Just has a letter from UK Power Networks stating their records show I have
one of these which is outdated and needs to be replaced urgently.

Be interested to know why this has suddenly become urgent. ;-)

However, mine was replaced by a single line fuse with neutral link some 40
odd years ago - before I bought this house.

But the point of this post is the diagram on the letter - to allow you to
identify your unit - shows an earth terminal as being part of their
obligatory supply. Last time I checked, this wasn't the case. Have the
regs changed? Can I demand they fit one FOC?

--
*I'm not a paranoid, deranged millionaire. Dammit, I'm a billionaire.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 17/07/2018 14:31, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Just has a letter from UK Power Networks stating their records show I have
one of these which is outdated and needs to be replaced urgently.

Be interested to know why this has suddenly become urgent. ;-)

However, mine was replaced by a single line fuse with neutral link some 40
odd years ago - before I bought this house.

But the point of this post is the diagram on the letter - to allow you to
identify your unit - shows an earth terminal as being part of their
obligatory supply. Last time I checked, this wasn't the case. Have the
regs changed? Can I demand they fit one FOC?

I don't think they're obliged to provide one but in London "they" will
provide PME free if it's available in your area so long as your
installation is up to date (which Adam thought meant the main bonding).

See

https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/in...ices/earthing/

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 17/07/2018 14:57, Robin wrote:
On 17/07/2018 14:31, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Just has a letter from UK Power Networks stating their records show I
have
one of these which is outdated and needs to be replaced urgently.

Be interested to know why this has suddenly become urgent. ;-)

However, mine was replaced by a single line fuse with neutral link
some 40
odd years ago - before I bought this house.

But the point of this post is the diagram on the letter - to allow you to
identify your unit - shows an earth terminal as being part of their
obligatory supply. Last time I checked, this wasn't the case. Have the
regs changed? Can I demand they fit one FOC?

I don't think they're obliged to provide one but in London "they" will
provide PME free if it's available in your area so long as your
installation is up to date (which Adam thought meant the main bonding).

See

https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/in...ices/earthing/


**** knows what the meter installers think up to not do a job. I was
refused a meter installation on a job last week because there was no
earth rod.

True there was was no earth rod, but there was also no CU or indeed any
wiring (other than their incoming supply).

"Why do I need an earth rod now?"
"So I can install the meter"
"The meter does not need an earth"
"But you might not fit one"
"Is that the wrong meter you have brought?"
"No"
"Why have you brought a three phase meter?"

Packed his bags and went.

-
Adam

On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 18:27:30 +0100, ARW
wrote:

On 17/07/2018 14:57, Robin wrote:
On 17/07/2018 14:31, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Just has a letter from UK Power Networks stating their records show I
have
one of these which is outdated and needs to be replaced urgently.

Be interested to know why this has suddenly become urgent. ;-)

However, mine was replaced by a single line fuse with neutral link
some 40
odd years ago - before I bought this house.

But the point of this post is the diagram on the letter - to allow you to
identify your unit - shows an earth terminal as being part of their
obligatory supply. Last time I checked, this wasn't the case. Have the
regs changed? Can I demand they fit one FOC?

I don't think they're obliged to provide one but in London "they" will
provide PME free if it's available in your area so long as your
installation is up to date (which Adam thought meant the main bonding).

See

https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/in...ices/earthing/


**** knows what the meter installers think up to not do a job. I was
refused a meter installation on a job last week because there was no
earth rod.

True there was was no earth rod, but there was also no CU or indeed any
wiring (other than their incoming supply).

"Why do I need an earth rod now?"
"So I can install the meter"
"The meter does not need an earth"
"But you might not fit one"
"Is that the wrong meter you have brought?"
"No"
"Why have you brought a three phase meter?"

Packed his bags and went.

I'd love to have three phase in case I buy an electric car in the
future.

On 17/07/2018 18:33, Scott wrote:

I'd love to have three phase in case I buy an electric car in the
future.


Well you will have to do with a 32A Mode 3 charging point then:-)

Let me know if you want one in the near future, I can apply for the
grant available (75% of the installation cost up to a maximum of £500)
whilst the government are offering grants.

Or if you want to DIY it then I will have to get around to writing a
WIKI page on the subject. It's not as easy as just sticking a 16A or 32A
socket on the outside wall.

--
Adam

On 17/07/2018 19:09, ARW wrote:
Or if you want to DIY it then I will have to get around to writing a
WIKI page on the subject. It's not as easy as just sticking a 16A or 32A
socket on the outside wall.

Is there anything special I should know to go in the new box in my (half
complete) garage?

The house supply is 100A, and the spur out there currently has a 63A RCD.

I have no immediate plans for an electric car, but it would be silly not
to allow for it.

Andy

On 22/07/2018 23:09, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 17/07/2018 19:09, ARW wrote:
Or if you want to DIY it then I will have to get around to writing a
WIKI page on the subject. It's not as easy as just sticking a 16A or
32A socket on the outside wall.

Is there anything special I should know to go in the new box in my (half
complete) garage?

The house supply is 100A, and the spur out there currently has a 63A RCD.

I have no immediate plans for an electric car, but it would be silly not
to allow for it.

Andy

Is that with a 50kw DC charger or the mundane 32A AC one?

On Tuesday, 17 July 2018 18:33:12 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 18:27:30 +0100, ARW
wrote:

On 17/07/2018 14:57, Robin wrote:
On 17/07/2018 14:31, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Just has a letter from UK Power Networks stating their records show I
have
one of these which is outdated and needs to be replaced urgently.

Be interested to know why this has suddenly become urgent. ;-)

However, mine was replaced by a single line fuse with neutral link
some 40
odd years ago - before I bought this house.

But the point of this post is the diagram on the letter - to allow you to
identify your unit - shows an earth terminal as being part of their
obligatory supply. Last time I checked, this wasn't the case. Have the
regs changed? Can I demand they fit one FOC?

I don't think they're obliged to provide one but in London "they" will
provide PME free if it's available in your area so long as your
installation is up to date (which Adam thought meant the main bonding).

See

https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/in...ices/earthing/


**** knows what the meter installers think up to not do a job. I was
refused a meter installation on a job last week because there was no
earth rod.

True there was was no earth rod, but there was also no CU or indeed any
wiring (other than their incoming supply).

"Why do I need an earth rod now?"
"So I can install the meter"
"The meter does not need an earth"
"But you might not fit one"
"Is that the wrong meter you have brought?"
"No"
"Why have you brought a three phase meter?"

Packed his bags and went.

I'd love to have three phase in case I buy an electric car in the
future.

Most electric cars/PHEVs can be charged from a 13a socket. (Overnight).
Intermediate chargers are around 30a single phase.

Rapid charging shortens battery life.
Three phase costs more.

On 22/07/2018 23:09, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 17/07/2018 19:09, ARW wrote:
Or if you want to DIY it then I will have to get around to writing a
WIKI page on the subject. It's not as easy as just sticking a 16A or
32A socket on the outside wall.

Is there anything special I should know to go in the new box in my (half
complete) garage?

The house supply is 100A, and the spur out there currently has a 63A RCD.

I have no immediate plans for an electric car, but it would be silly not
to allow for it.


63A RCD is not very helpful;-).

However the main thing to consider at this point is at least getting a
cable in that is big enough to power your future needs (no such thing a
a cable that is too big).

Mode 3 charging, which is almost certainly going to be the big seller
due to the grants, can supply up to 63A. I suspect that the 32A will be
the big seller due to the available supply.

I'll have to do a Wiki as there is the type of RCD and possibly making
the supply a TT supply.

I'll help you size a suitable cable if it is still possible to get one in.


--
Adam

On 23/07/2018 08:14, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 17 July 2018 18:33:12 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 18:27:30 +0100, ARW
wrote:

On 17/07/2018 14:57, Robin wrote:
On 17/07/2018 14:31, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Just has a letter from UK Power Networks stating their records show I
have
one of these which is outdated and needs to be replaced urgently.

Be interested to know why this has suddenly become urgent. ;-)

However, mine was replaced by a single line fuse with neutral link
some 40
odd years ago - before I bought this house.

But the point of this post is the diagram on the letter - to allow you to
identify your unit - shows an earth terminal as being part of their
obligatory supply. Last time I checked, this wasn't the case. Have the
regs changed? Can I demand they fit one FOC?

I don't think they're obliged to provide one but in London "they" will
provide PME free if it's available in your area so long as your
installation is up to date (which Adam thought meant the main bonding).

See

https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/in...ices/earthing/


**** knows what the meter installers think up to not do a job. I was
refused a meter installation on a job last week because there was no
earth rod.

True there was was no earth rod, but there was also no CU or indeed any
wiring (other than their incoming supply).

"Why do I need an earth rod now?"
"So I can install the meter"
"The meter does not need an earth"
"But you might not fit one"
"Is that the wrong meter you have brought?"
"No"
"Why have you brought a three phase meter?"

Packed his bags and went.

I'd love to have three phase in case I buy an electric car in the
future.

Most electric cars/PHEVs can be charged from a 13a socket. (Overnight).

Any practical[1] mainstream EV could only be charged to a tiny fraction
of its capacity from 13A overnight.


[1] i.e. not the virtue signalling toy ones like yours.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 02:39:05 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 23/07/2018 08:14, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 17 July 2018 18:33:12 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 18:27:30 +0100, ARW
wrote:

On 17/07/2018 14:57, Robin wrote:
On 17/07/2018 14:31, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Just has a letter from UK Power Networks stating their records show I
have
one of these which is outdated and needs to be replaced urgently.

Be interested to know why this has suddenly become urgent. ;-)

However, mine was replaced by a single line fuse with neutral link
some 40
odd years ago - before I bought this house.

But the point of this post is the diagram on the letter - to allow you to
identify your unit - shows an earth terminal as being part of their
obligatory supply. Last time I checked, this wasn't the case. Have the
regs changed? Can I demand they fit one FOC?

I don't think they're obliged to provide one but in London "they" will
provide PME free if it's available in your area so long as your
installation is up to date (which Adam thought meant the main bonding).

See

https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/in...ices/earthing/


**** knows what the meter installers think up to not do a job. I was
refused a meter installation on a job last week because there was no
earth rod.

True there was was no earth rod, but there was also no CU or indeed any
wiring (other than their incoming supply).

"Why do I need an earth rod now?"
"So I can install the meter"
"The meter does not need an earth"
"But you might not fit one"
"Is that the wrong meter you have brought?"
"No"
"Why have you brought a three phase meter?"

Packed his bags and went.

I'd love to have three phase in case I buy an electric car in the
future.

Most electric cars/PHEVs can be charged from a 13a socket. (Overnight).

Any practical[1] mainstream EV could only be charged to a tiny fraction
of its capacity from 13A overnight.


[1] i.e. not the virtue signalling toy ones like yours.

--
Cheers,

John.

Drivel. As usual you are "expert" on something you have zero knowledge and experience of.

No-one runs their electric car to depletion. Or anywhere near.
Only supercars have very large batteries.
Most have batteries of 40 Kwh or less.
Many have less than 20 Kwh.
Easily capable of recharging overnight on 13a socket.

The reason for these special sockets is so that in the future they can be separately metered and charged for at a much higher rate to make up for fuel tax losses.

None of this will ever happen. If everyone had an electric car and was charging it overnight, the system could not cope, especially charging at a fast rate.
The proles will be back on public transport, few people will be able to afford an (electric) car.

Depreciation is huge. No-one wants a SH electric car due to potential battery replacement costs.

Plus there probably isn't enough lithium/neodymium to go round.

On 24/07/2018 06:56, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 02:39:05 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:


Any practical[1] mainstream EV could only be charged to a tiny
fraction of its capacity from 13A overnight.


[1] i.e. not the virtue signalling toy ones like yours.

-- Cheers,

John.

Drivel. As usual you are "expert" on something you have zero
knowledge and experience of.

Its simple arithmetic harry. 13A @ 240V for 8H is ~25kWh - about the
same energy content as that contained in 5L of petrol.

No-one runs their electric car to depletion. Or anywhere near.

You say that like its a good thing!

While its understandable, since the pain of actually running out of
power is considerable, it means even less of the energy stored is
available for use. Less of a problem if you have "loads" in the first
place, but more difficult when you need all the range you can get.

Only supercars have very large batteries.

For some version of "very large".

Once "normal" normal EVs have even larger batteries,


Most have batteries of 40 Kwh or less. Many have less than 20 Kwh.

Indeed - both far too small.

Easily capable of recharging overnight on 13a socket.

The 20kWh one could, the 40kWh one would get to just over half charged
in 8 hours.

The reason for these special sockets is so that in the future they
can be separately metered and charged for at a much higher rate to
make up for fuel tax losses.

The reason for the special sockets is (for now at least) so that one can
use a more appropriate charge rate.

I can't see separate metering at elevated tax rates being a big selling
point.

None of this will ever happen. If everyone had an electric car and
was charging it overnight, the system could not cope, especially
charging at a fast rate. The proles will be back on public transport,
few people will be able to afford an (electric) car.

Depreciation is huge. No-one wants a SH electric car due to potential
battery replacement costs.

Can't disagree with either of those.

Plus there probably isn't enough lithium/neodymium to go round.

Lithium is less of a problem than many expect. The irony being all that
surplus Thorium that gets dug up with the other rare earth elements.
Makes you wonder why no one has thought of using that for generating
electricity.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 24/07/2018 11:56, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 06:56, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 02:39:05 UTC+1, John RummÂ* wrote:


Any practical[1] mainstream EV could only be charged to a tiny
fraction of its capacity from 13A overnight.


[1] i.e. not the virtue signalling toy ones like yours.

-- Cheers,

John.

Drivel. As usual you are "expert" on something you have zero
knowledge and experience of.

Its simple arithmetic harry. 13A @ 240V for 8H is ~25kWh - about the
same energy content as that contained in 5L of petrol.

No-one runs their electric car to depletion. Or anywhere near.

You say that like its a good thing!

While its understandable, since the pain of actually running out of
power is considerable, it means even less of the energy stored is
available for use. Less of a problem if you have "loads" in the first
place, but more difficult when you need all the range you can get.


You only need a gallon of batteries to get it going again don't you?


--
Adam

On 24/07/2018 19:16, ARW wrote:
On 24/07/2018 11:56, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 06:56, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 02:39:05 UTC+1, John RummÂ* wrote:


Any practical[1] mainstream EV could only be charged to a tiny
fraction of its capacity from 13A overnight.


[1] i.e. not the virtue signalling toy ones like yours.

-- Cheers,

John.

Drivel. As usual you are "expert" on something you have zero
knowledge and experience of.

Its simple arithmetic harry. 13A @ 240V for 8H is ~25kWh - about the
same energy content as that contained in 5L of petrol.

No-one runs their electric car to depletion. Or anywhere near.

You say that like its a good thing!

While its understandable, since the pain of actually running out of
power is considerable, it means even less of the energy stored is
available for use. Less of a problem if you have "loads" in the first
place, but more difficult when you need all the range you can get.


You only need a gallon of batteries to get it going again don't you?

I can see a market for some kind of portable power bank for getting a EV
to the nearest charging point... kind of like the power banks for your
phone.

(perhaps a hole on the dashboard that says "Insert 400 x Alkaline AA
cells here)




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm

While its understandable, since the pain of actually running out of
power is considerable,


You only need a gallon of batteries to get it going again don't you?

I can see a market for some kind of portable power bank for getting a EV
to the nearest charging point... kind of like the power banks for your
phone.


Havent the RAC started to equip a few of their vans with something like
that?

The AA said they would at one time but I dont know how far they progressed
it.

Both organisations only intended to give enough charge to enable a stranded
EV to get to a proper charging point.
To do more would probably mean having some vehicles equipped with or towing
a reasonably large generator.
Perhaps owners of fairground rides can branch out into a new business.

GH


GH

On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 23:24:21 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
(perhaps a hole on the dashboard that says "Insert 400 x Alkaline AA
cells here)

I foresee a Poundland / RAC joint venture.

Owain

On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 11:56:59 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 06:56, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 02:39:05 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:


Any practical[1] mainstream EV could only be charged to a tiny
fraction of its capacity from 13A overnight.


[1] i.e. not the virtue signalling toy ones like yours.

-- Cheers,

John.

Drivel. As usual you are "expert" on something you have zero
knowledge and experience of.

Its simple arithmetic harry. 13A @ 240V for 8H is ~25kWh - about the
same energy content as that contained in 5L of petrol.

No-one runs their electric car to depletion. Or anywhere near.

You say that like its a good thing!

While its understandable, since the pain of actually running out of
power is considerable, it means even less of the energy stored is
available for use. Less of a problem if you have "loads" in the first
place, but more difficult when you need all the range you can get.

Only supercars have very large batteries.

For some version of "very large".

Once "normal" normal EVs have even larger batteries,


Most have batteries of 40 Kwh or less. Many have less than 20 Kwh.

Indeed - both far too small.

Easily capable of recharging overnight on 13a socket.

The 20kWh one could, the 40kWh one would get to just over half charged
in 8 hours.

Nobody runs their battery to depletion.
Plus there will be charge points at workplaces.
Batteries of more than 20Kwh will be rare.



The reason for these special sockets is so that in the future they
can be separately metered and charged for at a much higher rate to
make up for fuel tax losses.

The reason for the special sockets is (for now at least) so that one can
use a more appropriate charge rate.

I can't see separate metering at elevated tax rates being a big selling
point.


It's not a selling point. It's what will happen in the future when electric cars are the norm.
If you can't see this you're not clever.
Just as zero road tax is a temporary inducement.

The motors used on electric cars are around six times as efficient as ICE
Plus energy is recovered by regeneration.
Transport costs/losses for electricity are negligible.
Also electricity can be generated using gas.
Plus they can be recharged for free with home PV power.

The cost of infra-structure is the problem.

On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 02:39:05 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 23/07/2018 08:14, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 17 July 2018 18:33:12 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 18:27:30 +0100, ARW
wrote:

On 17/07/2018 14:57, Robin wrote:
On 17/07/2018 14:31, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Just has a letter from UK Power Networks stating their records show I
have
one of these which is outdated and needs to be replaced urgently.

Be interested to know why this has suddenly become urgent. ;-)

However, mine was replaced by a single line fuse with neutral link
some 40
odd years ago - before I bought this house.

But the point of this post is the diagram on the letter - to allow you to
identify your unit - shows an earth terminal as being part of their
obligatory supply. Last time I checked, this wasn't the case. Have the
regs changed? Can I demand they fit one FOC?

I don't think they're obliged to provide one but in London "they" will
provide PME free if it's available in your area so long as your
installation is up to date (which Adam thought meant the main bonding).

See

https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/in...ices/earthing/


**** knows what the meter installers think up to not do a job. I was
refused a meter installation on a job last week because there was no
earth rod.

True there was was no earth rod, but there was also no CU or indeed any
wiring (other than their incoming supply).

"Why do I need an earth rod now?"
"So I can install the meter"
"The meter does not need an earth"
"But you might not fit one"
"Is that the wrong meter you have brought?"
"No"
"Why have you brought a three phase meter?"

Packed his bags and went.

I'd love to have three phase in case I buy an electric car in the
future.

Most electric cars/PHEVs can be charged from a 13a socket. (Overnight).

Any practical[1] mainstream EV could only be charged to a tiny fraction
of its capacity from 13A overnight.


[1] i.e. not the virtue signalling toy ones like yours.

It's a full sized car that outperforms equivalent ICE cars.
I am a trend setter. Inferior intellects follow on.

On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 23:24:21 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 19:16, ARW wrote:
On 24/07/2018 11:56, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 06:56, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 02:39:05 UTC+1, John RummÂ* wrote:


Any practical[1] mainstream EV could only be charged to a tiny
fraction of its capacity from 13A overnight.


[1] i.e. not the virtue signalling toy ones like yours.

-- Cheers,

John.

Drivel. As usual you are "expert" on something you have zero
knowledge and experience of.

Its simple arithmetic harry. 13A @ 240V for 8H is ~25kWh - about the
same energy content as that contained in 5L of petrol.

No-one runs their electric car to depletion. Or anywhere near.

You say that like its a good thing!

While its understandable, since the pain of actually running out of
power is considerable, it means even less of the energy stored is
available for use. Less of a problem if you have "loads" in the first
place, but more difficult when you need all the range you can get.


You only need a gallon of batteries to get it going again don't you?

I can see a market for some kind of portable power bank for getting a EV
to the nearest charging point... kind of like the power banks for your
phone.


--
We have them.
It's called a tow truck.

On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 11:56:59 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 06:56, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 02:39:05 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:


Any practical[1] mainstream EV could only be charged to a tiny
fraction of its capacity from 13A overnight.


[1] i.e. not the virtue signalling toy ones like yours.

-- Cheers,

John.

Drivel. As usual you are "expert" on something you have zero
knowledge and experience of.

Its simple arithmetic harry. 13A @ 240V for 8H is ~25kWh - about the
same energy content as that contained in 5L of petrol.

As the efficiency of electric cars is around six times that of ICE,.....= six liters of petrol.
Plus regeneration = yet more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...rgy_efficiency

On 25/07/2018 16:27, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 11:56:59 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 06:56, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 02:39:05 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:


Any practical[1] mainstream EV could only be charged to a tiny
fraction of its capacity from 13A overnight.


[1] i.e. not the virtue signalling toy ones like yours.

-- Cheers,

John.

Drivel. As usual you are "expert" on something you have zero
knowledge and experience of.

Its simple arithmetic harry. 13A @ 240V for 8H is ~25kWh - about the
same energy content as that contained in 5L of petrol.

As the efficiency of electric cars is around six times that of ICE,.....= six liters of petrol.
Plus regeneration = yet more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...rgy_efficiency



And the efficiency when you stick the heater on in winter?


--
Adam

On 25/07/2018 16:19, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 23:24:21 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 19:16, ARW wrote:
On 24/07/2018 11:56, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 06:56, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 02:39:05 UTC+1, John RummÂ* wrote:


Any practical[1] mainstream EV could only be charged to a tiny
fraction of its capacity from 13A overnight.


[1] i.e. not the virtue signalling toy ones like yours.

-- Cheers,

John.

Drivel. As usual you are "expert" on something you have zero
knowledge and experience of.

Its simple arithmetic harry. 13A @ 240V for 8H is ~25kWh - about the
same energy content as that contained in 5L of petrol.

No-one runs their electric car to depletion. Or anywhere near.

You say that like its a good thing!

While its understandable, since the pain of actually running out of
power is considerable, it means even less of the energy stored is
available for use. Less of a problem if you have "loads" in the first
place, but more difficult when you need all the range you can get.


You only need a gallon of batteries to get it going again don't you?

I can see a market for some kind of portable power bank for getting a EV
to the nearest charging point... kind of like the power banks for your
phone.


We have them.
It's called a tow truck.


And the future ones will not have tow ropes but extension leads.

--
Adam

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 08:14:56 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 11:56:59 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 06:56, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 02:39:05 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:


Any practical[1] mainstream EV could only be charged to a tiny
fraction of its capacity from 13A overnight.


[1] i.e. not the virtue signalling toy ones like yours.

-- Cheers,

John.

Drivel. As usual you are "expert" on something you have zero
knowledge and experience of.

Its simple arithmetic harry. 13A @ 240V for 8H is ~25kWh - about the
same energy content as that contained in 5L of petrol.

No-one runs their electric car to depletion. Or anywhere near.

You say that like its a good thing!

While its understandable, since the pain of actually running out of
power is considerable, it means even less of the energy stored is
available for use. Less of a problem if you have "loads" in the first
place, but more difficult when you need all the range you can get.

Only supercars have very large batteries.

For some version of "very large".

Once "normal" normal EVs have even larger batteries,


Most have batteries of 40 Kwh or less. Many have less than 20 Kwh.

Indeed - both far too small.

Easily capable of recharging overnight on 13a socket.

The 20kWh one could, the 40kWh one would get to just over half charged
in 8 hours.

Nobody runs their battery to depletion.
Plus there will be charge points at workplaces.

Only the ones with carparks.

Batteries of more than 20Kwh will be rare.



The reason for these special sockets is so that in the future they
can be separately metered and charged for at a much higher rate to
make up for fuel tax losses.

The reason for the special sockets is (for now at least) so that one can
use a more appropriate charge rate.

I can't see separate metering at elevated tax rates being a big selling
point.


It's not a selling point. It's what will happen in the future when electric cars are the norm.
If you can't see this you're not clever.
Just as zero road tax is a temporary inducement.

The motors used on electric cars are around six times as efficient as ICE
Plus energy is recovered by regeneration.
Transport costs/losses for electricity are negligible.
Also electricity can be generated using gas.
Plus they can be recharged for free with home PV power.

The cost of infra-structure is the problem.

On Wednesday, 25 July 2018 17:39:31 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 25/07/2018 16:27, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 11:56:59 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 06:56, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 02:39:05 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:


Any practical[1] mainstream EV could only be charged to a tiny
fraction of its capacity from 13A overnight.


[1] i.e. not the virtue signalling toy ones like yours.

-- Cheers,

John.

Drivel. As usual you are "expert" on something you have zero
knowledge and experience of.

Its simple arithmetic harry. 13A @ 240V for 8H is ~25kWh - about the
same energy content as that contained in 5L of petrol.

As the efficiency of electric cars is around six times that of ICE,.....= six liters of petrol.
Plus regeneration = yet more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...rgy_efficiency



And the efficiency when you stick the heater on in winter?


--
Adam
As you should know electric heaters are 100% efficient.
It depends on whether it has a heat pump or a resistance heater.
I just put a fan heater in the car for 15 minutes before I set off.
Also it has heated seats which are all that's necessary in Winter.

On Wednesday, 25 July 2018 17:40:23 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 25/07/2018 16:19, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 23:24:21 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 19:16, ARW wrote:
On 24/07/2018 11:56, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 06:56, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 02:39:05 UTC+1, John RummÂ* wrote:


Any practical[1] mainstream EV could only be charged to a tiny
fraction of its capacity from 13A overnight.


[1] i.e. not the virtue signalling toy ones like yours.

-- Cheers,

John.

Drivel. As usual you are "expert" on something you have zero
knowledge and experience of.

Its simple arithmetic harry. 13A @ 240V for 8H is ~25kWh - about the
same energy content as that contained in 5L of petrol.

No-one runs their electric car to depletion. Or anywhere near.

You say that like its a good thing!

While its understandable, since the pain of actually running out of
power is considerable, it means even less of the energy stored is
available for use. Less of a problem if you have "loads" in the first
place, but more difficult when you need all the range you can get.


You only need a gallon of batteries to get it going again don't you?

I can see a market for some kind of portable power bank for getting a EV
to the nearest charging point... kind of like the power banks for your
phone.


We have them.
It's called a tow truck.


And the future ones will not have tow ropes but extension leads.

--
Adam

Connected to where?

On Wednesday, 25 July 2018 18:03:47 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 08:14:56 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 11:56:59 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 06:56, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 02:39:05 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:


Any practical[1] mainstream EV could only be charged to a tiny
fraction of its capacity from 13A overnight.


[1] i.e. not the virtue signalling toy ones like yours.

-- Cheers,

John.

Drivel. As usual you are "expert" on something you have zero
knowledge and experience of.

Its simple arithmetic harry. 13A @ 240V for 8H is ~25kWh - about the
same energy content as that contained in 5L of petrol.

No-one runs their electric car to depletion. Or anywhere near.

You say that like its a good thing!

While its understandable, since the pain of actually running out of
power is considerable, it means even less of the energy stored is
available for use. Less of a problem if you have "loads" in the first
place, but more difficult when you need all the range you can get.

Only supercars have very large batteries.

For some version of "very large".

Once "normal" normal EVs have even larger batteries,


Most have batteries of 40 Kwh or less. Many have less than 20 Kwh.

Indeed - both far too small.

Easily capable of recharging overnight on 13a socket.

The 20kWh one could, the 40kWh one would get to just over half charged
in 8 hours.

Nobody runs their battery to depletion.
Plus there will be charge points at workplaces.

Only the ones with carparks.

Batteries of more than 20Kwh will be rare.



The reason for these special sockets is so that in the future they
can be separately metered and charged for at a much higher rate to
make up for fuel tax losses.

The reason for the special sockets is (for now at least) so that one can
use a more appropriate charge rate.

I can't see separate metering at elevated tax rates being a big selling
point.


It's not a selling point. It's what will happen in the future when electric cars are the norm.
If you can't see this you're not clever.
Just as zero road tax is a temporary inducement.

The motors used on electric cars are around six times as efficient as ICE
Plus energy is recovered by regeneration.
Transport costs/losses for electricity are negligible.
Also electricity can be generated using gas.
Plus they can be recharged for free with home PV power.

The cost of infra-structure is the problem.

Tsk.
The gov. is going to put a charge point in every lamp post.
Ha Ha!

On Wednesday, 25 July 2018 18:13:57 UTC+1, harry wrote:

As you should know electric heaters are 100% efficient.

But only if you ignore all the distribution network losses
and the thermodynamic in-efficiency of thermal electricity
generation which is still a large part of the supply mix.

John

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:17:39 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Wednesday, 25 July 2018 18:03:47 UTC+1, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 08:14:56 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 11:56:59 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 06:56, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 02:39:05 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:


Any practical[1] mainstream EV could only be charged to a tiny
fraction of its capacity from 13A overnight.


[1] i.e. not the virtue signalling toy ones like yours.

-- Cheers,

John.

Drivel. As usual you are "expert" on something you have zero
knowledge and experience of.

Its simple arithmetic harry. 13A @ 240V for 8H is ~25kWh - about the
same energy content as that contained in 5L of petrol.

No-one runs their electric car to depletion. Or anywhere near.

You say that like its a good thing!

While its understandable, since the pain of actually running out of
power is considerable, it means even less of the energy stored is
available for use. Less of a problem if you have "loads" in the first
place, but more difficult when you need all the range you can get.

Only supercars have very large batteries.

For some version of "very large".

Once "normal" normal EVs have even larger batteries,


Most have batteries of 40 Kwh or less. Many have less than 20 Kwh.

Indeed - both far too small.

Easily capable of recharging overnight on 13a socket.

The 20kWh one could, the 40kWh one would get to just over half charged
in 8 hours.

Nobody runs their battery to depletion.
Plus there will be charge points at workplaces.

Only the ones with carparks.

Batteries of more than 20Kwh will be rare.



The reason for these special sockets is so that in the future they
can be separately metered and charged for at a much higher rate to
make up for fuel tax losses.

The reason for the special sockets is (for now at least) so that one can
use a more appropriate charge rate.

I can't see separate metering at elevated tax rates being a big selling
point.


It's not a selling point. It's what will happen in the future when electric cars are the norm.
If you can't see this you're not clever.
Just as zero road tax is a temporary inducement.

The motors used on electric cars are around six times as efficient as ICE
Plus energy is recovered by regeneration.
Transport costs/losses for electricity are negligible.
Also electricity can be generated using gas.
Plus they can be recharged for free with home PV power.

The cost of infra-structure is the problem.

Tsk.
The gov. is going to put a charge point in every lamp post.
Ha Ha!

And what is the typical ratio of parked cars to lamp posts?

On Wednesday, 25 July 2018 16:27:05 UTC+1, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 11:56:59 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 06:56, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 02:39:05 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:


Any practical[1] mainstream EV could only be charged to a tiny
fraction of its capacity from 13A overnight.


[1] i.e. not the virtue signalling toy ones like yours.

-- Cheers,

John.

Drivel. As usual you are "expert" on something you have zero
knowledge and experience of.

Its simple arithmetic harry. 13A @ 240V for 8H is ~25kWh - about the
same energy content as that contained in 5L of petrol.

As the efficiency of electric cars is around six times that of ICE,.....= six liters of petrol.
Plus regeneration = yet more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...rgy_efficiency

Correction, 30 litres of petrol.
One KWh takes me 3-5 miles depending on hilliness and speed.

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:13:54 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Wednesday, 25 July 2018 17:39:31 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 25/07/2018 16:27, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 11:56:59 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 06:56, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 02:39:05 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:


Any practical[1] mainstream EV could only be charged to a tiny
fraction of its capacity from 13A overnight.


[1] i.e. not the virtue signalling toy ones like yours.

-- Cheers,

John.

Drivel. As usual you are "expert" on something you have zero
knowledge and experience of.

Its simple arithmetic harry. 13A @ 240V for 8H is ~25kWh - about the
same energy content as that contained in 5L of petrol.

As the efficiency of electric cars is around six times that of ICE,.....= six liters of petrol.
Plus regeneration = yet more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...rgy_efficiency



And the efficiency when you stick the heater on in winter?


--
Adam
As you should know electric heaters are 100% efficient.
It depends on whether it has a heat pump or a resistance heater.
I just put a fan heater in the car for 15 minutes before I set off.
Also it has heated seats which are all that's necessary in Winter.

Is that needed? I thought you could turn on the car heating using a
mobile phone app while the vehicle is still plugged into the 'shore'
supply.

On 25/07/2018 18:22, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:13:54 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Wednesday, 25 July 2018 17:39:31 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 25/07/2018 16:27, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 11:56:59 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 06:56, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 02:39:05 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:


Any practical[1] mainstream EV could only be charged to a tiny
fraction of its capacity from 13A overnight.


[1] i.e. not the virtue signalling toy ones like yours.

-- Cheers,

John.

Drivel. As usual you are "expert" on something you have zero
knowledge and experience of.

Its simple arithmetic harry. 13A @ 240V for 8H is ~25kWh - about the
same energy content as that contained in 5L of petrol.

As the efficiency of electric cars is around six times that of ICE,.....= six liters of petrol.
Plus regeneration = yet more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...rgy_efficiency



And the efficiency when you stick the heater on in winter?


--
Adam
As you should know electric heaters are 100% efficient.
It depends on whether it has a heat pump or a resistance heater.
I just put a fan heater in the car for 15 minutes before I set off.
Also it has heated seats which are all that's necessary in Winter.

Is that needed? I thought you could turn on the car heating using a
mobile phone app while the vehicle is still plugged into the 'shore'
supply.


You can (or might be able to) with some cars.

And ten minutes down the road? U values of cars are not good.

--
Adam

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 18:57:03 +0100, ARW
wrote:

On 25/07/2018 18:22, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:13:54 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Wednesday, 25 July 2018 17:39:31 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 25/07/2018 16:27, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 11:56:59 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 06:56, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 02:39:05 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:


Any practical[1] mainstream EV could only be charged to a tiny
fraction of its capacity from 13A overnight.


[1] i.e. not the virtue signalling toy ones like yours.

-- Cheers,

John.

Drivel. As usual you are "expert" on something you have zero
knowledge and experience of.

Its simple arithmetic harry. 13A @ 240V for 8H is ~25kWh - about the
same energy content as that contained in 5L of petrol.

As the efficiency of electric cars is around six times that of ICE,.....= six liters of petrol.
Plus regeneration = yet more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...rgy_efficiency



And the efficiency when you stick the heater on in winter?


--
Adam
As you should know electric heaters are 100% efficient.
It depends on whether it has a heat pump or a resistance heater.
I just put a fan heater in the car for 15 minutes before I set off.
Also it has heated seats which are all that's necessary in Winter.

Is that needed? I thought you could turn on the car heating using a
mobile phone app while the vehicle is still plugged into the 'shore'
supply.


You can (or might be able to) with some cars.

I thought my sister-in-law said the Nissan Leaf worked in this way.

And ten minutes down the road? U values of cars are not good.

True, but the same would apply to using a fan heater. as suggested.

On 25/07/2018 18:20, Scott wrote:

And what is the typical ratio of parked cars to lamp posts?


I only know of one


https://goo.gl/maps/mnqMhxKAfYv

--
Adam

On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 19:06:31 +0100, ARW
wrote:

On 25/07/2018 18:20, Scott wrote:

And what is the typical ratio of parked cars to lamp posts?


I only know of one


https://goo.gl/maps/mnqMhxKAfYv

Exactly. That number of charging points won't charge all the cars in
the street. You would need one charging point per bay and there is
certainly not one streetlamp per bay (or two bays) at present. It
cannot be assumed everyone will be able to charge a car at work.

On Wednesday, 25 July 2018 16:14:58 UTC+1, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 11:56:59 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 06:56, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 02:39:05 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:


Any practical[1] mainstream EV could only be charged to a tiny
fraction of its capacity from 13A overnight.


[1] i.e. not the virtue signalling toy ones like yours.

-- Cheers,

John.

Drivel. As usual you are "expert" on something you have zero
knowledge and experience of.

Its simple arithmetic harry. 13A @ 240V for 8H is ~25kWh - about the
same energy content as that contained in 5L of petrol.

No-one runs their electric car to depletion. Or anywhere near.

You say that like its a good thing!

While its understandable, since the pain of actually running out of
power is considerable, it means even less of the energy stored is
available for use. Less of a problem if you have "loads" in the first
place, but more difficult when you need all the range you can get.

Only supercars have very large batteries.

For some version of "very large".

Once "normal" normal EVs have even larger batteries,


Most have batteries of 40 Kwh or less. Many have less than 20 Kwh.

Indeed - both far too small.

Easily capable of recharging overnight on 13a socket.

The 20kWh one could, the 40kWh one would get to just over half charged
in 8 hours.

Nobody runs their battery to depletion.
Plus there will be charge points at workplaces.
Batteries of more than 20Kwh will be rare.

I see, so EV batteries are more capacity than anyone needs?


The reason for these special sockets is so that in the future they
can be separately metered and charged for at a much higher rate to
make up for fuel tax losses.

The reason for the special sockets is (for now at least) so that one can
use a more appropriate charge rate.

I can't see separate metering at elevated tax rates being a big selling
point.


It's not a selling point. It's what will happen in the future when electric cars are the norm.
If you can't see this you're not clever.
Just as zero road tax is a temporary inducement.

The motors used on electric cars are around six times as efficient as ICE

I didn't realise they were over 100% efficient


Plus energy is recovered by regeneration.

a little yes. It's not practical to recover a high percentage on a car.


Transport costs/losses for electricity are negligible.

that'll come as welcome news to the distribution companies


Also electricity can be generated using gas.
Plus they can be recharged for free with home PV power.

Where do I get these free solar systems?


The cost of infra-structure is the problem.

one of them anyway.


NT

On Wednesday, 25 July 2018 16:19:53 UTC+1, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 23:24:21 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 19:16, ARW wrote:
On 24/07/2018 11:56, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 06:56, harry wrote:

No-one runs their electric car to depletion. Or anywhere near.

You say that like its a good thing!

While its understandable, since the pain of actually running out of
power is considerable, it means even less of the energy stored is
available for use. Less of a problem if you have "loads" in the first
place, but more difficult when you need all the range you can get.


You only need a gallon of batteries to get it going again don't you?

I can see a market for some kind of portable power bank for getting a EV
to the nearest charging point... kind of like the power banks for your
phone.

We have them.
It's called a tow truck.

if you've used one lately you'll know how pricey they are


NT

On Wednesday, 25 July 2018 18:17:42 UTC+1, harry wrote:

The cost of infra-structure is the problem.

Tsk.
The gov. is going to put a charge point in every lamp post.
Ha Ha!

Great, for billions of pounds we can have one charge point per 20 cars.


NT

On 25/07/2018 18:14, harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 25 July 2018 17:40:23 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 25/07/2018 16:19, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 23:24:21 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 19:16, ARW wrote:
On 24/07/2018 11:56, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 06:56, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 02:39:05 UTC+1, John RummÂ* wrote:


Any practical[1] mainstream EV could only be charged to a tiny
fraction of its capacity from 13A overnight.


[1] i.e. not the virtue signalling toy ones like yours.

-- Cheers,

John.

Drivel. As usual you are "expert" on something you have zero
knowledge and experience of.

Its simple arithmetic harry. 13A @ 240V for 8H is ~25kWh - about the
same energy content as that contained in 5L of petrol.

No-one runs their electric car to depletion. Or anywhere near.

You say that like its a good thing!

While its understandable, since the pain of actually running out of
power is considerable, it means even less of the energy stored is
available for use. Less of a problem if you have "loads" in the first
place, but more difficult when you need all the range you can get.


You only need a gallon of batteries to get it going again don't you?

I can see a market for some kind of portable power bank for getting a EV
to the nearest charging point... kind of like the power banks for your
phone.


We have them.
It's called a tow truck.


And the future ones will not have tow ropes but extension leads.


Connected to where?


Probably to some sort of electrical power source on the recovery vehicle
would be my best guess.



--
Adam

On 25/07/2018 19:03, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 18:57:03 +0100, ARW
wrote:

On 25/07/2018 18:22, Scott wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:13:54 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Wednesday, 25 July 2018 17:39:31 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
On 25/07/2018 16:27, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 11:56:59 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 24/07/2018 06:56, harry wrote:
On Tuesday, 24 July 2018 02:39:05 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:


Any practical[1] mainstream EV could only be charged to a tiny
fraction of its capacity from 13A overnight.


[1] i.e. not the virtue signalling toy ones like yours.

-- Cheers,

John.

Drivel. As usual you are "expert" on something you have zero
knowledge and experience of.

Its simple arithmetic harry. 13A @ 240V for 8H is ~25kWh - about the
same energy content as that contained in 5L of petrol.

As the efficiency of electric cars is around six times that of ICE,.....= six liters of petrol.
Plus regeneration = yet more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...rgy_efficiency



And the efficiency when you stick the heater on in winter?


--
Adam
As you should know electric heaters are 100% efficient.
It depends on whether it has a heat pump or a resistance heater.
I just put a fan heater in the car for 15 minutes before I set off.
Also it has heated seats which are all that's necessary in Winter.

Is that needed? I thought you could turn on the car heating using a
mobile phone app while the vehicle is still plugged into the 'shore'
supply.


You can (or might be able to) with some cars.

I thought my sister-in-law said the Nissan Leaf worked in this way.

And ten minutes down the road? U values of cars are not good.

True, but the same would apply to using a fan heater. as suggested.



The air con in my van is very nice.

It costs less to use it on a MPG basis than opening the windows of the van.

Try that with an electric Leaf:-)





--
Adam

In article ,
Scott wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 19:06:31 +0100, ARW
wrote:

On 25/07/2018 18:20, Scott wrote:

And what is the typical ratio of parked cars to lamp posts?


I only know of one


https://goo.gl/maps/mnqMhxKAfYv

Exactly. That number of charging points won't charge all the cars in
the street. You would need one charging point per bay and there is
certainly not one streetlamp per bay (or two bays) at present. It
cannot be assumed everyone will be able to charge a car at work.

our village doesn't have any street lights

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle