On 09/06/2018 19:18, F wrote:
On 09/06/2018 18:45, Graeme wrote:
In message , F
writes

Whether a meter change is part of an 'offer' or is routine, a smart
meter is not compulsory. You can turn it down and insist on a
mechanical meter.

What is the situation for someone who moves house, and finds the new
(to them) house has a smart meter?* Can the new owner insist the smart
meter is replaced with a traditional mechanical meter?* Just idle
curiosity.

GIYF...
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/e...r-removed.html

******** not answering the question written by someone who has swallowed
the "smart meters are spiffing and so /modern/!" crap.

--
Max Demian

wrote in message
...
On Friday, 1 June 2018 13:51:40 UTC+1, Davey wrote:
My electricity supplier has recommended a tariff which would save me
money over the year, but signing up for it also includes this as part
of the T&Cs:

"By signing up to the tariff you are registering your interest for a
Smart Meter. This means we may contact you in the future to discuss a
smart meter installation as and when you become eligible."

Would this lock me into having to have a Smart Meter? I see no way that
I can have this tariff and exclude this clause. I bet they would say
that I was eligible as soon as I signed up.

Smart meters can turn off the supply and that's a fact.

No its not with plenty of them.

Whether the provider use that facility is another matter.
If people are in debt (the usual reason for disconnection) then
smart meters come into their own. The supplier can remotely
adjust the tarrif and recover the debt without disconnection.

Dont need a smartmeter to do that. Smartmeters just record
the amount of electricity used and when it was used, and its
the back office function that applys the tariff, turning the
use into the amount charged. And only the back office
function can do that because only it knows the plan
detail, what the standing charge per day is, what
discount for payment on time is, etc etc etc.

This is not new, the prepaid meters have done this
for years i.e. put £1 on the card, get 80p of electric.

Just as true of not getting a discount if you are not paying promptly.

This is by arrangement with the customer
and not something they would do covertly.

But is something that could always
be done covertly with stupid meters.

Advantages to customers is clearing the debt whilst remaining
on supply and the company has a huge cost saving by not
having to have a little man come out and make adjustments.

Why do they need to use midgets to do that ?

And why not little women too ?

Someone mentioned hacking and it is possible. GCHQ intervened
last year to strengthen the national infrastructer against hacking.

Again we are far from the original question. No you can't be forced to
accept one but the tarrif you choose may depend on you saying yes.

And in fact the more complex time of use tariffs arent even possible without
one.

On 09/06/2018 20:50, Max Demian wrote:
On 09/06/2018 19:18, F wrote:
On 09/06/2018 18:45, Graeme wrote:
In message , F
writes

Whether a meter change is part of an 'offer' or is routine, a smart
meter is not compulsory. You can turn it down and insist on a
mechanical meter.

What is the situation for someone who moves house, and finds the new
(to them) house has a smart meter?* Can the new owner insist the
smart meter is replaced with a traditional mechanical meter?* Just
idle curiosity.

GIYF...
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/e...r-removed.html


******** not answering the question written by someone who has swallowed
the "smart meters are spiffing and so /modern/!" crap.

I think you will find it answers the question I was asked.

For example, 'We asked Smart Energy GB, the company behind the roll-out,
if it was possible to get one removed and if this would attract a cost.

It said a consumer can ask for a smart meter to be removed at any time,
but a supplier could levy a charge for the cost of the switch – although
it admitted it hadn't heard of this happening'.

And, 'I also approached the Big Six energy providers to ask if they
would charge a fee for the removal of a smart meter. They all said if a
smart meter needed to be removed the issue would be addressed on a
case-by-case basis and there should not be a charge'.

--
F

On Sat, 9 Jun 2018 14:32:37 +0100
alan_m wrote:

On 06/06/2018 20:04, Davey wrote:

Smart can trun off the supply, (electric and gas) but the suppliers
has to meet certain criteria before they do.

No I didn't, somebody else wrote that.

--
Davey.

"Davey" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 9 Jun 2018 14:32:37 +0100
alan_m wrote:

On 06/06/2018 20:04, Davey wrote:

Smart can trun off the supply, (electric and gas) but the suppliers
has to meet certain criteria before they do.

No I didn't,

He didn't say you did. Count the s

somebody else wrote that.

That's what he said.

On Sat, 9 Jun 2018 12:02:47 +0100, F wrote:

Is that actually the case though? And how many suppliers actually
do
routine meter replacement? Note supplier not DNO, the meter is not
the DNO's responsibilty theirs stops at the cut out.
Quite 1967, 1980 amd 1996 here...

Whether a meter change is part of an 'offer' or is routine, a smart
meter is not compulsory. You can turn it down and insist on a mechanical
meter.

Mechanical? They are still fitting mechanical meters? Our 1996 meter
is electronic.

What does ARW see in new builds?

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 06/06/2018 14:34, wrote:
On Tuesday, 5 June 2018 17:05:48 UTC+1, Dave W wrote:
On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 22:31:22 +0100, Robin wrote:

On 04/06/2018 22:14, Rod Speed wrote:


Smart meters cant turn your supply off.

Yep, meters are not yet autonomous. But at least some suppliers can use
some smart meters in the UK to disconnect remotely the supply - and have
been able to do so since at least 2010 (when Ofgem wrote to suppliers to
remind them of their licence obligations before doing so). Ditto
remotely switching from credit to prepayment.

But not all suppliers. EDF in my case. We have yet to see what the
next generation meters can do.
--
Dave

Smart meters can and do turn of the supply remotely (gas and electric)but suppliers have to meet certain criteria before doing so.


It's just asking for us DIY people to bypass the meter.

Bill

On 06/06/2018 21:21, Max Demian wrote:

If they have to gain access to my property, I have a chance of arguing
the point, possibly in court.


A four foot crowbar over the nose end often offends.

Bill

On 08/06/2018 10:37, wrote:


Going back the original question - ALL suppliers are (by statute) obliged to replace meters every twenty years (or less). Smart meters are the only option once a meter is up for replacement and yes I know there are meters out there much older than twenty years.
I worked in the industry for over thirty years. Within the industry it's also acknowledged that the customer gains little to no advantage. Sure you can see how much it costs to boil your kettel but unless you're really anal about it the novelty soon wears off and you carry on as before.
Will they force you to have one? At the moment (depending on the T&Cs) no but they will 'strongly' encourage you to have one. They may say that the rate per kWh they are quoting is dependent on installing one.
Again I seem to have wandered away from the original question - sorry


No, that was relevant and useful.

Bill

On 10/06/2018 00:39, F wrote:
On 09/06/2018 20:50, Max Demian wrote:
On 09/06/2018 19:18, F wrote:
On 09/06/2018 18:45, Graeme wrote:
In message , F
writes

Whether a meter change is part of an 'offer' or is routine, a smart
meter is not compulsory. You can turn it down and insist on a
mechanical meter.

What is the situation for someone who moves house, and finds the new
(to them) house has a smart meter?* Can the new owner insist the
smart meter is replaced with a traditional mechanical meter?* Just
idle curiosity.

GIYF...
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/e...r-removed.html



******** not answering the question written by someone who has
swallowed the "smart meters are spiffing and so /modern/!" crap.

I think you will find it answers the question I was asked.

For example, 'We asked Smart Energy GB, the company behind the roll-out,
if it was possible to get one removed and if this would attract a cost.

It said a consumer can ask for a smart meter to be removed at any time,
but a supplier could levy a charge for the cost of the switch – although
it admitted it hadn't heard of this happening'.

And, 'I also approached the Big Six energy providers to ask if they
would charge a fee for the removal of a smart meter. They all said if a
smart meter needed to be removed the issue would be addressed on a
case-by-case basis and there should not be a charge'.

So they /will/ remove the smart meter if you insist, and they /might/
charge you an unspecified (and possibly exorbitant) amount to do so.

The rest of the article is pro-smartmeter fluff.

--
Max Demian

On 09/06/2018 23:07, Rod Speed wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Friday, 1 June 2018 13:51:40 UTC+1, DaveyÂ* wrote:

My electricity supplier has recommended a tariff which would save me
money over the year, but signing up for it also includes this as part
of the T&Cs:

"By signing up to the tariff you are registering your interest for a
Smart Meter. This means we may contact you in the future to discuss a
smart meter installation as and when you become eligible."

Would this lock me into having to have a Smart Meter? I see no way that
I can have this tariff and exclude this clause. I bet they would say
that I was eligible as soon as I signed up.

Smart meters can turn off the supply and that's a fact.

No its not with plenty of them.

Whether the provider use that facility is another matter.
If people are in debt (the usual reason for disconnection) then
smart meters come into their own. The supplier can remotely
adjust the tarrif and recover the debt without disconnection.

Dont need a smartmeter to do that. Smartmeters just record
the amount of electricity used and when it was used, and its
the back office function that applys the tariff, turning the
use into the amount charged. And only the back office
function can do that because only it knows the plan
detail, what the standing charge per day is, what
discount for payment on time is, etc etc etc.

They are supposed to be able to charge different rates at different
times, but it's not clear how they do this. To do it as you suggest, it
would have to sent back the usage hour by hour, and possibly minute by
minute - which would require a very reliable (and busy) remote
connection. Otherwise the supplier could send the rate structure to the
meter which would adjust its rates accordingly.

--
Max Demian

"Max Demian" wrote in message
...
On 09/06/2018 23:07, Rod Speed wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Friday, 1 June 2018 13:51:40 UTC+1, Davey wrote:

My electricity supplier has recommended a tariff which would save me
money over the year, but signing up for it also includes this as part
of the T&Cs:

"By signing up to the tariff you are registering your interest for a
Smart Meter. This means we may contact you in the future to discuss a
smart meter installation as and when you become eligible."

Would this lock me into having to have a Smart Meter? I see no way that
I can have this tariff and exclude this clause. I bet they would say
that I was eligible as soon as I signed up.

Smart meters can turn off the supply and that's a fact.

No its not with plenty of them.

Whether the provider use that facility is another matter.
If people are in debt (the usual reason for disconnection) then
smart meters come into their own. The supplier can remotely
adjust the tarrif and recover the debt without disconnection.

Dont need a smartmeter to do that. Smartmeters just record
the amount of electricity used and when it was used, and its
the back office function that applys the tariff, turning the
use into the amount charged. And only the back office
function can do that because only it knows the plan
detail, what the standing charge per day is, what
discount for payment on time is, etc etc etc.

They are supposed to be able to charge different rates at different times,

Of course they must do to be able to support time of use tariffs.

but it's not clear how they do this.

Its very clear how they do that, they keep track of KWH used by time band.

To do it as you suggest, it would have to sent back the usage hour by
hour, and possibly minute by minute

Nope, just keep track of KWHs used by time band and report
that back whenever that is specified. No different to just keeping
track of KWHs used regardless of time band except with more
totals kept.

- which would require a very reliable (and busy) remote connection.

Nope. Just keep track of the KWHs used by time band and report back
as required.

Otherwise the supplier could send the rate structure to the meter which
would adjust its rates accordingly.

Makes a lot more sense to keep track of KWHs by
time band and report back at the specified rate.

On 10/06/2018 10:59, Max Demian wrote:
On 10/06/2018 00:39, F wrote:
On 09/06/2018 20:50, Max Demian wrote:
On 09/06/2018 19:18, F wrote:
On 09/06/2018 18:45, Graeme wrote:
In message , F
writes

Whether a meter change is part of an 'offer' or is routine, a
smart meter is not compulsory. You can turn it down and insist on
a mechanical meter.

What is the situation for someone who moves house, and finds the
new (to them) house has a smart meter?* Can the new owner insist
the smart meter is replaced with a traditional mechanical meter?
Just idle curiosity.

GIYF...
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/e...r-removed.html




******** not answering the question written by someone who has
swallowed the "smart meters are spiffing and so /modern/!" crap.

I think you will find it answers the question I was asked.

For example, 'We asked Smart Energy GB, the company behind the
roll-out, if it was possible to get one removed and if this would
attract a cost.

It said a consumer can ask for a smart meter to be removed at any
time, but a supplier could levy a charge for the cost of the switch –
although it admitted it hadn't heard of this happening'.

And, 'I also approached the Big Six energy providers to ask if they
would charge a fee for the removal of a smart meter. They all said if
a smart meter needed to be removed the issue would be addressed on a
case-by-case basis and there should not be a charge'.

So they /will/ remove the smart meter if you insist, and they /might/
charge you an unspecified (and possibly exorbitant) amount to do so.

The rest of the article is pro-smartmeter fluff.

So the question was answered. As for the rest of the article, and
whether you like its contents or not, that is totally irrelevant.

You seem to have a problem that's nothing to do with what was asked.

--
F

On Sun, 10 Jun 2018 11:04:47 +0100, Max Demian wrote:

They are supposed to be able to charge different rates at different
times, but it's not clear how they do this. To do it as you suggest, it
would have to sent back the usage hour by hour, and possibly minute by
minute -

You can opt for a smart meter to send readings every 30 mins.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 10/06/2018 11:30, F wrote:
On 10/06/2018 10:59, Max Demian wrote:
On 10/06/2018 00:39, F wrote:
On 09/06/2018 20:50, Max Demian wrote:
On 09/06/2018 19:18, F wrote:
On 09/06/2018 18:45, Graeme wrote:
In message , F
writes

Whether a meter change is part of an 'offer' or is routine, a
smart meter is not compulsory. You can turn it down and insist on
a mechanical meter.

What is the situation for someone who moves house, and finds the
new (to them) house has a smart meter?* Can the new owner insist
the smart meter is replaced with a traditional mechanical meter?
Just idle curiosity.

GIYF...
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/e...r-removed.html





******** not answering the question written by someone who has
swallowed the "smart meters are spiffing and so /modern/!" crap.

I think you will find it answers the question I was asked.

For example, 'We asked Smart Energy GB, the company behind the
roll-out, if it was possible to get one removed and if this would
attract a cost.

It said a consumer can ask for a smart meter to be removed at any
time, but a supplier could levy a charge for the cost of the switch –
although it admitted it hadn't heard of this happening'.

And, 'I also approached the Big Six energy providers to ask if they
would charge a fee for the removal of a smart meter. They all said if
a smart meter needed to be removed the issue would be addressed on a
case-by-case basis and there should not be a charge'.

So they /will/ remove the smart meter if you insist, and they /might/
charge you an unspecified (and possibly exorbitant) amount to do so.

The rest of the article is pro-smartmeter fluff.

So the question was answered. As for the rest of the article, and
whether you like its contents or not, that is totally irrelevant.

You seem to have a problem that's nothing to do with what was asked.

The fluff indicates that the answer might be incorrect - it already is
vague - as the writer's mind is elsewhere. Much better to give an
unambiguous answer and then shut up.

--
Max Demian

On 10/06/2018 11:42, Max Demian wrote:
On 10/06/2018 11:30, F wrote:
On 10/06/2018 10:59, Max Demian wrote:
On 10/06/2018 00:39, F wrote:
On 09/06/2018 20:50, Max Demian wrote:
On 09/06/2018 19:18, F wrote:
On 09/06/2018 18:45, Graeme wrote:
In message , F
writes

Whether a meter change is part of an 'offer' or is routine, a
smart meter is not compulsory. You can turn it down and insist
on a mechanical meter.

What is the situation for someone who moves house, and finds the
new (to them) house has a smart meter?* Can the new owner insist
the smart meter is replaced with a traditional mechanical meter?
Just idle curiosity.

GIYF...
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/e...r-removed.html






******** not answering the question written by someone who has
swallowed the "smart meters are spiffing and so /modern/!" crap.

I think you will find it answers the question I was asked.

For example, 'We asked Smart Energy GB, the company behind the
roll-out, if it was possible to get one removed and if this would
attract a cost.

It said a consumer can ask for a smart meter to be removed at any
time, but a supplier could levy a charge for the cost of the switch
– although it admitted it hadn't heard of this happening'.

And, 'I also approached the Big Six energy providers to ask if they
would charge a fee for the removal of a smart meter. They all said
if a smart meter needed to be removed the issue would be addressed
on a case-by-case basis and there should not be a charge'.

So they /will/ remove the smart meter if you insist, and they /might/
charge you an unspecified (and possibly exorbitant) amount to do so.

The rest of the article is pro-smartmeter fluff.

So the question was answered. As for the rest of the article, and
whether you like its contents or not, that is totally irrelevant.

You seem to have a problem that's nothing to do with what was asked.

The fluff indicates that the answer might be incorrect - it already is
vague - as the writer's mind is elsewhere. Much better to give an
unambiguous answer and then shut up.

You need to improve your reading skills. The answers came from two
sources: 'Smart Energy GB' for one, and 'the Big Six energy suppliers
who all said...'.

You seem to be in a bad mood and angry so I'll leave it there lest I'm
dragged down to your level.

--
F

On Friday, 1 June 2018 13:51:40 UTC+1, Davey wrote:
My electricity supplier has recommended a tariff which would save me
money over the year, but signing up for it also includes this as part
of the T&Cs:

"By signing up to the tariff you are registering your interest for a
Smart Meter. This means we may contact you in the future to discuss a
smart meter installation as and when you become eligible."

Would this lock me into having to have a Smart Meter? I see no way that
I can have this tariff and exclude this clause. I bet they would say
that I was eligible as soon as I signed up.

--
Davey.

Geting away from smart meters for awhile I've just been reading about the accuracy of meters. Of the people who complain about the size of their bill 24% of the meters tested were found to be inaccurate. These are UK Gov figures for 2016. There are approx 56 million meters in the UK so could add up to a huge overcharge if the readings are high, but they don't say whether the meters were up or down

"Max Demian" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 10/06/2018 11:30, F wrote:
On 10/06/2018 10:59, Max Demian wrote:
On 10/06/2018 00:39, F wrote:
On 09/06/2018 20:50, Max Demian wrote:
On 09/06/2018 19:18, F wrote:
On 09/06/2018 18:45, Graeme wrote:
In message , F
writes

Whether a meter change is part of an 'offer' or is routine, a smart
meter is not compulsory. You can turn it down and insist on a
mechanical meter.

What is the situation for someone who moves house, and finds the new
(to them) house has a smart meter? Can the new owner insist the
smart meter is replaced with a traditional mechanical meter? Just
idle curiosity.

GIYF...
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/e...r-removed.html





******** not answering the question written by someone who has
swallowed the "smart meters are spiffing and so /modern/!" crap.

I think you will find it answers the question I was asked.

For example, 'We asked Smart Energy GB, the company behind the
roll-out, if it was possible to get one removed and if this would
attract a cost.

It said a consumer can ask for a smart meter to be removed at any time,
but a supplier could levy a charge for the cost of the switch –
although it admitted it hadn't heard of this happening'.

And, 'I also approached the Big Six energy providers to ask if they
would charge a fee for the removal of a smart meter. They all said if a
smart meter needed to be removed the issue would be addressed on a
case-by-case basis and there should not be a charge'.

So they /will/ remove the smart meter if you insist, and they /might/
charge you an unspecified (and possibly exorbitant) amount to do so.

The rest of the article is pro-smartmeter fluff.

So the question was answered. As for the rest of the article, and whether
you like its contents or not, that is totally irrelevant.

You seem to have a problem that's nothing to do with what was asked.

The fluff indicates that the answer might be incorrect - it already is
vague - as the writer's mind is elsewhere. Much better to give an
unambiguous answer and then shut up.

Not when it is an article on smart meters in general and that
question is a minor part of what is being discussed and there
is no clear unambiguous documented statement on that question.

wrote in message
...
On Friday, 1 June 2018 13:51:40 UTC+1, Davey wrote:
My electricity supplier has recommended a tariff which would save me
money over the year, but signing up for it also includes this as part
of the T&Cs:

"By signing up to the tariff you are registering your interest for a
Smart Meter. This means we may contact you in the future to discuss a
smart meter installation as and when you become eligible."

Would this lock me into having to have a Smart Meter? I see no way that
I can have this tariff and exclude this clause. I bet they would say
that I was eligible as soon as I signed up.

Geting away from smart meters for awhile I've just been
reading about the accuracy of meters. Of the people who
complain about the size of their bill 24% of the meters
tested were found to be inaccurate. These are UK Gov
figures for 2016. There are approx 56 million meters in
the UK so could add up to a huge overcharge if the
readings are high, but they don't say whether the meters
were up or down

Its unlikely most of them were reading too low, because those
who had those are unlikely to have complained about their meter.

On 10/06/2018 18:23, Rod Speed wrote:
wrote in message

Geting away from smart meters for awhile I've just been
reading about the accuracy of meters. Of the people who
complain about the size of their bill 24% of the meters
tested were found to be inaccurate.

How inaccurate?

These are UK Gov
figures for 2016. There are approx 56 million meters in
the UK so could add up to a huge overcharge if the
readings are high, but they don't say whether the meters
were up or down

Its unlikely most of them were reading too low, because those
who had those are unlikely to have complained about their meter.

How would they know?

--
Max Demian

"Max Demian" wrote in message
...
On 10/06/2018 18:23, Rod Speed wrote:
wrote in message

Geting away from smart meters for awhile I've just been
reading about the accuracy of meters. Of the people who
complain about the size of their bill 24% of the meters
tested were found to be inaccurate.

How inaccurate?

These are UK Gov
figures for 2016. There are approx 56 million meters in
the UK so could add up to a huge overcharge if the
readings are high, but they don't say whether the meters
were up or down

Its unlikely most of them were reading too low, because those
who had those are unlikely to have complained about their meter.

How would they know?

How would who know what ?

On 10/06/2018 21:58, Rod Speed wrote:


"Max Demian" wrote in message
...
On 10/06/2018 18:23, Rod Speed wrote:
wrote in message

Geting away from smart meters for awhile I've just been
reading about the accuracy of meters. Of the people who
complain about the size of their bill 24% of the meters
tested were found to be inaccurate.

How inaccurate?

These are UK Gov
figures for 2016. There are approx 56 million meters in
the UK so could add up to a huge overcharge if the
readings are high, but they don't say whether the meters
were up or down

Its unlikely most of them were reading too low, because those
who had those are unlikely to have complained about their meter.

How would they know?

How would who know what ?

If the user complained that his bill was too high and they come to check
the meter, how would he know in advance whether it was high or low reading?

--
Max Demian

"Max Demian" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 10/06/2018 21:58, Rod Speed wrote:


"Max Demian" wrote in message
...
On 10/06/2018 18:23, Rod Speed wrote:
wrote in message

Geting away from smart meters for awhile I've just been
reading about the accuracy of meters. Of the people who
complain about the size of their bill 24% of the meters
tested were found to be inaccurate.

How inaccurate?

These are UK Gov
figures for 2016. There are approx 56 million meters in
the UK so could add up to a huge overcharge if the
readings are high, but they don't say whether the meters
were up or down

Its unlikely most of them were reading too low, because those
who had those are unlikely to have complained about their meter.

How would they know?

How would who know what ?

If the user complained that his bill was too high and they come to check
the meter, how would he know in advance whether it was high or low
reading?

He would be very unlikely to complain and demand
a meter check if the bill was lower than expected.

On 10/06/2018 23:38, Rod Speed wrote:


"Max Demian" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 10/06/2018 21:58, Rod Speed wrote:


"Max Demian" wrote in message
...
On 10/06/2018 18:23, Rod Speed wrote:
wrote in message

Geting away from smart meters for awhile I've just been
reading about the accuracy of meters. Of the people who
complain about the size of their bill 24% of the meters
tested were found to be inaccurate.

How inaccurate?

These are UK Gov
figures for 2016. There are approx 56 million meters in
the UK so could add up to a huge overcharge if the
readings are high, but they don't say whether the meters
were up or down

Its unlikely most of them were reading too low, because those
who had those are unlikely to have complained about their meter.

How would they know?

How would who know what ?

If the user complained that his bill was too high and they come to
check the meter, how would he know in advance whether it was high or
low reading?

He would be very unlikely to complain and demand
a meter check if the bill was lower than expected.

Does anyone think their bill is "lower than expected"? What would be the
basis of his expectations?

--
Max Demian

"Max Demian" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 10/06/2018 23:38, Rod Speed wrote:


"Max Demian" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 10/06/2018 21:58, Rod Speed wrote:


"Max Demian" wrote in message
...
On 10/06/2018 18:23, Rod Speed wrote:
wrote in message

Geting away from smart meters for awhile I've just been
reading about the accuracy of meters. Of the people who
complain about the size of their bill 24% of the meters
tested were found to be inaccurate.

How inaccurate?

These are UK Gov
figures for 2016. There are approx 56 million meters in
the UK so could add up to a huge overcharge if the
readings are high, but they don't say whether the meters
were up or down

Its unlikely most of them were reading too low, because those
who had those are unlikely to have complained about their meter.

How would they know?

How would who know what ?

If the user complained that his bill was too high and they come to check
the meter, how would he know in advance whether it was high or low
reading?

He would be very unlikely to complain and demand
a meter check if the bill was lower than expected.

Does anyone think their bill is "lower than expected"?

Irrelevant to whether those that get a bill like that are
unlikely to be demanding that their meter be checked.

? What would be the basis of his expectations?

Previous bills obviously.

On 10/06/2018 01:57, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 9 Jun 2018 12:02:47 +0100, F wrote:

Is that actually the case though? And how many suppliers actually
do
routine meter replacement? Note supplier not DNO, the meter is not
the DNO's responsibilty theirs stops at the cut out.
Quite 1967, 1980 amd 1996 here...

Whether a meter change is part of an 'offer' or is routine, a smart
meter is not compulsory. You can turn it down and insist on a mechanical
meter.

Mechanical? They are still fitting mechanical meters? Our 1996 meter
is electronic.

What does ARW see in new builds?

I couldn't think of any word other than mechanical when I was trying to
describe an alternative to smart! Electronic was the word and it's
nowhere near the one I used!!

Thanks.

--
F

On Sat, 9 Jun 2018 11:13:40 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Friday, 1 June 2018 13:51:40 UTC+1, Davey wrote:
My electricity supplier has recommended a tariff which would save me
money over the year, but signing up for it also includes this as part
of the T&Cs:

"By signing up to the tariff you are registering your interest for a
Smart Meter. This means we may contact you in the future to discuss a
smart meter installation as and when you become eligible."

Would this lock me into having to have a Smart Meter? I see no way that
I can have this tariff and exclude this clause. I bet they would say
that I was eligible as soon as I signed up.

--
Davey.
h
Smart meters can turn off the supply and that's a fact. Whether the provider use that facility is another matter.
If people are in debt (the usual reason for disconnection) then smart meters come into their own. The supplier can remotely adjust the tarrif and recover the debt without disconnection. This is not new, the prepaid meters have done this for years i.e. put £1 on the card, get 80p of electric. This is by arrangement with the customer and not something they would do covertly. Advantages to customers is clearing the debt whilst remaining on supply and the company has a huge cost saving by not having to have a little man come out and make adjustments.
Someone mentioned hacking and it is possible. GCHQ intervened last year to strengthen the national infrastructer against hacking.

Again we are far from the original question. No you can't be forced to accept one but the tarrif you choose may depend on you saying yes.

No it isn't a fact. No doubt many can. Mine can't.
--
Dave W

On 09/06/2018 2:30 PM, alan_m wrote:
On 04/06/2018 22:14, Rod Speed wrote:

Smart meters cant turn your supply off.


A reply to the question from British Gas....

Quote:

No. With smart meters, energy suppliers have no more powers to disconnect than with a standard meter. On those extremely rare occasions when this is necessary it will be possible to disconnect the meter remotely but for customers in payment difficulties, we will always look for alternatives to disconnection.

Only regulation stops the supply being disconnected. However, from the
above it appears that the meter can be remotely controlled to cut off
the supply. If the regulations change to, say, cut off the supply during
certain periods of the day when demand exceeds supply this will be
possible with smart meters.


There are many cases of disconnections due to unresolved bills. There
is indeed a relay inside the meter.

The problem is not at the single consumer end, which 'IS' hackable,
but, at the utilities end. Several energy companies have been hit by
'Dragonfly'. It has been said they operate like a 'state-sponsored
operation'. Many countries have been hacked by them and it is thought
that Dragonfly may well have huge area maps of distribution networks
and, 'key' data.

Or, how about a ****ed off utilities worker who programs
disconnections for the future?

Individuals and whole areas can be switched out. Because power
stations have to be switched regulated to match demand, and, because it
takes days to 'reboot', software hackers only need to operate every few
days to keep the system in turmoil.

To say it will never happen may be true; to say it cannot happen isn't.

As with banks, utility companies cant wait for a total disconnect
between company and user. Then again, no human interaction also means no
'eyes' at the user end. At which point, I'm not so sure whether
companies or users will win or lose?

I just searched for 'Dragonfly' and found this, some interesting
reading. Particularly the UK response to major outages in other
countries, abridged dramatically by me, 'It can't happen to us cos we
are much more advanced'....
https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/201...cybersecurity/

I love technology and where it is tending but, it's so open to attack.

The tech I aim to set myself up with now I am retired is:

Single high intensity LED emergency lighting.

Solar charger and car batteries.

And, something everyone should have regardless, Fleece blankets with the
Thermal Carbon Tape/Ribbon. It gives heat up to 50C at 2p a day. No
chance of shorts or fires. Can be machine washed. Cheap at £15 and £23
for single or double.

I like the idea of still having a wired landline too.

Don't forget the dry beans.


Ray.

"RayL12" wrote in message
news
On 09/06/2018 2:30 PM, alan_m wrote:
On 04/06/2018 22:14, Rod Speed wrote:

Smart meters cant turn your supply off.


A reply to the question from British Gas....

Quote:

No. With smart meters, energy suppliers have no more powers to disconnect than with a standard meter. On those extremely rare occasions when this is necessary it will be possible to disconnect the meter remotely but for customers in payment difficulties, we will always look for alternatives to disconnection.

Only regulation stops the supply being disconnected. However, from the
above it appears that the meter can be remotely controlled to cut off
the supply. If the regulations change to, say, cut off the supply during
certain periods of the day when demand exceeds supply this will be
possible with smart meters.

There are many cases of disconnections due to unresolved bills. There is
indeed a relay inside the meter.

Depends on the meter.

The problem is not at the single consumer end, which 'IS' hackable,

No reason why it can't be as secure as your mobile phone.

but, at the utilities end. Several energy companies have been hit by
'Dragonfly'. It has been said they operate like a 'state-
sponsored operation'. Many countries have been hacked by them and it is
thought that Dragonfly may well have huge area maps of distribution
networks and, 'key' data.

Thats not going to affect the end consumer disconnection wise.

Or, how about a ****ed off utilities worker who programs disconnections
for the future?

Trivially fixed by the operation connecting you again.

No worse than a blackout caused by a major storm etc.

Individuals and whole areas can be switched out.

Just as true of the stupid meters.

Because power stations have to be switched regulated to match demand, and,
because it takes days to 'reboot',

Only with black starts of generators.
Not with lots smart meters turned off.

In fact it would have to be lots of smart meters turned
on that would see the grid brought to its knees, turning
off lots of smart meters wouldnt do that.

software hackers only need to operate every few days to keep the system in
turmoil.

True of the remote control of the grid, not with smart meters.

To say it will never happen may be true; to say it cannot happen isn't.

It cant happen with smart meters.

As with banks, utility companies cant wait for a total disconnect between
company and user.

There can never be a total disconnect with either.

Then again, no human interaction also means no 'eyes' at the user end.

And yet that works fine with the mobile phone system.

At which point, I'm not so sure whether companies or users will win or
lose?

Both win because automation works much better than
having humans involved in trivia like meter reading.

We have seen that with the phone system. Hardly any phone calls
need a human to make the connection anymore, and that works fine.

Automatic billing and payment for all sorts of things like
phone bills, net services etc etc etc all work fine too. The
most you have to do now is check the statements to check
that nothing got ****ed up and get the ****ups fixed.

I just searched for 'Dragonfly' and found this, some interesting reading.
Particularly the UK response to major outages in other countries, abridged
dramatically by me, 'It can't happen to us cos we are much more
advanced'....
https://unearthed.greenpeace.org/201...cybersecurity/

And yet the banking system and mobile phone system works fine anyway.

I love technology and where it is tending but, it's so open to attack.

So is the more primitive systems it replaces.

The tech I aim to set myself up with now I am retired is:

Single high intensity LED emergency lighting.

Solar charger and car batteries.

I have gone much further and have done all my lighting now.

Yes its possible some hacker may work out how to turn
my lights on and off, but its hardly the end of civilisation
as we know it if they do and its very bloody unlikely that
anyone will bother, even those I have ****ed over on usenet.

Tho I must admit that if I could work out how to set fire
to some ****wit moderator's place remotely without it
being possible to pin that on me, after I have remotely
cancelled his house insurance months earlier, I would
very likely do that in the blink of an eye.

And, something everyone should have regardless, Fleece blankets with the
Thermal Carbon Tape/Ribbon. It gives heat up to 50C at 2p a day. No chance
of shorts or fires. Can be machine washed. Cheap at £15 and £23 for single
or double.

I use one of those on the armchair I spend most
of the time I am not in bed for and dont use
other heating anymore. Passive solar house tho.

I like the idea of still having a wired landline too.

I dont now with the new mobile plans that give
unlimited calls and texts to any landline and mobile
in the country and 1GB of data for just $10 a month.

Our VDSL2 service doesnt support POTS/PSTN
anymore, the phone service is VOIP over that.

Don't forget the dry beans.

Not going to need them.

On Fri, 1 Jun 2018 13:51:38 +0100
Davey wrote:

My electricity supplier has recommended a tariff which would save me
money over the year, but signing up for it also includes this as part
of the T&Cs:

"By signing up to the tariff you are registering your interest for a
Smart Meter. This means we may contact you in the future to discuss a
smart meter installation as and when you become eligible."

Would this lock me into having to have a Smart Meter? I see no way
that I can have this tariff and exclude this clause. I bet they would
say that I was eligible as soon as I signed up.


I got to the point today where I have to choose my next tariff, and
they have tightened the Smart Meter point:

"We'll contact you to discuss Smart

By choosing this tariff you agree to be contacted for the installation
of a smart meter and, where eligible, have one installed for each fuel
we supply".

Which sounds as though they WILL install smart meter if I choose this
tariff. No thanks.

--
Davey.

In message
Davey wrote:

On Fri, 1 Jun 2018 13:51:38 +0100
Davey wrote:

My electricity supplier has recommended a tariff which would save me
money over the year, but signing up for it also includes this as part
of the T&Cs:

"By signing up to the tariff you are registering your interest for a
Smart Meter. This means we may contact you in the future to discuss a
smart meter installation as and when you become eligible."

Would this lock me into having to have a Smart Meter? I see no way
that I can have this tariff and exclude this clause. I bet they would
say that I was eligible as soon as I signed up.


I got to the point today where I have to choose my next tariff, and
they have tightened the Smart Meter point:

"We'll contact you to discuss Smart

By choosing this tariff you agree to be contacted for the installation
of a smart meter and, where eligible, have one installed for each fuel
we supply".

Which sounds as though they WILL install smart meter if I choose this
tariff. No thanks.

You can always change supplier and find one that does not force you down
that road. My outgoing supplier's tariff was cheaper than the previous
year but meant installing a smart meter. No thanks, I jumped ship!!

--
John Bryan

On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 18:31:11 +0100
John Bryan wrote:

In message
Davey wrote:

On Fri, 1 Jun 2018 13:51:38 +0100
Davey wrote:

My electricity supplier has recommended a tariff which would save
me money over the year, but signing up for it also includes this
as part of the T&Cs:

"By signing up to the tariff you are registering your interest for
a Smart Meter. This means we may contact you in the future to
discuss a smart meter installation as and when you become
eligible."

Would this lock me into having to have a Smart Meter? I see no way
that I can have this tariff and exclude this clause. I bet they
would say that I was eligible as soon as I signed up.


I got to the point today where I have to choose my next tariff, and
they have tightened the Smart Meter point:

"We'll contact you to discuss Smart

By choosing this tariff you agree to be contacted for the
installation of a smart meter and, where eligible, have one
installed for each fuel we supply".

Which sounds as though they WILL install smart meter if I choose
this tariff. No thanks.

You can always change supplier and find one that does not force you
down that road. My outgoing supplier's tariff was cheaper than the
previous year but meant installing a smart meter. No thanks, I jumped
ship!!


I might take a look at that. The tariff I will be going on to, with no
smartmeter, has no exit fee, so I could switch at any time.

--
Davey.

"John Bryan" wrote in message
...
In message
Davey wrote:

On Fri, 1 Jun 2018 13:51:38 +0100
Davey wrote:

My electricity supplier has recommended a tariff which would save me
money over the year, but signing up for it also includes this as part
of the T&Cs:

"By signing up to the tariff you are registering your interest for a
Smart Meter. This means we may contact you in the future to discuss a
smart meter installation as and when you become eligible."

Would this lock me into having to have a Smart Meter? I see no way
that I can have this tariff and exclude this clause. I bet they would
say that I was eligible as soon as I signed up.


I got to the point today where I have to choose my next tariff, and
they have tightened the Smart Meter point:

"We'll contact you to discuss Smart

By choosing this tariff you agree to be contacted for the installation
of a smart meter and, where eligible, have one installed for each fuel
we supply".

Which sounds as though they WILL install smart meter if I choose this
tariff. No thanks.

You can always change supplier and find one that does not force you down
that road. My outgoing supplier's tariff was cheaper than the previous
year but meant installing a smart meter. No thanks, I jumped ship!!

Mad. What did you expect the dastardly smart meter to do to you ?

On 30/06/2018 03:36, Rod Speed wrote:


"John Bryan" wrote in message
...
In message
******** Davey wrote:

On Fri, 1 Jun 2018 13:51:38 +0100
Davey wrote:

My electricity supplier has recommended a tariff which would save me
money over the year, but signing up for it also includes this as part
of the T&Cs:

"By signing up to the tariff you are registering your interest for a
Smart Meter. This means we may contact you in the future to discuss a
smart meter installation as and when you become eligible."

Would this lock me into having to have a Smart Meter? I see no way
that I can have this tariff and exclude this clause. I bet they would
say that I was eligible as soon as I signed up.


I got to the point today where I have to choose my next tariff, and
they have tightened the Smart Meter point:

"We'll contact you to discuss Smart

By choosing this tariff you agree to be contacted for the installation
of a smart meter and, where eligible, have one installed for each fuel
we supply".

Which sounds as though they WILL install smart meter if I choose this
tariff. No thanks.

You can always change supplier and find one that does not force you down
that road. My outgoing supplier's tariff was cheaper than the previous
year but meant installing a smart meter. No thanks, I jumped ship!!

Mad. What did you expect the dastardly smart meter to do to you ?

May be charge more for peak usage.

--
Michael Chare

"Michael Chare" wrote in message
news
On 30/06/2018 03:36, Rod Speed wrote:


"John Bryan" wrote in message
...
In message
Davey wrote:

On Fri, 1 Jun 2018 13:51:38 +0100
Davey wrote:

My electricity supplier has recommended a tariff which would save me
money over the year, but signing up for it also includes this as part
of the T&Cs:

"By signing up to the tariff you are registering your interest for a
Smart Meter. This means we may contact you in the future to discuss a
smart meter installation as and when you become eligible."

Would this lock me into having to have a Smart Meter? I see no way
that I can have this tariff and exclude this clause. I bet they would
say that I was eligible as soon as I signed up.


I got to the point today where I have to choose my next tariff, and
they have tightened the Smart Meter point:

"We'll contact you to discuss Smart

By choosing this tariff you agree to be contacted for the installation
of a smart meter and, where eligible, have one installed for each fuel
we supply".

Which sounds as though they WILL install smart meter if I choose this
tariff. No thanks.

You can always change supplier and find one that does not force you down
that road. My outgoing supplier's tariff was cheaper than the previous
year but meant installing a smart meter. No thanks, I jumped ship!!

Mad. What did you expect the dastardly smart meter to do to you ?

May be charge more for peak usage.

But he said it would be cheaper to use that supplier.