On 19/10/2017 11:08, Michael Chare wrote:
On 19/10/2017 09:36, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 19/10/2017 00:22, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 18 October 2017 16:54:02 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
On R4 You and Yours today - for those who may wish to listen again -
there was a bit about some filling stations providing fast charge
points. At last, you might say.

And they interviewed an actual punter with a Leaf. Worth a listen. ;-)

One point he made was he charges it at home at 12p per kW.hr. A full
charge costing about £2 and taking him about 80 miles.

The fast charge points will cost 50p per kW.hr and only charge to 80%.

So as a rough guestimate 7 quid for 70 miles. Not much different from
a small diesel. And, of course, no duty on that electricity, unlike
petrol and diesel.

Most electric cars are charged overnight at home

That's because most are only town runabouts. If filling stations are
getting round to fitting fast charging points, it suggests they are
going
to be used for longer distances.


We have a Renault Zoe (Wifeys car which I enjoy driving) which has a
useable range of 185miles, will easily do an 80 mile destination and
back, hardly a town runabout. We charge it overnight at 7p/kWh, about
£3 including inefficiencies.
We did not get an EV based on the cost of the fuel, it is just plain
more enjoyable driving.

Yes, travelling to destinations more than 85/90 miles away starts to
require a topup on the road. We bought it as a runabout for the missus
mainly, longer distances we use the legacy vehicle, but battery
technology already exists in the lab which will allow 500 or more mile
range which for me is all the driving I want to do in a day.

We are lucky and have off road parking so can easily charge at home so
an EV is a perfect solution.
Having said that I do appreciate that the existing infrastructure
makes it difficult for people in flats etc with no off road parking,
but it will get better in time (it has to, and there are plenty of
bucks to be made in doing so).

Andy

Does the car have a heater?


Yes the Zoe has a heater and full aircon based on a reversible heatpump.
It is full auto so you just set the temp and forget.

On 19/10/2017 15:45, harry wrote:
On Thursday, 19 October 2017 09:36:34 UTC+1, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 19/10/2017 00:22, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 18 October 2017 16:54:02 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
On R4 You and Yours today - for those who may wish to listen again -
there was a bit about some filling stations providing fast charge
points. At last, you might say.

And they interviewed an actual punter with a Leaf. Worth a listen. ;-)

One point he made was he charges it at home at 12p per kW.hr. A full
charge costing about £2 and taking him about 80 miles.

The fast charge points will cost 50p per kW.hr and only charge to 80%.

So as a rough guestimate 7 quid for 70 miles. Not much different from
a small diesel. And, of course, no duty on that electricity, unlike
petrol and diesel.

Most electric cars are charged overnight at home

That's because most are only town runabouts. If filling stations are
getting round to fitting fast charging points, it suggests they are going
to be used for longer distances.


We have a Renault Zoe (Wifeys car which I enjoy driving) which has a
useable range of 185miles, will easily do an 80 mile destination and
back, hardly a town runabout. We charge it overnight at 7p/kWh, about £3
including inefficiencies.
We did not get an EV based on the cost of the fuel, it is just plain
more enjoyable driving.

Yes, travelling to destinations more than 85/90 miles away starts to
require a topup on the road. We bought it as a runabout for the missus
mainly, longer distances we use the legacy vehicle, but battery
technology already exists in the lab which will allow 500 or more mile
range which for me is all the driving I want to do in a day.

We are lucky and have off road parking so can easily charge at home so
an EV is a perfect solution.
Having said that I do appreciate that the existing infrastructure makes
it difficult for people in flats etc with no off road parking, but it
will get better in time (it has to, and there are plenty of bucks to be
made in doing so).

Andy

You never mentioned the battery costs.


With a Zoe you can lease the battery if you wish, bet we bought the
car/battery outright. The battery has an 8 year guarantee.. The battery
is oversized (I believe our 41kWh battery is actually 46kWh. The
charger/battery monitor system allows you 41kWh at full capacity,
feeding in the 'spare' capacity as the battery ages so to the end user
it always seems like you have the full 100% capacity. All Zoes have full
battery monitoring which Renault have access to via a permanent mobile
link and the datasets on battery ageing for all(most?) Zoes are
available for the last 4 or 5 years and are exceeding all expectations
in terms of loss of battery capacity.
It's new technology that has the spotlight on it. I am happy with that
info and on that basis we bought an EV.
Everyone has different expectations and can make their own choices based
on the facts available.

Andy

On 19/10/2017 15:55, harry wrote:
On Thursday, 19 October 2017 13:44:07 UTC+1, Bill Wright wrote:
On 19/10/2017 09:03, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 08:21:49 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

What happens if he needs the heater and the wipers etc as well though?

On my EV there is no heater and the wipers and lights etc run from an
independent auxiliary battery so wouldn't affect the range as such,
especially in the dry and daytime. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

So on a long journey in the rain the wipers and lights would pack up?
What's the capacity of the aux battery? Normal wipers draw between 5 and
10A at 12V so you'd need a big ass battery to keep then working all day
long.

Bill

It's charged from the traction battery.
It's a tiny battery. (No starter motor)
If it goes flat, the car can't be charged, run or anything.


But you can then recharge the 12V battery as normal with a normal car
charger and recover the situation.

The one thing that I will say is the biggest weakpoint at the moment in
EV's IS the 12V battery.
In a Zoe (yawn) the 12V battery is normally replaced every 3 years as
part of the service schedule to prevent being caught out with a failed
battery. As I have said elsewhere if the battery is functioning normally
it is normally continuously being recharged from the traction battery
via a DC/DC converter.

Current (no pun) lead acid batterys used in EV's are standard legacy
vehicle type batterys, and tend to fail early as the lead plates
sulphate up over time - an EV does not have a high current starter motor
being used several times a day to cause the plates to self clean.
Hence the battery fails in lesser time than you would expect.

The 12V battery is there to brovide a keep alive voltage for the cars
main contactor - the 400V traction battery is normally completely
disconnected when the car is 'turned off'.

The 12V supply being used to power the main 400V traction contactor on
startup, and power light/radio and othe low power stuff when the
'engine' is off

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 18 October 2017 16:54:02 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Most electric cars are charged overnight at home

That's because most are only town runabouts.

as many houses in towns don’t have off road parking ie driveway or garage
how would they charge them?

-

On 18/10/2017 21:55, Michael Chare wrote:
On 18/10/2017 20:00, Huge wrote:
On 2017-10-18, Andrew wrote:
On 18/10/2017 16:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
On R4 You and Yours todayÂ* - for those who may wish to listen again -
there was a bit about some filling stations providing fast charge
points.
At last, you might say.

And they interviewed an actual punter with a Leaf. Worth a listen. ;-)

One point he made was he charges it at home at 12p per kW.hr. A full
charge costing about £2 and taking him about 80 miles.

The fast charge points will cost 50p per kW.hr and only charge to 80%.

So as a rough guestimate 7 quid for 70 miles. Not much different from a
small diesel. And, of course, no duty on that electricity, unlike
petrol
and diesel.


The Norwegians are planning to tax (or remove subsidies) from heavy
electric cars. I think they mean ones exceeding 2 tonnes.

This kind of thing (and more) is inevitable. Governments are addicted
to the tax levied on vehicle fuels and will not give them up.


Something most proponents of electric vehicles tend to forget.

That's what smart meters are for :-).

On 18/10/2017 20:47, Brian Reay wrote:
The Gov. still offer not only a generous 'bonus' to help fund a hybrid
or EV, they are also funding the installation of domestic charge points.

Shame the 'govt' isn't using its own money though ....

On 19/10/2017 17:02, Mark wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 18 October 2017 16:54:02 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Most electric cars are charged overnight at home

That's because most are only town runabouts.

as many houses in towns don’t have off road parking ie driveway or garage
how would they charge them?

-



Assuming they actually use the car, then charge it at a public charge
point/supermarket/car park/motorway service
area/hotel/church/brothel/dealer etc

https://www.zap-map.com/live/

On 19/10/2017 16:24, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , mechanic
wrote:

What I don't understand about hybrids is the effective mpg on long
trips? As well as the fuel serving the internal combustion engine
you have the losses from the electricity generator and motors to pay
for, and the weight of the electric system and battery to carry
around. How can the hybrid possibly be as cheap to run as a modern
diesel only car?

You don't have a starter motor or alternator. I'm getting a long-term
measured MPG of about 56. That seems to be rather better than most
smallish petrol cars.


I get that from my medium sized diesel. For a long, mainly motorway, run
I will get around 65mpg. This is as reported by the car so I can't say
how accurate it is Perhaps one day I will get around to measuring it.

wrote:

Is this the DIY Morris Minor EV that was mentioned on the BBC this morning?

I'd rather have the E-type Zero

https://youtu.be/PnPArmzTSjw

On 19/10/17 15:59, mechanic wrote:
On Wed, 18 Oct 2017 21:55:07 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:

Indeed, one of the reasons we went hybrid and not all electric.

What I don't understand about hybrids is the effective mpg on long
trips?

No better than a diesel. On ling trips all the benefit is in the energy
recovery,.


As well as the fuel serving the internal combustion engine
you have the losses from the electricity generator and motors to pay
for, and the weight of the electric system and battery to carry
around. How can the hybrid possibly be as cheap to run as a modern
diesel only car?

What you lose are gearbox and transmission losses and waht you gain is
regeneration and the ability to run the power plant at the most
efficient part of its energy curve .




--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

On 19/10/17 16:24, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , mechanic
wrote:

On Wed, 18 Oct 2017 21:55:07 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:

Indeed, one of the reasons we went hybrid and not all electric.

What I don't understand about hybrids is the effective mpg on long
trips? As well as the fuel serving the internal combustion engine
you have the losses from the electricity generator and motors to pay
for, and the weight of the electric system and battery to carry
around. How can the hybrid possibly be as cheap to run as a modern
diesel only car?

You don't have a starter motor or alternator. I'm getting a long-term
measured MPG of about 56. That seems to be rather better than most
smallish petrol cars.

but inferior to most smallish diesel cars.


--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

On 19/10/17 17:02, Mark wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 18 October 2017 16:54:02 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Most electric cars are charged overnight at home

That's because most are only town runabouts.

as many houses in towns dont have off road parking ie driveway or garage
how would they charge them?

At the supermarket.


-




--
No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.

No heater? What you do take a gas heater with you then?
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"T i m" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 08:21:49 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

What happens if he needs the heater and the wipers etc as well though?

On my EV there is no heater and the wipers and lights etc run from an
independent auxiliary battery so wouldn't affect the range as such,
especially in the dry and daytime. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 19/10/2017 16:43, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 19/10/2017 15:45, harry wrote:
On Thursday, 19 October 2017 09:36:34 UTC+1, Andy BennetÂ* wrote:
On 19/10/2017 00:22, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â* harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 18 October 2017 16:54:02 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
On R4 You and Yours todayÂ* - for those who may wish to listen again -
there was a bit about some filling stations providing fast charge
points. At last, you might say.

And they interviewed an actual punter with a Leaf. Worth a listen.
;-)

One point he made was he charges it at home at 12p per kW.hr. A full
charge costing about £2 and taking him about 80 miles.

The fast charge points will cost 50p per kW.hr and only charge to
80%.

So as a rough guestimate 7 quid for 70 miles. Not much different from
a small diesel. And, of course, no duty on that electricity, unlike
petrol and diesel.

Most electric cars are charged overnight at home

That's because most are only town runabouts. If filling stations are
getting round to fitting fast charging points, it suggests they are
going
to be used for longer distances.


We have a Renault Zoe (Wifeys car which I enjoy driving) which has a
useable range of 185miles, will easily do an 80 mile destination and
back, hardly a town runabout. We charge it overnight at 7p/kWh, about £3
including inefficiencies.
We did not get an EV based on the cost of the fuel, it is just plain
more enjoyable driving.

Yes, travelling to destinations more than 85/90 miles away starts to
require a topup on the road. We bought it as a runabout for the missus
mainly, longer distances we use the legacy vehicle, but battery
technology already exists in the lab which will allow 500 or more mile
range which for me is all the driving I want to do in a day.

We are lucky and have off road parking so can easily charge at home so
an EV is a perfect solution.
Having said that I do appreciate that the existing infrastructure makes
it difficult for people in flats etc with no off road parking, but it
will get better in time (it has to, and there are plenty of bucks to be
made in doing so).

Andy

YouÂ* never mentioned the battery costs.


With a Zoe you can lease the battery if you wish, bet we bought the
car/battery outright. The battery has an 8 year guarantee..

The trouble is that if the battery fails on an eight or nine year old
car, it will be totally uneconomic to replace and there will be zero
residual value in the vehicle. An IC engined car at that age can still
have most things repaired or replaced economically and keep running for
another 8 years. Indeed, when my wife wanted a smaller car, her previous
car was reapired for £40 and sold for £350 - at 15 years old! If she had
not wanted to change it, it would probably have gone on for a number of
years.

SteveW

On 19/10/2017 15:59, mechanic wrote:
On Wed, 18 Oct 2017 21:55:07 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:

Indeed, one of the reasons we went hybrid and not all electric.

What I don't understand about hybrids is the effective mpg on long
trips? As well as the fuel serving the internal combustion engine
you have the losses from the electricity generator and motors to pay
for, and the weight of the electric system and battery to carry
around. How can the hybrid possibly be as cheap to run as a modern
diesel only car?


Why are they called 'hybrids'? A better name would be 'chimera'.

Bill

On 19/10/2017 15:47, harry wrote:

Does the car have a heater?
Some have a heater, some have a heat pump.
I have warm clothes for along journey and pre-heat the car.

Back to the 1950s then.

Bill

On 19/10/2017 15:44, harry wrote:

Long range electric cars will be too expensive for "normal" people.
The (electric) train will take the strain.


So, no more moving you kid and her stuff to and from uni then.

Bill

On 19/10/2017 14:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I used to open te engine coverÂ* so I coudl ajust the carb and the
distribuor whilst driving, and warm nme legs up

Bloody hell it was a right racket in the cab when I did that!

Bill

In article , Andy
Bennet writes
On 19/10/2017 09:03, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 08:21:49 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

What happens if he needs the heater and the wipers etc as well though?

On my EV there is no heater and the wipers and lights etc run from an
independent auxiliary battery so wouldn't affect the range as such,
especially in the dry and daytime. ;-)

Cheers, T i m


Normally the 12V battery is recharged from the 400V traction battery
via a DC/DC convertor - typically 1kW , so heating/lighting etc DOES
use the traction power. However 100W for lights (less if LED) will
hardly make a dent in a 40/50/60kWh traction battery capacity.
Many EVs use a reversible heatpump for the heating/aircon and give a
COP of nearly 300% so those loads are much lower than on a pure
resistive heating type.

Andy
Heated front windscreen?
--
bert

Andy Bennet wrote:

That's because most are only town runabouts.

as many houses in towns don’t have off road parking ie driveway or
garage how would they charge them?

Assuming they actually use the car, then charge it at a public charge
point/supermarket/car park/motorway service
area/hotel/church/brothel/dealer etc

Do you mean leave it at the supermarket overnight and walk a couple of
miles home? Or does one get used to doing 2+hrs shopping every day?

Great chunks of round here guarantee that parking within 50 yards of the
front door is a rare occurance.

--
Scott

Where are we going and why am I in this handbasket?

"Mark" wrote in message news

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 18 October 2017 16:54:02 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

Most electric cars are charged overnight at home

That's because most are only town runabouts.

as many houses in towns don’t have off road parking ie driveway or garage
how would they charge them?

Even you should be able to work out how an extension
cord works if someone was actually stupid enough to
lend you a seeing eye dog and a white cane.

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
news
On 19/10/2017 16:43, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 19/10/2017 15:45, harry wrote:
On Thursday, 19 October 2017 09:36:34 UTC+1, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 19/10/2017 00:22, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 18 October 2017 16:54:02 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
On R4 You and Yours today - for those who may wish to listen
again -
there was a bit about some filling stations providing fast charge
points. At last, you might say.

And they interviewed an actual punter with a Leaf. Worth a listen.
;-)

One point he made was he charges it at home at 12p per kW.hr. A full
charge costing about £2 and taking him about 80 miles.

The fast charge points will cost 50p per kW.hr and only charge to
80%.

So as a rough guestimate 7 quid for 70 miles. Not much different
from
a small diesel. And, of course, no duty on that electricity, unlike
petrol and diesel.

Most electric cars are charged overnight at home

That's because most are only town runabouts. If filling stations are
getting round to fitting fast charging points, it suggests they are
going
to be used for longer distances.


We have a Renault Zoe (Wifeys car which I enjoy driving) which has a
useable range of 185miles, will easily do an 80 mile destination and
back, hardly a town runabout. We charge it overnight at 7p/kWh, about
£3
including inefficiencies.
We did not get an EV based on the cost of the fuel, it is just plain
more enjoyable driving.

Yes, travelling to destinations more than 85/90 miles away starts to
require a topup on the road. We bought it as a runabout for the missus
mainly, longer distances we use the legacy vehicle, but battery
technology already exists in the lab which will allow 500 or more mile
range which for me is all the driving I want to do in a day.

We are lucky and have off road parking so can easily charge at home so
an EV is a perfect solution.
Having said that I do appreciate that the existing infrastructure makes
it difficult for people in flats etc with no off road parking, but it
will get better in time (it has to, and there are plenty of bucks to be
made in doing so).

Andy

You never mentioned the battery costs.


With a Zoe you can lease the battery if you wish, bet we bought the
car/battery outright. The battery has an 8 year guarantee..

The trouble is that if the battery fails on an eight or nine year old car,
it will be totally uneconomic to replace and there will be zero residual
value in the vehicle. An IC engined car at that age can still have most
things repaired or replaced economically and keep running for another 8
years. Indeed, when my wife wanted a smaller car, her previous car was
reapired for £40 and sold for £350 - at 15 years old! If she had not
wanted to change it, it would probably have gone on for a number of years.

Yeah, I ran the Golf for 45 and only replaced it because I was too
stupid to fix the known windscreen leak and it eventually rusted
out the floor badly enough that that was uneconomic to fix.

Very little needed repairing in that time, an
alternator regulator and distributor rotor.

On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 09:45:28 +0100, Andy Bennet
wrote:

On 19/10/2017 09:03, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 08:21:49 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

What happens if he needs the heater and the wipers etc as well though?

On my EV there is no heater and the wipers and lights etc run from an
independent auxiliary battery so wouldn't affect the range as such,
especially in the dry and daytime. ;-)

Cheers, T i m


Normally the 12V battery is recharged from the 400V traction battery via
a DC/DC convertor - typically 1kW , so heating/lighting etc DOES use the
traction power.

In those cases, yes.

However 100W for lights (less if LED) will hardly make a
dent in a 40/50/60kWh traction battery capacity.

But again, might in a 10kWh battery? (had it not used an additional
battery). ;-)

Many EVs use a reversible heatpump for the heating/aircon and give a COP
of nearly 300% so those loads are much lower than on a pure resistive
heating type.

And no heating at all uses even less energy. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 03:31:10 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, October 19, 2017 at 9:03:19 AM UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 08:21:49 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

What happens if he needs the heater and the wipers etc as well though?

On my EV there is no heater and the wipers and lights etc run from an
independent auxiliary battery so wouldn't affect the range as such,
especially in the dry and daytime. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

Is this the DIY Morris Minor EV that was mentioned on the BBC this morning?

No, this is an Enfield 8000 Bicini (Moke) Chris.

https://www.aronline.co.uk/cars/enfi...tomotive-8000/
(scroll down just below half way)


Either way, is the lack of heater an issue,

Only re defrosting the screen. If it gets bad I can just drop it
forward onto the bonnet. ;-)

or do the batteries and motors keep you warm in winter or something?

Keeping your hat, coat and gloves on keep you warm ... and if I wasn't
in that I could be on a motorbike. ;-)

And after all, we live in England, not Siberia so it rarely get's that
cold these days (especially when you are dressed accordingly). ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 13:44:06 +0100, Bill Wright
wrote:

On 19/10/2017 09:03, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 08:21:49 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

What happens if he needs the heater and the wipers etc as well though?

On my EV there is no heater and the wipers and lights etc run from an
independent auxiliary battery so wouldn't affect the range as such,
especially in the dry and daytime. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

So on a long journey in the rain the wipers and lights would pack up?

No, in general the aux battery under average load would outlast the
traction batteries.

What's the capacity of the aux battery?

I think is was about the size if a larger SLI battery but because it
was a cyclic use type it was probably lower capacity (so say 40Ah)?

Normal wipers draw between 5 and
10A at 12V so you'd need a big ass battery to keep then working all day
long.

You would indeed, however, this is a an old skool lead-acid powered
and non aerodynamic design we are talking about here. ;-)

However, it would take me to and from work (inc home lunchtimes) for
about 2 weeks on one (50p) charge so ... ;-)

Cheers, T i m

In article ,
harry wrote:
On Thursday, 19 October 2017 10:42:51 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andy Bennet wrote:
We did not get an EV based on the cost of the fuel, it is just plain
more enjoyable driving.

Must admit that's the first time I've heard that one. ;-)

Electric cars are a dream to drive compared with ICE.

A Tesla may be interesting. But not as interesting as many many ICE cars
at the same price.

--
*Do paediatricians play miniature golf on Wednesdays?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 07:55:18 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Thursday, 19 October 2017 13:44:07 UTC+1, Bill Wright wrote:
On 19/10/2017 09:03, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 08:21:49 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

What happens if he needs the heater and the wipers etc as well though?

On my EV there is no heater and the wipers and lights etc run from an
independent auxiliary battery so wouldn't affect the range as such,
especially in the dry and daytime. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

So on a long journey in the rain the wipers and lights would pack up?
What's the capacity of the aux battery? Normal wipers draw between 5 and
10A at 12V so you'd need a big ass battery to keep then working all day
long.

Bill

It's charged from the traction battery.

It isn't.

It's a tiny battery. (No starter motor)

40+ Ah.

If it goes flat, the car can't be charged, run or anything.

Not quite. It can be charged but you can't run the lights or drive the
vehicle because the aux battery also powers the main contactors. So,
there are two (onboard) chargers that take 240V, one for the main
(48V) battery and one for the (12V) Aux.

Cheers, T i m

In article ,
harry wrote:
Does the car have a heater?
Some have a heater, some have a heat pump.
I have warm clothes for along journey and pre-heat the car.

And you call that a dream to drive? Last car I drove where you had to wear
warm clothes for a journey was a pre-WW2 Austin 7.

--
*When did my wild oats turn to prunes and all bran?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 19:31:11 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

No heater? What you do take a gas heater with you then?

Nope, I just keep my hat, gloves and coat on Brian. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

In article ,
mechanic wrote:
On Wed, 18 Oct 2017 21:55:07 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:

Indeed, one of the reasons we went hybrid and not all electric.

What I don't understand about hybrids is the effective mpg on long
trips? As well as the fuel serving the internal combustion engine
you have the losses from the electricity generator and motors to pay
for, and the weight of the electric system and battery to carry
around. How can the hybrid possibly be as cheap to run as a modern
diesel only car?

They only really work well driven gently around town. Drive them hard on
the open road and they use more fuel than an equivalent performance ICE.

--
*Windows will never cease *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 10:42:45 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Andy Bennet wrote:
We did not get an EV based on the cost of the fuel, it is just plain
more enjoyable driving.

Must admit that's the first time I've heard that one. ;-)

They are very different that's for sure (especially something as
simple as mine).

When I first got it home I gave it 'a service'.

I checked the brakes (drums all round), the oil in the diff, made sure
all the lights and wipers worked and topped up the washer bottle ...
and that was about it. ;-(

No plugs, points, antifreeze, fan / aux belts, exhaust, engine or
gearbox oil to check etc.

Just check the battery electrolyte level now and again and that was
that.

Cheers, T i m

In article ,
Mark wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 18 October 2017 16:54:02 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

Most electric cars are charged overnight at home

That's because most are only town runabouts.

as many houses in towns don’t have off road parking ie driveway or
garage how would they charge them?

You could have charging sockets wherever the car is parked up overnight.
Posts at the edge of the pavement. Exactly as are springing up round here.
Although at the moment they seem to be restricted to the very few
stretches of pavement in residential areas that aren't actually in front
of a house. Like say on the end of a street where there is a longish
garden wall from the house on the corner.

--
*He who laughs last has just realised the joke.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
On 19/10/2017 15:47, harry wrote:

Does the car have a heater?
Some have a heater, some have a heat pump.
I have warm clothes for along journey and pre-heat the car.

Back to the 1950s then.

My very first car was 50s. Had a very good heater.

--
*It was recently discovered that research causes cancer in rats*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 23:55:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
harry wrote:
On Thursday, 19 October 2017 10:42:51 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andy Bennet wrote:
We did not get an EV based on the cost of the fuel, it is just plain
more enjoyable driving.

Must admit that's the first time I've heard that one. ;-)

Electric cars are a dream to drive compared with ICE.

A Tesla may be interesting. But not as interesting as many many ICE cars
at the same price.

harry said 'a dream to drive', not 'interesting'.

eg, Ignoring range anxiety, from turning they key the first time (and
I'm talking specifically of my EV here) that trip, that's it, you
don't even feel / rear the gear changes as you might with even the
best automatics and have loads of torque (even on a small EV), just
when you generally need it.

And when you come to a halt, everything (any noise / vibrations etc)
instantly stop, silence, nothing. And when you hit the throttle, you
*instantly* start off again, no lag or hesitation whilst things fire /
spool up again (especially on the stop-start IC engined vehicles).

I have seen all this being experienced (and expressed by those
interested in such things) many many times over the 30 I've had my EV.

The first is that it's a Moke (when all open in the summer and
especially when the windscreen is folded flat on the bonnet and the
doors off) and so very open making you very aware of everything around
you, especially noises and in the olden days, smells of other peoples
exhausts (as you would as a pedestrian, cyclist or motorcyclist etc).

Then you turn the 'ignition key' and they 'expect' something to happen
.... but it doesn't.

Then you accelerate and they jump because they didn't expect that to
happen when they hadn't previously heard the engine start etc. ;-)

Then they grin when you are bundling along the high street at 30 mph
and there is no noise coming from the vehicle at all (inc PCM speed
controller 'whine').

Then you come to a halt at say some traffic lights and they look
uneasy when as you come to a halt, they don't hear an engine ticking
over (thinking it has stalled etc).

Then as you pull away again they are often once again 'shocked' that
you have done so without any preamble / starting / revving etc. ;-)

Now, given my Moke is a very crude / basic example of an EV and pretty
old now ... and ignoring the ride quality, lack of speed and features
etc, I'd say that *comparatively* my EV was 'a dream' to *drive*, even
when compared with my mates RR Ghost.

And the Moke is faster in reverse of course. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 23:57:45 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
harry wrote:
Does the car have a heater?
Some have a heater, some have a heat pump.
I have warm clothes for along journey and pre-heat the car.

And you call that a dream to drive? Last car I drove where you had to wear
warm clothes for a journey was a pre-WW2 Austin 7.

Again, you are missing the point. harry is probably talking of the
actual *driving* (as in, the process of making the vehicle start, stop
and get you from A to B), rather than the whole experience of being in
a car.

eg. A fact that a car has a heater or even climate control doesn't
then make a heavy clutch or a noisy engine into a 'dream to drive'.

Cheers, T i m

On 19/10/2017 23:55, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
harry wrote:
On Thursday, 19 October 2017 10:42:51 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andy Bennet wrote:
We did not get an EV based on the cost of the fuel, it is just plain
more enjoyable driving.

Must admit that's the first time I've heard that one. ;-)

Electric cars are a dream to drive compared with ICE.

A Tesla may be interesting. But not as interesting as many many ICE cars
at the same price.


I dunno, A S P100D can do 0-60mph in 2.28 seconds, and you can listen in
comfort to some quiet Brahms and eat a sandwich while doing it.

Try doing that while sweating your way through gears in anything else.

On 19/10/2017 21:09, bert wrote:
In article , Andy
Bennet writes
On 19/10/2017 09:03, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 08:21:49 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

What happens if he needs the heater and the wipers etc as well though?

On my EV there is no heater and the wipers and lights etc run from an
independent auxiliary battery so wouldn't affect the range as such,
especially in the dry and daytime. ;-)

Cheers, T i m


Normally the 12V battery is recharged from the 400V traction battery
via a DC/DC convertor - typically 1kW , so heating/lighting etc DOES
use the traction power. However 100W for lights (less if LED) will
hardly make a dent in a 40/50/60kWh traction battery capacity.
Many EVs use a reversible heatpump for the heating/aircon and give a
COP of nearly 300% so those loads are much lower than on a pure
resistive heating type.

Andy
Heated front windscreen?

Typically 12V @ 30A = 360W. 3 hours per kWh. Not a problem.

On 19/10/2017 23:36, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 09:45:28 +0100, Andy Bennet
wrote:

On 19/10/2017 09:03, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 08:21:49 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

What happens if he needs the heater and the wipers etc as well though?

On my EV there is no heater and the wipers and lights etc run from an
independent auxiliary battery so wouldn't affect the range as such,
especially in the dry and daytime. ;-)

Cheers, T i m


Normally the 12V battery is recharged from the 400V traction battery via
a DC/DC convertor - typically 1kW , so heating/lighting etc DOES use the
traction power.

In those cases, yes.

However 100W for lights (less if LED) will hardly make a
dent in a 40/50/60kWh traction battery capacity.

But again, might in a 10kWh battery? (had it not used an additional
battery). ;-)

Many EVs use a reversible heatpump for the heating/aircon and give a COP
of nearly 300% so those loads are much lower than on a pure resistive
heating type.

And no heating at all uses even less energy. ;-)

Cheers, T i m


My preference is to be toasty in winter and cool in summer!

On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 10:28:25 +0100, Andy Bennet
wrote:

snip
And no heating at all uses even less energy. ;-)


My preference is to be toasty in winter and cool in summer!

Never been 'a biker' then Andy? ;-)

Cheers

In article ,
T i m wrote:
On Thu, 19 Oct 2017 23:55:25 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
harry wrote:
On Thursday, 19 October 2017 10:42:51 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andy Bennet wrote:
We did not get an EV based on the cost of the fuel, it is just plain
more enjoyable driving.

Must admit that's the first time I've heard that one. ;-)

Electric cars are a dream to drive compared with ICE.

A Tesla may be interesting. But not as interesting as many many ICE cars
at the same price.

harry said 'a dream to drive', not 'interesting'.

Point I was making is many will have a different view of what makes a car
a dream to drive.

eg, Ignoring range anxiety, from turning they key the first time (and
I'm talking specifically of my EV here) that trip, that's it, you
don't even feel / rear the gear changes as you might with even the
best automatics and have loads of torque (even on a small EV), just
when you generally need it.

Please don't lets get back on to torque again. You know it upsets so many.
;-)

And when you come to a halt, everything (any noise / vibrations etc)
instantly stop, silence, nothing. And when you hit the throttle, you
*instantly* start off again, no lag or hesitation whilst things fire /
spool up again (especially on the stop-start IC engined vehicles).

So no heating or air con when stopped?

I have seen all this being experienced (and expressed by those
interested in such things) many many times over the 30 I've had my EV.

Thing is many get pleasure from an IC car with a sweet clutch and gearbox.
The noise the engine may make even if very low.

The first is that it's a Moke (when all open in the summer and
especially when the windscreen is folded flat on the bonnet and the
doors off) and so very open making you very aware of everything around
you, especially noises and in the olden days, smells of other peoples
exhausts (as you would as a pedestrian, cyclist or motorcyclist etc).

Not sure I'd fancy wearing goggles each time I went for a drive. But what
you're saying there is why I've bought a 'sports car'. The difference
being it open up at the touch of a button. ;-)

Then you turn the 'ignition key' and they 'expect' something to happen
... but it doesn't.

Then you accelerate and they jump because they didn't expect that to
happen when they hadn't previously heard the engine start etc. ;-)

Then they grin when you are bundling along the high street at 30 mph
and there is no noise coming from the vehicle at all (inc PCM speed
controller 'whine').

Then you come to a halt at say some traffic lights and they look
uneasy when as you come to a halt, they don't hear an engine ticking
over (thinking it has stalled etc).

Then as you pull away again they are often once again 'shocked' that
you have done so without any preamble / starting / revving etc. ;-)

Now, given my Moke is a very crude / basic example of an EV and pretty
old now ... and ignoring the ride quality, lack of speed and features
etc, I'd say that *comparatively* my EV was 'a dream' to *drive*, even
when compared with my mates RR Ghost.

And the Moke is faster in reverse of course. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

--
*I don't believe in astrology. I am a Sagittarius and we're very skeptical.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.