Yes much as I'd expect. I have storage heaters and they seem to compare on
the single fuel costs to the combined costs others get who have gas as well.
The only down side of storage heaters is if somebody comes to do some work
and opens doors in the late afternoon or evening you have to use peak
electricity to get the temp up since the storage heaters are getting colder
by then. This only happens in very cold wither given good insulation and
even reasonable double glazing.

When they came around poking yellow plastic pipes up the rusting iron ones,
I had a stop end fitted at the street, so no gas in the house.
Brian

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"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 19/11/2019 11:18, Tricky Dicky wrote:
If you are talking about open flame LPG fires then forget it the
condensation resulting from the amount of water they throw out is
horrendous.

If on the other hand you are considering an LPG boiler then very
carefully weigh up the costs. To start with the boiler itself will
probably be dearer than an equivalent natural gas one because it is a
smaller market. As for how practical it is to run it off cylinders I do
not know even if it is cost effective do you really want to be out there
in -5°C changing over cylinders. I think most people running off LPG tend
to have a large gas tank in the garden, so do you have a suitable garden
and it will still probably require some digging to run the gas feed into
the house. When you weigh up all these costs it may not be cheaper than
running a gas supply in from the street assuming there is gas there.

Friends this summer have had oil CH heating system installed with a bulk
tank in the garden. No mains gas available and the previous system was
20year old storage heaters. The new radiators are around the third of the
size of the old storage heaters and have freed up a lot of space in rooms.

Various other option were considered
LPG supplied from bottles
LPG supplied from a bulk tank

For LPG from bottles you would need 47kg capacity bottles for domestic 3
bed house heating and typically around 20+ refills during the winter or
cold months. Cylinders containing the much gas are not something you are
likely to put in the back seat of your car to take down for a refill. It's
something that would be delivered and let someone else do the heavy
man-handling. You would need to have two or three cylinders that you could
change over to cover, say, the Xmas holiday period when deliveries may not
be possible.

Potential running costs:
Propane in 47kg bottles = £1250/year (possible needing 22 refills)
LPG from a bulk tank = £756/year
Heating oil from a bulk tank = approx £730 (possibly less at current oil
prices).
All solutions also give hot water, not requiring electric heating.

With potential running costs of £500 more per year for bottled gas this
solution was rejected.

The quotes for the boilers/radiators/bulk tanks etc were fairly comparable
with the 47kg bottle solution being £2K cheaper, I believe the regulations
for installing a bulk LPG tank may be more onerous than for a oil tank.


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"Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)" wrote in
:

Yes those stand alone heaters are no better than paraffin heaters for
condensation. I remember during the years of the rolling power cuts
when most people used on or the other that condensation and mould
growth was a nightmare unless you opened windows, which in mid winter
of course meant draughty rooms or possible carbon monoxide dangers if
you sealed the room. Brian


I was thinking along the lines of a balanced flue wall mounted convector in
place of a storage heater. Probably just one - in the lounge.

"Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)" wrote in
:

Yes much as I'd expect. I have storage heaters and they seem to
compare on the single fuel costs to the combined costs others get who
have gas as well. The only down side of storage heaters is if somebody
comes to do some work and opens doors in the late afternoon or evening
you have to use peak electricity to get the temp up since the storage
heaters are getting colder by then. This only happens in very cold
wither given good insulation and even reasonable double glazing.

When they came around poking yellow plastic pipes up the rusting iron
ones, I had a stop end fitted at the street, so no gas in the house.
Brian


They gave up on one heater. It had about 6 elements - some failed and got
replaces - only to fail soon after - was the charge thermostat faulty? Too
difficult to keep driving over to see what was happening. Old - messy to
dismantle - they got rid of it and now use a fan heater

On 19/11/2019 17:21, Dave Liquorice wrote:

Potential running costs:
Propane in 47kg bottles = £1250/year (possible needing 22 refills)
LPG from a bulk tank = £756/year
Heating oil from a bulk tank = approx £730 (possibly less at current
oil prices).

£730... not using much oil then. Says him having just bought 2000 l
for £987 inc VAT that should last until Feb/Mar. When another 2000 l
will be required to last to Oct/Nov.

There was no energy consumption history with this property apart from 3
months of cold weather usage with the old electric storage heaters and
all hot water via an emersion heater. No mains gas to any property in
the village.

The previous occupant had money problems and one of the first things
changed was the pre-payment electricity meter and the energy supplier.

It's a brick 3 bed built 1960s property with double glazing, after
market cavity wall insulation and loft insulation.

A spread sheet was constructed using the "average" energy consumption
figures for this type of property as given on-line by a few of the
energy suppliers.

All the comparison figures were based on this average usage and
consideration given the efficiency of each fuel. Prices were an average
from a couple of local suppliers.

So yes, the final annual operating cost may be higher but so is true of
the other fuels.

The full comparison exercise may not have been attempted if it wasn't
for the first person quoting for the CH/hot water saying that bottled
gas would result in an installation cost being around £2K lower. In
this case if it sounds too good to be true it is - and cost saving in
installation is lost soon after in running costs and inconvenience in
having to have fuel delivered every few weeks during the cold months.

Most neighbour use oil with a few using LPG (all with bulk tanks). A few
supplement oil/LPG with a large wood store and appropriate stove/burner.


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On Tuesday, 19 November 2019 19:16:16 UTC, NY wrote:
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
idual.net...
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 17:39:03 +0000, Andy Burns wrote:

lugging cylinders that aren't far short of 100 kG (2 cwt, 15
stone)
when full as you buy 47 kg of gas.

Don't think so, flogas say the tare weight is 34kg

34 + 47 = 81 kg (1.6 cwt, 12.75 stone, over 3 standard bags of
cement).

Calor say 95 kg full for their 47 kg cylinders. Mind you they have
quite a spread for tare weight 29.5 to 57.7 kg.

Ah, I always wondered what the 47 kg related to. I wasn't sure whether it
was a gross weight, cylinder weight and gas weight. But it's 47 kg of gas,
plus a variable weight of cylinder, making up to around 80-90 kg gross. I
presume each cylinder is weighed "empty", then filled until the gross weight
is empty weight plus 47 kg.

If you look at the neck of the cylinder, full and empty weights are stamped.

For some applications the cylinder stands on a weighing device. So you know how much gas is left.

On 19/11/2019 21:41, Dave Liquorice wrote:
If starting without a cylinder yes you pay a deposit and for the gas.
The deposit is refundable but you'll need the bit of paper to show
how much you paid and I'm not sure that you can get a refund from any
place selling full cylinders.

Flogas will not refund the deposit.

(We sold one empty and one part-full when we went to an electric hob.)

Andy

If you haven't already decided on a boiler why not research heat pump options?

On 23/11/2019 16:41, Cynic wrote:
If you haven't already decided on a boiler why not research heat pump options?


Because they are overpriced crap, mostly?


--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
...I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

I'm currently looking at replacement of my old oil boiler and a heat pump with changes to radiators as required. It looks feasible and has the added incentive of RHI payments. Just need to decide whether air to water or ground to water would be optimal. Plus research electricity tariffs.
I'm not interested in green Incentives just Financials

On 19/11/2019 13:35, Chris Green wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:
On 19/11/2019 12:37, Davey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 12:12:45 +0000
Martin Brown wrote:

Bottled gas tends to be expensive and hard work in terms of cylinder
swaps during winter.

Our gas switches automatically from one cylinder to the other, and the
guy who delivers the new cylinder does all the work. All I have to do
is monitor the indicator to know when it has changed over, and make a
'phone call.

But in midwinter I would hazard a guess that when it is really cold
those gas bottles do not last long when compared to a 1500L oil tank.
You are much more dependent on timeliness of your supplier with gas.

However 'bottled' gas (i.e. LPG) doesn't only come in relatively
little bottles. One can have a tank with a capacity comparable with
your oil tank, ours lasts a whole season.


A mate of mine has one for his business. It's due for replacement in the
next couple of years, are the bulk tanks owned or leased?

newshound wrote:
On 19/11/2019 13:35, Chris Green wrote:
Martin Brown wrote:
On 19/11/2019 12:37, Davey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 12:12:45 +0000
Martin Brown wrote:

Bottled gas tends to be expensive and hard work in terms of cylinder
swaps during winter.

Our gas switches automatically from one cylinder to the other, and the
guy who delivers the new cylinder does all the work. All I have to do
is monitor the indicator to know when it has changed over, and make a
'phone call.

But in midwinter I would hazard a guess that when it is really cold
those gas bottles do not last long when compared to a 1500L oil tank.
You are much more dependent on timeliness of your supplier with gas.

However 'bottled' gas (i.e. LPG) doesn't only come in relatively
little bottles. One can have a tank with a capacity comparable with
your oil tank, ours lasts a whole season.


A mate of mine has one for his business. It's due for replacement in the
next couple of years, are the bulk tanks owned or leased?

I think they're usually leased, ours certainly is, we pay a 'rental'
for it. It has been replaced recently.

--
Chris Green
·

On 23/11/2019 18:14, Cynic wrote:
I'm currently looking at replacement of my old oil boiler and a heat pump with changes to radiators as required. It looks feasible and has the added incentive of RHI payments. Just need to decide whether air to water or ground to water would be optimal. Plus research electricity tariffs.
I'm not interested in green Incentives just Financials


It would be interesting to know how you research goes.
With my limited research on air based systems the savings (including
possibly £7.5K of payments) in the first 5 years are marginal. I also
read somewhere that the payments over 5 years are not necessarily
guaranteed and may be scaled back if the take-up of such systems exceeds
the budgets for payments.
Be careful to investigate how such a system works for a UK winter rather
than than some of the generalised claims made for these systems that are
being used other countries for air conditioning when the weather is hot.

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On 23/11/2019 21:04, Chris Green wrote:

I think they're usually leased, ours certainly is, we pay a 'rental'
for it. It has been replaced recently.


I'm pretty sure that my friend's bulk oil tank is owned. It was
installed as part of the recent CH (boiler and radiators) and
independently of any fuel supplier.

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On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 22:55:09 +0000
alan_m wrote:

On 23/11/2019 21:04, Chris Green wrote:

I think they're usually leased, ours certainly is, we pay a 'rental'
for it. It has been replaced recently.


I'm pretty sure that my friend's bulk oil tank is owned. It was
installed as part of the recent CH (boiler and radiators) and
independently of any fuel supplier.


In my personal experience, the gas bulk tanks are rented, or leased, and
the oil tanks are owned.

--
Davey.