We are about to use kitchen units from Benchmarx to fit out an office.

Nothing much; just one tall wall cupboard and two pan drawer units.

I've downloaded the fitting instructions and hints, and one thing is that
it recommends fitting the run of base units before fitting the wall units
above.

My expectation was that you would fit the wall units first when you could
easily get at the wall, then fit the base units second.

Is "base units first" always the standard way (perhaps to make sure the
wall units are exactly aligned with the base units) or doesn't it make
much difference?


Cheers



Dave R


--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

---
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On 23/08/2019 13:15, David wrote:
We are about to use kitchen units from Benchmarx to fit out an office.

Nothing much; just one tall wall cupboard and two pan drawer units.

I've downloaded the fitting instructions and hints, and one thing is that
it recommends fitting the run of base units before fitting the wall units
above.

My expectation was that you would fit the wall units first when you could
easily get at the wall, then fit the base units second.

Is "base units first" always the standard way (perhaps to make sure the
wall units are exactly aligned with the base units) or doesn't it make
much difference?


Cheers



Dave R


Personally I do wall units first because then you have easier access for
drilling without the base units getting in the way. The other thing I
have done for a long time is to fit a batten first, which all the base
units rest on. This is to carry the main weight, then the top fittings
only have to apply a tensile force to stop the units from rotating away
from the wall. The batten is not particularly visible (especially if you
use doors that are "higher" than the cabinets) and I tend to fit screw
hooks into them to hang kitchen spoons, etc.

With the batten first, it is usually only a one person job even to fit
double width wall units. Batten first also helps if you have "difficult"
walls. I have in the past used units that "hang" on high hooks that you
fit to the wall first, but it is more difficult to get the units level
and at the same height.

On Friday, 23 August 2019 13:15:23 UTC+1, David WE Roberts (Google) wrote:
We are about to use kitchen units from Benchmarx to fit out an office.

Nothing much; just one tall wall cupboard and two pan drawer units.

I've downloaded the fitting instructions and hints, and one thing is that
it recommends fitting the run of base units before fitting the wall units
above.

My expectation was that you would fit the wall units first when you could
easily get at the wall, then fit the base units second.

Is "base units first" always the standard way (perhaps to make sure the
wall units are exactly aligned with the base units) or doesn't it make
much difference?


Cheers



Dave R


--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

I can't see it makes too much difference but a couple of thoughts
1. If you have tall larder units you would want to fit them first so the tops of the wall units align with it
2. If the floor was drastically out fitting the base units first would get the correct height off the worksurface (would have to be very out though and you would for some reason want to be super exact on distance from work surface to wall units!)
3. You can rest the wall unit on the base unit so you only have to lift from there.
4. Stops you banging you head on the wall unit when you bend down to get a screw for the next one

newshound wrote in
o.uk:

On 23/08/2019 13:15, David wrote:
We are about to use kitchen units from Benchmarx to fit out an
office.

Nothing much; just one tall wall cupboard and two pan drawer units.

I've downloaded the fitting instructions and hints, and one thing is
that it recommends fitting the run of base units before fitting the
wall units above.

My expectation was that you would fit the wall units first when you
could easily get at the wall, then fit the base units second.

Is "base units first" always the standard way (perhaps to make sure
the wall units are exactly aligned with the base units) or doesn't it
make much difference?


Cheers



Dave R


Personally I do wall units first because then you have easier access
for drilling without the base units getting in the way. The other
thing I have done for a long time is to fit a batten first, which all
the base units rest on. This is to carry the main weight, then the top
fittings only have to apply a tensile force to stop the units from
rotating away from the wall. The batten is not particularly visible
(especially if you use doors that are "higher" than the cabinets) and
I tend to fit screw hooks into them to hang kitchen spoons, etc.

With the batten first, it is usually only a one person job even to fit
double width wall units. Batten first also helps if you have
"difficult" walls. I have in the past used units that "hang" on high
hooks that you fit to the wall first, but it is more difficult to get
the units level and at the same height.

A length of Dexion type angle is less obvious than a batten. The fixing
to the wall is hidden by the cupboards. (if you fit it the right way)

On 23/08/2019 13:59, John wrote:
newshound wrote in
o.uk:

On 23/08/2019 13:15, David wrote:
We are about to use kitchen units from Benchmarx to fit out an
office.

With the batten first, it is usually only a one person job even to fit
double width wall units. Batten first also helps if you have
"difficult" walls. I have in the past used units that "hang" on high
hooks that you fit to the wall first, but it is more difficult to get
the units level and at the same height.

A length of Dexion type angle is less obvious than a batten. The fixing
to the wall is hidden by the cupboards. (if you fit it the right way)

Means a visible gap if you have an exposed end, though.

On 23/08/2019 13:43, Lee Nowell wrote:
On Friday, 23 August 2019 13:15:23 UTC+1, David WE Roberts (Google) wrote:


I can't see it makes too much difference but a couple of thoughts
1. If you have tall larder units you would want to fit them first so the tops of the wall units align with it
2. If the floor was drastically out fitting the base units first would get the correct height off the worksurface (would have to be very out though and you would for some reason want to be super exact on distance from work surface to wall units!)

Having seen too many base units with chipboard down to the floor gone
soggy following water leaks, I'd only ever fit units on those adjustable
plastic pillars.

3. You can rest the wall unit on the base unit so you only have to lift from there.

I used to do that, before I discovered the batten trick.

4. Stops you banging you head on the wall unit when you bend down to get a screw for the next one

newshound wrote:
On 23/08/2019 13:59, John wrote:
newshound wrote in
o.uk:

On 23/08/2019 13:15, David wrote:
We are about to use kitchen units from Benchmarx to fit out an
office.

With the batten first, it is usually only a one person job even to fit
double width wall units. Batten first also helps if you have
"difficult" walls. I have in the past used units that "hang" on high
hooks that you fit to the wall first, but it is more difficult to get
the units level and at the same height.

A length of Dexion type angle is less obvious than a batten. The fixing
to the wall is hidden by the cupboards. (if you fit it the right way)

Means a visible gap if you have an exposed end, though.

As long as the fixings are sound I don't see any necessity for these.
Hanging the cupboards on screws will exert most force in shear and the
'pull out' force will be similar with or without the support at the
bottom. Admittedly our walls are very solid, I might go for something
extra on a stud wall, but in a stud wall I think I'd simply search for
the timber and fix directly or indirectly to that.

A well fixed steel screw will hold an incredible weight in shear. My
rule of thumb for steel's strength is 40 tons/sq in which gives a
shear strength of somewhere around a ton for a 5mm screw. The screw
will probably fall out first of course but I do always wonder why
people use great fat fixings for holding a few tens of kilograms.
Nearly all my fixings are 3.5mm or 4mm screws in yellow plugs and I
can assure you they *don't* fall out or break.

--
Chris Green
·

On 23/08/2019 20:31, Chris Green wrote:


As long as the fixings are sound I don't see any necessity for these.
Hanging the cupboards on screws will exert most force in shear and the
'pull out' force will be similar with or without the support at the
bottom. Admittedly our walls are very solid, I might go for something
extra on a stud wall, but in a stud wall I think I'd simply search for
the timber and fix directly or indirectly to that.

How? Particularly for "ordinary" carcases with a hardboard back. You
either fit a top batten with the hanger type fittings, or some sort of
intermediate batten attached to the carcase that you can screw through,
or a batten at the bottom that immediately ensures that all your units
are horizontal, and aligned vertically.


A well fixed steel screw will hold an incredible weight in shear. My
rule of thumb for steel's strength is 40 tons/sq in which gives a
shear strength of somewhere around a ton for a 5mm screw. The screw
will probably fall out first of course but I do always wonder why
people use great fat fixings for holding a few tens of kilograms.
Nearly all my fixings are 3.5mm or 4mm screws in yellow plugs and I
can assure you they *don't* fall out or break.


This is all true. However with a rendered random stone wall you will be
lucky to get any wall plug within half an inch vertically or
horizontally of where you actually want it, once you manage to get a
secure fixing.

I agree life is much easier in a modern house with decent brickwork or
blockwork.

newshound wrote:

Particularly for "ordinary" carcases with a hardboard back. You
either fit a top batten with the hanger type fittings, or some sort of
intermediate batten attached to the carcase that you can screw through,
or a batten at the bottom that immediately ensures that all your units
are horizontal, and aligned vertically.

Rather than fit the two little mounting brackets in the top corners of
each wall cabinet, you can buy it in 2 metre long rails, saves faffing
about measuring where they'll go

https://www.locksonline.com/Cabinet-Hanger-Wall-Rail-2032mm-Long-6492.html

On Friday, 23 August 2019 20:33:05 UTC+1, Chris Green wrote:
newshound wrote:
On 23/08/2019 13:59, John wrote:
newshound wrote in
o.uk:
On 23/08/2019 13:15, David wrote:

We are about to use kitchen units from Benchmarx to fit out an
office.

With the batten first, it is usually only a one person job even to fit
double width wall units. Batten first also helps if you have
"difficult" walls. I have in the past used units that "hang" on high
hooks that you fit to the wall first, but it is more difficult to get
the units level and at the same height.

A length of Dexion type angle is less obvious than a batten. The fixing
to the wall is hidden by the cupboards. (if you fit it the right way)

Means a visible gap if you have an exposed end, though.

As long as the fixings are sound I don't see any necessity for these.
Hanging the cupboards on screws will exert most force in shear and the
'pull out' force will be similar with or without the support at the
bottom. Admittedly our walls are very solid, I might go for something
extra on a stud wall, but in a stud wall I think I'd simply search for
the timber and fix directly or indirectly to that.

A well fixed steel screw will hold an incredible weight in shear. My
rule of thumb for steel's strength is 40 tons/sq in which gives a
shear strength of somewhere around a ton for a 5mm screw. The screw
will probably fall out first of course but I do always wonder why
people use great fat fixings for holding a few tens of kilograms.
Nearly all my fixings are 3.5mm or 4mm screws in yellow plugs and I
can assure you they *don't* fall out or break.

Many do. Some suffer from masonry crumbling, or the masonry simply snaps. Most people fail to clear the dust out, resulting in a weak bond. And the ida that you can reliably safely support a ton on a bit of 5mm wire sideways strikes me as decidedly optimistic.


NT

wrote:
On Friday, 23 August 2019 20:33:05 UTC+1, Chris Green wrote:
A well fixed steel screw will hold an incredible weight in shear. My
rule of thumb for steel's strength is 40 tons/sq in which gives a
shear strength of somewhere around a ton for a 5mm screw. The screw
will probably fall out first of course but I do always wonder why
people use great fat fixings for holding a few tens of kilograms.
Nearly all my fixings are 3.5mm or 4mm screws in yellow plugs and I
can assure you they *don't* fall out or break.

Many do. Some suffer from masonry crumbling, or the masonry simply snaps.
Most people fail to clear the dust out, resulting in a weak bond. And the
ida that you can reliably safely support a ton on a bit of 5mm wire sideways
strikes me as decidedly optimistic.

I wasn't suggesting supporting a ton on one screw, I was just pointing
out that big screws are unnecessary. It is of course necessary to
ensure that the screw is soundly fixed in the wall which, I find,
doesn't depend much on the size of the screw. *Longer* screws often
help but *fatter* screws are not a lot of help.

--
Chris Green
·

On 23/08/2019 21:05, Andy Burns wrote:
newshound wrote:

Particularly for "ordinary" carcases with a hardboard back. You either
fit a top batten with the hanger type fittings, or some sort of
intermediate batten attached to the carcase that you can screw
through, or a batten at the bottom that immediately ensures that all
your units are horizontal, and aligned vertically.

Rather than fit the two little mounting brackets in the top corners of
each wall cabinet, you can buy it in 2 metre long rails, saves faffing
about measuring where they'll go

https://www.locksonline.com/Cabinet-Hanger-Wall-Rail-2032mm-Long-6492.html



https://www.ikea.com/gb/en/p/metod-s...ised-60205664/

I wasn't suggesting supporting a ton on one screw, I was just pointing
out that big screws are unnecessary. It is of course necessary to
ensure that the screw is soundly fixed in the wall which, I find,
doesn't depend much on the size of the screw. *Longer* screws often
help but *fatter* screws are not a lot of help.


I always think the older type screws were better as the root of the thread
was tapered. Modern screws are parallel therefore they don,t wedge tighter
as they are driven in - they also tend to cut into the plug rather than
force it open.

On 24/08/2019 16:45, John wrote:

I wasn't suggesting supporting a ton on one screw, I was just pointing
out that big screws are unnecessary. It is of course necessary to
ensure that the screw is soundly fixed in the wall which, I find,
doesn't depend much on the size of the screw. *Longer* screws often
help but *fatter* screws are not a lot of help.


I always think the older type screws were better as the root of the thread
was tapered. Modern screws are parallel therefore they don,t wedge tighter
as they are driven in - they also tend to cut into the plug rather than
force it open.


That would be why you don't use self cutting screws with plugs.

On Saturday, 24 August 2019 10:03:04 UTC+1, Chris Green wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 23 August 2019 20:33:05 UTC+1, Chris Green wrote:

A well fixed steel screw will hold an incredible weight in shear. My
rule of thumb for steel's strength is 40 tons/sq in which gives a
shear strength of somewhere around a ton for a 5mm screw. The screw
will probably fall out first of course but I do always wonder why
people use great fat fixings for holding a few tens of kilograms.
Nearly all my fixings are 3.5mm or 4mm screws in yellow plugs and I
can assure you they *don't* fall out or break.

Many do. Some suffer from masonry crumbling, or the masonry simply snaps.
Most people fail to clear the dust out, resulting in a weak bond. And the
ida that you can reliably safely support a ton on a bit of 5mm wire sideways
strikes me as decidedly optimistic.

I wasn't suggesting supporting a ton on one screw, I was just pointing
out that big screws are unnecessary. It is of course necessary to
ensure that the screw is soundly fixed in the wall which, I find,
doesn't depend much on the size of the screw. *Longer* screws often
help but *fatter* screws are not a lot of help.

You were. I was pointing out that was not correct. Maybe you're upto speed now.

wrote:
On Saturday, 24 August 2019 10:03:04 UTC+1, Chris Green wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 23 August 2019 20:33:05 UTC+1, Chris Green wrote:

A well fixed steel screw will hold an incredible weight in shear. My
rule of thumb for steel's strength is 40 tons/sq in which gives a
shear strength of somewhere around a ton for a 5mm screw. The screw
will probably fall out first of course but I do always wonder why
people use great fat fixings for holding a few tens of kilograms.
Nearly all my fixings are 3.5mm or 4mm screws in yellow plugs and I
can assure you they *don't* fall out or break.

Many do. Some suffer from masonry crumbling, or the masonry simply snaps.
Most people fail to clear the dust out, resulting in a weak bond. And the
ida that you can reliably safely support a ton on a bit of 5mm wire sideways
strikes me as decidedly optimistic.

I wasn't suggesting supporting a ton on one screw, I was just pointing
out that big screws are unnecessary. It is of course necessary to
ensure that the screw is soundly fixed in the wall which, I find,
doesn't depend much on the size of the screw. *Longer* screws often
help but *fatter* screws are not a lot of help.

You were. I was pointing out that was not correct. Maybe you're upto speed now.

I said:-
A well fixed steel screw will hold an incredible weight in shear. My
rule of thumb for steel's strength is 40 tons/sq in which gives a
shear strength of somewhere around a ton for a 5mm screw. The screw

That doesn't mean one *should* support so much on a single screw, it
was just pointing out that it's not the screw that is the limiting
factor when fixing things to the wall.

--
Chris Green
·

"dennis@home" wrote in
:

On 24/08/2019 16:45, John wrote:

I wasn't suggesting supporting a ton on one screw, I was just
pointing out that big screws are unnecessary. It is of course
necessary to ensure that the screw is soundly fixed in the wall
which, I find, doesn't depend much on the size of the screw.
*Longer* screws often help but *fatter* screws are not a lot of
help.


I always think the older type screws were better as the root of the
thread was tapered. Modern screws are parallel therefore they don,t
wedge tighter as they are driven in - they also tend to cut into the
plug rather than force it open.


That would be why you don't use self cutting screws with plugs.



They are getting hard to avoid and are often provided with items,

On Sunday, 25 August 2019 08:48:05 UTC+1, Chris Green wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 24 August 2019 10:03:04 UTC+1, Chris Green wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:
On Friday, 23 August 2019 20:33:05 UTC+1, Chris Green wrote:

A well fixed steel screw will hold an incredible weight in shear. My
rule of thumb for steel's strength is 40 tons/sq in which gives a
shear strength of somewhere around a ton for a 5mm screw. The screw
will probably fall out first of course but I do always wonder why
people use great fat fixings for holding a few tens of kilograms.
Nearly all my fixings are 3.5mm or 4mm screws in yellow plugs and I
can assure you they *don't* fall out or break.

Many do. Some suffer from masonry crumbling, or the masonry simply snaps.
Most people fail to clear the dust out, resulting in a weak bond. And the
ida that you can reliably safely support a ton on a bit of 5mm wire sideways
strikes me as decidedly optimistic.

I wasn't suggesting supporting a ton on one screw, I was just pointing
out that big screws are unnecessary. It is of course necessary to
ensure that the screw is soundly fixed in the wall which, I find,
doesn't depend much on the size of the screw. *Longer* screws often
help but *fatter* screws are not a lot of help.

You were. I was pointing out that was not correct. Maybe you're upto speed now.

I said:-
A well fixed steel screw will hold an incredible weight in shear. My
rule of thumb for steel's strength is 40 tons/sq in which gives a
shear strength of somewhere around a ton for a 5mm screw. The screw

That doesn't mean one *should* support so much on a single screw, it
was just pointing out that it's not the screw that is the limiting
factor when fixing things to the wall.

IME it's more often the masonry around the screw or the packing between the 2.


NT

On 25/08/2019 09:40, John wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote in
:

On 24/08/2019 16:45, John wrote:

I wasn't suggesting supporting a ton on one screw, I was just
pointing out that big screws are unnecessary. It is of course
necessary to ensure that the screw is soundly fixed in the wall
which, I find, doesn't depend much on the size of the screw.
*Longer* screws often help but *fatter* screws are not a lot of
help.


I always think the older type screws were better as the root of the
thread was tapered. Modern screws are parallel therefore they don,t
wedge tighter as they are driven in - they also tend to cut into the
plug rather than force it open.


That would be why you don't use self cutting screws with plugs.



They are getting hard to avoid and are often provided with items,


look for chipboard screws, they are seldom self drilling as its just as
bad in MDF and chipboard as in plugs.

... And thanks everyone, I just had to put a cupboard up today. Batten
method worked well. SWMBO could hold the cupboard on the batten while I
screwed it to the wall.

Andy