Just moved house and we think the central heating could do with a once over
whilst we are redoing the kitchen, as boiler presently situated there.

We intend putting it in the garage, other side of the wall. We are going to
install a new boiler as we think the old one is prob inefficient and working
hard for the size of the house, although we put this down to its age. It is
an Ideal E Type 60N which we have been told is an ooold boiler.

System pipe work is also all in 15mm which could do with beefing up to 22 on
the main circuits if my thinking is right, any thoughts?

Any way we are looking to change the current vented system to a sealed
system boiler, is this a good way to go?

A couple of contenders on the list at www.discountedheating.co.uk are the
Worcester/Bosch SBI System Boiler 24SBI RSF or the Vaillant Thermocompact
RSF 624EH NG.

I would appreciate some experienced input from those that know better than
me if these boilers are pretty much like for like. Do I need to buy extras
with one that I wouldn't with another; I notice there is also a price for a
SBI System Boiler Plug in Diverter Valve to go with the SBi do I need
something like this with either of them or does the Vaillant already have
it? Are there other boilers to seriously consider around this price point, I
should say that I not keen to go the combie route as I like to have the
stored hot water, just old fashioned I guess!! Also the time clock is old
and playing up a little so thought better get one of the heating packs with
easy wire up panel, room thermostat & time clock etc. any recommendations of
names to go for.

We also have an SMC Comet Controller Pump fitted next to our Grundfos pump,
what does that do?

I'm sure I can come up with some more questions later but help with the
above will keep me going for now. I got her indoors breathing down neck to
get the boiler moved so I can get on with the kitchen as we have to
microwave everything at the moment!

Any body ever laid slate floor tiles?

Thank for any imput

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 22:54:49 -0000, "simon beer"
wrote:


Just moved house and we think the central heating could do with a once over
whilst we are redoing the kitchen, as boiler presently situated there.

We intend putting it in the garage, other side of the wall. We are going to
install a new boiler as we think the old one is prob inefficient and working
hard for the size of the house, although we put this down to its age. It is
an Ideal E Type 60N which we have been told is an ooold boiler.

System pipe work is also all in 15mm which could do with beefing up to 22 on
the main circuits if my thinking is right, any thoughts?

This really depends on the amount of heat that the pipes are
transporting. Before doing major surgery, it would be sensible to
calculate the requirements.

If it were me, I would work from first principles and not trust
anything already there. It seems that a lot of professional
installers work from fag packet rules of thumb and guess what is
required based on the area of the rooms multiplied by granny's
telephone number.

The radiator manufacturers have calculator programs which will do the
grunt work of heat loss calculations. Basically you measure all the
surfaces, choose the material type from a menu to determine the loss
factor or U value and then for each element multiply the temperature
difference across it by the area and the U value. The programs
simply tabulate and calculate it for you and add the results.
Look on the web sites of Myson and Barlo for examples. This is not
complex arithmetic.
You will end up with a heat loss for each room typically by choosing
-3 degrees for outside and appropriate temperatures for internal
rooms. The radiators need to make up for the heat loss. From the
heat loss in Watts you can refer to the radiator manufacturer's data
or the program to pick radiator sizes. This would be for an
installation from scratch. The radiators are connected generally
via 15mm pipe in groups, trunked to 22mm or in large systems 28mm for
connection to the boiler. Sometimes microbore in 8 or 10mm is used
and this generally connects to the 22mm directly at manifolds or other
junction points. The critical point is that the pipework is
adequately sized to carry the required heat. This is related to pipe
length and diameter and based on keeping the flow rate less than
1.5m/sec. If this is exceeded, the system will be noisy and/or not
enough water will flow to deliver the required heat.

There is a useful application note that you can download from the
Copper Development Association web site which gives data and worked
examples. www.cda.org.uk


If the system is otherwise heating the rooms adequately (you won't
know for sure because it hasn't been cold enough yet), then you can
start part way through and assume that the radiators are adequately
sized. In this case, find something looking the same on a
manufacturer's data sheet and determine radiators the same or close
in size to what you have. Take the output in Watts from that.
However, one point that is misleading in data sheets is that the
actual output, if you have a conventional UK spec boiler running with
82 degree flow and 70 return is that the actual output from radiators
is typically only 89% of the figures in the main table. This is
because the measurement method used assumes a higher water
temperature. Simply take the figures from the table and multiply
by 0.89 to get the actual output and the requirement. Then add
the figures of the radiators on given branches together following the
application note. You can get away with pipes being perhaps 10% or
so undersized, but much more than that and you won't get the heat
output.




Any way we are looking to change the current vented system to a sealed
system boiler, is this a good way to go?

Yes it is and very easy to do. Have a look at Ed Sirett's FAQ on
this. The only note that I would add is to make sure that you clean
the system very thoroughly (I've posted a way to do this a few times)
and be prepared to change the radiator valves as they may seep under
pressure. You are not talking about a lot of pressure - typically
2bar max. but it can be enough.



A couple of contenders on the list at www.discountedheating.co.uk are the
Worcester/Bosch SBI System Boiler 24SBI RSF or the Vaillant Thermocompact
RSF 624EH NG.

I would definitely consider going for condensing models from either of
these manufacturers. The Thermocompact and the Worcester Bosch SBI
only just scrape in above the minimum Building Regulation requirement
of 78% SEDBUK efficiency.

Installing these, although they are good makes seems a shame when you
can get a condensing model at about £150-200 more and achieve over
90%. The extra cost should easily be recoverable in the lifetime of
the boiler. There is discussion around raising the efficiency limit
to 86% from 2005 which would effectively take these lower efficiency
non-condensing products off the market.



I would appreciate some experienced input from those that know better than
me if these boilers are pretty much like for like. Do I need to buy extras
with one that I wouldn't with another; I notice there is also a price for a
SBI System Boiler Plug in Diverter Valve to go with the SBi do I need
something like this with either of them or does the Vaillant already have
it? Are there other boilers to seriously consider around this price point, I
should say that I not keen to go the combie route as I like to have the
stored hot water, just old fashioned I guess!!

Several people here have installed and been pleased with Keston
Celsius 25 which is a good value for money product,

If you do decide to stick with a vented HW system, and it certainly
does have a number of advantages, then it is worth changing the
cylinder for a fast recovery type to improve HW reheat performance
while you are at it.

Also the time clock is old
and playing up a little so thought better get one of the heating packs with
easy wire up panel, room thermostat & time clock etc. any recommendations of
names to go for.

Honeywell make good products as do Danfoss Randall. You may find
their RF products useful in eliminating wiring. There are also
useful features such as temperature set back for night use - the idea
is to drop the temperature about 5-6 degrees rather than turning off
the heat totally. This can be more efficient as well as being more
comfortable.



We also have an SMC Comet Controller Pump fitted next to our Grundfos pump,
what does that do?

Who knows. Perhaps there is one pump for the CH and another for the
DHW? I suspect that both of these will end up being chucked out and
a system of motorised valves used instead. The pump in a system
boiler should be able to do everything.





I'm sure I can come up with some more questions later but help with the
above will keep me going for now. I got her indoors breathing down neck to
get the boiler moved so I can get on with the kitchen as we have to
microwave everything at the moment!

Any body ever laid slate floor tiles?

Yes, and it is very hard work if you use the larger ones.




Thank for any imput



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"simon beer" wrote in message
...



Any body ever laid slate floor tiles?
I've laid slate on concrete before, but I did it the wrong way! I'm telling
you so you don't try it that way. I laid them on a bed of concrete, and
had the idea that for full strength they should be totally in contact with
the concrete below. To this end, I laid each slab on a more or less flat
bed of concrete. That's a hard way to do it since all slates are of
different
thicknesses, so to get them to the right level, the only answer is to shimmy
them around so that excess cement exudes from the gaps between slates.
Cement doesn't exude very well, and if you squeeze enough of the
water out of it it locks solid and shimmying no longer has any effect. Then
you lift the slate and start again! If I did it again I would use the finer
and
stickier cement grout you can buy, and use a 5 dab pattern under each
slate, so it can be manouevred into position easily - it leaves airspaces
under the slates so when you drop something on them they sound a little
hollow, but so what! Always start with the thickest slate first, and shuffle
the slates if from different batches.
To be really safe examine each slate for warping/curvature, size
and
squareness before use ( I found the odd rogue got through ). Cut the slates
at the edges to fit with a diamond wheel flat-bed cutter ( £30 - £50 if you
haven't got one ). Don't know how to lay slate on a wooden floor though.
hth

Andy

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 22:54:49 -0000, "simon beer"
wrote:


System pipe work is also all in 15mm which could do with beefing up to 22
on
the main circuits if my thinking is right, any thoughts?

This really depends on the amount of heat that the pipes are
transporting. Before doing major surgery, it would be sensible to
calculate the requirements.

Did a quick calc using B&Q's radiator sizing quide. I know this not to
accurate but gave me a starting point. I downloaded Barlow Heatloss but it
seems to be very buggie (on my machine) and keeps crashing. Myson Heatloss
Manager is presently not available for download, got a copy you could email?
My lad is an apprentice plumber, he will be doing a lot of the change over,
his tutor said to him that the pipe bore should be in 28mm but I think this
is overkill. My lad would be competent to do the work but has no experience
on conventional heating boilers or the sealed systems as his firm has a lot
of contracts for fitting combie boilers. I don't think they vary there
experience enough in the domestic situation.

If it were me, I would work from first principles and not trust
anything already there. It seems that a lot of professional
installers work from fag packet rules of thumb and guess what is
required based on the area of the rooms multiplied by granny's
telephone number.

I suspect the B&Q method!

If the system is otherwise heating the rooms adequately (you won't
know for sure because it hasn't been cold enough yet), then you can
start part way through and assume that the radiators are adequately
sized.

As you say not cold enough yet, but most rads are up on the max on there
T/valves. This is far better however than anything we have had before. Never
had C/H our last house had storage heating. The sound of a boiler fireing up
is a very comforting sound.

In this case, find something looking the same on a
manufacturer's data sheet and determine radiators the same or close
in size to what you have

Will give this a try

The only note that I would add is to make sure that you clean
the system very thoroughly (I've posted a way to do this a few times)
and be prepared to change the radiator valves as they may seep under
pressure. You are not talking about a lot of pressure - typically
2bar max. but it can be enough.

We just drained down the system at weekend and added a cleaner into the
refill, is this adequet?

I would definitely consider going for condensing models from either of
these manufacturers. The Thermocompact and the Worcester Bosch SBI
only just scrape in above the minimum Building Regulation requirement
of 78% SEDBUK efficiency.

Apart from the condensing side of it though you would say that there is not
much to chose between the 2 brands and models?

Several people here have installed and been pleased with Keston
Celsius 25 which is a good value for money product,

I will take a look at it.

If you do decide to stick with a vented HW system, and it certainly
does have a number of advantages,

What are they, in brief?

then it is worth changing the
cylinder for a fast recovery type to improve HW reheat performance
while you are at it.

Do you mean a S/S preasurised hot tank or is there something else?


I suspect that both of these will end up being chucked out and
a system of motorised valves used instead. The pump in a system
boiler should be able to do everything.

Yes just got to work out the motorized valve bit!

Any body ever laid slate floor tiles?

Yes, and it is very hard work if you use the larger ones.

30 X 30 cm do you call them the large ones ?

Thanks for you help Andy.

"andrewpreece" wrote in message
...

"simon beer" wrote in message
...



Any body ever laid slate floor tiles?
I've laid slate on concrete before, but I did it the wrong way! I'm
telling
you so you don't try it that way. I laid them on a bed of concrete, and
had the idea that for full strength they should be totally in contact with
the concrete below. To this end, I laid each slab on a more or less flat
bed of concrete. That's a hard way to do it since all slates are of
different
thicknesses, so to get them to the right level, the only answer is to
shimmy
them around so that excess cement exudes from the gaps between slates.
Cement doesn't exude very well, and if you squeeze enough of the
water out of it it locks solid and shimmying no longer has any effect.
Then
you lift the slate and start again! If I did it again I would use the
finer
and
stickier cement grout you can buy,

What make?

and use a 5 dab pattern under each
slate, so it can be manouevred into position easily - it leaves airspaces
under the slates so when you drop something on them they sound a little
hollow, but so what!

If you have a well insulated floor, the masonry above the insulation acts as
thermal mass, providing you don't cover it with carpets. Dotting and dabbing
the slate tiles partially isolates you from a the thermal mass below. I
would not recommend dotting and dabbing anything. BTW, slate has the
highest "admittance" of any masonry material. Dense concrete is high too.
Use all that thermal mass as any solar gain in the room will be stored in
the thermal mass. The thermal mass prevents strong temperature swings.





---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.538 / Virus Database: 333 - Release Date: 10/11/2003

"simon beer" wrote in message
...

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 22:54:49 -0000, "simon beer"
wrote:


System pipe work is also all in 15mm which could do with beefing up to
22
on
the main circuits if my thinking is right, any thoughts?

This really depends on the amount of heat that the pipes are
transporting. Before doing major surgery, it would be sensible to
calculate the requirements.

Did a quick calc using B&Q's radiator sizing quide. I know this not to
accurate but gave me a starting point. I downloaded Barlow Heatloss but it
seems to be very buggie (on my machine) and keeps crashing. Myson Heatloss
Manager is presently not available for download, got a copy you could
email?
My lad is an apprentice plumber, he will be doing a lot of the change
over,
his tutor said to him that the pipe bore should be in 28mm but I think
this
is overkill. My lad would be competent to do the work but has no
experience
on conventional heating boilers or the sealed systems as his firm has a
lot
of contracts for fitting combie boilers. I don't think they vary there
experience enough in the domestic situation.

If it were me, I would work from first principles and not trust
anything already there. It seems that a lot of professional
installers work from fag packet rules of thumb and guess what is
required based on the area of the rooms multiplied by granny's
telephone number.

I suspect the B&Q method!

If the system is otherwise heating the rooms adequately (you won't
know for sure because it hasn't been cold enough yet), then you can
start part way through and assume that the radiators are adequately
sized.

As you say not cold enough yet, but most rads are up on the max on there
T/valves. This is far better however than anything we have had before.
Never
had C/H our last house had storage heating. The sound of a boiler fireing
up
is a very comforting sound.

In this case, find something looking the same on a
manufacturer's data sheet and determine radiators the same or close
in size to what you have

Will give this a try

The only note that I would add is to make sure that you clean
the system very thoroughly (I've posted a way to do this a few times)
and be prepared to change the radiator valves as they may seep under
pressure. You are not talking about a lot of pressure - typically
2bar max. but it can be enough.

We just drained down the system at weekend and added a cleaner into the
refill, is this adequet?

I would definitely consider going for condensing models from either of
these manufacturers. The Thermocompact and the Worcester Bosch SBI
only just scrape in above the minimum Building Regulation requirement
of 78% SEDBUK efficiency.

Apart from the condensing side of it though you would say that there is
not
much to chose between the 2 brands and models?

Go Bosch as parts are more readily available and not rip-off. Expertise to
service it is also more readily available.

Go for either a Glow Worm condenser (good value, well made) or the Bosch
Greenstar. If you have long flue lengths then the Kestonis the one to go
for. Don't go regular boiler, go for a condenser. They are well worth the
extra.

Several people here have installed and been pleased with Keston
Celsius 25 which is a good value for money product,

I will take a look at it.

If you do decide to stick with a vented HW system, and it certainly
does have a number of advantages,

What are they, in brief?

Consider a heat bank. Mains water pressure at the taps, so high pressures
showers and no pump, but no high pressure cylinders. Can be DIYed.
For an explanatioin:
http://www.heatweb.com

then it is worth changing the
cylinder for a fast recovery type to improve HW reheat performance
while you are at it.

Do you mean a S/S preasurised hot tank
or is there something else?

No. Andy means a quick recovery coil is inside (not just a Part L cylinder).
This will take all the boilers heat output and heat the cylinder in a matter
of minutes. When taking a shower it may be reheating faster than what you
can draw-off water. Fit a second cylinder thermostat, that holds off the CH
side until the cylinder is above 64C. This prevents any boiler cycling, as
when the cylinder is near heated the flow and return temps narrow down to
near each other, then cycling starts. Cycling is inefficient, it also wears
out boiler controls faster. Adding the cooler return water of the heating
system virtually eliminates this. Quick recovery cylinders also use less
fuel to heat them. "Always" fit quick recovery.

Don't go pressurised unvented cylinder. The Megaflow type. You need to be
BBA approved to fit anyhow.

I suspect that both of these will end up being chucked out and
a system of motorised valves used instead. The pump in a system
boiler should be able to do everything.

Yes just got to work out the motorized valve bit!

The Worcester-Bosch Greenstar will incorporate a 3-ways inside the case for
you; customer option. Neat and easy, and takes no space. So you just run
pipes to the CH and cylinder and no pumps or valves around cluttering
cupboards.

Any body ever laid slate floor tiles?

See my other post on this.

Use a Honeywell CM67 programmable thermostat. It also optimises and has a
boiler anti-cycle function.



---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.538 / Virus Database: 333 - Release Date: 10/11/2003

simon beer wrote:
Just moved house and we think the central heating could do with a
once over whilst we are redoing the kitchen, as boiler presently
situated there.

We intend putting it in the garage, other side of the wall. We are
going to install a new boiler as we think the old one is prob
inefficient and working hard for the size of the house, although we
put this down to its age. It is an Ideal E Type 60N which we have
been told is an ooold boiler.

System pipe work is also all in 15mm which could do with beefing up
to 22 on the main circuits if my thinking is right, any thoughts?
Should be 22mm min up to the zone valves. In a very small property you can
get away with 15mm.

Any way we are looking to change the current vented system to a sealed
system boiler, is this a good way to go?
You can use a combi boiler as a system boiler, I have, the advantage is that
they are much more competitively priced. In fact when I asked Ariston about
this they recommended it and sent me appropriate wiring diagrams.

"IMM" wrote in message

If you do decide to stick with a vented HW system, and it certainly
does have a number of advantages,

What are they, in brief?

Consider a heat bank. Mains water pressure at the taps, so high pressures
showers and no pump, but no high pressure cylinders. Can be DIYed.
For an explanatioin:
http://www.heatweb.com

then it is worth changing the
cylinder for a fast recovery type to improve HW reheat performance
while you are at it.


Can fast recovery cylinder only be fitted with a heat bank, not read about
them yet. Or do they work just in cojuntion with the boiler. Any links,
names or idea of prices on the fast recovery cylinder

"simon beer" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message

If you do decide to stick with a vented HW system, and it certainly
does have a number of advantages,

What are they, in brief?

Consider a heat bank. Mains water pressure at the taps, so high
pressures
showers and no pump, but no high pressure cylinders. Can be DIYed.
For an explanatioin:
http://www.heatweb.com

then it is worth changing the
cylinder for a fast recovery type to improve HW reheat performance
while you are at it.

Can fast recovery cylinder only be fitted with a heat bank, not read about
them yet. Or do they work just in cojuntion with the boiler. Any links,
names or idea of prices on the fast recovery cylinder

Heat banks can be heated direct or indirect.

A fast recovery cylinder can be open vented or to a limited degree in
unvented cylinders, the Megaflow type.

http://www.abion-online.co.uk for an explanation of fast recovery cylinders.
using a fast recovery cylinder you can downsize the cylinder, or fit one in
the same size effectively increase the size. Travis Perkins do the Telford
Typhoon at 80 litres (fine for a one bathroom house) for £99 inc VAT and 125
litre version. Best to have the heating cut out cylinder stat fitted and
set to 64C whe using these cylinders.





---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.538 / Virus Database: 333 - Release Date: 10/11/2003

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"simon beer" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message

If you do decide to stick with a vented HW system, and it certainly
does have a number of advantages,

What are they, in brief?

Consider a heat bank. Mains water pressure at the taps, so high
pressures
showers and no pump, but no high pressure cylinders. Can be DIYed.
For an explanatioin:
http://www.heatweb.com

then it is worth changing the
cylinder for a fast recovery type to improve HW reheat performance
while you are at it.

Can fast recovery cylinder only be fitted with a heat bank, not read
about
them yet. Or do they work just in cojuntion with the boiler. Any links,
names or idea of prices on the fast recovery cylinder

Heat banks can be heated direct or indirect.

A fast recovery cylinder can be open vented or to a limited degree in
unvented cylinders, the Megaflow type.

http://www.abion-online.co.uk for an explanation of fast recovery
cylinders.
using a fast recovery cylinder you can downsize the cylinder, or fit one
in
the same size effectively increase the size. Travis Perkins do the
Telford
Typhoon at 80 litres (fine for a one bathroom house) for £99 inc VAT and
125
litre version. Best to have the heating cut out cylinder stat fitted and
set to 64C when using these cylinders.

Sorry, that should be approx 44c when using an unvented and open vented
cylinder set to 55C water temp. For a heat bank at 80C, it shpould be 64C.
For a heat bank at set at 75C it should be 59C.


---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.538 / Virus Database: 333 - Release Date: 10/11/2003

The Worcester-Bosch Greenstar will incorporate a 3-ways inside the case for
you; customer option. Neat and easy, and takes no space.

According to my manual, the internal diverter valve option would be very
good for most systems, as it appears to allow different temperatures to be
set for the hot water and heating sides of the valve. Unfortunately, the
maximum allowed is 75C on hot water, so is no good for a heat bank. Heating
side is normally limited to 75C, but can be boosted to 85C by flipping a
plastic insert.

Christian.

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 09:17:12 -0000, "simon beer"
wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 22:54:49 -0000, "simon beer"
wrote:


System pipe work is also all in 15mm which could do with beefing up to 22
on
the main circuits if my thinking is right, any thoughts?

This really depends on the amount of heat that the pipes are
transporting. Before doing major surgery, it would be sensible to
calculate the requirements.

Did a quick calc using B&Q's radiator sizing quide. I know this not to
accurate but gave me a starting point. I downloaded Barlow Heatloss but it
seems to be very buggie (on my machine) and keeps crashing. Myson Heatloss
Manager is presently not available for download, got a copy you could email?

On its way to you.


My lad is an apprentice plumber, he will be doing a lot of the change over,
his tutor said to him that the pipe bore should be in 28mm but I think this
is overkill.

It may or may not be. Until you do the sums you can't really be
sure. Typically 22mm is enough but it does depend on pipe lengths
and how branches are arranged.


My lad would be competent to do the work but has no experience
on conventional heating boilers or the sealed systems as his firm has a lot
of contracts for fitting combie boilers. I don't think they vary there
experience enough in the domestic situation.

Generally combi boilers have sealed CH systems connected to them
anyway often with the components like the pressure vessel built in.



If it were me, I would work from first principles and not trust
anything already there. It seems that a lot of professional
installers work from fag packet rules of thumb and guess what is
required based on the area of the rooms multiplied by granny's
telephone number.

I suspect the B&Q method!

It is pretty inaccurate.


If the system is otherwise heating the rooms adequately (you won't
know for sure because it hasn't been cold enough yet), then you can
start part way through and assume that the radiators are adequately
sized.

As you say not cold enough yet, but most rads are up on the max on there
T/valves. This is far better however than anything we have had before. Never
had C/H our last house had storage heating. The sound of a boiler fireing up
is a very comforting sound.

In this case, find something looking the same on a
manufacturer's data sheet and determine radiators the same or close
in size to what you have

Will give this a try

The only note that I would add is to make sure that you clean
the system very thoroughly (I've posted a way to do this a few times)
and be prepared to change the radiator valves as they may seep under
pressure. You are not talking about a lot of pressure - typically
2bar max. but it can be enough.

We just drained down the system at weekend and added a cleaner into the
refill, is this adequet?

Take a look at a radiator afterwards and see whether there is any
substantial amount of sludge. If so, have a look for my method of
cleaning.




I would definitely consider going for condensing models from either of
these manufacturers. The Thermocompact and the Worcester Bosch SBI
only just scrape in above the minimum Building Regulation requirement
of 78% SEDBUK efficiency.

Apart from the condensing side of it though you would say that there is not
much to chose between the 2 brands and models?

Several people here have installed and been pleased with Keston
Celsius 25 which is a good value for money product,

I will take a look at it.

If you do decide to stick with a vented HW system, and it certainly
does have a number of advantages,

What are they, in brief?

- Availability of a lot of simultaneous flow if you have multiple
baths, showers and other appliances, independent of what the mains
water supply is doing.

- Storage of water in the event of mains failure.



then it is worth changing the
cylinder for a fast recovery type to improve HW reheat performance
while you are at it.

Do you mean a S/S preasurised hot tank or is there something else?


No, it means an improved (= larger surface area) heat exchanger/coil
in the cylinder.


I suspect that both of these will end up being chucked out and
a system of motorised valves used instead. The pump in a system
boiler should be able to do everything.

Yes just got to work out the motorized valve bit!

Any body ever laid slate floor tiles?

Yes, and it is very hard work if you use the larger ones.

30 X 30 cm do you call them the large ones ?

No, these aren't too bad. I have some 600x400 tiles and these are
substantially heavy if laying a lot of them.





Thanks for you help Andy.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 13:33:09 -0000, "simon beer"
wrote:


"IMM" wrote in message

If you do decide to stick with a vented HW system, and it certainly
does have a number of advantages,

What are they, in brief?

Consider a heat bank. Mains water pressure at the taps, so high pressures
showers and no pump, but no high pressure cylinders. Can be DIYed.
For an explanatioin:
http://www.heatweb.com

then it is worth changing the
cylinder for a fast recovery type to improve HW reheat performance
while you are at it.


Can fast recovery cylinder only be fitted with a heat bank, not read about
them yet. Or do they work just in cojuntion with the boiler. Any links,
names or idea of prices on the fast recovery cylinder




Apart from the installation aspects of a heatbank (not needing a
professional installer vs. a pressurised cylinder), the cylinder water
is effectively storing energy for use through a heat exchanger which
heats the water on demand. A stainless steel plate heat exchanger
is typically used and can transfer large amounts of energy (100-200kW
is not uncommon). In that sense, it does not suffer from the
limitations of a combi which will be limited by its size and rate of
gas use.

However, before considering any kind of direct mains hot water system,
it is important to validate that the flow rate from the main is
adequate. 30 litres per minute at the rising main/kitchen cold tap
is reasonable.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"andrewpreece" wrote in message
...

"simon beer" wrote in message
...



Any body ever laid slate floor tiles?
I've laid slate on concrete before, but I did it the wrong way! I'm
telling
you so you don't try it that way. I laid them on a bed of concrete, and
had the idea that for full strength they should be totally in contact
with
the concrete below. To this end, I laid each slab on a more or less flat
bed of concrete. That's a hard way to do it since all slates are of
different
thicknesses, so to get them to the right level, the only answer is to
shimmy
them around so that excess cement exudes from the gaps between slates.
Cement doesn't exude very well, and if you squeeze enough of
the
water out of it it locks solid and shimmying no longer has any effect.
Then
you lift the slate and start again! If I did it again I would use the
finer
and
stickier cement grout you can buy,

What make?

Wickes. At any rate use it for grouting the joints as cement/sand mix is
really too gritty and gives a rough finish ( I used 6mm gaps between
slates ).


and use a 5 dab pattern under each
slate, so it can be manouevred into position easily - it leaves
airspaces
under the slates so when you drop something on them they sound a little
hollow, but so what!

If you have a well insulated floor, the masonry above the insulation acts
as
thermal mass, providing you don't cover it with carpets. Dotting and
dabbing
the slate tiles partially isolates you from a the thermal mass below. I
would not recommend dotting and dabbing anything.

I can't comment on the thermal aspects, only that it is extremely difficult
to bed
any tile of a decent size down onto a flat bed of mortar ( I am talking 1
foot
square or larger here ). Unless the amount of cement used is more or less
exactly the right amount, your slate tile will sit proud or too low; using a
sloppy
mix to facilitate adjustment can create other problems. Bricks ( easier to
lay
in this respect as they are smaller ) are laid on a bed of mortar which has
had
a pattern chopped into it by the brickie ( with his trowel ). It is the
equivalent
of dot and dab, but modified for brickwork. I expect that skill in
application of
cement in any application will make for better results, with less or no
voids, but
I reckon it is very difficult to lay large tiles and adjust them to the
correct depth
without using at least a variant of the dob and dab method,

Andy.



---
--

Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.538 / Virus Database: 333 - Release Date: 10/11/2003

On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 09:17:12 +0000, simon beer wrote:




Yes just got to work out the motorized valve bit!

Which you will find in the main FAQ.

Note almost all combi boilers have Sealed CH systems connected to them.

For a 24kW boiler 22mm pipe work on the 'backbone' will be good enough.

You have to get to around 35kW before 28mm is really needed.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html