New battery tech?
 

On 14/03/2017 11:47, jim wrote:
Chris Hogg Wrote in message:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 09:53:27 -0000 (UTC), Tim+
wrote:

Would be nice if some of this turned out to be true.
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/...the-end-of-oil

Tim

Interesting. I see they're claiming the battery will charge in minutes
rather than hours.

Say a typical car petrol tank holds 12 gallons. 1 gallon of petrol has
an energy equivalent of 33.4kWh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoli...lon_equivalent

So a typical car petrol tank contains an energy equivalent of about
400kWh. If that were to be replaced by a battery storage system, which
was wanted to be recharged in say 5 minutes (one twelfth of an hour),
as is done now with a petrol filling system, that would require a
power input of 4800kW (400x12). At 1000 amps that would be 4800 volts
(assuming my logic and numbers are correct, which they may not be!).

I'd be interested to see the forecourt of the future!

But I imagine things would no longer be done that way. If those
batteries are truly reliable, then an exchange system would probably
be the way things would go.

Or you'd charge it at home overnight?

What are the relative efficiencies of petrol vs electric powerplants?

Petrol is around 25%-30% vs nearly 100% for electric.

New battery tech?
 

Chris Hogg Wrote in message:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 09:53:27 -0000 (UTC), Tim+
wrote:

Would be nice if some of this turned out to be true.
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/...the-end-of-oil

Tim

Interesting. I see they're claiming the battery will charge in minutes
rather than hours.

Say a typical car petrol tank holds 12 gallons. 1 gallon of petrol has
an energy equivalent of 33.4kWh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoli...lon_equivalent

So a typical car petrol tank contains an energy equivalent of about
400kWh. If that were to be replaced by a battery storage system, which
was wanted to be recharged in say 5 minutes (one twelfth of an hour),
as is done now with a petrol filling system, that would require a
power input of 4800kW (400x12). At 1000 amps that would be 4800 volts
(assuming my logic and numbers are correct, which they may not be!).

I'd be interested to see the forecourt of the future!

But I imagine things would no longer be done that way. If those
batteries are truly reliable, then an exchange system would probably
be the way things would go.

Or you'd charge it at home overnight?

What are the relative efficiencies of petrol vs electric powerplants?

--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

New battery tech?
 

On 14/03/2017 12:07, Chris Hogg wrote:

Car petrol engines around about 20% max, a bit more for diesel.
Probably triple that for electric cars, so by implication only half
the equivalent tank capacity needed. But that still leaves some pretty
hefty amps/volts needed for charging.
See https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml for some numbers.



Surely, triple = one-third capacity needed?

If you add in that electric cars tend to have regenerative braking and
so on, it gets better still.

One way petrol engines score is that they use waste heat for warming the
passengers.

New battery tech?
 

In article ,
GB wrote:
What are the relative efficiencies of petrol vs electric powerplants?

Petrol is around 25%-30% vs nearly 100% for electric.

And of course doesn't have to idle in traffic jams or use energy to be
restarted. And won't use vastly more fuel when warming up.

Be interesting to know a ballpark figure for the real world differences in
energy storage needed.

--
*Why is the word abbreviation so long? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

New battery tech?
 

On 14/03/2017 13:42, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 12:27:17 +0000, GB
wrote:

On 14/03/2017 12:07, Chris Hogg wrote:

Car petrol engines around about 20% max, a bit more for diesel.
Probably triple that for electric cars, so by implication only half
the equivalent tank capacity needed. But that still leaves some pretty
hefty amps/volts needed for charging.
See https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml for some numbers.



Surely, triple = one-third capacity needed?

Yes, absolutely correct. The initial figures I found suggested a
factor of two difference, but later I found the factor of three, but I
omitted to correct that bit.


Sorry to be pedantic. :)

Anyway, it seems that an electric car with a fully charged 100kWh
battery should be able to do much the same range as a petrol car on a
single tank. Glancing at Tesla, they are claiming about 300 mile range
for their cars with the biggest batteries. That would suit me fine, as 4
hours is my absolute maximum drive.

New battery tech?
 

"GB" wrote in message
...
On 14/03/2017 13:42, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 12:27:17 +0000, GB
wrote:

On 14/03/2017 12:07, Chris Hogg wrote:

Car petrol engines around about 20% max, a bit more for diesel.
Probably triple that for electric cars, so by implication only half
the equivalent tank capacity needed. But that still leaves some pretty
hefty amps/volts needed for charging.
See https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml for some numbers.



Surely, triple = one-third capacity needed?

Yes, absolutely correct. The initial figures I found suggested a
factor of two difference, but later I found the factor of three, but I
omitted to correct that bit.


Sorry to be pedantic. :)

Anyway, it seems that an electric car with a fully charged 100kWh battery
should be able to do much the same range as a petrol car on a single tank.
Glancing at Tesla, they are claiming about 300 mile range for their cars
with the biggest batteries. That would suit me fine, as 4 hours is my
absolute maximum drive.

it's not that simple though, is it

if you were visiting me for the weekend there is nowhere you could recharge
your car when you arrive

so your battery has to be good for the round trip

(FTAOD I live on on of these "modern" estates where nobody has a drive and
everyone parks on the road. And I live on the second floor so running a
cable out of the window isn't practical either)

tim

New battery tech?
 

In article ,
GB wrote:
Yes, absolutely correct. The initial figures I found suggested a
factor of two difference, but later I found the factor of three, but I
omitted to correct that bit.


Sorry to be pedantic. :)

Anyway, it seems that an electric car with a fully charged 100kWh
battery should be able to do much the same range as a petrol car on a
single tank. Glancing at Tesla, they are claiming about 300 mile range
for their cars with the biggest batteries. That would suit me fine, as 4
hours is my absolute maximum drive.

Think you have to be even more careful with the claimed range of an
electric car than you do with a maker's petrol MPG figures. ;-)

--
*When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

New battery tech?
 

In article ,
tim... wrote:
Anyway, it seems that an electric car with a fully charged 100kWh
battery should be able to do much the same range as a petrol car on a
single tank. Glancing at Tesla, they are claiming about 300 mile
range for their cars with the biggest batteries. That would suit me
fine, as 4 hours is my absolute maximum drive.

it's not that simple though, is it

if you were visiting me for the weekend there is nowhere you could
recharge your car when you arrive

so your battery has to be good for the round trip

Plenty live many miles from a filling station too.

--
*It sounds like English, but I can't understand a word you're saying.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

New battery tech?
 

In message , Chris Hogg
writes
Car petrol engines around about 20% max, a bit more for diesel.
Probably triple that for electric cars, so by implication only half the
equivalent tank capacity needed. But that still leaves some pretty
hefty amps/volts needed for charging. See
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml for some numbers.

Did anyone else hear the piece on Radio 4 a few days ago about UPS in
Birmingham?

Apparently they have converted 6 or 7 of their delivery vehicles to
electric power and have been very happy with the results.

But they can't convert any more because 6 or 7 is all they can charge
overnight. That uses the total supply available to their industrial
site.
--
Bill

New battery tech?
 

On 14/03/2017 15:35, Chris Hogg wrote:

Anyway, it seems that an electric car with a fully charged 100kWh
battery should be able to do much the same range as a petrol car on a
single tank. Glancing at Tesla, they are claiming about 300 mile range
for their cars with the biggest batteries. That would suit me fine, as 4
hours is my absolute maximum drive.

The point I wanted to make was that in order to charge an electric car
battery in times comparable with filling the tank with petrol, you'd
need an awful lot of amps at an awful lot of volts.


Tesla claims that you can get a 50% charge in 20 minutes at one of their
super-fast chargers. That sounds like around 100kW = 400 amps at 240v,
which seems rather high.

New battery tech?
 

On 14/03/17 15:35, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 14:18:57 +0000, GB
wrote:

On 14/03/2017 13:42, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 12:27:17 +0000, GB
wrote:

On 14/03/2017 12:07, Chris Hogg wrote:

Car petrol engines around about 20% max, a bit more for diesel.
Probably triple that for electric cars, so by implication only half
the equivalent tank capacity needed. But that still leaves some pretty
hefty amps/volts needed for charging.
See https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml for some numbers.



Surely, triple = one-third capacity needed?

Yes, absolutely correct. The initial figures I found suggested a
factor of two difference, but later I found the factor of three, but I
omitted to correct that bit.


Sorry to be pedantic. :)

Not a problem. Happy to be corrected.

Anyway, it seems that an electric car with a fully charged 100kWh
battery should be able to do much the same range as a petrol car on a
single tank. Glancing at Tesla, they are claiming about 300 mile range
for their cars with the biggest batteries. That would suit me fine, as 4
hours is my absolute maximum drive.

The point I wanted to make was that in order to charge an electric car
battery in times comparable with filling the tank with petrol, you'd
need an awful lot of amps at an awful lot of volts.

well one or the other. to charge a 100kWh battery in six minutes is a
MW...Sort of what a small train takes pulling out of Waterloo.


But motorway service stations with substations of their own cope with that.

4000A at 250V. DC.

Probably feed in 11KV instead. only 90A then..


--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

New battery tech?
 

On 14/03/17 19:03, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:32:29 +0000, GB
wrote:

On 14/03/2017 15:35, Chris Hogg wrote:

Anyway, it seems that an electric car with a fully charged 100kWh
battery should be able to do much the same range as a petrol car on a
single tank. Glancing at Tesla, they are claiming about 300 mile range
for their cars with the biggest batteries. That would suit me fine, as 4
hours is my absolute maximum drive.

The point I wanted to make was that in order to charge an electric car
battery in times comparable with filling the tank with petrol, you'd
need an awful lot of amps at an awful lot of volts.


Tesla claims that you can get a 50% charge in 20 minutes at one of their
super-fast chargers. That sounds like around 100kW = 400 amps at 240v,
which seems rather high.

Yes, I agree with those figures. OK if you want to stop at a service
station and pop in for a coffee while you wait, but at busy times
there's often a queue for the normal petrol pumps, and they have a
fairly rapid turnover, so what it would be like with a twenty minute
wait I shudder to think.

Exactly. But you can charge a li-ion battery - if its designed for it -
in about 6 minutes, Gets a bit hot of course.


--
"Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
let them."

New battery tech?
 

In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
Yes, I agree with those figures. OK if you want to stop at a service
station and pop in for a coffee while you wait, but at busy times
there's often a queue for the normal petrol pumps, and they have a
fairly rapid turnover, so what it would be like with a twenty minute
wait I shudder to think.

But you wouldn't need a traditional filling station - underground tanks
etc. The charging points could just be in the ordinary car park.

--
*If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

New battery tech?
 

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 14/03/17 15:35, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 14:18:57 +0000, GB
wrote:

On 14/03/2017 13:42, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 12:27:17 +0000, GB
wrote:

On 14/03/2017 12:07, Chris Hogg wrote:

Car petrol engines around about 20% max, a bit more for diesel.
Probably triple that for electric cars, so by implication only half
the equivalent tank capacity needed. But that still leaves some pretty
hefty amps/volts needed for charging.
See https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/evtech.shtml for some numbers.



Surely, triple = one-third capacity needed?

Yes, absolutely correct. The initial figures I found suggested a
factor of two difference, but later I found the factor of three, but I
omitted to correct that bit.


Sorry to be pedantic. :)

Not a problem. Happy to be corrected.

Anyway, it seems that an electric car with a fully charged 100kWh
battery should be able to do much the same range as a petrol car on a
single tank. Glancing at Tesla, they are claiming about 300 mile range
for their cars with the biggest batteries. That would suit me fine, as 4
hours is my absolute maximum drive.

The point I wanted to make was that in order to charge an electric car
battery in times comparable with filling the tank with petrol, you'd
need an awful lot of amps at an awful lot of volts.

well one or the other. to charge a 100kWh battery in six minutes is a
MW...Sort of what a small train takes pulling out of Waterloo.


But motorway service stations with substations of their own cope with that.

4000A at 250V. DC.

Probably feed in 11KV instead. only 90A then..

I suspect something in the 1.5 to 2.5kV range would be easier to handle
with standard precautions and no excessive distortion of the car to
provide sufficient spacing.



--

Roger Hayter

New battery tech?
 

On 15/03/2017 08:07, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 00:22:44 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
Yes, I agree with those figures. OK if you want to stop at a service
station and pop in for a coffee while you wait, but at busy times
there's often a queue for the normal petrol pumps, and they have a
fairly rapid turnover, so what it would be like with a twenty minute
wait I shudder to think.

But you wouldn't need a traditional filling station - underground tanks
etc. The charging points could just be in the ordinary car park.

Indeed you could, and that's probably how it would work. Say fifty
charging points, each with a 1 MW capacity charger for rapid charging,
is quite a lot of power to be supplied.

And that's only for the cars...


50 x 100kW would be 5MW in total. They might need more charging stations
if electric cars really catch on. But say 20MW range should do it for
the foreseeable future for a very large motorway service station.

To put that in perspective, an ordinary suburban street (100 houses) has
a combined mains input of 2-3MW. If my arithmetic is right! So, 50
charging stations in constant use would need the same input mains as a
couple of longish suburban streets.

More likely, they could have more charging stations than 50 served by a
5MW mains input, as they wouldn't all be charging at the same time.

New battery tech?
 

In article ,
GB wrote:
On 15/03/2017 08:07, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 00:22:44 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
Yes, I agree with those figures. OK if you want to stop at a service
station and pop in for a coffee while you wait, but at busy times
there's often a queue for the normal petrol pumps, and they have a
fairly rapid turnover, so what it would be like with a twenty minute
wait I shudder to think.

But you wouldn't need a traditional filling station - underground tanks
etc. The charging points could just be in the ordinary car park.

Indeed you could, and that's probably how it would work. Say fifty
charging points, each with a 1 MW capacity charger for rapid charging,
is quite a lot of power to be supplied.

And that's only for the cars...


50 x 100kW would be 5MW in total. They might need more charging stations
if electric cars really catch on. But say 20MW range should do it for
the foreseeable future for a very large motorway service station.

To put that in perspective, an ordinary suburban street (100 houses) has
a combined mains input of 2-3MW. If my arithmetic is right! So, 50
charging stations in constant use would need the same input mains as a
couple of longish suburban streets.

More likely, they could have more charging stations than 50 served by a
5MW mains input, as they wouldn't all be charging at the same time.

Why have more chrging stations than you have power for? That would simply
confuse then poor motorist who sees an empty charging station, plugs in and
gets a message "no power available at the moment"

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

New battery tech?
 

In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 00:22:44 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
Yes, I agree with those figures. OK if you want to stop at a service
station and pop in for a coffee while you wait, but at busy times
there's often a queue for the normal petrol pumps, and they have a
fairly rapid turnover, so what it would be like with a twenty minute
wait I shudder to think.

But you wouldn't need a traditional filling station - underground tanks
etc. The charging points could just be in the ordinary car park.

Indeed you could, and that's probably how it would work. Say fifty
charging points, each with a 1 MW capacity charger for rapid charging,
is quite a lot of power to be supplied.

And that's only for the cars...

True. Has anyone worked out how much extra generating capacity we'd need
if every vehicle was electric?

--
*A backward poet writes inverse.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

New battery tech?
 

On 15/03/2017 10:35, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

True. Has anyone worked out how much extra generating capacity we'd need
if every vehicle was electric?

Easily done!

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...o-dec-2016.pdf

This says 320 billion vehicle miles driven last year.

So, say 0.9 billion per day.

An electric car will (purportedly) do 300 miles on 100 kWh. (Forget
trucks for now. This is just to get an idea.)

So: 300 Million kWh needed every 24 hours. Which is 12 GW.


Average UK electricity consumption is 34 GW, so at first sight we would
need a lot more power generation. However, a lot of the charging would
be done at times of low demand within the existing capacity.

New battery tech?
 

On 15/03/2017 10:34, charles wrote:
In article ,
GB wrote:
On 15/03/2017 08:07, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 00:22:44 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
Yes, I agree with those figures. OK if you want to stop at a service
station and pop in for a coffee while you wait, but at busy times
there's often a queue for the normal petrol pumps, and they have a
fairly rapid turnover, so what it would be like with a twenty minute
wait I shudder to think.

But you wouldn't need a traditional filling station - underground tanks
etc. The charging points could just be in the ordinary car park.

Indeed you could, and that's probably how it would work. Say fifty
charging points, each with a 1 MW capacity charger for rapid charging,
is quite a lot of power to be supplied.

And that's only for the cars...


50 x 100kW would be 5MW in total. They might need more charging stations
if electric cars really catch on. But say 20MW range should do it for
the foreseeable future for a very large motorway service station.

To put that in perspective, an ordinary suburban street (100 houses) has
a combined mains input of 2-3MW. If my arithmetic is right! So, 50
charging stations in constant use would need the same input mains as a
couple of longish suburban streets.

More likely, they could have more charging stations than 50 served by a
5MW mains input, as they wouldn't all be charging at the same time.

Why have more chrging stations than you have power for? That would simply
confuse then poor motorist who sees an empty charging station, plugs in and
gets a message "no power available at the moment"


You'd have a car park full of charging points. People would plug in and
their car would charge for 20 minutes. So, they'd go for a 20 minute
coffee. Which might turn into lunch, lasting 40 minutes ....

New battery tech?
 

On 15/03/2017 11:54, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 10:35:03 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 00:22:44 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
Yes, I agree with those figures. OK if you want to stop at a service
station and pop in for a coffee while you wait, but at busy times
there's often a queue for the normal petrol pumps, and they have a
fairly rapid turnover, so what it would be like with a twenty minute
wait I shudder to think.

But you wouldn't need a traditional filling station - underground tanks
etc. The charging points could just be in the ordinary car park.

Indeed you could, and that's probably how it would work. Say fifty
charging points, each with a 1 MW capacity charger for rapid charging,
is quite a lot of power to be supplied.

And that's only for the cars...

True. Has anyone worked out how much extra generating capacity we'd need
if every vehicle was electric?

Yes, somewhere between two and three times what we have at the moment.
You'd never get anywhere near enough extra power without extensive use
of nukes.


How do you work that out? My figure is 12GW, largely to be provided
off-peak.

New battery tech?
 

On Tuesday, 14 March 2017 20:28:28 UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/03/17 19:03, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:32:29 +0000, GB
wrote:

On 14/03/2017 15:35, Chris Hogg wrote:

Anyway, it seems that an electric car with a fully charged 100kWh
battery should be able to do much the same range as a petrol car on a
single tank. Glancing at Tesla, they are claiming about 300 mile range
for their cars with the biggest batteries. That would suit me fine, as 4
hours is my absolute maximum drive.

The point I wanted to make was that in order to charge an electric car
battery in times comparable with filling the tank with petrol, you'd
need an awful lot of amps at an awful lot of volts.


Tesla claims that you can get a 50% charge in 20 minutes at one of their
super-fast chargers. That sounds like around 100kW = 400 amps at 240v,
which seems rather high.

Yes, I agree with those figures. OK if you want to stop at a service
station and pop in for a coffee while you wait, but at busy times
there's often a queue for the normal petrol pumps, and they have a
fairly rapid turnover, so what it would be like with a twenty minute
wait I shudder to think.

Exactly. But you can charge a li-ion battery - if its designed for it -
in about 6 minutes, Gets a bit hot of course.

Which will add to global warming if 1000s are doing it day in day out.
Might be a few cool explosions too.

New battery tech?
 

On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 10:59:17 UTC, GB wrote:
On 15/03/2017 10:34, charles wrote:


You'd have a car park full of charging points.

Poeple have enough difficulty finding parking spaces as it is.

People would plug in and
their car would charge for 20 minutes. So, they'd go for a 20 minute
coffee. Which might turn into lunch, lasting 40 minutes ....

But most wouldnlt want to do that.
No one really wants to spend time in garages it just leaves people time to buy crap in thr shop and if you have a family it'll cost a small fortune.

New battery tech?
 

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 10:59:17 UTC, GB wrote:
On 15/03/2017 10:34, charles wrote:


You'd have a car park full of charging points.

Poeple have enough difficulty finding parking spaces as it is.

Not usually at a motorway service station, which was mentioned as usually
having queues at the filling station.

People would plug in and
their car would charge for 20 minutes. So, they'd go for a 20 minute
coffee. Which might turn into lunch, lasting 40 minutes ....

But most wouldnlt want to do that. No one really wants to spend time in
garages it just leaves people time to buy crap in thr shop and if you
have a family it'll cost a small fortune.

If you know an electric car takes a given time to re-charge you'd just
allow for that in your journey. So do it at a meal etc stop. Most won't
drive far enough to use a full tank of petrol without stopping for a break
- so only needs planning.

What would be more of a pest is when the battery is no longer in the first
flush of youth and has a much reduced range. Something that doesn't really
happen with a conventional car.

--
*When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

New battery tech?
 

On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 15:20:07 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 14 March 2017 20:28:28 UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/03/17 19:03, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:32:29 +0000, GB
wrote:

On 14/03/2017 15:35, Chris Hogg wrote:

Anyway, it seems that an electric car with a fully charged 100kWh
battery should be able to do much the same range as a petrol car on a
single tank. Glancing at Tesla, they are claiming about 300 mile range
for their cars with the biggest batteries. That would suit me fine, as 4
hours is my absolute maximum drive.

The point I wanted to make was that in order to charge an electric car
battery in times comparable with filling the tank with petrol, you'd
need an awful lot of amps at an awful lot of volts.


Tesla claims that you can get a 50% charge in 20 minutes at one of their
super-fast chargers. That sounds like around 100kW = 400 amps at 240v,
which seems rather high.

Yes, I agree with those figures. OK if you want to stop at a service
station and pop in for a coffee while you wait, but at busy times
there's often a queue for the normal petrol pumps, and they have a
fairly rapid turnover, so what it would be like with a twenty minute
wait I shudder to think.

Exactly. But you can charge a li-ion battery - if its designed for it -
in about 6 minutes, Gets a bit hot of course.

Which will add to global warming if 1000s are doing it day in day out.
Might be a few cool explosions too.

Most people will slow charge by night at home.

New battery tech?
 

On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 16:29:40 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 10:59:17 UTC, GB wrote:
On 15/03/2017 10:34, charles wrote:


You'd have a car park full of charging points.

Poeple have enough difficulty finding parking spaces as it is.

Not usually at a motorway service station, which was mentioned as usually
having queues at the filling station.

Is that where most people fill up at motorway service stations ?



People would plug in and
their car would charge for 20 minutes. So, they'd go for a 20 minute
coffee. Which might turn into lunch, lasting 40 minutes ....

But most wouldnlt want to do that. No one really wants to spend time in
garages it just leaves people time to buy crap in thr shop and if you
have a family it'll cost a small fortune.

If you know an electric car takes a given time to re-charge you'd just
allow for that in your journey.

I guess people never fill up on the way to or back from work then.
Seems a bit starnge that peole might not mind an extar 20mins to their commute journey.




So do it at a meal etc stop. Most won't
drive far enough to use a full tank of petrol without stopping for a break
- so only needs planning.

Most use their cars for work and drive about 1-2 hours.


What would be more of a pest is when the battery is no longer in the first
flush of youth and has a much reduced range. Something that doesn't really
happen with a conventional car.

That's triue but it could be built in to the cars software, you have that with phones and laptops not sure how quickly a car battery would age and become annoying. Go for an hours drive and spend 15mins charging not sure most would find that acceptable.

New battery tech?
 

On 15/03/2017 16:35, harry wrote:

Most people will slow charge by night at home.


You greens hope they will or the grid falls down.

You charge by night rather than using your solar panels don't you.
Not very green doing that.

New battery tech?
 

On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 16:35:30 UTC, harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 15:20:07 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 14 March 2017 20:28:28 UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/03/17 19:03, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:32:29 +0000, GB
wrote:

On 14/03/2017 15:35, Chris Hogg wrote:

Anyway, it seems that an electric car with a fully charged 100kWh
battery should be able to do much the same range as a petrol car on a
single tank. Glancing at Tesla, they are claiming about 300 mile range
for their cars with the biggest batteries. That would suit me fine, as 4
hours is my absolute maximum drive.

The point I wanted to make was that in order to charge an electric car
battery in times comparable with filling the tank with petrol, you'd
need an awful lot of amps at an awful lot of volts.


Tesla claims that you can get a 50% charge in 20 minutes at one of their
super-fast chargers. That sounds like around 100kW = 400 amps at 240v,
which seems rather high.

Yes, I agree with those figures. OK if you want to stop at a service
station and pop in for a coffee while you wait, but at busy times
there's often a queue for the normal petrol pumps, and they have a
fairly rapid turnover, so what it would be like with a twenty minute
wait I shudder to think.

Exactly. But you can charge a li-ion battery - if its designed for it -
in about 6 minutes, Gets a bit hot of course.

Which will add to global warming if 1000s are doing it day in day out.
Might be a few cool explosions too.

Most people will slow charge by night at home.

Most people as yet don't have that facility and even them will their CU and cabling be up to it on a large scale. Outside my flat you'll be lucky to find a parking space.

New battery tech?
 

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 16:29:40 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 10:59:17 UTC, GB wrote:
On 15/03/2017 10:34, charles wrote:


You'd have a car park full of charging points.

Poeple have enough difficulty finding parking spaces as it is.

Not usually at a motorway service station, which was mentioned as
usually having queues at the filling station.

Is that where most people fill up at motorway service stations ?

only if they've miscalculated - fuel usually costs at least 5p more per
litre than at Sainsburys

People would plug in and their car would charge for 20 minutes. So,
they'd go for a 20 minute coffee. Which might turn into lunch,
lasting 40 minutes ....

But most wouldnlt want to do that. No one really wants to spend time
in garages it just leaves people time to buy crap in thr shop and if
you have a family it'll cost a small fortune.

If you know an electric car takes a given time to re-charge you'd just
allow for that in your journey.

I guess people never fill up on the way to or back from work then. Seems
a bit starnge that peole might not mind an extar 20mins to their commute
journey.

mm. when I coomuted by car I only needed to fill up once a fortnight not
every day.


So do it at a meal etc stop. Most won't drive far enough to use a full
tank of petrol without stopping for a break - so only needs planning.

Most use their cars for work and drive about 1-2 hours.

that's a long commute. I reckoned on under an hour - unless I got the
timing wrong


What would be more of a pest is when the battery is no longer in the
first flush of youth and has a much reduced range. Something that
doesn't really happen with a conventional car.

That's triue but it could be built in to the cars software, you have that
with phones and laptops not sure how quickly a car battery would age and
become annoying. Go for an hours drive and spend 15mins charging not
sure most would find that acceptable.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

New battery tech?
 

In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
On 15/03/2017 16:35, harry wrote:

Most people will slow charge by night at home.


You greens hope they will or the grid falls down.

You charge by night rather than using your solar panels don't you.
Not very green doing that.


you can't take your solar panels to the office with you

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

New battery tech?
 

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
If you know an electric car takes a given time to re-charge you'd just
allow for that in your journey.

I guess people never fill up on the way to or back from work then. Seems
a bit starnge that peole might not mind an extar 20mins to their commute
journey.

They'd charge the car at work or at home.

Perhaps you'd not noticed, but mains electricity is pretty readily
available. Unlike petrol.

--
*I finally got my head together, now my body is falling apart.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

New battery tech?
 

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Most people as yet don't have that facility and even them will their CU
and cabling be up to it on a large scale. Outside my flat you'll be
lucky to find a parking space.

But given you don't have a car, is that a problem?

--
*Sometimes I wake up grumpy; Other times I let him sleep.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

New battery tech?
 

whisky-dave Wrote in message:
On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 16:35:30 UTC, harry wrote:
On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 15:20:07 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 14 March 2017 20:28:28 UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/03/17 19:03, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Tue, 14 Mar 2017 17:32:29 +0000, GB
wrote:

On 14/03/2017 15:35, Chris Hogg wrote:

Anyway, it seems that an electric car with a fully charged 100kWh
battery should be able to do much the same range as a petrol car on a
single tank. Glancing at Tesla, they are claiming about 300 mile range
for their cars with the biggest batteries. That would suit me fine, as 4
hours is my absolute maximum drive.

The point I wanted to make was that in order to charge an electric car
battery in times comparable with filling the tank with petrol, you'd
need an awful lot of amps at an awful lot of volts.


Tesla claims that you can get a 50% charge in 20 minutes at one of their
super-fast chargers. That sounds like around 100kW = 400 amps at 240v,
which seems rather high.

Yes, I agree with those figures. OK if you want to stop at a service
station and pop in for a coffee while you wait, but at busy times
there's often a queue for the normal petrol pumps, and they have a
fairly rapid turnover, so what it would be like with a twenty minute
wait I shudder to think.

Exactly. But you can charge a li-ion battery - if its designed for it -
in about 6 minutes, Gets a bit hot of course.

Which will add to global warming if 1000s are doing it day in day out.
Might be a few cool explosions too.

Most people will slow charge by night at home.

Most people as yet don't have that facility and even them will their CU and cabling be up to it on a large scale. Outside my flat you'll be lucky to find a parking space.



Public transport's going to make a comeback.... The even greater
unwashed...

--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

New battery tech?
 

On 15/03/2017 18:28, Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 16:41:29 +0000, Chris Hogg wrote:

On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 12:19:37 +0000, GB
wrote:

On 15/03/2017 11:54, Chris Hogg wrote:

True. Has anyone worked out how much extra generating capacity we'd need
if every vehicle was electric?

Yes, somewhere between two and three times what we have at the moment.
You'd never get anywhere near enough extra power without extensive use
of nukes.


How do you work that out? My figure is 12GW, largely to be provided
off-peak.

groan I thought someone might ask. I worked it out and posted it
here a while back, but for the moment I can't find the post.

Had to recreate the figures. Not sure they're exactly the same, but
they'll do.

From here, http://tinyurl.com/gmye7vk and in particular ENV0102
(sorry, it's an ODS file, but if you don't use Open Office or have an
old version of Excel that won't read them, like me, there are several
on-line converters to Excel), total fuel used in road transport in
2015 was 40.5Mtoe (million tonnes of oil equivalent), equivalent to
471TWh (1Mtoe = 11.63TWh). In 2015 we used 360TWh of electricity
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...pter_5_web.pdf.
and scroll down to 5.1 Commodity Balances, last column, eighth row,
Total Supply.

So to power all our road transport by electricity and supply the
existing market, we would have to produce 831 TWh of electricity
(471+360), per annum, 2.3 times what we presently produce. But that's
an over-estimate, as doesn't take into account the improved efficiency
of electric vehicles, so it would be somewhat less than twice in
reality.

Just noticed that you've quoted power, GW, rather than energy GWh or
TWh. To convert my numbers to GW, divide by the number of hours in a
year (8760), and multiply by 1000 to get to GW. So an energy of 360TWh
becomes a power level of 41.1GW, an energy of 471TWh becomes a power
level of 53.8GW and an energy of 831TWh becomes a power level of
94.9GW, but of course the ratios remain the same.


With due respect, the error in your calcs is that you are forgetting
that electric traction is almost 100% efficient, whilst ICEs are about
25% efficient. If we take the ratio as 3:1, your estimate of the extra
power required is about 3 times too high.

You *should* have estimated The extra power needed as 471/3 = 157 TWh,
which is around 40% of current electricity consumption. I would settle
for that. Some of it could be provided by utilising unused capacity at
off-peak times, and the rest would require some power station building.

New battery tech?
 

In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
True. Has anyone worked out how much extra generating capacity we'd
need if every vehicle was electric?

All of this assumes the next 50 years are going to be like the last.

I can't help but feel we're in the last days of the car - certainly as a
solution to private transport.

The end of the car will coincide with the end of the world as we know it.

If anyone has actually thought beyond the press releases, it's obvious
that the *big* (I mean beyond Government spending) money - from Google
et al - is going on the idea of autonomous/driverless cars.

Of course. Business always wants to sell you something new.

The second you have a car which drives itself, you can immediately halve
- maybe quarter - the number of cars needed to move people around. After
all 80% of cars are unused for 80% of the 24 hours in a day.

Given how many thing of their car as part of themselves - not to be lent
or shared in any way - I can't see that.

Couple that with an Uber-style supply/demand network, and in 30 years
time the idea of owning and driving a car (which will have become *very*
expensive) will seem just weird.

Taxis ain't new. All the disadvantages of them still apply - no matter how
cheap and reliable the service is. But Uber only exists because of a big
supply of cheap labour. And those better paid who can afford it.

The ICE car was first available for public use in the 1897. By 1930
every village blacksmith had turned to car repairs. I believe we'll see
the same seismic shift with driverless cars.

But still a car. Cars have been getting easier to drive as time went on.
Driverless simply being an extension of that. But people will still want
their own choice of make and model - even if if capable of driving itself

Of course a true autonomous car will just drive to the nearest power
point, and charge until ready. But there will always be a fleet "on the
road" to handle capacity.

There have been plenty of 'pool' car systems tried. With limited success.
Same as pool bikes. Some do use them - but there seem to be even more
owned ones on the roads than ever.

Such a future does bring into question the entire purpose of railways,
of course. Which is why - especially given it's glacial timescale - HS2
seems like an absolute waste of money.

Driverless cars will never match the speed of a train between city centres.

--
*Organized Crime Is Alive And Well; It's Called Auto Insurance.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

New battery tech?
 

On 16/03/2017 11:30, Chris Hogg wrote:

But we're not a million miles apart. The key point is that one can't
just switch over to an all-electric transport system simply by
plugging in ones car into the socket in the garage to charge it
overnight on the assumption that the electricity is always available,
which I'm sure a lot of people imagine will happen. We're on a knife
edge with electrical supplies in winter as it is, and any increase in
consumption without a corresponding increase in supply and
distribution facilities will just not work.


I'm sure that's right. There may be some overall saving in fuel and
hence pollution, as power stations are more thermodynamically efficient
than ICEs. (Actually, I'm just assuming that, so I'll wait to be
engulfed in flames.)

However, we don't need to build lots of power stations just yet. At
least, not for that reason. At Dec-2016, we had 90,000 electric vehicles
on the road, out of a total of around 37 million licensed vehicles. So,
it's not exactly happening overnight.

New battery tech?
 

On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 17:11:38 UTC, charles wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 16:29:40 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 10:59:17 UTC, GB wrote:
On 15/03/2017 10:34, charles wrote:


You'd have a car park full of charging points.

Poeple have enough difficulty finding parking spaces as it is.

Not usually at a motorway service station, which was mentioned as
usually having queues at the filling station.

Is that where most people fill up at motorway service stations ?

only if they've miscalculated - fuel usually costs at least 5p more per
litre than at Sainsburys

that's what I thought and I'll assume and until proved wrong thsat service stations will rip you off for charging too, otherwise how wil they make a profit as petrol sales decline due to electric vehicals ?



If you know an electric car takes a given time to re-charge you'd just
allow for that in your journey.

I guess people never fill up on the way to or back from work then. Seems
a bit starnge that peole might not mind an extar 20mins to their commute
journey.

mm. when I coomuted by car I only needed to fill up once a fortnight not
every day.

Cars have a longer range using petrol at the moment.
Most electric cars are about 100 miles on a charge aren't they.
If you only have a up to 10 mile drive then get a bike.


So do it at a meal etc stop. Most won't drive far enough to use a full
tank of petrol without stopping for a break - so only needs planning.

Most use their cars for work and drive about 1-2 hours.

that's a long commute. I reckoned on under an hour - unless I got the
timing wrong

you were lucky then.
So as most already know electric cars are mostly only a short range option.

New battery tech?
 

On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 18:01:26 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
If you know an electric car takes a given time to re-charge you'd just
allow for that in your journey.

I guess people never fill up on the way to or back from work then. Seems
a bit starnge that peole might not mind an extar 20mins to their commute
journey.

They'd charge the car at work or at home.

Most in london can't even park outside their own home. so were will they plug it into.
As an example my brother visit me in his car on a sunday used to come saturday too in the last 14 months h';es only been able to park outside my home ONCE and even then it's in the street I;n need to find a way of getting the charging cable to the car he usually has to park on the other soide of the road the last two weekend he had difficulty finding a space in the same road.
Not all places of work have parking spaces for everyone usually just executives.


Perhaps you'd not noticed, but mains electricity is pretty readily
available. Unlike petrol.

It;s not easily availible in the street where cars normally park for the majority, and that's when they have houses what about the new builds of flats and as they convert 4 bed houses into 3 or more flats there just isn't the space.




--
*I finally got my head together, now my body is falling apart.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

New battery tech?
 

On Wednesday, 15 March 2017 18:01:26 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Most people as yet don't have that facility and even them will their CU
and cabling be up to it on a large scale. Outside my flat you'll be
lucky to find a parking space.

But given you don't have a car, is that a problem?

Not for me but next door has 2 vans and a car they mostly have to park on the other side of the road.

New battery tech?
 

On 16/03/2017 12:08, whisky-dave wrote:

Most in london can't even park outside their own home. so were will they plug it into.
As an example my brother visit me in his car on a sunday used to come saturday too in the last 14 months h';es only been able to park outside my home ONCE and even then it's in the street I;n need to find a way of getting the charging cable to the car he usually has to park on the other soide of the road the last two weekend he had difficulty finding a space in the same road.
Not all places of work have parking spaces for everyone usually just executives.


Pavement charging point.

New battery tech?
 

On Thursday, 16 March 2017 12:14:58 UTC, GB wrote:
On 16/03/2017 12:08, whisky-dave wrote:

Most in london can't even park outside their own home. so were will they plug it into.
As an example my brother visit me in his car on a sunday used to come saturday too in the last 14 months h';es only been able to park outside my home ONCE and even then it's in the street I;n need to find a way of getting the charging cable to the car he usually has to park on the other soide of the road the last two weekend he had difficulty finding a space in the same road.
Not all places of work have parking spaces for everyone usually just executives.


Pavement charging point.

https://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/con...harging-points

were can buy a 2 mile extention lead ;-)