On 26/07/2017 02:30, bm wrote:
"bm" wrote in message
web.com...
The national grid must be ****ing themselves.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-new...be-banned-2040
A typical worker thinks we just plug'em in and off to work we go.
We have to pay HOW MUCH?
French strike is called.
Ohhhh, it's the libdems, forget it.
Jeremy is still pondering, there's a surprise.

One of the comments -
Oh well looks like we will be back in the dark ages with a horse and trap as
the family transport. At least part of a horses emmisions are useful on the
roses.



It only applies to new vehicles produced after 2040, there will still be
a lot of petrol/diesel engined cars on the road for many years after that.

In article , Ash Burton
wrote:
On 26/07/2017 02:30, bm wrote:
"bm" wrote in message
web.com...
The national grid must be ****ing themselves.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-new...be-banned-2040
A typical worker thinks we just plug'em in and off to work we go. We
have to pay HOW MUCH? French strike is called. Ohhhh, it's the
libdems, forget it. Jeremy is still pondering, there's a surprise.

One of the comments - Oh well looks like we will be back in the dark
ages with a horse and trap as the family transport. At least part of a
horses emmisions are useful on the roses.



It only applies to new vehicles produced after 2040, there will still be
a lot of petrol/diesel engined cars on the road for many years after that.

by then I would be 100 years old, so probably won't be driving

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 26-Jul-17 9:38 AM, Ash Burton wrote:
....
It only applies to new vehicles produced after 2040, there will still be
a lot of petrol/diesel engined cars on the road for many years after that.

I predict a big boost in sales of new petrol and diesel cars in 2039 :-)

--
--

Colin Bignell

On Wednesday, 26 July 2017 09:46:23 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
It only applies to new vehicles produced after 2040, there will still be
a lot of petrol/diesel engined cars on the road for many years after that.
I predict a big boost in sales of new petrol and diesel cars in 2039 :-)

Depends on the cost of petrol and diesel, and the MOT and emissions requirements for petrol and diesel cars.

Can we build (er, buy flat-pack from China) some nice nuclear power stations within the next 23 years?

Owain

On 7/26/2017 10:05 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 July 2017 09:46:23 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
It only applies to new vehicles produced after 2040, there will still be
a lot of petrol/diesel engined cars on the road for many years after that.
I predict a big boost in sales of new petrol and diesel cars in 2039 :-)

Depends on the cost of petrol and diesel, and the MOT and emissions requirements for petrol and diesel cars.

Can we build (er, buy flat-pack from China) some nice nuclear power stations within the next 23 years?

Owain



I think that might just about be long enough for some small, modular
reactors (SMRs) to become commercially available. I think real
commercial prototypes are a decade away, and allow another decade for
regulatory acceptance.

I'm very confident that the Chinese will be able to build full sized
ones just about anywhere suitable by then.

In article ,
wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 July 2017 09:46:23 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
It only applies to new vehicles produced after 2040, there will still
be a lot of petrol/diesel engined cars on the road for many years
after that.
I predict a big boost in sales of new petrol and diesel cars in 2039 :-)

Depends on the cost of petrol and diesel, and the MOT and emissions
requirements for petrol and diesel cars.


and the range of electric vehicles. I am used to driving over 400 miles in
a day. And don't say tak ethe train, I do wehn I've only a small case, but
when I have a full car-load of equipment .....



--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 26/07/2017 09:42, charles wrote:

It only applies to new vehicles produced after 2040, there will still be
a lot of petrol/diesel engined cars on the road for many years after that.

by then I would be 100 years old, so probably won't be driving


By 2040 you won't need to drive the car, the computer will do it.

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article , Ash Burton
wrote:
On 26/07/2017 02:30, bm wrote:
"bm" wrote in message
web.com...
The national grid must be ****ing themselves.
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-new...be-banned-2040
A typical worker thinks we just plug'em in and off to work we go. We
have to pay HOW MUCH? French strike is called. Ohhhh, it's the
libdems, forget it. Jeremy is still pondering, there's a surprise.

One of the comments - Oh well looks like we will be back in the dark
ages with a horse and trap as the family transport. At least part of a
horses emmisions are useful on the roses.



It only applies to new vehicles produced after 2040, there will still be
a lot of petrol/diesel engined cars on the road for many years after
that.

by then I would be 100 years old, so probably won't be driving

You may well be dozing off in your self driving
car during your day out from the care home tho.

On 26/07/2017 09:46, Nightjar wrote:
On 26-Jul-17 9:38 AM, Ash Burton wrote:
...
It only applies to new vehicles produced after 2040, there will still
be a lot of petrol/diesel engined cars on the road for many years
after that.

I predict a big boost in sales of new petrol and diesel cars in 2039 :-)


You would buy a car when the fuel will become harder to find?
As cars get scraped the garages will close due to lack of fuel sales and
anyone buying the last of the fuel driven cars will end up with no fuel
or expensive fuel long before the vehicle has worn out.

Maybe you will be able to synthesis it from gas and electricity by then?

On 26-Jul-17 10:34 AM, dennis@home wrote:
On 26/07/2017 09:46, Nightjar wrote:
On 26-Jul-17 9:38 AM, Ash Burton wrote:
...
It only applies to new vehicles produced after 2040, there will still
be a lot of petrol/diesel engined cars on the road for many years
after that.

I predict a big boost in sales of new petrol and diesel cars in 2039 :-)


You would buy a car when the fuel will become harder to find?
As cars get scraped the garages will close due to lack of fuel sales and
anyone buying the last of the fuel driven cars will end up with no fuel
or expensive fuel long before the vehicle has worn out.

Barring a very major change in technology, diesel will still be needed
for HGVs and most petrol cars can be converted to run on LPG, which does
not appear to be covered in the proposals.

Maybe you will be able to synthesis it from gas and electricity by then?

It would be far better for the government to mandate emissions levels
and leave it for the car industry to decide how they achieve that.

--
--

Colin Bignell

"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...
On 26/07/2017 09:46, Nightjar wrote:
On 26-Jul-17 9:38 AM, Ash Burton wrote:
...
It only applies to new vehicles produced after 2040, there will still be
a lot of petrol/diesel engined cars on the road for many years after
that.

I predict a big boost in sales of new petrol and diesel cars in 2039 :-)


You would buy a car when the fuel will become harder to find?

Yep, its always going to be MUCH easier than farting around
recharging your steaming turd of an electric car every 100 miles.

As cars get scraped the garages will close due to lack of fuel sales

Sure, but some will remain and they will
always be a lot closer than 100 miles away.

and anyone buying the last of the fuel driven cars will end up with no
fuel or expensive fuel long before the vehicle has worn out.

Bull****, because plenty will buy petrol and diesel cars while they can.

And it aint gunna happen anyway, they wont be
banned, you watch, the voters wont wear it.

On 26/07/2017 10:57, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 10:34:18 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 26/07/2017 09:46, Nightjar wrote:
On 26-Jul-17 9:38 AM, Ash Burton wrote:
...
It only applies to new vehicles produced after 2040, there will still
be a lot of petrol/diesel engined cars on the road for many years
after that.

I predict a big boost in sales of new petrol and diesel cars in 2039 :-)


You would buy a car when the fuel will become harder to find?
As cars get scraped the garages will close due to lack of fuel sales and
anyone buying the last of the fuel driven cars will end up with no fuel
or expensive fuel long before the vehicle has worn out.

Maybe you will be able to synthesis it from gas and electricity by then?

You could just convert them to run on gas. Back in the ?1960's, during
the fuel rationing, our workshop technician modified the carb on his
car to take gas (I think it was an SU carb and he just drilled out the
jet and made a new needle), and had a bottle of propane on the back
seat with a length of hose to the carb. How he didn't blow himself up,
I don't know. The main problem was the gas bottle icing up.

Can't imagine anyone doing anything like that now, although I guess
more professional conversion kits are available.


You could but, the range will be somewhat less unless you can find
somewhere to fit a big gas tank.

Also there probably won't be many places to fill up.

On 26/07/2017 10:24, charles wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
On Wednesday, 26 July 2017 09:46:23 UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
It only applies to new vehicles produced after 2040, there will still
be a lot of petrol/diesel engined cars on the road for many years
after that.
I predict a big boost in sales of new petrol and diesel cars in 2039 :-)

Depends on the cost of petrol and diesel, and the MOT and emissions
requirements for petrol and diesel cars.


and the range of electric vehicles. I am used to driving over 400 miles in
a day. And don't say tak ethe train, I do wehn I've only a small case, but
when I have a full car-load of equipment .....

If you drive 400 miles in a day, then that's mostly motorway or A
roads, so your car will use the 'Salextric' type slots which will be in
the road by then.

Cheers
--
Clive

On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 11:14:52 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

On 26/07/2017 10:57, Chris Hogg wrote:

Can't imagine anyone doing anything like that now, although I guess
more professional conversion kits are available.


You could but, the range will be somewhat less unless you can find
somewhere to fit a big gas tank.

Also there probably won't be many places to fill up.

More than you imagine.

http://www.drivelpg.co.uk/i-have-lpg...lling-station/

or have a look at the Shell UK site for Shell's own forecourts only.

On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 11:22:03 +0100, Clive Arthur
wrote:



If you drive 400 miles in a day, then that's mostly motorway or A
roads, so your car will use the 'Salextric' type slots which will be in
the road by then.


It 'would need a bit of heavy engineering , London Trams used such a
system on many of the inner sections of their routes and by the time
they were abandoned they were getting trouble from the edges of the
slot being damaged and bent in by heavier road vehicles, and that was
"heavy" by 1950's std.
And Trams were not doing much above 20-30mph.
Lots of photos at how much engineering was required on here.
http://www.dewi.ca/trains/london/trams.html

A small bit remains visible on the tram tunnel entrance in the road
near Holborn tube station,
https://assets.londonist.com/uploads..._entrance1.jpg

G.Harman

On 26/07/2017 11:58, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 11:22:03 +0100, Clive Arthur
wrote:



If you drive 400 miles in a day, then that's mostly motorway or A
roads, so your car will use the 'Salextric' type slots which will be in
the road by then.


It 'would need a bit of heavy engineering , London Trams used such a
system on many of the inner sections of their routes and by the time
they were abandoned they were getting trouble from the edges of the
slot being damaged and bent in by heavier road vehicles, and that was
"heavy" by 1950's std.
And Trams were not doing much above 20-30mph.
Lots of photos at how much engineering was required on here.
http://www.dewi.ca/trains/london/trams.html

A small bit remains visible on the tram tunnel entrance in the road
near Holborn tube station,
https://assets.londonist.com/uploads..._entrance1.jpg

G.Harman

I wasn't being entirely serious, but you don't need an actual slot, the
computer control would position the car and/or pickups.

This system used a slot, but only to guide the bogie through the
'points'. Look what happens when get it wrong...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvAHgwNkbHU

Rich men and their toys. I wasn't there that day.

Cheers
--
Clive

On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 12:26:19 +0100, Clive Arthur
wrote:

On 26/07/2017 11:58, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 11:22:03 +0100, Clive Arthur
wrote:



If you drive 400 miles in a day, then that's mostly motorway or A
roads, so your car will use the 'Salextric' type slots which will be in
the road by then.


It 'would need a bit of heavy engineering , London Trams used such a
system on many of the inner sections of their routes

I wasn't being entirely serious, but you don't need an actual slot, the
computer control would position the car and/or pickups.

This system used a slot, but only to guide the bogie through the
'points'. Look what happens when get it wrong...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvAHgwNkbHU

I was trying to remember the name of that a few weeks back when there
was some discussion about the Parry people mover, remember that clip
going out on the evening news.

G.Harman

On 26/07/2017 11:22, Mark Allread wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 11:14:52 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

On 26/07/2017 10:57, Chris Hogg wrote:

Can't imagine anyone doing anything like that now, although I guess
more professional conversion kits are available.


You could but, the range will be somewhat less unless you can find
somewhere to fit a big gas tank.

Also there probably won't be many places to fill up.

More than you imagine.

http://www.drivelpg.co.uk/i-have-lpg...lling-station/

or have a look at the Shell UK site for Shell's own forecourts only.


That's the figures for 2040 onwards is it?

On 26/07/2017 12:39, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 12:26:19 +0100, Clive Arthur
wrote:

On 26/07/2017 11:58, wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 11:22:03 +0100, Clive Arthur
wrote:



If you drive 400 miles in a day, then that's mostly motorway or A
roads, so your car will use the 'Salextric' type slots which will be in
the road by then.


It 'would need a bit of heavy engineering , London Trams used such a
system on many of the inner sections of their routes

I wasn't being entirely serious, but you don't need an actual slot, the
computer control would position the car and/or pickups.

This system used a slot, but only to guide the bogie through the
'points'. Look what happens when get it wrong...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvAHgwNkbHU

I was trying to remember the name of that a few weeks back when there
was some discussion about the Parry people mover, remember that clip
going out on the evening news.

G.Harman

It (Briway) was badly organised, every part was new, nothing was taken
from existing buses/trams/trains. Bristow was incapable of hearing what
he didn't want to hear. He threw it out of his pram after the crash.

I wrote the motor control software. That bit worked.

Cheers
--
Clive

On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 13:04:13 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

On 26/07/2017 11:22, Mark Allread wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 11:14:52 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

On 26/07/2017 10:57, Chris Hogg wrote:

Can't imagine anyone doing anything like that now, although I guess
more professional conversion kits are available.


You could but, the range will be somewhat less unless you can find
somewhere to fit a big gas tank.

Also there probably won't be many places to fill up.

More than you imagine.

http://www.drivelpg.co.uk/i-have-lpg...lling-station/

or have a look at the Shell UK site for Shell's own forecourts only.


That's the figures for 2040 onwards is it?

Sorry, I forgot you have literacy problems. I suggest you print out the
pages on the links given above and take them to someone who can
understand them and get them to tell you what the words mean.

On 7/26/2017 11:01 AM, Nightjar wrote:
On 26-Jul-17 10:34 AM, dennis@home wrote:
On 26/07/2017 09:46, Nightjar wrote:
On 26-Jul-17 9:38 AM, Ash Burton wrote:
...
It only applies to new vehicles produced after 2040, there will
still be a lot of petrol/diesel engined cars on the road for many
years after that.

I predict a big boost in sales of new petrol and diesel cars in 2039 :-)


You would buy a car when the fuel will become harder to find?
As cars get scraped the garages will close due to lack of fuel sales
and anyone buying the last of the fuel driven cars will end up with no
fuel or expensive fuel long before the vehicle has worn out.

Barring a very major change in technology, diesel will still be needed
for HGVs and most petrol cars can be converted to run on LPG, which does
not appear to be covered in the proposals.

Hadn't realised LPG wasn't included, but on that timescale HGVs and long
distance coaches could be developed to run on gas


Maybe you will be able to synthesis it from gas and electricity by then?

It would be far better for the government to mandate emissions levels
and leave it for the car industry to decide how they achieve that.


Normally I would tend to agree, but at least a ban on fossil fuels
pushes everyone down the same route, it also eliminates the need to
have, and regulate, the distribution infrastructure.

dennis@home wrote:
On 26/07/2017 09:42, charles wrote:

It only applies to new vehicles produced after 2040, there will still be
a lot of petrol/diesel engined cars on the road for many years after
that.

by then I would be 100 years old, so probably won't be driving


By 2040 you won't need to drive the car, the computer will do it.


That premise is as valid as the 50yr old one about us having a
paperless office!

On 26/07/2017 14:02, Mark Allread wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 13:04:13 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

On 26/07/2017 11:22, Mark Allread wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 11:14:52 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

On 26/07/2017 10:57, Chris Hogg wrote:

Can't imagine anyone doing anything like that now, although I guess
more professional conversion kits are available.


You could but, the range will be somewhat less unless you can find
somewhere to fit a big gas tank.

Also there probably won't be many places to fill up.

More than you imagine.

http://www.drivelpg.co.uk/i-have-lpg...lling-station/

or have a look at the Shell UK site for Shell's own forecourts only.


That's the figures for 2040 onwards is it?

Sorry, I forgot you have literacy problems. I suggest you print out the
pages on the links given above and take them to someone who can
understand them and get them to tell you what the words mean.


Try and think about it..

less petrol and diesel cars so less petrol stations.

Now where are these gas filling stations?

On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 16:43:19 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

On 26/07/2017 14:02, Mark Allread wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 13:04:13 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

On 26/07/2017 11:22, Mark Allread wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 11:14:52 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

On 26/07/2017 10:57, Chris Hogg wrote:

Can't imagine anyone doing anything like that now, although I guess
more professional conversion kits are available.


You could but, the range will be somewhat less unless you can find
somewhere to fit a big gas tank.

Also there probably won't be many places to fill up.

More than you imagine.

http://www.drivelpg.co.uk/i-have-lpg...lling-station/

or have a look at the Shell UK site for Shell's own forecourts only.


That's the figures for 2040 onwards is it?

Sorry, I forgot you have literacy problems. I suggest you print out
the pages on the links given above and take them to someone who can
understand them and get them to tell you what the words mean.


Try and think about it..

less petrol and diesel cars so less petrol stations.

Now where are these gas filling stations?

You did as I suggested did you and got someone to explain the words on
the links to you?

"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...

Try and think about it..

less petrol and diesel cars so less petrol stations.

Now where are these gas filling stations?

Given that those petrol stations will still need to exist as charging or
battery-exchange stations, I wonder whether the number of stations will
continue relatively unchanged and that they just sell less fuel (and
therefore order less from their supplier) than at present. I suppose some
smaller garages might decide that the sales of petrol/diesel have reached
such a small amount that it is no longer worth buying *any* and maintaining
the pumps and the tanks.

On 26/07/2017 16:49, NY wrote:
"dennis@home" wrote in message
web.com...

Try and think about it..

less petrol and diesel cars so less petrol stations.

Now where are these gas filling stations?

Given that those petrol stations will still need to exist as charging or
battery-exchange stations, I wonder whether the number of stations will
continue relatively unchanged and that they just sell less fuel (and
therefore order less from their supplier) than at present. I suppose
some smaller garages might decide that the sales of petrol/diesel have
reached such a small amount that it is no longer worth buying *any* and
maintaining the pumps and the tanks.

I would expect them to close and be replaced with charging stations
elsewhere like they are outside supermarkets now.

Some will remain but there will be far fewer if the ban does take place.
Unless there is a massive increase in the number of gas fuelled cars,
which is doubtful.

On 26-Jul-17 2:06 PM, newshound wrote:
On 7/26/2017 11:01 AM, Nightjar wrote:
....
Barring a very major change in technology, diesel will still be needed
for HGVs and most petrol cars can be converted to run on LPG, which
does not appear to be covered in the proposals.

Hadn't realised LPG wasn't included, but on that timescale HGVs and long
distance coaches could be developed to run on gas

LPG is already being promoted by some manufacturers as the future for
LGVs, but not everybody seems convinced. It remains to be seen whether
it is as successful as they hope, or goes the way of the Leyland gas
turbine truck.

....
It would be far better for the government to mandate emissions levels
and leave it for the car industry to decide how they achieve that.


Normally I would tend to agree, but at least a ban on fossil fuels
pushes everyone down the same route,...

Which is not necessarily a good thing, especially if it is a dead end.




--
--

Colin Bignell

On 7/26/2017 6:23 PM, Nightjar wrote:
On 26-Jul-17 2:06 PM, newshound wrote:
On 7/26/2017 11:01 AM, Nightjar wrote:
...
Barring a very major change in technology, diesel will still be
needed for HGVs and most petrol cars can be converted to run on LPG,
which does not appear to be covered in the proposals.

Hadn't realised LPG wasn't included, but on that timescale HGVs and
long distance coaches could be developed to run on gas

LPG is already being promoted by some manufacturers as the future for
LGVs, but not everybody seems convinced. It remains to be seen whether
it is as successful as they hope, or goes the way of the Leyland gas
turbine truck.

...
It would be far better for the government to mandate emissions levels
and leave it for the car industry to decide how they achieve that.


Normally I would tend to agree, but at least a ban on fossil fuels
pushes everyone down the same route,...

Which is not necessarily a good thing, especially if it is a dead end.




But it seems to me self evident that electric vehicles are *not* a dead
end. My wife and I have just gone down from four to three road vehicles,
and actually pretty much the most basic electric would be fine for at
least 90% of our journeys. It's just the capital cost which stops me
from getting one at the moment.

"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 10:34:18 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 26/07/2017 09:46, Nightjar wrote:
On 26-Jul-17 9:38 AM, Ash Burton wrote:
...
It only applies to new vehicles produced after 2040, there will still
be a lot of petrol/diesel engined cars on the road for many years
after that.

I predict a big boost in sales of new petrol and diesel cars in 2039 :-)


You would buy a car when the fuel will become harder to find?
As cars get scraped the garages will close due to lack of fuel sales and
anyone buying the last of the fuel driven cars will end up with no fuel
or expensive fuel long before the vehicle has worn out.

Maybe you will be able to synthesis it from gas and electricity by then?

You could just convert them to run on gas. Back in the ?1960's, during
the fuel rationing, our workshop technician modified the carb on his
car to take gas (I think it was an SU carb and he just drilled out the
jet and made a new needle), and had a bottle of propane on the back
seat with a length of hose to the carb. How he didn't blow himself up,
I don't know. The main problem was the gas bottle icing up.

Can't imagine anyone doing anything like that now, although I guess
more professional conversion kits are available.

Yes there are, all our taxis run on LPG.

On 26-Jul-17 8:38 PM, newshound wrote:
....
But it seems to me self evident that electric vehicles are *not* a dead
end. My wife and I have just gone down from four to three road vehicles,
and actually pretty much the most basic electric would be fine for at
least 90% of our journeys. It's just the capital cost which stops me
from getting one at the moment.

My car has a range of around 500-600 miles on a single tank, refills in
a few minutes and can carry five people with luggage, or a lot of
luggage for two people. I don't need all of those every trip, but I do
need them from time to time and only have the one car. All electric cars
are a long way from giving me what I need.

If the manufacturers were given a free hand as how to achieve set
pollution levels, they could, for example, choose to make hybrids that
only ran on electricity in the areas where air quality is an issue;
easily done with GPS. Jaguar did a concept hybrid, using miniature gas
turbines to run the generators, which are far more efficient and cleaner
than ICEs, however that still needed fossil fuel to run. By planning to
ban new petrol and diesel cars, the government is preventing
developments of that sort.


--
--

Colin Bignell

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 26-Jul-17 8:38 PM, newshound wrote:
...
But it seems to me self evident that electric vehicles are *not* a dead
end. My wife and I have just gone down from four to three road vehicles,
and actually pretty much the most basic electric would be fine for at
least 90% of our journeys. It's just the capital cost which stops me from
getting one at the moment.

My car has a range of around 500-600 miles on a single tank, refills in a
few minutes and can carry five people with luggage, or a lot of luggage
for two people. I don't need all of those every trip, but I do need them
from time to time and only have the one car. All electric cars are a long
way from giving me what I need.

If the manufacturers were given a free hand as how to achieve set
pollution levels, they could, for example, choose to make hybrids that
only ran on electricity in the areas where air quality is an issue; easily
done with GPS. Jaguar did a concept hybrid, using miniature gas turbines
to run the generators, which are far more efficient and cleaner than ICEs,
however that still needed fossil fuel to run. By planning to ban new
petrol and diesel cars, the government is preventing developments of that
sort.

As a matter of interest, are most hybrid cars propelled entirely by electric
motors, with the power coming from either batteries or
petrol/diesel-electric generator? Or does the engine drive the wheels
*mechanically* (as in a conventional car) when you no longer need
low-pollution electric propulsion. If it's the former, you have the
advantages of the extra control (eg automatic acceleration profile) and of
single gear ratio, with none of the discontinuities that auto/manual
gearboxes cause as you change ratio and the dreaded surge of power when an
auto box unexpectedly changes down as you call for more power in a situation
where in a manual car I'd hold onto my present gear and simply press the
accelerator a bit further - it is this thing that I find hardest to adjust
to when driving an auto car: gauging the accelerator pressure to give me the
acceleration that I want, neither too little in a higher gear nor too much
in a lower gear.

On 27-Jul-17 10:18 AM, NY wrote:
....
As a matter of interest, are most hybrid cars propelled entirely by
electric motors, with the power coming from either batteries or
petrol/diesel-electric generator? Or does the engine drive the wheels
*mechanically* (as in a conventional car) when you no longer need
low-pollution electric propulsion. ...

I think it varies. Some, such as the Jaguar I mentioned, use only
electric motors to drive the wheels, while others, often described as
electric assist, use either or both systems to drive the wheels. The
former is mechanically simpler and probably cheaper to implement.

If it's the former, you have the
advantages of the extra control (eg automatic acceleration profile) and
of single gear ratio, with none of the discontinuities that auto/manual
gearboxes cause as you change ratio and the dreaded surge of power when
an auto box unexpectedly changes down as you call for more power in a
situation where in a manual car I'd hold onto my present gear and simply
press the accelerator a bit further - it is this thing that I find
hardest to adjust to when driving an auto car: gauging the accelerator
pressure to give me the acceleration that I want, neither too little in
a higher gear nor too much in a lower gear.

You need to drive a better quality of auto :-)


--
--

Colin Bignell

On 27/07/17 10:18, NY wrote:
As a matter of interest, are most hybrid cars propelled entirely by
electric motors, with the power coming from either batteries or
petrol/diesel-electric generator? Or does the engine drive the wheels
*mechanically* (as in a conventional car) when you no longer need
low-pollution electric propulsion.

The Prius is so ingenious and complex its hard to actually say. At a
given point yoiu can regard teh leccy bits as a two way torue
converter/energy harvester or as motors and generators.


--
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.

On 27/07/17 10:59, Nightjar wrote:
On 27-Jul-17 10:18 AM, NY wrote:
...
As a matter of interest, are most hybrid cars propelled entirely by
electric motors, with the power coming from either batteries or
petrol/diesel-electric generator? Or does the engine drive the wheels
*mechanically* (as in a conventional car) when you no longer need
low-pollution electric propulsion. ...

I think it varies. Some, such as the Jaguar I mentioned, use only
electric motors to drive the wheels, while others, often described as
electric assist, use either or both systems to drive the wheels. The
former is mechanically simpler and probably cheaper to implement.

If it's the former, you have the advantages of the extra control (eg
automatic acceleration profile) and of single gear ratio, with none of
the discontinuities that auto/manual gearboxes cause as you change
ratio and the dreaded surge of power when an auto box unexpectedly
changes down as you call for more power in a situation where in a
manual car I'd hold onto my present gear and simply press the
accelerator a bit further - it is this thing that I find hardest to
adjust to when driving an auto car: gauging the accelerator pressure
to give me the acceleration that I want, neither too little in a
higher gear nor too much in a lower gear.

You need to drive a better quality of auto :-)


Agreed. I havent seen that sort of behiviour from an auto in years


--
The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

Anon.

On 27/07/2017 09:36, Nightjar wrote:
On 26-Jul-17 8:38 PM, newshound wrote:
...
But it seems to me self evident that electric vehicles are *not* a
dead end. My wife and I have just gone down from four to three road
vehicles, and actually pretty much the most basic electric would be
fine for at least 90% of our journeys. It's just the capital cost
which stops me from getting one at the moment.

My car has a range of around 500-600 miles on a single tank, refills in
a few minutes and can carry five people with luggage, or a lot of
luggage for two people. I don't need all of those every trip, but I do
need them from time to time and only have the one car. All electric cars
are a long way from giving me what I need.

If the manufacturers were given a free hand as how to achieve set
pollution levels, they could, for example, choose to make hybrids that
only ran on electricity in the areas where air quality is an issue;
easily done with GPS. Jaguar did a concept hybrid, using miniature gas
turbines to run the generators, which are far more efficient and cleaner
than ICEs, however that still needed fossil fuel to run. By planning to
ban new petrol and diesel cars, the government is preventing
developments of that sort.



We have seen what the manufacturers do when given emissions targets to
achieve, aka VW.

They can't do that with a zero target.

On 27-Jul-17 3:16 PM, dennis@home wrote:
On 27/07/2017 09:36, Nightjar wrote:
On 26-Jul-17 8:38 PM, newshound wrote:
...
But it seems to me self evident that electric vehicles are *not* a
dead end. My wife and I have just gone down from four to three road
vehicles, and actually pretty much the most basic electric would be
fine for at least 90% of our journeys. It's just the capital cost
which stops me from getting one at the moment.

My car has a range of around 500-600 miles on a single tank, refills
in a few minutes and can carry five people with luggage, or a lot of
luggage for two people. I don't need all of those every trip, but I do
need them from time to time and only have the one car. All electric
cars are a long way from giving me what I need.

If the manufacturers were given a free hand as how to achieve set
pollution levels, they could, for example, choose to make hybrids that
only ran on electricity in the areas where air quality is an issue;
easily done with GPS. Jaguar did a concept hybrid, using miniature gas
turbines to run the generators, which are far more efficient and
cleaner than ICEs, however that still needed fossil fuel to run. By
planning to ban new petrol and diesel cars, the government is
preventing developments of that sort.



We have seen what the manufacturers do when given emissions targets to
achieve, aka VW.

It is very unlikely that anybody would get away with something similar
again.


They can't do that with a zero target.

However, it is only in certain urban areas, where a zero target is
necessary, hence my suggestion that hybrids that use only their electric
drives in those areas, is a much more viable alternative solution.

Of course, post Brexit, the government won't be bound to adopt the EU
air quality standards, which were the basis of the Supreme Court ruling.

--
--

Colin Bignell

On 26/07/2017 10:34, dennis@home wrote:
On 26/07/2017 09:46, Nightjar wrote:
On 26-Jul-17 9:38 AM, Ash Burton wrote:
...
It only applies to new vehicles produced after 2040, there will still
be a lot of petrol/diesel engined cars on the road for many years
after that.

I predict a big boost in sales of new petrol and diesel cars in 2039 :-)


You would buy a car when the fuel will become harder to find?
As cars get scraped the garages will close due to lack of fuel sales and
anyone buying the last of the fuel driven cars will end up with no fuel
or expensive fuel long before the vehicle has worn out.

Maybe you will be able to synthesis it from gas and electricity by then?

They're not planning on banning even new petrol or diesel cars in 2040.
They are only planning to ban new purely petrol or diesel ones, hybrids
will still be permitted, so they'll still be requiring fuel.

Unless electric vehicle technology (and the grid) come on massively or
maybe the Hydrogen economy takes off, large numbers of petrol stations
will still be required and fuel will still be available for older,
purely petrol or diesel cars - assuming they've not been totally banned
from many places.

SteveW

On 27/07/2017 18:24, Nightjar wrote:

Of course, post Brexit, the government won't be bound to adopt the EU
air quality standards, which were the basis of the Supreme Court ruling.


They will though.

On 26/07/2017 14:06, newshound wrote:
On 7/26/2017 11:01 AM, Nightjar wrote:
On 26-Jul-17 10:34 AM, dennis@home wrote:
On 26/07/2017 09:46, Nightjar wrote:
On 26-Jul-17 9:38 AM, Ash Burton wrote:
...
It only applies to new vehicles produced after 2040, there will
still be a lot of petrol/diesel engined cars on the road for many
years after that.

I predict a big boost in sales of new petrol and diesel cars in 2039
:-)


You would buy a car when the fuel will become harder to find?
As cars get scraped the garages will close due to lack of fuel sales
and anyone buying the last of the fuel driven cars will end up with
no fuel or expensive fuel long before the vehicle has worn out.

Barring a very major change in technology, diesel will still be needed
for HGVs and most petrol cars can be converted to run on LPG, which
does not appear to be covered in the proposals.

Hadn't realised LPG wasn't included, but on that timescale HGVs and long
distance coaches could be developed to run on gas


Maybe you will be able to synthesis it from gas and electricity by then?

It would be far better for the government to mandate emissions levels
and leave it for the car industry to decide how they achieve that.


Normally I would tend to agree, but at least a ban on fossil fuels
pushes everyone down the same route, it also eliminates the need to
have, and regulate, the distribution infrastructure.

Not all articles are making it clear, but it is slowly trickling out
that they're not banning new fossil fueled vehicles - only ones which
only operate on fossil fuels - so hybrids will still be needing petrol
or diesel.

SteveW

On 27/07/2017 19:20, Steve Walker wrote:
On 26/07/2017 10:34, dennis@home wrote:
On 26/07/2017 09:46, Nightjar wrote:
On 26-Jul-17 9:38 AM, Ash Burton wrote:
...
It only applies to new vehicles produced after 2040, there will
still be a lot of petrol/diesel engined cars on the road for many
years after that.

I predict a big boost in sales of new petrol and diesel cars in 2039 :-)


You would buy a car when the fuel will become harder to find?
As cars get scraped the garages will close due to lack of fuel sales
and anyone buying the last of the fuel driven cars will end up with no
fuel or expensive fuel long before the vehicle has worn out.

Maybe you will be able to synthesis it from gas and electricity by then?

They're not planning on banning even new petrol or diesel cars in 2040.
They are only planning to ban new purely petrol or diesel ones, hybrids
will still be permitted, so they'll still be requiring fuel.

Possibly petrol but I doubt anyone will be making a diesel hybrid by
then, not unless they clean them up.


Unless electric vehicle technology (and the grid) come on massively or
maybe the Hydrogen economy takes off,

The hydrogen economy is a joke.