Thanks to high electricity prices and low gas prices it now costs less
per mile to run our Prius Plug-In on gasoline than on electricity.

Miles per Gallon: 45
Price per Gallon: $3.00
Cost Per Gasoline Mile: 6.67¢

Miles per KWH: 4
Price per KWH: $0.324 (no joke!)
Cost Per Electric Mile: 8.10¢

A Tesla is about 0.5 KWH/mile so at the same electricity cost it's far
more expensive than a gasoline powered vehicle.

The problem is the high electricity cost in my area. In areas of the
country where the electricity cost is half the price then it'd be
break-even for the Tesla, and a savings on the Prius. We are not big
electricity users since A/C is rarely needed here, and the water heater,
furnace, and clothes dryer are natural gas. But we always end up in the
top tier for electricity usage ($0.32445/KWH) which starts at 201% over
baseline.

The tremendous advantage of a plug-in hybrid, or all-electric, in
California, is the carpool lane access with a single person. And due to
state and federal tax credits, and factory to buyer incentives, the
Prius Plug-In was the same price as the gasoline-only model, and Plug-In
came with navigation and several other features. The carpool lane access
is really nice even though I don't really agree with the idea that
single occupancy vehicles should ever get to use the carpool lane; OTOH,
every additional vehicle in the carpool lane means less vehicles in the
other lanes so there is some benefit to everyone.

On 11/4/2014 1:58 PM, SMS wrote:
Thanks to high electricity prices and low gas prices it now costs less
per mile to run our Prius Plug-In on gasoline than on electricity.

Miles per Gallon: 45
Price per Gallon: $3.00
Cost Per Gasoline Mile: 6.67¢

Miles per KWH: 4
Price per KWH: $0.324 (no joke!)
Cost Per Electric Mile: 8.10¢

A Tesla is about 0.5 KWH/mile so at the same electricity cost it's far
more expensive than a gasoline powered vehicle.

The problem is the high electricity cost in my area. In areas of the
country where the electricity cost is half the price then it'd be
break-even for the Tesla, and a savings on the Prius. We are not big
electricity users since A/C is rarely needed here, and the water heater,
furnace, and clothes dryer are natural gas. But we always end up in the
top tier for electricity usage ($0.32445/KWH) which starts at 201% over
baseline.

The tremendous advantage of a plug-in hybrid, or all-electric, in
California, is the carpool lane access with a single person. And due to
state and federal tax credits, and factory to buyer incentives, the
Prius Plug-In was the same price as the gasoline-only model, and Plug-In
came with navigation and several other features. The carpool lane access
is really nice even though I don't really agree with the idea that
single occupancy vehicles should ever get to use the carpool lane; OTOH,
every additional vehicle in the carpool lane means less vehicles in the
other lanes so there is some benefit to everyone.

Assuming all your information is correct, you should spread this
observation further. Even with all the subsidies, the Prius costs are
spread to the taxpayer who pays for it. Cost to everyone is more for
transportation in these vehicles. Same goes for pollution advantage, it
is spread elsewhere in the form of the battery production and
electricity generated at polluting sites.

Per SMS:
Miles per KWH: 4
Price per KWH: $0.324 (no joke!)
Cost Per Electric Mile: 8.10¢

Dunno what the life of the Prius' battery is - or what it's replacement
cost is.... but BatterLifeInMiles/ReplacementCost is certainly going to
be a few more cents....

e.g. Pulling numbers out of the air:

80 mile range, 1,000 cycles = 80,000 mile life.

$5,000 replacement cost... 5000/80000 = six more cents per mile.

Maybe somebody can chime in with the real numbers....
--
Pete Cresswell

In article ,
"(PeteCresswell)" wrote:

Per SMS:
Miles per KWH: 4
Price per KWH: $0.324 (no joke!)
Cost Per Electric Mile: 8.10¢

Dunno what the life of the Prius' battery is - or what it's replacement
cost is.... but BatterLifeInMiles/ReplacementCost is certainly going to
be a few more cents....

e.g. Pulling numbers out of the air:

80 mile range, 1,000 cycles = 80,000 mile life.

$5,000 replacement cost... 5000/80000 = six more cents per mile.

Maybe somebody can chime in with the real numbers....

how much does a gas/diesel spend on maintenance (oil, anti-freeze, spark
plugs, air filters, tune-ups, etc) over 80000 miles

Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds wrote:

In article ,
"(PeteCresswell)" wrote:

Per SMS:
Miles per KWH: 4
Price per KWH: $0.324 (no joke!)
Cost Per Electric Mile: 8.10¢

Dunno what the life of the Prius' battery is - or what it's replacement
cost is.... but BatterLifeInMiles/ReplacementCost is certainly going to
be a few more cents....

e.g. Pulling numbers out of the air:

80 mile range, 1,000 cycles = 80,000 mile life.

$5,000 replacement cost... 5000/80000 = six more cents per mile.

Maybe somebody can chime in with the real numbers....

how much does a gas/diesel spend on maintenance (oil, anti-freeze, spark
plugs, air filters, tune-ups, etc) over 80000 miles

Diesel $2720 or so, and that's with M1 synthetic oil at 5K intervals and
fuel filters every 10k.

On 11/4/2014 10:35 PM, Pete C. wrote:




Diesel $2720 or so, and that's with M1 synthetic oil at 5K intervals and
fuel filters every 10k.


Is that the recommendation for synthetic for your engine? I'd have
thought much longer.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 11/4/2014 10:35 PM, Pete C. wrote:



Diesel $2720 or so, and that's with M1 synthetic oil at 5K intervals and
fuel filters every 10k.


Is that the recommendation for synthetic for your engine? I'd have
thought much longer.

The Ford (Navistar) 6.4 diesel and really all of the new generation of
emissions controlled diesels have higher maintenance requirements than
the old generations.

There was a real sea change in diesel technology that accompanied the
emissions controls, mechanical injection pumps were replaced with high
pressure common rail electronic injection, basic turbos were replaced
with two stage turbos with servo controlled variable stator vanes, etc.
All this change give significantly higher performance than the old
generations, but needs more care.

I'm particularly anal about maintenance on my $60k truck ($15k engine
alone) and I'm pretty happy with the results. I do oil analysis at every
oil change and my reports are some of the best seen for a 6.4 per the
various diesel forums. I'm not going to skimp on maintenance to save
perhaps $200/yr in oil and risk a $15k engine as a result.

On 11/4/2014 6:19 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:


e.g. Pulling numbers out of the air:

80 mile range, 1,000 cycles = 80,000 mile life.

$5,000 replacement cost... 5000/80000 = six more cents per mile.

Maybe somebody can chime in with the real numbers....

how much does a gas/diesel spend on maintenance (oil, anti-freeze, spark
plugs, air filters, tune-ups, etc) over 80000 miles


Far less than 5 grand. A dozen oil changes at $35 each. and a $20 air
filter. No tune up or plug changes until 100,000 miles.

Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Far less than 5 grand. A dozen oil changes at $35 each. and a $20 air
filter. No tune up or plug changes until 100,000 miles.

The Toyota manual recommends 5000 miles oil changes and not much else for
the first 100000. 80000 would be 16 changes. At a little less than 4 quarts
of oil and a $6 Swix filter, lets say $20, that does beat $5000 by a lot.

On 11/5/2014 7:09 AM, rbowman wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Far less than 5 grand. A dozen oil changes at $35 each. and a $20 air
filter. No tune up or plug changes until 100,000 miles.

The Toyota manual recommends 5000 miles oil changes and not much else for
the first 100000. 80000 would be 16 changes. At a little less than 4 quarts
of oil and a $6 Swix filter, lets say $20, that does beat $5000 by a lot.

The first two years of maintenance are included. But the oil changes
after that will be about $50 because they require synthetic oil. If you
do it yourself then $35 is about right. Avoid Wix filters at all costs.
Use OEM filters. Never heard of Swix filters, Swix is a ski wax. Toyota
filters go on sale often for $3.

On Tuesday, November 4, 2014 7:19:38 PM UTC-5, Malcom Mal Reynolds wrote:
In article ,
"(PeteCresswell)" wrote:

Per SMS:
Miles per KWH: 4
Price per KWH: $0.324 (no joke!)
Cost Per Electric Mile: 8.10¢

Dunno what the life of the Prius' battery is - or what it's replacement
cost is.... but BatterLifeInMiles/ReplacementCost is certainly going to
be a few more cents....

e.g. Pulling numbers out of the air:

80 mile range, 1,000 cycles = 80,000 mile life.

$5,000 replacement cost... 5000/80000 = six more cents per mile.

Maybe somebody can chime in with the real numbers....

how much does a gas/diesel spend on maintenance (oil, anti-freeze, spark
plugs, air filters, tune-ups, etc) over 80000 miles

Antifreeze, spark plugs and tune-ups, zero unless you're driving a car
from the 80's. Modern cars don't need any of that done at 80K miles.
Obviously you either don't know anything about cars either or are lying
to further the tree hugger cause.

In article ,
trader_4 wrote:

On Tuesday, November 4, 2014 7:19:38 PM UTC-5, Malcom Mal Reynolds wrote:
In article ,
"(PeteCresswell)" wrote:

Per SMS:
Miles per KWH: 4
Price per KWH: $0.324 (no joke!)
Cost Per Electric Mile: 8.10¢

Dunno what the life of the Prius' battery is - or what it's replacement
cost is.... but BatterLifeInMiles/ReplacementCost is certainly going to
be a few more cents....

e.g. Pulling numbers out of the air:

80 mile range, 1,000 cycles = 80,000 mile life.

$5,000 replacement cost... 5000/80000 = six more cents per mile.

Maybe somebody can chime in with the real numbers....

how much does a gas/diesel spend on maintenance (oil, anti-freeze, spark
plugs, air filters, tune-ups, etc) over 80000 miles

Antifreeze, spark plugs and tune-ups, zero unless you're driving a car
from the 80's. Modern cars don't need any of that done at 80K miles.
Obviously you either don't know anything about cars either or are lying
to further the tree hugger cause.

just like you conservatives to politicize a legitimate question

On 11/6/2014 6:58 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, November 4, 2014 7:19:38 PM UTC-5, Malcom Mal Reynolds wrote:



how much does a gas/diesel spend on maintenance (oil, anti-freeze, spark
plugs, air filters, tune-ups, etc) over 80000 miles

Antifreeze, spark plugs and tune-ups, zero unless you're driving a car
from the 80's. Modern cars don't need any of that done at 80K miles.
Obviously you either don't know anything about cars either or are lying
to further the tree hugger cause.


Actually, my Hyundai Sonata with 2.0 turbo is supposed to have the
plugs changed at 48,000 miles. They also recommend oil changes at 4800
instead of the usual 7500 miles on the V6

Oh, at 40k I also changed the cabin filter at a cost of $9.
At 100k I will have spent about $900. No anti-freeze, no tune up.

On 11/4/2014 3:17 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per SMS:
Miles per KWH: 4
Price per KWH: $0.324 (no joke!)
Cost Per Electric Mile: 8.10¢

Dunno what the life of the Prius' battery is - or what it's replacement
cost is.... but BatterLifeInMiles/ReplacementCost is certainly going to
be a few more cents....

e.g. Pulling numbers out of the air:

80 mile range, 1,000 cycles = 80,000 mile life.

$5,000 replacement cost... 5000/80000 = six more cents per mile.

Maybe somebody can chime in with the real numbers....


Keep the car for 40,000 miles then sell it. Second owner buys it and
puts an additional 40k miles.

Owner 1 additional 0 cents per mile.
Owner 2 additional 12 cents per mile.

I'll wait another 10 years for the fuel cell.

On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 10:58:00 -0800, SMS
wrote:

Thanks to high electricity prices and low gas prices it now costs less
per mile to run our Prius Plug-In on gasoline than on electricity.

Miles per Gallon: 45
Price per Gallon: $3.00
Cost Per Gasoline Mile: 6.67¢

Miles per KWH: 4
Price per KWH: $0.324 (no joke!)
Cost Per Electric Mile: 8.10¢

A Tesla is about 0.5 KWH/mile so at the same electricity cost it's far
more expensive than a gasoline powered vehicle.

The problem is the high electricity cost in my area. In areas of the
country where the electricity cost is half the price then it'd be
break-even for the Tesla, and a savings on the Prius. We are not big
electricity users since A/C is rarely needed here, and the water heater,
furnace, and clothes dryer are natural gas. But we always end up in the
top tier for electricity usage ($0.32445/KWH) which starts at 201% over
baseline.

The tremendous advantage of a plug-in hybrid, or all-electric, in
California, is the carpool lane access with a single person. And due to
state and federal tax credits, and factory to buyer incentives, the
Prius Plug-In was the same price as the gasoline-only model, and Plug-In
came with navigation and several other features. The carpool lane access
is really nice even though I don't really agree with the idea that
single occupancy vehicles should ever get to use the carpool lane; OTOH,
every additional vehicle in the carpool lane means less vehicles in the
other lanes so there is some benefit to everyone.

This is true for the moment, but what about the
future? Why not set up a solar powered recharging
station for your vehicle? Yes, there is the high
expense of the solar panels but those panels can
also help reduce the household power bill.
Expences will constantly rise given time. Going
solar now might save a true fortune in the future.
BTW, there are small solar panels that can be
stuck on the inside of the vehicle window, then
plugged into a cigarette lighter to help charge a
vehicle battery while parked for the day.

32 cents per KWH is the highest electric rate I've ever heard of. In most places it varies from 10 to 20 cents per KWH, in which case your electric vehicle is still the cheapest way to get around.

While I wholeheartedly want electric vehicles to sell well because it would be good for developing Manitoba's hydroelectric potential, electric cars simply aren't practical in a Canadian winter.

That's because interior car heaters warm the interior of the car in winter by using waste heat from the gasoline engine. The car warmer uses the same coolant the engine does to warm the interior of the car and keep the front windshield warm so the frost on it melts. In an electric car, you don't have any waste heat available to use for warming the inside of the car.

AND, with every breath you exhale, you're raising the humidity level inside the car, and that humidity forms frost on the inside of the cold windshield, making it hard to see through.

Yes, we could put electric heaters in electric cars to warm the interior, but that would be a major drain on the batteries. Electric motors are really quite efficient, but electric heaters are electricity pigs.

So, ironic as it sounds, one place in North America that has plenty of hydro electric generating potential (Manitoba) is also one place where electric cars are impractical. I suppose a practical solution would be for Manitobans to buy hybrid cars, and use the gasoline engine during the winter and the electric drive motors during the summer. That would work cut our carbon footprint substantially because we only really need interior car warmers in the cold months from mid-November to mid-March.

On Tuesday, November 4, 2014 3:22:13 PM UTC-5, Vandy Terre wrote:
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 10:58:00 -0800, SMS
wrote:

Thanks to high electricity prices and low gas prices it now costs less
per mile to run our Prius Plug-In on gasoline than on electricity.

Miles per Gallon: 45
Price per Gallon: $3.00
Cost Per Gasoline Mile: 6.67¢

Miles per KWH: 4
Price per KWH: $0.324 (no joke!)
Cost Per Electric Mile: 8.10¢

A Tesla is about 0.5 KWH/mile so at the same electricity cost it's far
more expensive than a gasoline powered vehicle.

The problem is the high electricity cost in my area. In areas of the
country where the electricity cost is half the price then it'd be
break-even for the Tesla, and a savings on the Prius. We are not big
electricity users since A/C is rarely needed here, and the water heater,
furnace, and clothes dryer are natural gas. But we always end up in the
top tier for electricity usage ($0.32445/KWH) which starts at 201% over
baseline.

The tremendous advantage of a plug-in hybrid, or all-electric, in
California, is the carpool lane access with a single person. And due to
state and federal tax credits, and factory to buyer incentives, the
Prius Plug-In was the same price as the gasoline-only model, and Plug-In
came with navigation and several other features. The carpool lane access
is really nice even though I don't really agree with the idea that
single occupancy vehicles should ever get to use the carpool lane; OTOH,
every additional vehicle in the carpool lane means less vehicles in the
other lanes so there is some benefit to everyone.

This is true for the moment, but what about the
future? Why not set up a solar powered recharging
station for your vehicle? Yes, there is the high
expense of the solar panels but those panels can
also help reduce the household power bill.
Expences will constantly rise given time. Going
solar now might save a true fortune in the future.
BTW, there are small solar panels that can be
stuck on the inside of the vehicle window, then
plugged into a cigarette lighter to help charge a
vehicle battery while parked for the day.

do the math
how many Watt hours can you get from a little solar panel in a typical day?
or even a big solar panel for that matter?
how many watt hours does it take to recharge a car?

Mark

On 11/4/2014 2:23 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, November 4, 2014 3:22:13 PM UTC-5, Vandy Terre wrote:
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 10:58:00 -0800, SMS
wrote:

Thanks to high electricity prices and low gas prices it now costs less
per mile to run our Prius Plug-In on gasoline than on electricity.

Miles per Gallon: 45
Price per Gallon: $3.00
Cost Per Gasoline Mile: 6.67¢

Miles per KWH: 4
Price per KWH: $0.324 (no joke!)
Cost Per Electric Mile: 8.10¢

A Tesla is about 0.5 KWH/mile so at the same electricity cost it's far
more expensive than a gasoline powered vehicle.

The problem is the high electricity cost in my area. In areas of the
country where the electricity cost is half the price then it'd be
break-even for the Tesla, and a savings on the Prius. We are not big
electricity users since A/C is rarely needed here, and the water heater,
furnace, and clothes dryer are natural gas. But we always end up in the
top tier for electricity usage ($0.32445/KWH) which starts at 201% over
baseline.

The tremendous advantage of a plug-in hybrid, or all-electric, in
California, is the carpool lane access with a single person. And due to
state and federal tax credits, and factory to buyer incentives, the
Prius Plug-In was the same price as the gasoline-only model, and Plug-In
came with navigation and several other features. The carpool lane access
is really nice even though I don't really agree with the idea that
single occupancy vehicles should ever get to use the carpool lane; OTOH,
every additional vehicle in the carpool lane means less vehicles in the
other lanes so there is some benefit to everyone.

This is true for the moment, but what about the
future? Why not set up a solar powered recharging
station for your vehicle? Yes, there is the high
expense of the solar panels but those panels can
also help reduce the household power bill.
Expences will constantly rise given time. Going
solar now might save a true fortune in the future.
BTW, there are small solar panels that can be
stuck on the inside of the vehicle window, then
plugged into a cigarette lighter to help charge a
vehicle battery while parked for the day.

do the math
how many Watt hours can you get from a little solar panel in a typical day?
or even a big solar panel for that matter?
how many watt hours does it take to recharge a car?

The Prius Plug-In requires 3KWH to charge the battery. A fully charged
battery provides 12-14 miles of driving. This is actually enough for the
spousal-unit's daily commute so during the week this vehicle rarely used
any gasoline.

Those little solar panels are not going to make a dent in 3KWH. Plus,
the battery packs cars require a minimum of 120VAC to charge, there is
no option to charge small packs of cells with a 12VDC charger. It would
take 200 hours to charge the Prius Plug-In battery with a 15W charger,
assuming no losses. The reality is that it would take about 300 hours.

My understanding is that a lingering problem with electric cars is that they use lithium ion battery packs, and those battery packs are really nothing more than 300 or so laptop li-ion batteries. So, you pay $40,000 to buy the car new, but the li-ion batteries don't last any longer than they would in a laptop computer. So, a few years down the road you're looking at buying a new battery pack for the car, or 300 battery packs at $50 per battery pack, or $15,000.

It's that problem with the battery packs for the cars only lasting a few years that still needs to be solved. I, for one, wouldn't want to drive an electric car if I had to pay two or three times as much more for batteries than I would have to pay for gasoline in a conventional car.

Does anyone know if this is correct or am I misinformed?

nestork wrote:

My understanding is that a lingering problem with electric cars is that
they use lithium ion battery packs, and those battery packs are really
nothing more than 300 or so laptop li-ion batteries. So, you pay
$40,000 to buy the car new, but the li-ion batteries don't last any
longer than they would in a laptop computer. So, a few years down the
road you're looking at buying a new battery pack for the car, or 300
battery packs at $50 per battery pack, or $15,000.

It's that problem with the battery packs for the cars only lasting a few
years that still needs to be solved. I, for one, wouldn't want to drive
an electric car if I had to pay two or three times as much more for
batteries than I would have to pay for gasoline in a conventional car.

Does anyone know if this is correct or am I misinformed?

--
nestork

The packs last more like 5+ years, but it's still an issue.

A greater issue is the time to charge vs. the time to fuel a liquid
fueled vehicle. Fueling a liquid fueled vehicle for ~500 miles range
takes about 10 min maximum, vs. 8 hours for 15 miles in an EV. There is
no way EVs will go beyond niche and ego driven users without resolving
that issue.

Fortunately that issue was solved long ago in electric warehouse
forklifts where rather than have the forklift down for 6+ hours to
recharge, they just swap battery packs with a freshly charged one and
the forklift is off and running on the next shift while the previous
battery pack recharges.

This is ultimately where EVs need to go and it will require standardized
battery packs and robotic automation to change them at the "gas
station". This way when your EV is low on charge you can pull into the
station, park at the "pump" and a robotic system changes out your
battery packs from underneath the vehicle and you're on your way with a
full charge in a comparable time to a conventional gas station.

Beyond the standardization of battery packs and under vehicle access to
them, this also requires you to own a battery pack in a common pool,
something similar to the cylinder exchanges that are common for propane
and industrial gasses. This also amortizes the cost of pack replacement
and refurbishing into the pool the same as hydro testing and occasional
cylinder replacement are absorbed into the pool for gas cylinders.

Those "fixes" will make EVs useable to a substantially larger percentage
of the population. Combine that with some new nuke plants, tidal
generation and other green electricity sources to provide "free"
charging power at residences so you can top up overnight for the next
days travel and we it can have a huge impact on overall emissions and
oil use. As the batteries improve and longer ranges on a charge are
available still more people will be able to utilize EVs.

Those changes are the only way an EV would be useful to me, much of my
driving is short local trips where it makes little difference if I drove
an EV or my diesel F350, it's still a negligible expense per trip. My
longer trips are ~120 miles RT so without a quick pack replacement "gas
station" and EV would be useless to me.

On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 16:35:39 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/4/2014 2:23 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, November 4, 2014 3:22:13 PM UTC-5, Vandy Terre wrote:
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 10:58:00 -0800, SMS
wrote:

Thanks to high electricity prices and low gas prices it now costs less
per mile to run our Prius Plug-In on gasoline than on electricity.

Miles per Gallon: 45
Price per Gallon: $3.00
Cost Per Gasoline Mile: 6.67¢

Miles per KWH: 4
Price per KWH: $0.324 (no joke!)
Cost Per Electric Mile: 8.10¢

A Tesla is about 0.5 KWH/mile so at the same electricity cost it's far
more expensive than a gasoline powered vehicle.

The problem is the high electricity cost in my area. In areas of the
country where the electricity cost is half the price then it'd be
break-even for the Tesla, and a savings on the Prius. We are not big
electricity users since A/C is rarely needed here, and the water heater,
furnace, and clothes dryer are natural gas. But we always end up in the
top tier for electricity usage ($0.32445/KWH) which starts at 201% over
baseline.

The tremendous advantage of a plug-in hybrid, or all-electric, in
California, is the carpool lane access with a single person. And due to
state and federal tax credits, and factory to buyer incentives, the
Prius Plug-In was the same price as the gasoline-only model, and Plug-In
came with navigation and several other features. The carpool lane access
is really nice even though I don't really agree with the idea that
single occupancy vehicles should ever get to use the carpool lane; OTOH,
every additional vehicle in the carpool lane means less vehicles in the
other lanes so there is some benefit to everyone.

This is true for the moment, but what about the
future? Why not set up a solar powered recharging
station for your vehicle? Yes, there is the high
expense of the solar panels but those panels can
also help reduce the household power bill.
Expences will constantly rise given time. Going
solar now might save a true fortune in the future.
BTW, there are small solar panels that can be
stuck on the inside of the vehicle window, then
plugged into a cigarette lighter to help charge a
vehicle battery while parked for the day.

do the math
how many Watt hours can you get from a little solar panel in a typical day?
or even a big solar panel for that matter?
how many watt hours does it take to recharge a car?

The Prius Plug-In requires 3KWH to charge the battery. A fully charged
battery provides 12-14 miles of driving. This is actually enough for the
spousal-unit's daily commute so during the week this vehicle rarely used
any gasoline.

Those little solar panels are not going to make a dent in 3KWH. Plus,
the battery packs cars require a minimum of 120VAC to charge, there is
no option to charge small packs of cells with a 12VDC charger. It would
take 200 hours to charge the Prius Plug-In battery with a 15W charger,
assuming no losses. The reality is that it would take about 300 hours.

I was under the mistaken impression that batteries
did not care what the voltage was. I don't expect
a small charger to make a big difference just
making use of vehicle being parked in the sun. I
would like to see vehicles with solar panels built
into the roof such that a charge is added anytime
there be sunlight.

Vandy Terre wrote:

On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 16:35:39 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 11/4/2014 2:23 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, November 4, 2014 3:22:13 PM UTC-5, Vandy Terre wrote:
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 10:58:00 -0800, SMS
wrote:

Thanks to high electricity prices and low gas prices it now costs less
per mile to run our Prius Plug-In on gasoline than on electricity.

Miles per Gallon: 45
Price per Gallon: $3.00
Cost Per Gasoline Mile: 6.67¢

Miles per KWH: 4
Price per KWH: $0.324 (no joke!)
Cost Per Electric Mile: 8.10¢

A Tesla is about 0.5 KWH/mile so at the same electricity cost it's far
more expensive than a gasoline powered vehicle.

The problem is the high electricity cost in my area. In areas of the
country where the electricity cost is half the price then it'd be
break-even for the Tesla, and a savings on the Prius. We are not big
electricity users since A/C is rarely needed here, and the water heater,
furnace, and clothes dryer are natural gas. But we always end up in the
top tier for electricity usage ($0.32445/KWH) which starts at 201% over
baseline.

The tremendous advantage of a plug-in hybrid, or all-electric, in
California, is the carpool lane access with a single person. And due to
state and federal tax credits, and factory to buyer incentives, the
Prius Plug-In was the same price as the gasoline-only model, and Plug-In
came with navigation and several other features. The carpool lane access
is really nice even though I don't really agree with the idea that
single occupancy vehicles should ever get to use the carpool lane; OTOH,
every additional vehicle in the carpool lane means less vehicles in the
other lanes so there is some benefit to everyone.

This is true for the moment, but what about the
future? Why not set up a solar powered recharging
station for your vehicle? Yes, there is the high
expense of the solar panels but those panels can
also help reduce the household power bill.
Expences will constantly rise given time. Going
solar now might save a true fortune in the future.
BTW, there are small solar panels that can be
stuck on the inside of the vehicle window, then
plugged into a cigarette lighter to help charge a
vehicle battery while parked for the day.

do the math
how many Watt hours can you get from a little solar panel in a typical day?
or even a big solar panel for that matter?
how many watt hours does it take to recharge a car?

The Prius Plug-In requires 3KWH to charge the battery. A fully charged
battery provides 12-14 miles of driving. This is actually enough for the
spousal-unit's daily commute so during the week this vehicle rarely used
any gasoline.

Those little solar panels are not going to make a dent in 3KWH. Plus,
the battery packs cars require a minimum of 120VAC to charge, there is
no option to charge small packs of cells with a 12VDC charger. It would
take 200 hours to charge the Prius Plug-In battery with a 15W charger,
assuming no losses. The reality is that it would take about 300 hours.

I was under the mistaken impression that batteries
did not care what the voltage was. I don't expect
a small charger to make a big difference just
making use of vehicle being parked in the sun. I
would like to see vehicles with solar panels built
into the roof such that a charge is added anytime
there be sunlight.

If you covered all available flat surface areas on a prius or similar
with PV, you could probably fit about 500W worth of panels. That would
get you about 4KWh of charge in a really sunny 8 hour work day, so if
the numbers above are correct there is some possibility of solar
charging for your commute home in sunny weather.

On Tuesday, November 4, 2014 3:22:13 PM UTC-5, Vandy Terre wrote:
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 10:58:00 -0800, SMS
wrote:

Thanks to high electricity prices and low gas prices it now costs less
per mile to run our Prius Plug-In on gasoline than on electricity.

Miles per Gallon: 45
Price per Gallon: $3.00
Cost Per Gasoline Mile: 6.67¢

Miles per KWH: 4
Price per KWH: $0.324 (no joke!)
Cost Per Electric Mile: 8.10¢

A Tesla is about 0.5 KWH/mile so at the same electricity cost it's far
more expensive than a gasoline powered vehicle.

The problem is the high electricity cost in my area. In areas of the
country where the electricity cost is half the price then it'd be
break-even for the Tesla, and a savings on the Prius. We are not big
electricity users since A/C is rarely needed here, and the water heater,
furnace, and clothes dryer are natural gas. But we always end up in the
top tier for electricity usage ($0.32445/KWH) which starts at 201% over
baseline.

The tremendous advantage of a plug-in hybrid, or all-electric, in
California, is the carpool lane access with a single person. And due to
state and federal tax credits, and factory to buyer incentives, the
Prius Plug-In was the same price as the gasoline-only model, and Plug-In
came with navigation and several other features. The carpool lane access
is really nice even though I don't really agree with the idea that
single occupancy vehicles should ever get to use the carpool lane; OTOH,
every additional vehicle in the carpool lane means less vehicles in the
other lanes so there is some benefit to everyone.

This is true for the moment, but what about the
future? Why not set up a solar powered recharging
station for your vehicle? Yes, there is the high
expense of the solar panels but those panels can
also help reduce the household power bill.

Great idea. Sink another $45K into a solar array to
charge the electric car that's already cost prohibitive.
And the only reason that solar electric is marginally practical
at all is that it's heavily subsidized by the rest of the poor
saps out there so that the hippies can put them in.


Expences will constantly rise given time. Going
solar now might save a true fortune in the future.

Sure sink big $$$ today so that if energy costs more in 2030,
you'll be ready. Remember when Jimmy Carter and the experts told
us we were running out of oil in the 70's? How well did that
work out?



BTW, there are small solar panels that can be
stuck on the inside of the vehicle window, then
plugged into a cigarette lighter to help charge a
vehicle battery while parked for the day.

I'm sure that's good for going at least a few blocks.

On 11/6/2014 7:03 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, November 4, 2014 3:22:13 PM UTC-5, Vandy Terre wrote:

Expences will constantly rise given time. Going
solar now might save a true fortune in the future.

Sure sink big $$$ today so that if energy costs more in 2030,
you'll be ready. Remember when Jimmy Carter and the experts told
us we were running out of oil in the 70's? How well did that
work out?

Well, after Carter, we had a couple admin that
prohibited domestic drilling, Alaska pipe line,
etc. So, the price of oil has gone from .33 when
I was a kid, and went over 4.25 for a while, due
to supply shortages. I'd like O out, and Sarah
Palin for Pres.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

In article ,
Stormin Mormon wrote:

On 11/6/2014 7:03 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, November 4, 2014 3:22:13 PM UTC-5, Vandy Terre wrote:

Expences will constantly rise given time. Going
solar now might save a true fortune in the future.

Sure sink big $$$ today so that if energy costs more in 2030,
you'll be ready. Remember when Jimmy Carter and the experts told
us we were running out of oil in the 70's? How well did that
work out?

Well, after Carter, we had a couple admin that
prohibited domestic drilling, Alaska pipe line,
etc. So, the price of oil has gone from .33 when
I was a kid, and went over 4.25 for a while, due
to supply shortages. I'd like O out, and Sarah
Palin for Pres.

and you'd deserve her

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ...
On 11/6/2014 7:03 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, November 4, 2014 3:22:13 PM UTC-5, Vandy Terre wrote:

Expences will constantly rise given time. Going
solar now might save a true fortune in the future.

Sure sink big $$$ today so that if energy costs more in 2030,
you'll be ready. Remember when Jimmy Carter and the experts told
us we were running out of oil in the 70's? How well did that
work out?

Well, after Carter, we had a couple admin that
prohibited domestic drilling, Alaska pipe line,
etc. So, the price of oil has gone from .33 when
I was a kid, and went over 4.25 for a while, due
to supply shortages. I'd like O out, and Sarah
Palin for Pres.

I don't think it has anything to do with BO. With oil shade production techniques improving, the US has been moving towards being oil-indept. All that drilling slowed down when OPEC dropped it's price of oil. Refineries here on the west coast have started canceling contracts and put capital projects on hold until prices come back up. Plus in Calif, winter fuel is cheaper to make than summer, adding to the price drop.

In article ,
trader_4 wrote:

Expences will constantly rise given time. Going
solar now might save a true fortune in the future.

Sure sink big $$$ today so that if energy costs more in 2030,
you'll be ready. Remember when Jimmy Carter and the experts told
us we were running out of oil in the 70's? How well did that
work out?

remember when gas prices were below $1/gallon? must not be running out
of oil

Malcom \"Mal\" Reynolds wrote:

In article ,
trader_4 wrote:

Expences will constantly rise given time. Going
solar now might save a true fortune in the future.

Sure sink big $$$ today so that if energy costs more in 2030,
you'll be ready. Remember when Jimmy Carter and the experts told
us we were running out of oil in the 70's? How well did that
work out?

remember when gas prices were below $1/gallon? must not be running out
of oil

When gas was below $1/gal, the US Dollar was also worth quite a bit more
than it is today. Between the built-in depreciation of the Dollar and
the "Quantitative Easing" taxation of every Dollar in existence the
value has fallen considerably.

Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:

remember when gas prices were below $1/gallon? must not be running out
of oil

It's been all downhill since Sunoco 200 made it up to 25 cents a gallon...

Per Malcom "Mal" Reynolds:
remember when gas prices were below $1/gallon? must not be running out
of oil

27-cent gas in 1961 was really $2.15 per gallon in 2014 dollars per
http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm
--
Pete Cresswell

"(PeteCresswell)" wrote:

Per Malcom "Mal" Reynolds:
remember when gas prices were below $1/gallon? must not be running out
of oil

27-cent gas in 1961 was really $2.15 per gallon in 2014 dollars per
http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

Yes, just for normal "inflation" which is really deflation of the
currency value. Now add in the last few years of "Quantitative Easing"
taxation of every dollar in existence and you find that current fuel
prices are pretty well on par with what they were back then.

Per (PeteCresswell):
27-cent gas in 1961 was really $2.15 per gallon in 2014 dollars per
http://www.bls.gov/data/inflation_calculator.htm

....and the $1.00 minimum wage I earned at a chicken hatchery during high
school (1957) was really $8.47/hour in 2014 dollars.
--
Pete Cresswell

On 11/06/2014 12:30 PM, Malcom "Mal" Reynolds wrote:

[snip]

remember when gas prices were below $1/gallon? must not be running out
of oil


$.90/gallon around here in early 1990, during the gulf war when people
expected it to go up.

--
48 days until the winter celebration (Thursday December 25, 2014
12:00:00 AM for 1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us

"The most important part of computer repair is using the correct pliers
for pounding in the screws."

Thanks to high electricity prices and low gas prices it now costs less
per mile to run our Prius Plug-In on gasoline than on electricity.
Miles per Gallon: 45
Price per Gallon: $3.00
Cost Per Gasoline Mile: 6.67¢
Miles per KWH: 4
Price per KWH: $0.324 (no joke!)
Cost Per Electric Mile: 8.10¢

I would LOVE to have an electric car, even if it cost more per mile to
drive. Unfortunately, the initial cost of an electric car puts them way
out of my price range.

I realize I am in the minority, but I drive an old 1976 VW Rabbit.

www.watsondiy.com/rabbit.htm

I bought it used for $850 in 1988 and have spent approximately $8000 on
maintenance and repairs since then. I keep a log of my fuel expenses and
have spent $9200 on gas since I have owned the car. I get about 25mpg
now, but it has been as low as 19mpg when I was having carburetor issues.

So, in 26 years the car has cost me less than $18,000, including the
vehicle cost, maintenance, and fuel. That includes a new paint job, and
an engine replacement. It currently has about 400,000 miles on it.

At my current rate, I could drive my old car another 26 years and still
come out less than the cost of most electric vehicles. Even if I have to
rebuild the engine and repaint the car again.

From an environmental aspect, it takes a lot more energy and polution to
manufacturer all the steel, plastics, and rubber that make up a new
vehicle. The "cash for clunkers" program years ago made no sense to me as
a lot more energy and polution would be used to build all those new cars
than the better efficiency would provide. Not to mention the energy and
waste to recycle the old vehicles.

Cars lose value so quickly I would never buy a brand new vehicle. Every
car we have ever purchased has been at least 10 years old, and we've
never paid more than $4000 for a vehicle.

Of course, I realize everyone doesn't have the desire or ability to drive
an old car (maintenance costs would be MUCH higher if you had to pay
shops to do the work). At some point age and rust, or accident damage
will force you to buy a newer vehicle. Or, you just might WANT a newer
vehicle.

To each their own, but paying $30K and up for a new car to get slightly
lower cost per mile just doesn't make sense.

Anthony Watson
www.watsondiy.com
www.mountainsoftware.com

Per HerHusband:
I realize I am in the minority, but I drive an old 1976 VW Rabbit.

www.watsondiy.com/rabbit.htm

That is a beautiful story.

Makes me wish I had tried to repair the rusted-out roof on my old
Suburban (300k miles) instead of selling it.
--
Pete Cresswell

In article ,
HerHusband wrote:


From an environmental aspect, it takes a lot more energy and polution to
manufacturer all the steel, plastics, and rubber that make up a new
vehicle. The "cash for clunkers" program years ago made no sense to me as
a lot more energy and polution would be used to build all those new cars
than the better efficiency would provide. Not to mention the energy and
waste to recycle the old vehicles.

Assuming the CfC was environment in nature. It was much more to get
people to buy new cars and keep the automakers in business until "real"
demand took off again. The pollution stuff was just a bone tossed to
certain groups for campaign money (and they actually fell for it!)
--
³Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive,
but what they conceal is vital.²
‹ Aaron Levenstein

On 11/4/2014 10:58 AM, SMS wrote:
Thanks to high electricity prices and low gas prices it now costs less
per mile to run our Prius Plug-In on gasoline than on electricity.

Miles per Gallon: 45
Price per Gallon: $3.00
Cost Per Gasoline Mile: 6.67¢

Miles per KWH: 4
Price per KWH: $0.324 (no joke!)
Cost Per Electric Mile: 8.10¢

Today I paid $2.73 ($2.84 minus a 4% rebate)

Miles per Gallon: 45
Price per Gallon: $3.00
Cost Per Gasoline Mile: 6.07¢

Miles per KWH: 4
Price per KWH: $0.324 (no joke!)
Cost Per Electric Mile: 8.10¢

About a 35% premium to use electricity.