On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 11:21:02 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:



of course. Which is why - especially given it's glacial timescale - HS2
seems like an absolute waste of money.

Driverless cars will never match the speed of a train between city centres.

Who knows what may happen, a train at present is a collection of
vehicles physically joined together , could in the future a
collection of vehicles such as driverless cars virtually joined
together be classed as a train with vehicles dropping in and out as
required.
So a "train " of vehicles leave the outskirts of London and head
North, those who want to go to a place en route such as Birmingham
break away and go there. Those who want to go to Glasgow carry on
with no stops, range and bladders allowing.
Raise the speed limit a bit to 80 and missing all those 5 min stops at
stations en route a normal and the journey times will become fairly
competitive with the traditional train as we know it where all on
board make no progress for a few minutes while others get on and off.
And that is before you include time getting to and from the Railway
station anyway, where you are in London that is just a few stops on a
tube but for large number of people they have to use another means of
transport to reach a railhead in the first place , and that is another
cost on top of the actual railway fare whether that is paying to park
a car or Taxi/Mini cab fare Interchanging between that and Railway
train is usually about 20 mins unless you want to risk being delayed
on the way and missing a train departure so that needs to be set
against your total door to door time as well so makes doing the whole
journey by driverless car even more favourable.

G.Harman

On 16/03/17 11:44, GB wrote:
On 16/03/2017 11:30, Chris Hogg wrote:

But we're not a million miles apart. The key point is that one can't
just switch over to an all-electric transport system simply by
plugging in ones car into the socket in the garage to charge it
overnight on the assumption that the electricity is always available,
which I'm sure a lot of people imagine will happen. We're on a knife
edge with electrical supplies in winter as it is, and any increase in
consumption without a corresponding increase in supply and
distribution facilities will just not work.


I'm sure that's right. There may be some overall saving in fuel and
hence pollution, as power stations are more thermodynamically efficient
than ICEs. (Actually, I'm just assuming that, so I'll wait to be
engulfed in flames.)


Coal probably not - 36-38% when running baseload with modern
supercritical plant. Gas CCGT up to 60% is possible.
Real goodness of leccy is it doesn't idle, and regenerative braking gets
a lot back.

However, we don't need to build lots of power stations just yet. At
least, not for that reason. At Dec-2016, we had 90,000 electric vehicles
on the road, out of a total of around 37 million licensed vehicles. So,
it's not exactly happening overnight.


--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

On Thursday, 16 March 2017 12:50:31 UTC, wrote:
On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 11:21:02 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:



of course. Which is why - especially given it's glacial timescale - HS2
seems like an absolute waste of money.

Driverless cars will never match the speed of a train between city centres.

Who knows what may happen,

Most that don't have their heads in clouds.

a train at present is a collection of
vehicles physically joined together , could in the future a
collection of vehicles such as driverless cars virtually joined
together be classed as a train with vehicles dropping in and out as
required.

unlikely

So a "train " of vehicles leave the outskirts of London and head
North, those who want to go to a place en route such as Birmingham
break away and go there. Those who want to go to Glasgow carry on
with no stops, range and bladders allowing.

Like a train or coach.

Raise the speed limit

how will seperate section or these cars join each other at say 80+ MPH.


a bit to 80 and missing all those 5 min stops

Then not very useful just get the non stop train.

at
stations en route a normal and the journey times will become fairly
competitive with the traditional train as we know it where all on
board make no progress for a few minutes while others get on and off.

How are you going to diconnect one car from another while one slows down and the other speeds uop.


And that is before you include time getting to and from the Railway
station anyway, where you are in London that is just a few stops on a
tube but for large number of people they have to use another means of
transport to reach a railhead in the first place , and that is another
cost on top of the actual railway fare whether that is paying to park
a car or Taxi/Mini cab fare Interchanging between that and Railway
train is usually about 20 mins unless you want to risk being delayed
on the way and missing a train departure so that needs to be set
against your total door to door time as well so makes doing the whole
journey by driverless car even more favourable.

Thre's just no point in joining such cars together, what hapopens when one goes faulty, what happens when there's 2 people in the same 'car' and both work at differnt places ?

On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 16:56:58 UTC, dennis@home wrote:
On 15/03/2017 16:35, harry wrote:

Most people will slow charge by night at home.


You greens hope they will or the grid falls down.

You charge by night rather than using your solar panels don't you.
Not very green doing that.

Iuse my solar panels in Summer and sunny days in Winter.
Otherwise by night on economy seven.

On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 17:07:10 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 16:35:30 UTC, harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 15:20:07 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 14 March 2017 20:28:28 UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/03/17 19:03, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:32:29 +0000, GB
wrote:

On 14/03/2017 15:35, Chris Hogg wrote:

Anyway, it seems that an electric car with a fully charged 100kWh
battery should be able to do much the same range as a petrol car on a
single tank. Glancing at Tesla, they are claiming about 300 mile range
for their cars with the biggest batteries. That would suit me fine, as 4
hours is my absolute maximum drive.

The point I wanted to make was that in order to charge an electric car
battery in times comparable with filling the tank with petrol, you'd
need an awful lot of amps at an awful lot of volts.


Tesla claims that you can get a 50% charge in 20 minutes at one of their
super-fast chargers. That sounds like around 100kW = 400 amps at 240v,
which seems rather high.

Yes, I agree with those figures. OK if you want to stop at a service
station and pop in for a coffee while you wait, but at busy times
there's often a queue for the normal petrol pumps, and they have a
fairly rapid turnover, so what it would be like with a twenty minute
wait I shudder to think.

Exactly. But you can charge a li-ion battery - if its designed for it -
in about 6 minutes, Gets a bit hot of course.

Which will add to global warming if 1000s are doing it day in day out.
Might be a few cool explosions too.

Most people will slow charge by night at home.

Most people as yet don't have that facility and even them will their CU and cabling be up to it on a large scale. Outside my flat you'll be lucky to find a parking space.

It's only 2.2 Kw.
Plugs into 13a socket.

In article ,
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 11:21:02 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:



of course. Which is why - especially given it's glacial timescale -
HS2 seems like an absolute waste of money.

Driverless cars will never match the speed of a train between city centres.

Who knows what may happen, a train at present is a collection of
vehicles physically joined together

And you can walk from one end to the other with it in motion. To get to
say the bog or buffet car.

, could in the future a
collection of vehicles such as driverless cars virtually joined
together be classed as a train with vehicles dropping in and out as
required.

Ever been on a train where it drops off a few carriages? ;-)

So a "train " of vehicles leave the outskirts of London and head
North, those who want to go to a place en route such as Birmingham
break away and go there. Those who want to go to Glasgow carry on
with no stops, range and bladders allowing.

And all without breaking pace. ;-)

Raise the speed limit a bit to 80 and missing all those 5 min stops at
stations en route a normal and the journey times will become fairly
competitive with the traditional train as we know it where all on
board make no progress for a few minutes while others get on and off.

But an HS train doesn't stop every 5 minutes.

And that is before you include time getting to and from the Railway
station anyway, where you are in London that is just a few stops on a
tube but for large number of people they have to use another means of
transport to reach a railhead in the first place , and that is another
cost on top of the actual railway fare whether that is paying to park
a car or Taxi/Mini cab fare Interchanging between that and Railway
train is usually about 20 mins unless you want to risk being delayed
on the way and missing a train departure so that needs to be set
against your total door to door time as well so makes doing the whole
journey by driverless car even more favourable.

So what does that driverless car do after your journey? Hang around for
the return one - or go back to base empty?

Sadly, many of the disadvantages of taxis apply with or without a driver.

Other thing is those who can't currently drive for whatever reason might
just buy a driverless car. Increasing the numbers on the road.

G.Harman

--
*Remember not to forget that which you do not need to know.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thursday, 16 March 2017 12:09:01 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 18:01:26 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
If you know an electric car takes a given time to re-charge you'd just
allow for that in your journey.

I guess people never fill up on the way to or back from work then. Seems
a bit starnge that peole might not mind an extar 20mins to their commute
journey.

They'd charge the car at work or at home.

Most in london can't even park outside their own home. so were will they plug it into.
As an example my brother visit me in his car on a sunday used to come saturday too in the last 14 months h';es only been able to park outside my home ONCE and even then it's in the street I;n need to find a way of getting the charging cable to the car he usually has to park on the other soide of the road the last two weekend he had difficulty finding a space in the same road.
Not all places of work have parking spaces for everyone usually just executives.


Perhaps you'd not noticed, but mains electricity is pretty readily
available. Unlike petrol.

It;s not easily availible in the street where cars normally park for the majority, and that's when they have houses what about the new builds of flats and as they convert 4 bed houses into 3 or more flats there just isn't the space.



Who'd want to live in that rat hole?
I have two garages and parking for about seven or eight cars on the drive and patio.
Plus work shed and large wood store shed.

On Thursday, 16 March 2017 16:18:53 UTC, harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 17:07:10 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 16:35:30 UTC, harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 15:20:07 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 14 March 2017 20:28:28 UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/03/17 19:03, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:32:29 +0000, GB
wrote:

On 14/03/2017 15:35, Chris Hogg wrote:

Anyway, it seems that an electric car with a fully charged 100kWh
battery should be able to do much the same range as a petrol car on a
single tank. Glancing at Tesla, they are claiming about 300 mile range
for their cars with the biggest batteries. That would suit me fine, as 4
hours is my absolute maximum drive.

The point I wanted to make was that in order to charge an electric car
battery in times comparable with filling the tank with petrol, you'd
need an awful lot of amps at an awful lot of volts.


Tesla claims that you can get a 50% charge in 20 minutes at one of their
super-fast chargers. That sounds like around 100kW = 400 amps at 240v,
which seems rather high.

Yes, I agree with those figures. OK if you want to stop at a service
station and pop in for a coffee while you wait, but at busy times
there's often a queue for the normal petrol pumps, and they have a
fairly rapid turnover, so what it would be like with a twenty minute
wait I shudder to think.

Exactly. But you can charge a li-ion battery - if its designed for it -
in about 6 minutes, Gets a bit hot of course.

Which will add to global warming if 1000s are doing it day in day out.
Might be a few cool explosions too.

Most people will slow charge by night at home.

Most people as yet don't have that facility and even them will their CU and cabling be up to it on a large scale. Outside my flat you'll be lucky to find a parking space.

It's only 2.2 Kw.
Plugs into 13a socket.

I;d still need to run a cable from the front door across the pavement to the car. I don;t think you're allowed to obstruct the pavement with an extention cable all might might be ok for hooving or jump starting the car but doing that all night.
So unless there's a charging socket in the road from my flat to the car means going across the pavement.
Who would pay for the charging point to be installed either on the edge of the pavement or the road.

On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 10:37:29 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 00:22:44 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
Yes, I agree with those figures. OK if you want to stop at a service
station and pop in for a coffee while you wait, but at busy times
there's often a queue for the normal petrol pumps, and they have a
fairly rapid turnover, so what it would be like with a twenty minute
wait I shudder to think.

But you wouldn't need a traditional filling station - underground tanks
etc. The charging points could just be in the ordinary car park.

Indeed you could, and that's probably how it would work. Say fifty
charging points, each with a 1 MW capacity charger for rapid charging,
is quite a lot of power to be supplied.

And that's only for the cars...

True. Has anyone worked out how much extra generating capacity we'd need
if every vehicle was electric?

Well my car has a 16Kwh battery.
The standard charging lead is 2.2Kw

However, no-one runs their battery to depletion.

Mine is usually on for 2-4 hours.

On 16/03/2017 16:23, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

, could in the future a
collection of vehicles such as driverless cars virtually joined
together be classed as a train with vehicles dropping in and out as
required.

Ever been on a train where it drops off a few carriages? ;-)

For a while some trains to Cornwall from London had "slip coaches". The
back one or two would be decoupled while still running, with a spare
guard left with them to brake the coach to a stop at the station.

I think they could do this at a couple of stations.

(googling tells me other lines had them too)

On Thursday, 16 March 2017 11:21:45 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
True. Has anyone worked out how much extra generating capacity we'd
need if every vehicle was electric?

All of this assumes the next 50 years are going to be like the last.

I can't help but feel we're in the last days of the car - certainly as a
solution to private transport.

The end of the car will coincide with the end of the world as we know it.

If anyone has actually thought beyond the press releases, it's obvious
that the *big* (I mean beyond Government spending) money - from Google
et al - is going on the idea of autonomous/driverless cars.

Of course. Business always wants to sell you something new.

The second you have a car which drives itself, you can immediately halve
- maybe quarter - the number of cars needed to move people around. After
all 80% of cars are unused for 80% of the 24 hours in a day.

Given how many thing of their car as part of themselves - not to be lent
or shared in any way - I can't see that.

Couple that with an Uber-style supply/demand network, and in 30 years
time the idea of owning and driving a car (which will have become *very*
expensive) will seem just weird.

Taxis ain't new. All the disadvantages of them still apply - no matter how
cheap and reliable the service is. But Uber only exists because of a big
supply of cheap labour. And those better paid who can afford it.

The ICE car was first available for public use in the 1897. By 1930
every village blacksmith had turned to car repairs. I believe we'll see
the same seismic shift with driverless cars.

But still a car. Cars have been getting easier to drive as time went on.
Driverless simply being an extension of that. But people will still want
their own choice of make and model - even if if capable of driving itself

Of course a true autonomous car will just drive to the nearest power
point, and charge until ready. But there will always be a fleet "on the
road" to handle capacity.

There have been plenty of 'pool' car systems tried. With limited success.
Same as pool bikes. Some do use them - but there seem to be even more
owned ones on the roads than ever.

Such a future does bring into question the entire purpose of railways,
of course. Which is why - especially given it's glacial timescale - HS2
seems like an absolute waste of money.

Driverless cars will never match the speed of a train between city centres.

Driverless cars will never catch on.
People like to drive, especially young ones.
Cars are status symbols too.
Who wants to turn up in a glorified dodgem car?
You think the Queen is gonna turn up in a driverless pool car/taxi?
No, she's gonna have a Roller.
With a chauffeur.

On Thursday, 16 March 2017 16:24:14 UTC, harry wrote:
On Thursday, 16 March 2017 12:09:01 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:

Who'd want to live in that rat hole?
I have two garages and parking for about seven or eight cars on the drive and patio.
Plus work shed and large wood store shed.

lots of people with cars don;t haqve a choice.
Just shows you how far out of touch you are with reality.

On Thursday, 16 March 2017 16:25:45 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 11:21:02 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:



of course. Which is why - especially given it's glacial timescale -
HS2 seems like an absolute waste of money.

Driverless cars will never match the speed of a train between city centres.

Who knows what may happen, a train at present is a collection of
vehicles physically joined together

And you can walk from one end to the other with it in motion. To get to
say the bog or buffet car.

, could in the future a
collection of vehicles such as driverless cars virtually joined
together be classed as a train with vehicles dropping in and out as
required.

Ever been on a train where it drops off a few carriages? ;-)

Yeah takes bloody ages, and it doesnlt happen while traveling along aty 80 MPH either, the train has to stop usualy at a station. Last time I was going from London to worthing.


So a "train " of vehicles leave the outskirts of London and head
North, those who want to go to a place en route such as Birmingham
break away and go there. Those who want to go to Glasgow carry on
with no stops, range and bladders allowing.

And all without breaking pace. ;-)

No stops means it doesn't get much chance to pick up passengers.


Raise the speed limit a bit to 80 and missing all those 5 min stops at
stations en route a normal and the journey times will become fairly
competitive with the traditional train as we know it where all on
board make no progress for a few minutes while others get on and off.

But an HS train doesn't stop every 5 minutes.

Makes one wonder why every train isn't high speed.

Anyway in a 'few' years time we'll have google drones that can turn from a car to a flying drone.


And that is before you include time getting to and from the Railway
station anyway, where you are in London that is just a few stops on a
tube but for large number of people they have to use another means of
transport to reach a railhead in the first place , and that is another
cost on top of the actual railway fare whether that is paying to park
a car or Taxi/Mini cab fare Interchanging between that and Railway
train is usually about 20 mins unless you want to risk being delayed
on the way and missing a train departure so that needs to be set
against your total door to door time as well so makes doing the whole
journey by driverless car even more favourable.

So what does that driverless car do after your journey? Hang around for
the return one - or go back to base empty?

I've wondered about that but in theory it could return to the closest
car pool a bit like how the boris/barclay/sandader bikes work now.


Sadly, many of the disadvantages of taxis apply with or without a driver.

Other thing is those who can't currently drive for whatever reason might
just buy a driverless car. Increasing the numbers on the road.

Yes it'll ad to teh total number of cars but maybe those without cars wont want to spend the amoint requred to buy a driverless car but rent them in the same way I don't need a car I can just phone for a cab. I don't think I've really needed a car so far this year.

On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 16:23:18 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

, could in the future a
collection of vehicles such as driverless cars virtually joined
together be classed as a train with vehicles dropping in and out as
required.

Ever been on a train where it drops off a few carriages? ;-)

No I'm too young.
My Mother remembers going on though and no doubt others of her age
group still do.
Getting in the the wrong section could upset your travel plans .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slip_coach

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NEwrjQtrKo

G.Harman

On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 16:23:18 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:


vehicles physically joined together

And you can walk from one end to the other with it in motion. To get to
say the bog or buffet car.
People vary, I'm fortunate in that I can still go for about 12 hours
if needs be between needing a pee. Not many Buffet Cars left and even
where they exist then fighting along a crowded train and hoping nobody
is going to pinch your seat isn't like it was in the days when trains
were unpopular but meant space for those who did travel.
If I'm in a driver less car then eating on the move from a picnic
basket isn't going to be problem.
A caravannete style vehicle could even have a bog.
If a pee stop or a brief walk to stretch legs is required then drop
off out of the "driverless car train" as suits you and others in the
car. That could be more than offered by a railway train or less and 4
to 6 people will offered more flexibility than the thousand or so on
an intercity train.




And all without breaking pace. ;-)

Raise the speed limit a bit to 80 and missing all those 5 min stops at
stations en route a normal and the journey times will become fairly
competitive with the traditional train as we know it where all on
board make no progress for a few minutes while others get on and off.

But an HS train doesn't stop every 5 minutes.
Even four stops between London and Glasgow is 20 mins stationary
,meanwhile the car will have done over 20 miles though I accept not
every one is like me and most will stop for a on a journey that long,
when we did it regularly my mates used to jest that if I could refuel
without stopping like an aircraft I would have done so.

And that is before you include time getting to and from the Railway
station anyway, where you are in London that is just a few stops on a
tube but for large number of people they have to use another means of
transport to reach a railhead in the first place

So what does that driverless car do after your journey? Hang around for
the return one - or go back to base empty?
I was more thinking of a personally owned one and I would use it to
travel around the area had gone to in the following days and then
returning without the requirements to stick to a pre booked seat
allocation on a train or pay a high price for a walk on fare.



Sadly, many of the disadvantages of taxis apply with or without a driver.
At the end of the day like the railway train they are public transport
but posher than buses.

Other thing is those who can't currently drive for whatever reason might
just buy a driverless car. Increasing the numbers on the road.

I don't think we can really predict what may happen, I live in a
different situation to you in London with its well established public
transport, here any one no longer capable of driving either has to
move or depend on friends, relatives or socially subsidised taxis to
get to the doctors etc. At least much shopping can now be delivered
again compared with 10 years ago.

Older people tend to know a circle of similar friends and I can could
easily see a group owning a driverless car amongst themselves so that
would reduce the little convoy of Aygos, Micras etc that travel from
the village each day to the towns nearby and as a bonus those no
longer capable of driving won't have empty Taxis coming out to fetch
them and returning back empty afterwards.

G.Harman

On 16/03/2017 12:33, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 16 March 2017 12:14:58 UTC, GB wrote:
On 16/03/2017 12:08, whisky-dave wrote:

Most in london can't even park outside their own home. so were will they plug it into.
As an example my brother visit me in his car on a sunday used to come saturday too in the last 14 months h';es only been able to park outside my home ONCE and even then it's in the street I;n need to find a way of getting the charging cable to the car he usually has to park on the other soide of the road the last two weekend he had difficulty finding a space in the same road.
Not all places of work have parking spaces for everyone usually just executives.


Pavement charging point.

https://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/con...harging-points

were can buy a 2 mile extention lead ;-)


There are only 90,000 electric cars at the moment. You can't expect a
charging point outside every house.

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 16:29:40 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 10:59:17 UTC, GB wrote:
On 15/03/2017 10:34, charles wrote:


You'd have a car park full of charging points.

Poeple have enough difficulty finding parking spaces as it is.

Not usually at a motorway service station, which was mentioned as
usually having queues at the filling station.

Is that where most people fill up at motorway service stations ?

only if they've miscalculated - fuel usually costs at least 5p more per

5p! a bargain

round 'ere it's nearer 15p

tim

"GB" wrote in message
news
On 16/03/2017 12:08, whisky-dave wrote:

Most in london can't even park outside their own home. so were will they
plug it into.
As an example my brother visit me in his car on a sunday used to come
saturday too in the last 14 months h';es only been able to park outside
my home ONCE and even then it's in the street I;n need to find a way of
getting the charging cable to the car he usually has to park on the other
soide of the road the last two weekend he had difficulty finding a space
in the same road.
Not all places of work have parking spaces for everyone usually just
executives.


Pavement charging point.

but that will have to be commercially run - and charged for

the associated costs kindof make the attraction of an electric car somewhat
financially unattractive again

tim

"GB" wrote in message
news
On 16/03/2017 12:33, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 16 March 2017 12:14:58 UTC, GB wrote:
On 16/03/2017 12:08, whisky-dave wrote:

Most in london can't even park outside their own home. so were will
they plug it into.
As an example my brother visit me in his car on a sunday used to come
saturday too in the last 14 months h';es only been able to park outside
my home ONCE and even then it's in the street I;n need to find a way of
getting the charging cable to the car he usually has to park on the
other soide of the road the last two weekend he had difficulty finding
a space in the same road.
Not all places of work have parking spaces for everyone usually just
executives.


Pavement charging point.

https://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/con...harging-points

were can buy a 2 mile extention lead ;-)


There are only 90,000 electric cars at the moment. You can't expect a
charging point outside every house.

but when they are 10 million?

tim

In article ,
wrote:
Ever been on a train where it drops off a few carriages? ;-)

No I'm too young.

Still quite common round here.

--
*Isn't it a bit unnerving that doctors call what they do "practice?"

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 16/03/2017 18:46, tim... wrote:


"GB" wrote in message
news
On 16/03/2017 12:33, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 16 March 2017 12:14:58 UTC, GB wrote:
On 16/03/2017 12:08, whisky-dave wrote:

Most in london can't even park outside their own home. so were will
they plug it into.
As an example my brother visit me in his car on a sunday used to
come saturday too in the last 14 months h';es only been able to
park outside my home ONCE and even then it's in the street I;n need
to find a way of getting the charging cable to the car he usually
has to park on the other soide of the road the last two weekend he
had difficulty finding a space in the same road.
Not all places of work have parking spaces for everyone usually
just executives.


Pavement charging point.

https://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/con...harging-points


were can buy a 2 mile extention lead ;-)


There are only 90,000 electric cars at the moment. You can't expect a
charging point outside every house.

but when they are 10 million?

There'll be lots of charging points. That's a pre-requisite for 10m
people to buy the cars. Obviously, people won't buy them unless they can
charge them.





tim

On 16/03/2017 18:26, tim... wrote:


"GB" wrote in message
news
On 16/03/2017 12:08, whisky-dave wrote:

Most in london can't even park outside their own home. so were will
they plug it into.
As an example my brother visit me in his car on a sunday used to come
saturday too in the last 14 months h';es only been able to park
outside my home ONCE and even then it's in the street I;n need to
find a way of getting the charging cable to the car he usually has to
park on the other soide of the road the last two weekend he had
difficulty finding a space in the same road.
Not all places of work have parking spaces for everyone usually just
executives.


Pavement charging point.

but that will have to be commercially run - and charged for

the associated costs kindof make the attraction of an electric car
somewhat financially unattractive again

I have no idea how much these will cost of there are millions of them.



tim

On 16/03/2017 19:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
Ever been on a train where it drops off a few carriages? ;-)

No I'm too young.

Still quite common round here.

That's splitting train, not yer actual slip coach.

On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 19:10:16 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
Ever been on a train where it drops off a few carriages? ;-)

No I'm too young.

Still quite common round here.

Depends on what terminology you mean by drop off,
lots of trains are divided after the entire train has come to a full
stop which means the total passenger compliment has to wait till the
sections start to progress to their destinations or often part to a
depot.
As the link I provided mentions the last UK drop off from a train
where the main portion carried on its way without stopping so the
passengers in that section were not delayed by the many having to wait
for a few took place in 1960. It is that style of operation I could
see a "Train" of driverless cars mimicking as they progress on their
virtual "tracks" of a motorway. It might happen to an extent already
as adaptive cruise control and lane keeping assist becomes more
popular,
there must be some occasions where a half a dozen or so of such cars
fitted with these devices have already followed each other for some
miles till one turned off or another one joined in.
That can only increase as more vehicles get equipped with it.

G.Harman

On 16 Mar 2017 19:41:33 GMT, Huge wrote:


see a "Train" of driverless cars mimicking as they progress on their
virtual "tracks" of a motorway.

I believe the industry term is "platoon".

Ta, I was trying to remember what the term was, convoy did not sound
right but gave me an earworm of that dammed CB record.
Now it's the flaming Dads Army theme.
G.Harman

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
Ever been on a train where it drops off a few carriages? ;-)

No I'm too young.

Still quite common round here.

Don't know where that is, but it used to be common on Southern Region.
And they still do it on the Cambrian line. But it involves a stop and a
10 minute delay for one half.


--

Roger Hayter

tim... wrote:


"GB" wrote in message
news
On 16/03/2017 12:33, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 16 March 2017 12:14:58 UTC, GB wrote:
On 16/03/2017 12:08, whisky-dave wrote:

Most in london can't even park outside their own home. so were will
they plug it into.
As an example my brother visit me in his car on a sunday used to
come saturday too in the last 14 months h';es only been able to
park outside my home ONCE and even then it's in the street I;n need
to find a way of getting the charging cable to the car he usually
has to park on the other soide of the road the last two weekend he
had difficulty finding a space in the same road.
Not all places of work have parking spaces for everyone usually
just executives.


Pavement charging point.

https://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/con...harging-points


were can buy a 2 mile extention lead ;-)


There are only 90,000 electric cars at the moment. You can't expect a
charging point outside every house.

but when they are 10 million?

tim




How many GW of nuclear will we need?

On 16/03/17 22:39, Capitol wrote:
tim... wrote:


"GB" wrote in message
news
On 16/03/2017 12:33, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 16 March 2017 12:14:58 UTC, GB wrote:
On 16/03/2017 12:08, whisky-dave wrote:

Most in london can't even park outside their own home. so were will
they plug it into.
As an example my brother visit me in his car on a sunday used to
come saturday too in the last 14 months h';es only been able to
park outside my home ONCE and even then it's in the street I;n need
to find a way of getting the charging cable to the car he usually
has to park on the other soide of the road the last two weekend he
had difficulty finding a space in the same road.
Not all places of work have parking spaces for everyone usually
just executives.


Pavement charging point.

https://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/con...harging-points



were can buy a 2 mile extention lead ;-)


There are only 90,000 electric cars at the moment. You can't expect a
charging point outside every house.

but when they are 10 million?

tim




How many GW of nuclear will we need?

Up to 300GW foir a totally fossil free nation.

More likely 150-200GW is

- we stop immigration and population rise.
- we get good at energy efficiency.

--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 11:21:02 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

====snip====


Driverless cars will never match the speed of a train between city
centres.

Nor can they match the efficiency per ton/mile's worth of freight and
passenger transport energy costs of an electrified railway (probably not
even in the case of diesel traction based rail transport).

--
Johnny B Good

In article ,
Clive George wrote:
On 16/03/2017 19:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
Ever been on a train where it drops off a few carriages? ;-)

No I'm too young.

Still quite common round here.

That's splitting train, not yer actual slip coach.

Still takes time. Even with the conductor helping out. Something those
wanting driver only trains like to ignore.

--
*Pride is what we have. Vanity is what others have.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Roger Hayter
wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
Ever been on a train where it drops off a few carriages? ;-)

No I'm too young.

Still quite common round here.

Don't know where that is, but it used to be common on Southern Region.
And they still do it on the Cambrian line. But it involves a stop and a
10 minute delay for one half.

That's not "dropping off a few carriages". The St Panc - Ashford HS
service routinely splits at Ashford, half goes on to Dover and half to
Margate. Trains from Kings X to Cambridge often picked up the other
half that had come down from King's Lynn and then back to Kings X.

But that's not what's being talked about.

Hmmm, I could just see the train splitting at Ashford *without*
stopping - but they'd have to be bloody nippy switching the points.
Then the second train would need a driver - perhaps pick him up on the
fly too, like they used to do with mail on the expresses.

Not quite sure how slipping off a couple of coaches could work in practice?

Fine on a very lightly used service - but how are they moved out of the
way? And how are they retrieved? You could hardly slip them back on to a
fast moving train. Would seem to date from the days of steam, rather than
present day local services with usually more than one driven car.

--
Is the hardness of the butter proportional to the softness of the bread?*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 17/03/2017 00:38, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Not quite sure how slipping off a couple of coaches could work in practice?

Fine on a very lightly used service - but how are they moved out of the
way? And how are they retrieved? You could hardly slip them back on to a
fast moving train. Would seem to date from the days of steam, rather than
present day local services with usually more than one driven car.

Yes, it's an old thing, last done in 1960.

A local shunter picked them up to get them out of the way.

One of the problems was indeed that you can't reverse the operation - so
it was good and fast for people leaving London, but the return journey
had to stop to pick people up. (and possibly coaches).

On Thursday, 16 March 2017 17:33:17 UTC, wrote:
On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 16:23:18 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:


vehicles physically joined together

And you can walk from one end to the other with it in motion. To get to
say the bog or buffet car.
People vary, I'm fortunate in that I can still go for about 12 hours
if needs be between needing a pee. Not many Buffet Cars left and even
where they exist then fighting along a crowded train and hoping nobody
is going to pinch your seat isn't like it was in the days when trains
were unpopular but meant space for those who did travel.
If I'm in a driver less car then eating on the move from a picnic
basket isn't going to be problem.
A caravannete style vehicle could even have a bog.
If a pee stop or a brief walk to stretch legs is required then drop
off out of the "driverless car train" as suits you and others in the
car. That could be more than offered by a railway train or less and 4
to 6 people will offered more flexibility than the thousand or so on
an intercity train.




And all without breaking pace. ;-)

Raise the speed limit a bit to 80 and missing all those 5 min stops at
stations en route a normal and the journey times will become fairly
competitive with the traditional train as we know it where all on
board make no progress for a few minutes while others get on and off.

But an HS train doesn't stop every 5 minutes.
Even four stops between London and Glasgow is 20 mins stationary
,meanwhile the car will have done over 20 miles though I accept not
every one is like me and most will stop for a on a journey that long,
when we did it regularly my mates used to jest that if I could refuel
without stopping like an aircraft I would have done so.

And that is before you include time getting to and from the Railway
station anyway, where you are in London that is just a few stops on a
tube but for large number of people they have to use another means of
transport to reach a railhead in the first place

So what does that driverless car do after your journey? Hang around for
the return one - or go back to base empty?
I was more thinking of a personally owned one and I would use it to
travel around the area had gone to in the following days and then
returning without the requirements to stick to a pre booked seat
allocation on a train or pay a high price for a walk on fare.



Sadly, many of the disadvantages of taxis apply with or without a driver.
At the end of the day like the railway train they are public transport
but posher than buses.

Other thing is those who can't currently drive for whatever reason might
just buy a driverless car. Increasing the numbers on the road.

I don't think we can really predict what may happen, I live in a
different situation to you in London with its well established public
transport, here any one no longer capable of driving either has to
move or depend on friends, relatives or socially subsidised taxis to
get to the doctors etc. At least much shopping can now be delivered
again compared with 10 years ago.

Older people tend to know a circle of similar friends and I can could
easily see a group owning a driverless car amongst themselves so that
would reduce the little convoy of Aygos, Micras etc that travel from
the village each day to the towns nearby and as a bonus those no
longer capable of driving won't have empty Taxis coming out to fetch
them and returning back empty afterwards.

We already have car clubs a couple of miles from where I live.
Ok for the chavs I suppose.

http://malvernhills-carclubs.weebly.com/

Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Clive George wrote:
On 16/03/2017 19:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
Ever been on a train where it drops off a few carriages? ;-)

No I'm too young.

Still quite common round here.

That's splitting train, not yer actual slip coach.

Still takes time. Even with the conductor helping out. Something those
wanting driver only trains like to ignore.

That's what the platform staff are for.

Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Clive George wrote:
On 16/03/2017 19:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
Ever been on a train where it drops off a few carriages? ;-)

No I'm too young.

Still quite common round here.

That's splitting train, not yer actual slip coach.

Still takes time. Even with the conductor helping out. Something those
wanting driver only trains like to ignore.

That's what the platform staff are for.


Isn't that an oxymoron?

In article ,
Clive George wrote:
On 17/03/2017 00:38, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Not quite sure how slipping off a couple of coaches could work in
practice?

Fine on a very lightly used service - but how are they moved out of
the way? And how are they retrieved? You could hardly slip them back
on to a fast moving train. Would seem to date from the days of steam,
rather than present day local services with usually more than one
driven car.

Yes, it's an old thing, last done in 1960.

Ah - right. My local service is Southern which has been electric for all
the time I've lived in London, and has always split trains on some routes.

A local shunter picked them up to get them out of the way.

Makes sense.

One of the problems was indeed that you can't reverse the operation - so
it was good and fast for people leaving London, but the return journey
had to stop to pick people up. (and possibly coaches).

Indeed.

--
*You're never too old to learn something stupid.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Clive George wrote:
On 16/03/2017 19:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
Ever been on a train where it drops off a few carriages? ;-)

No I'm too young.

Still quite common round here.

That's splitting train, not yer actual slip coach.

Still takes time. Even with the conductor helping out. Something those
wanting driver only trains like to ignore.

That's what the platform staff are for.

What platform staff? And would it make more sense to have someone kicking
their heels on a quiet station platform just for the purpose of helping
out when a train splits? Rather than having a guard on the train who can
also check tickets, etc?

--
*Marriage changes passion - suddenly you're in bed with a relative*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:

Hmmm, I could just see the train splitting at Ashford *without*
stopping - but they'd have to be bloody nippy switching the points.
Then the second train would need a driver - perhaps pick him up on the
fly too, like they used to do with mail on the expresses.

Not quite sure how slipping off a couple of coaches could work in
practice?

Fine on a very lightly used service - but how are they moved out of the
way? And how are they retrieved? You could hardly slip them back on to
a fast moving train. Would seem to date from the days of steam, rather
than present day local services with usually more than one driven car.

whoosh

No need to tell the world when you've farted, Timmy.

--
*Men are from Earth, women are from Earth. Deal with it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"GB" wrote in message
news
On 16/03/2017 18:46, tim... wrote:


"GB" wrote in message
news
On 16/03/2017 12:33, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 16 March 2017 12:14:58 UTC, GB wrote:
On 16/03/2017 12:08, whisky-dave wrote:

Most in london can't even park outside their own home. so were will
they plug it into.
As an example my brother visit me in his car on a sunday used to
come saturday too in the last 14 months h';es only been able to
park outside my home ONCE and even then it's in the street I;n need
to find a way of getting the charging cable to the car he usually
has to park on the other soide of the road the last two weekend he
had difficulty finding a space in the same road.
Not all places of work have parking spaces for everyone usually
just executives.


Pavement charging point.

https://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/con...harging-points


were can buy a 2 mile extention lead ;-)


There are only 90,000 electric cars at the moment. You can't expect a
charging point outside every house.

but when they are 10 million?

There'll be lots of charging points. That's a pre-requisite for 10m people
to buy the cars. Obviously, people won't buy them unless they can charge
them.

except the point is that TPTB aren't considering this a problem

there is nothing in planning regulations to make sure all new properties
electric car "friendly" and the current trend for as many houses as possible
per acre contrives to make them less electric car friendly without even
trying.

tim

On Thursday, 16 March 2017 16:55:11 UTC, wrote:
On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 16:23:18 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

, could in the future a
collection of vehicles such as driverless cars virtually joined
together be classed as a train with vehicles dropping in and out as
required.

Ever been on a train where it drops off a few carriages? ;-)

No I'm too young.

Really this happened to a friend less than a month ago.
On his way back to worhtin gthe train split carriages he forgot that some of his luggege was in the next carriage by the time he realsed the train had split and gone it;s sperate ways.

My Mother remembers going on though and no doubt others of her age
group still do.
Getting in the the wrong section could upset your travel plans .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slip_coach

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NEwrjQtrKo

G.Harman