money' - a couple of meals out.

Think I worked out it was roughly the cost of a replacement boiler
assuming the normal life span of one. Unless you had a boiler BG supplied
and fitted, of course. ;-)

--
*If you can read this, thank a teecher

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
John wrote:
On Thursday, 9 April 2020 13:34:19 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
We've had one major issue- fixed either under warranty or the service
contract, I'm not sure which, there was another minor problem but I
think that was related to the other one. At the last regular check up,
the engineer who we see almost every year and have got to know a bit,
commented it was as good as new. Certainly it seems to work well enough.

Seem odd to pay a great deal of money to be told everything is OK once a
year? ;-)

Navien heat exchangers do not need cleaning. All self cleaning boilers
need is flue gas sensors to determine of the burner is out. If so it is
flagged on the display, or if so bad it locks out.

Quite. What I liked about the Viessmann.

EVs do not need servicing. But the rolling parts do need a walk around.
The MOT does that.

My one fault was a split rubber hose, which took out the gas valve. Oddly,
the original drawing of the boiler in the manual doesn't show this rubber
hose. Copper pipe all the way. May have been added to further improve NVH.
It looked to be a silicon rubber one - so may have been unlucky it split.
That type seems to last forever in a car.

--
*Tell me to 'stuff it' - I'm a taxidermist.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 9 Apr 2020 at 11:49:07 BST, "John" wrote:

On Thursday, 9 April 2020 08:29:24 UTC+1, RJH wrote:
On 25 Mar 2020 at 16:23:05 GMT, ""Dave Plowman" News)"

wrote:

In article ,
David wrote:
It's difficult to buy a truly bad new car these days, just as it's
difficult to buy a truly bad boiler. Pretty much all cars and pretty
much all boilers are fine.

Be interesting to know the average lifespan and number of breakdowns etc.
Saving a few quid on purchase costs may be poor value if it need lots of
repairs and early replacement.

That's the sort of data Which should be able to get from its members.

They do a general survey - 9000 households, 200 engineers. Top 5 Worcester,
Vaillant, Viessmann, Potterton and Ideal. Bottom 3 - Headline, Ferroli and
Biasi (same for engineers and households).

Depends on the data and criteria they use - sometimes service call outs are
taken into account, rather than just the quality of the appliance. The best
quality boilers on the market, that all those in the heating industry (not
plumbers) would agree on a Intergas, ATAG (both Dutch who invented the
condensing boiler) and Navien. Navien are Koran who are the biggest boiler
manufacturers in the world - been available in the UK for about 5-7 years.
Viessmann are below them, who have recently dropped in quality. The rest lag
way behind the top three with Worcester Bosch, Ideal, Baxi and Vaillant way
overpriced for what they are.

Intergas and ATAG are listed - mid table by both engineers and households.
It's quite a complicated mix of scores and methods. I find the Which guides a
useful starting point, but not much else.


--
Cheers, Rob

On 09/04/2020 11:49, John wrote:


Depends on the data and criteria they use - sometimes service call outs are taken into account, rather than just the quality of the appliance. The best quality boilers on the market, that all those in the heating industry (not plumbers) would agree on a Intergas, ATAG (both Dutch who invented the condensing boiler) and Navien. Navien are Koran who are the biggest boiler manufacturers in the world - been available in the UK for about 5-7 years. Viessmann are below them, who have recently dropped in quality. The rest lag way behind the top three with Worcester Bosch, Ideal, Baxi and Vaillant way overpriced for what they are.



And the source(s)for all that ...?


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Thursday, 9 April 2020 16:31:31 UTC+1, Robin wrote:
On 09/04/2020 11:49, John wrote:


Depends on the data and criteria they use - sometimes service call outs are taken into account, rather than just the quality of the appliance. The best quality boilers on the market, that all those in the heating industry (not plumbers) would agree on a Intergas, ATAG (both Dutch who invented the condensing boiler) and Navien. Navien are Koran who are the biggest boiler manufacturers in the world - been available in the UK for about 5-7 years. Viessmann are below them, who have recently dropped in quality. The rest lag way behind the top three with Worcester Bosch, Ideal, Baxi and Vaillant way overpriced for what they are.



And the source(s)for all that ...?

Me, my name is on it.

On Thursday, 9 April 2020 16:04:02 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John wrote:
On Thursday, 9 April 2020 13:34:19 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Reay wrote:
We've had one major issue- fixed either under warranty or the service
contract, I'm not sure which, there was another minor problem but I
think that was related to the other one. At the last regular check up,
the engineer who we see almost every year and have got to know a bit,
commented it was as good as new. Certainly it seems to work well enough.

Seem odd to pay a great deal of money to be told everything is OK once a
year? ;-)

Navien heat exchangers do not need cleaning. All self cleaning boilers
need is flue gas sensors to determine of the burner is out. If so it is
flagged on the display, or if so bad it locks out.

Quite. What I liked about the Viessmann.

EVs do not need servicing. But the rolling parts do need a walk around.
The MOT does that.

My one fault was a split rubber hose, which took out the gas valve. Oddly,
the original drawing of the boiler in the manual doesn't show this rubber
hose. Copper pipe all the way. May have been added to further improve NVH..
It looked to be a silicon rubber one - so may have been unlucky it split.
That type seems to last forever in a car.

They have a kit to change the rubber to copper pipes. Get it. The rubber disintegrates causing problems like impellers on pumps disintegrating. The idea of the rubber water tubes was to move them out of the way for accessing components behind when repairing. Some makers, Ideal, Baxi, Viessemann have plastic hydroblocks. These cause water leaks after a while where pipes join because of the shocks of mains water. The makers say they are fine. Responsible installers knowing the problems install small shock arrestors on the cold water main just before the combi. This prevents/reduces the problem.. Viessmann now have a shock arrestor inside the combi. At least Viessmann has recognised and addressed the problem.

The likes of Intergas only use metal where water is.

On Thursday, 9 April 2020 16:06:17 UTC+1, RJH wrote:
On 9 Apr 2020 at 11:49:07 BST, "John" wrote:

On Thursday, 9 April 2020 08:29:24 UTC+1, RJH wrote:
On 25 Mar 2020 at 16:23:05 GMT, ""Dave Plowman" News)"

wrote:

In article ,
David wrote:
It's difficult to buy a truly bad new car these days, just as it's
difficult to buy a truly bad boiler. Pretty much all cars and pretty
much all boilers are fine.

Be interesting to know the average lifespan and number of breakdowns etc.
Saving a few quid on purchase costs may be poor value if it need lots of
repairs and early replacement.

That's the sort of data Which should be able to get from its members.

They do a general survey - 9000 households, 200 engineers. Top 5 Worcester,
Vaillant, Viessmann, Potterton and Ideal. Bottom 3 - Headline, Ferroli and
Biasi (same for engineers and households).

Depends on the data and criteria they use - sometimes service call outs are
taken into account, rather than just the quality of the appliance. The best
quality boilers on the market, that all those in the heating industry (not
plumbers) would agree on a Intergas, ATAG (both Dutch who invented the
condensing boiler) and Navien. Navien are Koran who are the biggest boiler
manufacturers in the world - been available in the UK for about 5-7 years.
Viessmann are below them, who have recently dropped in quality. The rest lag
way behind the top three with Worcester Bosch, Ideal, Baxi and Vaillant way
overpriced for what they are.

Intergas and ATAG are listed - mid table by both engineers and households.

Speak to installers on what is the best boiler and some really odd logic is used. Some know a little about a small handful of boilers they are familiar with. Or the boiler they get a good deal with. They are totally disinterested if it will be around in 10 years time, or how efficient it is. I know some who only fit Ideal and Baxis, because they know the error codes on them, not understanding other makes.

Householders would say it is great that the serviceman came the next day and fixed it, giving top marks, forgetting that the thing actually broke down in the first place. Most householders would not recognise good piping from bad piping, only looking at the badge on the white case.

On Thursday, April 9, 2020 at 2:48:02 PM UTC+1, John wrote:
On Thursday, 9 April 2020 12:47:23 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John wrote:
Depends on the data and criteria they use - sometimes service call outs
are taken into account, rather than just the quality of the appliance..
The best quality boilers on the market, that all those in the heating
industry (not plumbers) would agree on a Intergas, ATAG (both Dutch
who invented the condensing boiler) and Navien. Navien are Koran who are
the biggest boiler manufacturers in the world - been available in the UK
for about 5-7 years. Viessmann are below them, who have recently dropped
in quality. The rest lag way behind the top three with Worcester Bosch,
Ideal, Baxi and Vaillant way overpriced for what they are.

Navien have advanced designs with even touch control user panels with
also great touches like taking the outside temperature for weather
compensation from satellites, so no wire to a sensor on the north side
of a building. Their stainless double pass heat exchangers do not need
cleaning. The latest Intergas and Navien boilers modulate way down low,
to under 3kw. When on an Opentherm thermostat (really a sensor not an
on-off stat), the burner modulates to the demands of the building. Only
when the demand is below 3kW, or lower, will any burner cycling occur;
by then the building will be up temperature anyhow with heating off.

Interesting. I chose a Veissmann some 12 years ago, based on reports here
and elsewhere. Not regretted the choice. Was impressed with the build
quality on the one repair it's needed in this time. Things like the PCB
including fuses on all the outputs. Even although they're soldered in, and
not something the average repair man would fix.

Spares are pricey, but availability and delivery very good.

Only real complaint is the user interface. Setting up things like the
weather compensation. Which I'd hoped would be addressed on later models
by doing it all via your phone or PC, rather than fiddly multi function
buttons on the programmer. But I think par for the course at that time.

Shame if they've dropped back in the pecking order. I did a self install,
and the human on the other end of the help line couldn't have been more
helpful. He was obviously an engineer, rather than just a phone advisor,
who had to look everything up.

Viessmann have flagged recently. The quality of the older models you can testify to. Pricey spare parts is not an issue with reliable boilers, as you rarely use them. The best by design is Intergas. The quality is high as well. The bi-thermal heat exchanger is flat being as big the casing, located at the back of the casing with all components at the front, being easy to get at the few component in the thing. The intergas is a two man lift it is so well made. The boiler was introduced in 1996 in Holland in response to a call for a simple, reliable, low maintenance, combi for the Dutch social housing market.

They listened to the servicemen to what they wanted as they were starting uncompromised from a clean sheet, they were not designing a boiler to be an assembled "kit" of of third party parts as most are. The Intergas Rapid is still basically the same 1996 boiler, which was "way ahead" of others at the time with weather compensation and Opentherm as standard and not overpriced either; Opentherm protocol is used extensively in Holland. They first came into the UK rebadged by a small UK company called Atmos - who also rebadged other makes. Sales were by reputation, then Intergas established themselves in the UK as manufacturing and UK demand increased. They have introduced a number of new models since, however the same heat exchanger design is used.

I believe Vaillant wanted to buy out Intergas to get their hands on the heat exchanger. They did talk about making the heat exchanger under licence. The Americans/Japanese beat them to it buying the company, which will still operate independently in Holland. Vaillant are still buying French Gianoni heat exchangers. Whether the heat exchanger will also be made elsewhere to meet Intergas' demand is yet to be seen.

Others makers have chunky heat exchangers, either square or round, the round French Gianoni is common in Vaillants, Baxi and others. These types are not a good fit inside the casing, leaving wasted space around them. Subsequently, when manufacturers make combis (the biggest market) they have to squeeze in a plate heat exchanger, 3-way valve, pump and all the other pipework and sensors. This makes servicing difficult in that common fail components have to be removed to get at those behind - a big job to replace a small cheap component. Look at this on the Intergas design, the heat exchanger is all the back, what you need to get at is on the front. The whole front of the heat exchanger lifts off by removing 10 bolts to clean:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nHjm19Oi6I

The boiler for advanced electronics is Navien. They even coat the pcb with a plastic coating in case water gets on it.

I think it's the ATAG A325ECX combi that has integrated flue heat recovery in for DHW, which increases the DHW flowrate, and efficiency of course.

Am I the only long-standing member here who is reminded of our late(?)
lamented(??) International Man of Mystery, aka. Doctor Drivel?

(John is not necessarily expected to understand this)

On Thursday, 9 April 2020 18:52:35 UTC+1, jkn wrote:
On Thursday, April 9, 2020 at 2:48:02 PM UTC+1, John wrote:
On Thursday, 9 April 2020 12:47:23 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John wrote:
Depends on the data and criteria they use - sometimes service call outs
are taken into account, rather than just the quality of the appliance.
The best quality boilers on the market, that all those in the heating
industry (not plumbers) would agree on a Intergas, ATAG (both Dutch
who invented the condensing boiler) and Navien. Navien are Koran who are
the biggest boiler manufacturers in the world - been available in the UK
for about 5-7 years. Viessmann are below them, who have recently dropped
in quality. The rest lag way behind the top three with Worcester Bosch,
Ideal, Baxi and Vaillant way overpriced for what they are.

Navien have advanced designs with even touch control user panels with
also great touches like taking the outside temperature for weather
compensation from satellites, so no wire to a sensor on the north side
of a building. Their stainless double pass heat exchangers do not need
cleaning. The latest Intergas and Navien boilers modulate way down low,
to under 3kw. When on an Opentherm thermostat (really a sensor not an
on-off stat), the burner modulates to the demands of the building. Only
when the demand is below 3kW, or lower, will any burner cycling occur;
by then the building will be up temperature anyhow with heating off..

Interesting. I chose a Veissmann some 12 years ago, based on reports here
and elsewhere. Not regretted the choice. Was impressed with the build
quality on the one repair it's needed in this time. Things like the PCB
including fuses on all the outputs. Even although they're soldered in, and
not something the average repair man would fix.

Spares are pricey, but availability and delivery very good.

Only real complaint is the user interface. Setting up things like the
weather compensation. Which I'd hoped would be addressed on later models
by doing it all via your phone or PC, rather than fiddly multi function
buttons on the programmer. But I think par for the course at that time.

Shame if they've dropped back in the pecking order. I did a self install,
and the human on the other end of the help line couldn't have been more
helpful. He was obviously an engineer, rather than just a phone advisor,
who had to look everything up.

Viessmann have flagged recently. The quality of the older models you can testify to. Pricey spare parts is not an issue with reliable boilers, as you rarely use them. The best by design is Intergas. The quality is high as well. The bi-thermal heat exchanger is flat being as big the casing, located at the back of the casing with all components at the front, being easy to get at the few component in the thing. The intergas is a two man lift it is so well made. The boiler was introduced in 1996 in Holland in response to a call for a simple, reliable, low maintenance, combi for the Dutch social housing market.

They listened to the servicemen to what they wanted as they were starting uncompromised from a clean sheet, they were not designing a boiler to be an assembled "kit" of of third party parts as most are. The Intergas Rapid is still basically the same 1996 boiler, which was "way ahead" of others at the time with weather compensation and Opentherm as standard and not overpriced either; Opentherm protocol is used extensively in Holland. They first came into the UK rebadged by a small UK company called Atmos - who also rebadged other makes. Sales were by reputation, then Intergas established themselves in the UK as manufacturing and UK demand increased. They have introduced a number of new models since, however the same heat exchanger design is used.

I believe Vaillant wanted to buy out Intergas to get their hands on the heat exchanger. They did talk about making the heat exchanger under licence. The Americans/Japanese beat them to it buying the company, which will still operate independently in Holland. Vaillant are still buying French Gianoni heat exchangers. Whether the heat exchanger will also be made elsewhere to meet Intergas' demand is yet to be seen.

Others makers have chunky heat exchangers, either square or round, the round French Gianoni is common in Vaillants, Baxi and others. These types are not a good fit inside the casing, leaving wasted space around them. Subsequently, when manufacturers make combis (the biggest market) they have to squeeze in a plate heat exchanger, 3-way valve, pump and all the other pipework and sensors. This makes servicing difficult in that common fail components have to be removed to get at those behind - a big job to replace a small cheap component. Look at this on the Intergas design, the heat exchanger is all the back, what you need to get at is on the front. The whole front of the heat exchanger lifts off by removing 10 bolts to clean:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nHjm19Oi6I

The boiler for advanced electronics is Navien. They even coat the pcb with a plastic coating in case water gets on it.

I think it's the ATAG A325ECX combi that has integrated flue heat recovery in for DHW, which increases the DHW flowrate, and efficiency of course.

Am I the only long-standing member here who is reminded of our late(?)
lamented(??) International Man of Mystery, aka. Doctor Drivel?

(John is not necessarily expected to understand this)

You got me on that one.

In article ,
jkn wrote:
Am I the only long-standing member here who is reminded of our late(?)
lamented(??) International Man of Mystery, aka. Doctor Drivel?

Very much so. John Burns was at least part of his real name.

Thought it was Burns-Curtis?

--
*All men are idiots, and I married their King.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.