One of our daughters lives in a house with no mains gas - only some
electric storage heaters.
Just pondering (on her behalf) - installing mains gas could be done at a
high cost - but then the cost of a boiler, etc makes it all economic
disaster.
Before she sets about replacing a couple of knackered storage heaters - is
there a realisic bottled gas option to get some heat into the house - there
is an external wall in the lounge.

John wrote:
One of our daughters lives in a house with no mains gas - only some
electric storage heaters.
Just pondering (on her behalf) - installing mains gas could be done at a
high cost - but then the cost of a boiler, etc makes it all economic
disaster.
Before she sets about replacing a couple of knackered storage heaters - is
there a realisic bottled gas option to get some heat into the house - there
is an external wall in the lounge.

Would a woodburner be an option? Or oil?

Theo

John wrote:
One of our daughters lives in a house with no mains gas - only some
electric storage heaters.
Just pondering (on her behalf) - installing mains gas could be done at a
high cost - but then the cost of a boiler, etc makes it all economic
disaster.
Before she sets about replacing a couple of knackered storage heaters - is
there a realisic bottled gas option to get some heat into the house - there
is an external wall in the lounge.

I think you'll find that LPG (i.e. bottled gas) isn't much cheaper
than electricity, especially if you get Economy 7 and work at moving
as much consumption as possible to overnight.

We have a big LPG tank (came with the house, I don't think I'd have
chosen LPG) and a newish boiler but I doubt it's any cheaper than
electricity really.

--
Chris Green
·

If you are talking about open flame LPG fires then forget it the condensation resulting from the amount of water they throw out is horrendous.

If on the other hand you are considering an LPG boiler then very carefully weigh up the costs. To start with the boiler itself will probably be dearer than an equivalent natural gas one because it is a smaller market. As for how practical it is to run it off cylinders I do not know even if it is cost effective do you really want to be out there in -5°C changing over cylinders. I think most people running off LPG tend to have a large gas tank in the garden, so do you have a suitable garden and it will still probably require some digging to run the gas feed into the house. When you weigh up all these costs it may not be cheaper than running a gas supply in from the street assuming there is gas there.

When we were buying our house about 6 years back one that we considered had been cut off from the gas and if I recollect correctly to have a new connection put was £700 but I cannot swear on that.

Richard

Tricky Dicky wrote in
:

If you are talking about open flame LPG fires then forget it the
condensation resulting from the amount of water they throw out is
horrendous.



A balanced flue would be feasable.

On Tuesday, 19 November 2019 10:32:52 UTC, John wrote:
Just pondering (on her behalf) - installing mains gas could be done at a
high cost - but then the cost of a boiler, etc makes it all economic
disaster.

Does it?

Apart from being cheaper to run, gas central heating is one of the few home improvements that can often add more value to the house than it costs to put in.

Especially if you can do the radiators etc yourself.

Gas install cost depends on how far you are from the main and what civils work is involved in digging up.

Owain

On 19/11/2019 10:32, John wrote:
One of our daughters lives in a house with no mains gas - only some
electric storage heaters.
Just pondering (on her behalf) - installing mains gas could be done at a
high cost - but then the cost of a boiler, etc makes it all economic
disaster.

Depends how high the cost is. They would want about £2M to put our
village on mains gas despite the fact that we are in the evacuation
danger zone for one of the UKs high pressure gas pipelines!

Before she sets about replacing a couple of knackered storage heaters - is
there a realisic bottled gas option to get some heat into the house - there
is an external wall in the lounge.

Bottled gas tends to be expensive and hard work in terms of cylinder
swaps during winter. Oil is a bit more tractable in rural areas as you
can easily have enough fuel to last out the cold season. Tactic is buy
in midsummer and use the rest of the year. Bad idea to be buying fuel
during a cold snap as both delivery and prices are unfavourable.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 12:12:45 +0000
Martin Brown wrote:

Bottled gas tends to be expensive and hard work in terms of cylinder
swaps during winter.

Our gas switches automatically from one cylinder to the other, and the
guy who delivers the new cylinder does all the work. All I have to do
is monitor the indicator to know when it has changed over, and make a
'phone call.

--
Davey.

On 19/11/2019 10:32, John wrote:
One of our daughters lives in a house with no mains gas - only some
electric storage heaters.
Just pondering (on her behalf) - installing mains gas could be done at a
high cost - but then the cost of a boiler, etc makes it all economic
disaster.
Before she sets about replacing a couple of knackered storage heaters - is
there a realisic bottled gas option to get some heat into the house - there
is an external wall in the lounge.


Why do you want gas? It can go bang if there is a leak. An oil boiler
and an induction hob is a safer and more convenient option. It is easy
to clean an induction hob and it will turn off if you remove a pan.
You will need an oil storage tank.

--
Michael Chare

On 19/11/2019 12:37, Davey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 12:12:45 +0000
Martin Brown wrote:

Bottled gas tends to be expensive and hard work in terms of cylinder
swaps during winter.

Our gas switches automatically from one cylinder to the other, and the
guy who delivers the new cylinder does all the work. All I have to do
is monitor the indicator to know when it has changed over, and make a
'phone call.

But in midwinter I would hazard a guess that when it is really cold
those gas bottles do not last long when compared to a 1500L oil tank.
You are much more dependent on timeliness of your supplier with gas.

Air source heat pumps are another option to consider for pure electric.
I know someone who has them and thinks they are great (OTOH we haven't
had a truly vicious cold winter since they moved in).

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 19/11/2019 11:18, Tricky Dicky wrote:
If you are talking about open flame LPG fires then forget it the condensation resulting from the amount of water they throw out is horrendous.

If on the other hand you are considering an LPG boiler then very carefully weigh up the costs. To start with the boiler itself will probably be dearer than an equivalent natural gas one because it is a smaller market. As for how practical it is to run it off cylinders I do not know even if it is cost effective do you really want to be out there in -5°C changing over cylinders. I think most people running off LPG tend to have a large gas tank in the garden, so do you have a suitable garden and it will still probably require some digging to run the gas feed into the house. When you weigh up all these costs it may not be cheaper than running a gas supply in from the street assuming there is gas there.

Friends this summer have had oil CH heating system installed with a bulk
tank in the garden. No mains gas available and the previous system was
20year old storage heaters. The new radiators are around the third of
the size of the old storage heaters and have freed up a lot of space in
rooms.

Various other option were considered
LPG supplied from bottles
LPG supplied from a bulk tank

For LPG from bottles you would need 47kg capacity bottles for domestic 3
bed house heating and typically around 20+ refills during the winter or
cold months. Cylinders containing the much gas are not something you
are likely to put in the back seat of your car to take down for a
refill. It's something that would be delivered and let someone else do
the heavy man-handling. You would need to have two or three cylinders
that you could change over to cover, say, the Xmas holiday period when
deliveries may not be possible.

Potential running costs:
Propane in 47kg bottles = £1250/year (possible needing 22 refills)
LPG from a bulk tank = £756/year
Heating oil from a bulk tank = approx £730 (possibly less at current
oil prices).
All solutions also give hot water, not requiring electric heating.

With potential running costs of £500 more per year for bottled gas this
solution was rejected.

The quotes for the boilers/radiators/bulk tanks etc were fairly
comparable with the 47kg bottle solution being £2K cheaper, I believe
the regulations for installing a bulk LPG tank may be more onerous than
for a oil tank.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Martin Brown wrote:
On 19/11/2019 12:37, Davey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 12:12:45 +0000
Martin Brown wrote:

Bottled gas tends to be expensive and hard work in terms of cylinder
swaps during winter.

Our gas switches automatically from one cylinder to the other, and the
guy who delivers the new cylinder does all the work. All I have to do
is monitor the indicator to know when it has changed over, and make a
'phone call.

But in midwinter I would hazard a guess that when it is really cold
those gas bottles do not last long when compared to a 1500L oil tank.
You are much more dependent on timeliness of your supplier with gas.

However 'bottled' gas (i.e. LPG) doesn't only come in relatively
little bottles. One can have a tank with a capacity comparable with
your oil tank, ours lasts a whole season.


--
Chris Green
·

On 19/11/2019 11:18, Tricky Dicky wrote:
If you are talking about open flame LPG fires then forget it the condensation resulting from the amount of water they throw out is horrendous.

Gazco still do balanced flue fires that run on LPG. Just needs a 6 inch
diameter hole for the concentric aluminium flue.

If on the other hand you are considering an LPG boiler then very carefully weigh up the costs. To start with the boiler itself will probably be dearer than an equivalent natural gas one because it is a smaller market. As for how practical it is to run it off cylinders I do not know even if it is cost effective do you really want to be out there in -5°C changing over cylinders. I think most people running off LPG tend to have a large gas tank in the garden, so do you have a suitable garden and it will still probably require some digging to run the gas feed into the house. When you weigh up all these costs it may not be cheaper than running a gas supply in from the street assuming there is gas there.

When we were buying our house about 6 years back one that we considered had been cut off from the gas and if I recollect correctly to have a new connection put was £700 but I cannot swear on that.

Richard

"Tricky Dicky" wrote in message
...
If you are talking about open flame LPG fires then forget it the
condensation resulting from the amount of water they throw out is
horrendous.

If on the other hand you are considering an LPG boiler then very carefully
weigh up the costs. To start with the boiler itself will probably be
dearer than an equivalent natural gas one because it is a smaller market.
As for how practical it is to run it off cylinders I do not know even if
it is cost effective do you really want to be out there in -5°C changing
over cylinders. I think most people running off LPG tend to have a large
gas tank in the garden, so do you have a suitable garden and it will still
probably require some digging to run the gas feed into the house. When you
weigh up all these costs it may not be cheaper than running a gas supply
in from the street assuming there is gas there.

47 kg propane cylinders are horrendously expensive. Where we lived
previously (my parents' holiday cottage, between selling selling our old
house and buying a new one) they had 47 kg propane, and the cost was about
£140 every couple of weeks, though that was a very old cottage which is cold
even in the hottest summer. You don't change the cylinders: you *must* have
them changed by Calor or a Calor-approved agent.

A large LPG tank may well work out cheaper per unit volume of gas.

Oil is cheaper still, but I'm not sure whether oil boilers tend to be more
expensive than gas ones. When the old bottled-gas boiler at the cottage
failed, my parents chose to replace it with a new one, rather than opting
for oil.

When we were living at the cottage, we used a mixture of bottled-gas central
heating and coke (Phurnacite) in a woefully small wood/coke stove which just
heated the living room.

"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 19/11/2019 10:32, John wrote:
One of our daughters lives in a house with no mains gas - only some
electric storage heaters.
Just pondering (on her behalf) - installing mains gas could be done at a
high cost - but then the cost of a boiler, etc makes it all economic
disaster.

Depends how high the cost is. They would want about £2M to put our village
on mains gas despite the fact that we are in the evacuation danger zone
for one of the UKs high pressure gas pipelines!

Before she sets about replacing a couple of knackered storage heaters -
is
there a realisic bottled gas option to get some heat into the house -
there
is an external wall in the lounge.

Bottled gas tends to be expensive and hard work in terms of cylinder swaps
during winter. Oil is a bit more tractable in rural areas as you can
easily have enough fuel to last out the cold season. Tactic is buy in
midsummer and use the rest of the year. Bad idea to be buying fuel during
a cold snap as both delivery and prices are unfavourable.

The village where my parents have a holiday cottage is about 1/4 mile from
where the gas company installed a brand new gas pipe between two towns. The
village enquired about being connected to the pipe via a spur, but the cost
was extortionate, possibly because a pressure-reducing valve would be
needed. When the villagers got it priced up for all the constituent parts,
they noticed that the gas company were changing silly money even for digging
the ditch for the pipe, but they've got you over a barrel: they would not
allow the local farmer to dig the ditch at a fraction of the cost using his
JCB - *everything* (even the ditch) *must* be done by approved contractors.

Given that there are only two farms and five cottages in the village, the
start-up cost for installing gas would not be spread among many people, so
completely out of the question. So everyone has to continue with oil or
bottled/tank gas. One house, owned by the estate, still has no central
heating and only a small fire in the living room which also heats the hot
water (but no radiators).

On 19/11/2019 11:18, Tricky Dicky wrote:
If you are talking about open flame LPG fires then forget it the condensation resulting from the amount of water they throw out is horrendous.

If on the other hand you are considering an LPG boiler then very carefully weigh up the costs. To start with the boiler itself will probably be dearer than an equivalent natural gas one because it is a smaller market. As for how practical it is to run it off cylinders I do not know even if it is cost effective do you really want to be out there in -5°C changing over cylinders.

They have an auto changeover valve.

Bill

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
On 19/11/2019 11:18, Tricky Dicky wrote:
If you are talking about open flame LPG fires then forget it the
condensation resulting from the amount of water they throw out is
horrendous.

If on the other hand you are considering an LPG boiler then very
carefully weigh up the costs. To start with the boiler itself will
probably be dearer than an equivalent natural gas one because it is a
smaller market. As for how practical it is to run it off cylinders I do
not know even if it is cost effective do you really want to be out there
in -5°C changing over cylinders.

They have an auto changeover valve.

And sometimes those valves even work :-) Where we were living, the
changeover valve developed a faulty changeover indicator for one of the
pairs of cylinders. When Pair A became empty, the valve would change to Pair
B and show the red flag to indicate "now is the time to order a new pair of
cylinders. But when Pair B became empty, although the valve would change to
pair A, it did not show the flag, so the first you knew was when *both*
pairs of cylinders were empty. We were stuck without gas for several days on
three occasions before I worked out the common factor (that it always
happened on the changeover from B to A) and had the valve tested and
replaced. To their credit, the gas-delivery company that we used were very
good about making us a priority delivery when we said that we had no gas at
all. No credit to the heating engineers who we called out to investigate why
we kept running out of gas without warning, and who failed to test the valve
*for transitions in both directions*; once I suspected a faulty valve, the
delivery driver proved it in about 10 seconds by turning off first one pair
of full cylinders and then the other to simulate out-of-gas.

It didn't help that our boiler didn't have a proper diagnostic warning to
say "low gas pressure", but instead lumped that code in with lots of
unrelated faults which didn't unambiguously imply that the cylinders might
be empty.

But changeover valves, as long as they work properly, are much better than
having to operate a valve manually once you notice that the boiler has
stopped working.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 13:31:02 +0000, alan_m wrote:

If on the other hand you are considering an LPG boiler then very
carefully weigh up the costs. To start with the boiler itself will

probably be dearer than an equivalent natural gas one because it
is a
smaller market.

Shouldn't be it's just a change of jet size and possibly adjustment
of the air supply (which a decent installer would check adjust
anyway). I wouldn't be surprised if the the boiler came with LPG jets
in a little packet.

Is for how practical it is to run it off cylinders I do not know even if
it is cost effective do you really want to be out there in -5°C
changing over cylinders.

As others have said auto change over valves solve that but it still
leaves you lugging cylinders that aren't far short of 100 kG (2 cwt,
15 stone) when full as you buy 47 kg of gas.

Potential running costs:
Propane in 47kg bottles = £1250/year (possible needing 22 refills)
LPG from a bulk tank = £756/year
Heating oil from a bulk tank = approx £730 (possibly less at current
oil prices).

£730... not using much oil then. Says him having just bought 2000 l
for £987 inc VAT that should last until Feb/Mar. When another 2000 l
will be required to last to Oct/Nov.

But yes bulk LPG and oil are currently very similar in overall cost.
You can't directly compare p/l as you get less energy per litre from
gas than you do oil. 7 kWhr v 10 kWhr ish.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 11:15:38 +0000, Chris Green wrote:

We have a big LPG tank (came with the house, I don't think I'd have
chosen LPG) and a newish boiler but I doubt it's any cheaper than
electricity really.

E7 night 7.69 p/kWhr peak 14.9 p/kWhr. (Bulb Area 16 Norweb as was).

Oil 4.7 p/kWhr (based on the 47p/l that I recently paid and 10
kWhr/l).

Ex VAT.

Oil and bulk LPG are very similar in overall cost at current prices.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 14:28:27 -0000, NY wrote:

You don't change the cylinders: you *must* have them changed by Calor or
a Calor-approved agent.

So caravaners, boat owners, outside cateres, etc don't change their
cylinders? ********.

The only slight "gotcha" is that the propane (orange cylinder) POL
connector is a left hand thread.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

lugging cylinders that aren't far short of 100 kG (2 cwt,
15 stone) when full as you buy 47 kg of gas.

Don't think so, flogas say the tare weight is 34kg

https://www.flogas.co.uk/shop/cylinders/flogas-gas-cylinders/47kg-propane-gas-cylinder-refill

On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 17:39:03 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

lugging cylinders that aren't far short of 100 kG (2 cwt, 15
stone)
when full as you buy 47 kg of gas.

Don't think so, flogas say the tare weight is 34kg

34 + 47 = 81 kg (1.6 cwt, 12.75 stone, over 3 standard bags of
cement).

Calor say 95 kg full for their 47 kg cylinders. Mind you they have
quite a spread for tare weight 29.5 to 57.7 kg.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Liquorice wrote:

Calor say 95 kg full for their 47 kg cylinders. Mind you they have
quite a spread for tare weight 29.5 to 57.7 kg.

Yes, just noticed that, have they switched from steel to aluminium?
I wouldn't have thought so ...

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
idual.net...
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 14:28:27 -0000, NY wrote:

You don't change the cylinders: you *must* have them changed by Calor or
a Calor-approved agent.

So caravaners, boat owners, outside cateres, etc don't change their
cylinders? ********.

The only slight "gotcha" is that the propane (orange cylinder) POL
connector is a left hand thread.

I was told by the company that we buy our gas from that gas safety laws
prohibit the customer from uncoupling the hoses and replacing cylinders, and
that only authorised, qualified people (their drivers and also central
heating plumbers) are allowed to do it. Maybe it is a company rule (if you
buy from *us*, we are the only ones who can disconnect the hoses) - but if
you buy from someone else you can connect the cylinders. How does it work
with cost if you obtain your own cylinders? Do you pay a deposit for the
cylinder itself which is refunded (or transferred to the new cylinders) when
you take the old cylinders back and exchange them for full ones?

I agree, my parents regularly used to disconnect and connect the butane
cylinders on their caravan. I wondered whether the rules were different for
butane versus propane or small cylinders versus the big 47 kg ones.

I remember the left-hand thread thing: every face of the hexagon nut is
marked with a notch to say "this is left-hand thread".

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
idual.net...
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 17:39:03 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

lugging cylinders that aren't far short of 100 kG (2 cwt, 15
stone)
when full as you buy 47 kg of gas.

Don't think so, flogas say the tare weight is 34kg

34 + 47 = 81 kg (1.6 cwt, 12.75 stone, over 3 standard bags of
cement).

Calor say 95 kg full for their 47 kg cylinders. Mind you they have
quite a spread for tare weight 29.5 to 57.7 kg.

Ah, I always wondered what the 47 kg related to. I wasn't sure whether it
was a gross weight, cylinder weight and gas weight. But it's 47 kg of gas,
plus a variable weight of cylinder, making up to around 80-90 kg gross. I
presume each cylinder is weighed "empty", then filled until the gross weight
is empty weight plus 47 kg.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:15:47 -0000
"NY" wrote:

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
idual.net...
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 17:39:03 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

lugging cylinders that aren't far short of 100 kG (2 cwt, 15
stone)
when full as you buy 47 kg of gas.

Don't think so, flogas say the tare weight is 34kg

34 + 47 = 81 kg (1.6 cwt, 12.75 stone, over 3 standard bags of
cement).

Calor say 95 kg full for their 47 kg cylinders. Mind you they have
quite a spread for tare weight 29.5 to 57.7 kg.

Ah, I always wondered what the 47 kg related to. I wasn't sure
whether it was a gross weight, cylinder weight and gas weight. But
it's 47 kg of gas, plus a variable weight of cylinder, making up to
around 80-90 kg gross. I presume each cylinder is weighed "empty",
then filled until the gross weight is empty weight plus 47 kg.


Flogas is our supplier, and they do all the handling and connecting.

--
Davey.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 14:28:27 -0000, NY wrote:

You don't change the cylinders: you *must* have them changed by Calor or
a Calor-approved agent.

So caravaners, boat owners, outside cateres, etc don't change their
cylinders? ********.

Generally though camping/caravanning/boat cylinders are smaller,
typically the 13kg or thereabouts variety.

The only slight "gotcha" is that the propane (orange cylinder) POL
connector is a left hand thread.

Depending on the country! I didn't believe this until I saw the
reality, they vary from country to country even within the EU.

--
Chris Green
·

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 11:15:38 +0000, Chris Green wrote:

We have a big LPG tank (came with the house, I don't think I'd have
chosen LPG) and a newish boiler but I doubt it's any cheaper than
electricity really.

E7 night 7.69 p/kWhr peak 14.9 p/kWhr. (Bulb Area 16 Norweb as was).

Oil 4.7 p/kWhr (based on the 47p/l that I recently paid and 10
kWhr/l).

Ex VAT.

Oil and bulk LPG are very similar in overall cost at current prices.

Yes, but 100% of those electric kWh will end up heating my water or my
house. Quite a significant percentage of the oil or gas kWh will go
up the chimney (or flue, or whatever). I guess boilers have become
more efficient now though so the balance may have swung more in favour
of gas/oil.

--
Chris Green
·

On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:15:47 -0000, NY wrote:

Ah, I always wondered what the 47 kg related to. I wasn't sure whether
it was a gross weight, cylinder weight and gas weight. But it's 47 kg of
gas, plus a variable weight of cylinder, making up to around 80-90 kg
gross. I presume each cylinder is weighed "empty", then filled until the
gross weight is empty weight plus 47 kg.

Cylinder weights vary and how "empty" a cylinder is varies as well.
So simple weighing and adding 47 kg of gas don't work. One of the
sets of numbers on the embossed ali collar is the true empty weight
of that cylinder. That is entered into the filling machine that then
adds gas so the gross weight is cylinder label weight plus 47 kg.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:10:21 -0000, NY wrote:

I was told by the company that we buy our gas from that gas safety laws
prohibit the customer from uncoupling the hoses and replacing cylinders,
and that only authorised, qualified people (their drivers and also
central heating plumbers) are allowed to do it.

Well that's one definition of "competent person"... the one that Gas
Safe or others with a vested interest like to push. Bear in mind that
"LPG work" requires another tick in another box on someones Gas Safe
ticket. So a bog standard "central heating plumber" may not be
"authorised" as their ticket is for domestic natural gas.

How does it work with cost if you obtain your own cylinders? Do you pay
a deposit for the cylinder itself ...

If starting without a cylinder yes you pay a deposit and for the gas.
The deposit is refundable but you'll need the bit of paper to show
how much you paid and I'm not sure that you can get a refund from any
place selling full cylinders.

It's normally easier to obtain a cylinder from some where (word of
mouth, freegle etc) for nowt or a few beer vouchers if it has a
useful amount of gas left in it. You just take empty cylinders to a
seller of full ones and exchange it for a full one for the price of
the gas.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 17:57:47 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

Calor say 95 kg full for their 47 kg cylinders. Mind you they have
quite a spread for tare weight 29.5 to 57.7 kg.

Yes, just noticed that, have they switched from steel to aluminium?
I wouldn't have thought so ...

Niether would I ali isn't that strong. Look at how much ali there is
in an alloy wheel compared to a steel one. Ali might have a lower
density but you need more of it to get the strength of steel, so the
weight ends up about the same.

Perhaps older cylinders were over engineered?

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 19:46:51 +0000, Chris Green wrote:

We have a big LPG tank (came with the house, I don't think I'd
have
chosen LPG) and a newish boiler but I doubt it's any cheaper than
electricity really.

E7 night 7.69 p/kWhr peak 14.9 p/kWhr. (Bulb Area 16 Norweb as
was).

Oil 4.7 p/kWhr (based on the 47p/l that I recently paid and 10
kWhr/l).

Ex VAT.

Oil and bulk LPG are very similar in overall cost at current
prices.

Yes, but 100% of those electric kWh will end up heating my water or my
house. Quite a significant percentage of the oil or gas kWh will go
up the chimney (or flue, or whatever). I guess boilers have become
more efficient now though so the balance may have swung more in favour
of gas/oil.

A modern condensing boiler running in condensing mode can get over
90% but realisticly it'll be lower than that but not as low as 61%
(4.7 / 7.89). Even our old huge cast iron non-condensing thing was
around 80%.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 21:50:57 +0000 (GMT+00:00), Jimk wrote:

Before she sets about replacing a couple of knackered storage
heaters

Forgot to pick up on this earlier.

Depending on her circumstances she might be able to get that done for
free. There is (hopefully not was) a scheme about that replaced old
storeage heaters with modern high heat rention ones. One snag is that
such heaters require both an E7 switched supply and an unswitched one
of a kW or two.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 19/11/2019 21:51, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 17:57:47 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

Calor say 95 kg full for their 47 kg cylinders. Mind you they have
quite a spread for tare weight 29.5 to 57.7 kg.

Yes, just noticed that, have they switched from steel to aluminium?
I wouldn't have thought so ...

Niether would I ali isn't that strong. Look at how much ali there is
in an alloy wheel compared to a steel one. Ali might have a lower
density but you need more of it to get the strength of steel, so the
weight ends up about the same.

Perhaps older cylinders were over engineered?

Calor did use aluminium for smaller (6 or 7kg ?) cylinders in the late
'70s or '80s. They were lighter and I think that they actually held more
gas than the steel equivalents.

SteveW

Martin Brown Wrote in message:
On 19/11/2019 10:32, John wrote:
One of our daughters lives in a house with no mains gas - only some
electric storage heaters.
Just pondering (on her behalf) - installing mains gas could be done at a
high cost - but then the cost of a boiler, etc makes it all economic
disaster.

Depends how high the cost is. They would want about £2M to put our
village on mains gas despite the fact that we are in the evacuation
danger zone for one of the UKs high pressure gas pipelines!

Before she sets about replacing a couple of knackered storage heaters - is
there a realisic bottled gas option to get some heat into the house - there
is an external wall in the lounge.

Bottled gas tends to be expensive and hard work in terms of cylinder
swaps during winter. Oil is a bit more tractable in rural areas as you
can easily have enough fuel to last out the cold season. Tactic is buy
in midsummer and use the rest of the year. Bad idea to be buying fuel
during a cold snap as both delivery and prices are unfavourable.


But not currently where oil prices are lower than August....
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"Dave Liquorice" wrote in
idual.net:

On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 21:50:57 +0000 (GMT+00:00), Jimk wrote:

Before she sets about replacing a couple of knackered storage
heaters

Forgot to pick up on this earlier.

Depending on her circumstances she might be able to get that done for
free. There is (hopefully not was) a scheme about that replaced old
storeage heaters with modern high heat rention ones. One snag is that
such heaters require both an E7 switched supply and an unswitched one
of a kW or two.


she has that.

Depending on her circumstances she might be able to get that done for
free. There is (hopefully not was) a scheme about that replaced old
storeage heaters with modern high heat rention ones. One snag is that
such heaters require both an E7 switched supply and an unswitched one
of a kW or two.


She works! But thanks.

I'd be careful of wood burners as the Government has them in its sights as
pollution machines. I have to say that a bloke down my road has one and when
the weather conditions are right, or wrong, so to speak I cannot open a
window or sit in the garden.
Brian

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"Theo" wrote in message
...
John wrote:
One of our daughters lives in a house with no mains gas - only some
electric storage heaters.
Just pondering (on her behalf) - installing mains gas could be done at a
high cost - but then the cost of a boiler, etc makes it all economic
disaster.
Before she sets about replacing a couple of knackered storage heaters -
is
there a realisic bottled gas option to get some heat into the house -
there
is an external wall in the lounge.

Would a woodburner be an option? Or oil?

Theo

Yes those stand alone heaters are no better than paraffin heaters for
condensation. I remember during the years of the rolling power cuts when
most people used on or the other that condensation and mould growth was a
nightmare unless you opened windows, which in mid winter of course meant
draughty rooms or possible carbon monoxide dangers if you sealed the room.
Brian

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"John" wrote in message
2.222...
Tricky Dicky wrote in
:

If you are talking about open flame LPG fires then forget it the
condensation resulting from the amount of water they throw out is
horrendous.



A balanced flue would be feasable.

On 19/11/2019 12:49, Michael Chare wrote:


Why do you want gas?Â* It can go bang if there is a leak.

Is that why so many of the millions of houses with mains gas CH go bang?

An oil boiler

Ah, oil never leaks and oil boilers never go wrong!


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