On Thursday, 16 March 2017 18:07:18 UTC, GB wrote:
On 16/03/2017 12:33, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 16 March 2017 12:14:58 UTC, GB wrote:
On 16/03/2017 12:08, whisky-dave wrote:

Most in london can't even park outside their own home. so were will they plug it into.
As an example my brother visit me in his car on a sunday used to come saturday too in the last 14 months h';es only been able to park outside my home ONCE and even then it's in the street I;n need to find a way of getting the charging cable to the car he usually has to park on the other soide of the road the last two weekend he had difficulty finding a space in the same road.
Not all places of work have parking spaces for everyone usually just executives.


Pavement charging point.

https://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/con...harging-points

were can buy a 2 mile extention lead ;-)


There are only 90,000 electric cars at the moment. You can't expect a
charging point outside every house.

I would expect to see at least a few locally, I wouldnlt expect to drive 2 miles to see one. It hardly encourages anyone to go electric does it.
A friend is considering a new car he's a bit of a greeny but I doubt he's stupid to get an electric car.
Unless of course someone can explain to him how to get a charging point and who pays for it etc. and whther it's your own or do you share it with the rest of the block or street.

On Thursday, 16 March 2017 19:22:06 UTC, GB wrote:
On 16/03/2017 18:46, tim... wrote:


"GB" wrote in message
news
On 16/03/2017 12:33, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 16 March 2017 12:14:58 UTC, GB wrote:
On 16/03/2017 12:08, whisky-dave wrote:

Most in london can't even park outside their own home. so were will
they plug it into.
As an example my brother visit me in his car on a sunday used to
come saturday too in the last 14 months h';es only been able to
park outside my home ONCE and even then it's in the street I;n need
to find a way of getting the charging cable to the car he usually
has to park on the other soide of the road the last two weekend he
had difficulty finding a space in the same road.
Not all places of work have parking spaces for everyone usually
just executives.


Pavement charging point.

https://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/con...harging-points


were can buy a 2 mile extention lead ;-)


There are only 90,000 electric cars at the moment. You can't expect a
charging point outside every house.

but when they are 10 million?

There'll be lots of charging points. That's a pre-requisite for 10m
people to buy the cars. Obviously, people won't buy them unless they can
charge them.

Not very close to that are we.

https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/
4316 quite a way from 10 million. and that's in the whole country.
104,000 household in my boroguh alone.

Oh and of the 3 places that have charging point in my borough none charge for the electric but two charge for the parking.
£6.40 for 2 hours at blackhourse road.

On 17/03/2017 11:20, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 16 March 2017 19:22:06 UTC, GB wrote:
On 16/03/2017 18:46, tim... wrote:


"GB" wrote in message
news On 16/03/2017 12:33, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 16 March 2017 12:14:58 UTC, GB wrote:
On 16/03/2017 12:08, whisky-dave wrote:

Most in london can't even park outside their own home. so were will
they plug it into.
As an example my brother visit me in his car on a sunday used to
come saturday too in the last 14 months h';es only been able to
park outside my home ONCE and even then it's in the street I;n need
to find a way of getting the charging cable to the car he usually
has to park on the other soide of the road the last two weekend he
had difficulty finding a space in the same road.
Not all places of work have parking spaces for everyone usually
just executives.


Pavement charging point.

https://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/con...harging-points


were can buy a 2 mile extention lead ;-)


There are only 90,000 electric cars at the moment. You can't expect a
charging point outside every house.

but when they are 10 million?

There'll be lots of charging points. That's a pre-requisite for 10m
people to buy the cars. Obviously, people won't buy them unless they can
charge them.

Not very close to that are we.

https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/
4316 quite a way from 10 million. and that's in the whole country.
104,000 household in my boroguh alone.

Given that there are so few electric cars presently and so many people
charge at home, one public charge point per 20 cars sounds about right
to me.

In my local shopping road, all the parking places were taken yesterday
afternoon, except for the two electric charging bays.

In article , GB
writes
On 16/03/2017 11:30, Chris Hogg wrote:

But we're not a million miles apart. The key point is that one can't
just switch over to an all-electric transport system simply by
plugging in ones car into the socket in the garage to charge it
overnight on the assumption that the electricity is always available,
which I'm sure a lot of people imagine will happen. We're on a knife
edge with electrical supplies in winter as it is, and any increase in
consumption without a corresponding increase in supply and
distribution facilities will just not work.


I'm sure that's right. There may be some overall saving in fuel and
hence pollution, as power stations are more thermodynamically efficient
than ICEs. (Actually, I'm just assuming that, so I'll wait to be
engulfed in flames.)

However, we don't need to build lots of power stations just yet. At
least, not for that reason. At Dec-2016, we had 90,000 electric
vehicles on the road, out of a total of around 37 million licensed
vehicles. So, it's not exactly happening overnight.
But as with LPG the supply infrastructure has to be in place to persuade
the consumer to make the switch - then as with LPG the greedy government
comes along with its tax talons and screws up the whole thing.
--
bert

In article , Jethro_uk
writes
On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 10:35:03 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 00:22:44 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
Yes, I agree with those figures. OK if you want to stop at a service
station and pop in for a coffee while you wait, but at busy times
there's often a queue for the normal petrol pumps, and they have a
fairly rapid turnover, so what it would be like with a twenty minute
wait I shudder to think.

But you wouldn't need a traditional filling station - underground
tanks etc. The charging points could just be in the ordinary car park.

Indeed you could, and that's probably how it would work. Say fifty
charging points, each with a 1 MW capacity charger for rapid charging,
is quite a lot of power to be supplied.

And that's only for the cars...

True. Has anyone worked out how much extra generating capacity we'd need
if every vehicle was electric?

All of this assumes the next 50 years are going to be like the last.

I can't help but feel we're in the last days of the car - certainly as a
solution to private transport.

If anyone has actually thought beyond the press releases, it's obvious
that the *big* (I mean beyond Government spending) money - from Google et
al - is going on the idea of autonomous/driverless cars.

The second you have a car which drives itself, you can immediately halve
- maybe quarter - the number of cars needed to move people around. After
all 80% of cars are unused for 80% of the 24 hours in a day.

You may reduce the number of cars but it's the number of journeys that
matter. Many people who do not own cars or can't drive (the elderly and
the young) will suddenly be able to avail themselves of private
transport.
Couple that with an Uber-style supply/demand network, and in 30 years
time the idea of owning and driving a car (which will have become *very*
expensive) will seem just weird.

The ICE car was first available for public use in the 1897. By 1930 every
village blacksmith had turned to car repairs. I believe we'll see the
same seismic shift with driverless cars.

Of course a true autonomous car will just drive to the nearest power
point, and charge until ready. But there will always be a fleet "on the
road" to handle capacity.

Such a future does bring into question the entire purpose of railways, of
course. Which is why - especially given it's glacial timescale - HS2
seems like an absolute waste of money.

In terms of mass transit there is no way cars, driverless or otherwise,
can replace trains. HS2 is an essential project to upgrade capacity on
the west coast main line.
--
bert

On 17/03/17 11:02, tim... wrote:


"GB" wrote in message
news
On 16/03/2017 18:46, tim... wrote:


"GB" wrote in message
news On 16/03/2017 12:33, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 16 March 2017 12:14:58 UTC, GB wrote:
On 16/03/2017 12:08, whisky-dave wrote:

Most in london can't even park outside their own home. so were will
they plug it into.
As an example my brother visit me in his car on a sunday used to
come saturday too in the last 14 months h';es only been able to
park outside my home ONCE and even then it's in the street I;n need
to find a way of getting the charging cable to the car he usually
has to park on the other soide of the road the last two weekend he
had difficulty finding a space in the same road.
Not all places of work have parking spaces for everyone usually
just executives.


Pavement charging point.

https://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/con...harging-points



were can buy a 2 mile extention lead ;-)


There are only 90,000 electric cars at the moment. You can't expect a
charging point outside every house.

but when they are 10 million?

There'll be lots of charging points. That's a pre-requisite for 10m
people to buy the cars. Obviously, people won't buy them unless they
can charge them.

except the point is that TPTB aren't considering this a problem

there is nothing in planning regulations to make sure all new properties
electric car "friendly" and the current trend for as many houses as
possible per acre contrives to make them less electric car friendly
without even trying.

TPTB doint have to interfere.

In 20 years time 'included off road parking and charging point' will be
as important as 'good broadband' is today, and as other have pointed out
urban populations are FAR more likely to not own a car, but to have a
subscription to a driverless electric taxi service...



tim







--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Jethro_uk wrote:
True. Has anyone worked out how much extra generating capacity we'd
need if every vehicle was electric?

All of this assumes the next 50 years are going to be like the last.

I can't help but feel we're in the last days of the car - certainly as a
solution to private transport.

The end of the car will coincide with the end of the world as we know it.

If anyone has actually thought beyond the press releases, it's obvious
that the *big* (I mean beyond Government spending) money - from Google
et al - is going on the idea of autonomous/driverless cars.

Of course. Business always wants to sell you something new.

The second you have a car which drives itself, you can immediately halve
- maybe quarter - the number of cars needed to move people around. After
all 80% of cars are unused for 80% of the 24 hours in a day.

Given how many thing of their car as part of themselves - not to be lent
or shared in any way - I can't see that.

Couple that with an Uber-style supply/demand network, and in 30 years
time the idea of owning and driving a car (which will have become *very*
expensive) will seem just weird.

Taxis ain't new. All the disadvantages of them still apply - no matter how
cheap and reliable the service is. But Uber only exists because of a big
supply of cheap labour. And those better paid who can afford it.

The ICE car was first available for public use in the 1897. By 1930
every village blacksmith had turned to car repairs. I believe we'll see
the same seismic shift with driverless cars.

But still a car. Cars have been getting easier to drive as time went on.
Driverless simply being an extension of that. But people will still want
their own choice of make and model - even if if capable of driving itself

Of course a true autonomous car will just drive to the nearest power
point, and charge until ready. But there will always be a fleet "on the
road" to handle capacity.

There have been plenty of 'pool' car systems tried. With limited success.
Same as pool bikes. Some do use them - but there seem to be even more
owned ones on the roads than ever.

Such a future does bring into question the entire purpose of railways,
of course. Which is why - especially given it's glacial timescale - HS2
seems like an absolute waste of money.

Driverless cars will never match the speed of a train between city centres.

Nor can they provide the capacity. Just imagine all the Pendelinos
thundering down the west coast mainline carrying 700+ people being
replaced by a snail of cars
--
bert

In article ,
writes
On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 11:21:02 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:



of course. Which is why - especially given it's glacial timescale - HS2
seems like an absolute waste of money.

Driverless cars will never match the speed of a train between city centres.

Who knows what may happen, a train at present is a collection of
vehicles physically joined together , could in the future a
collection of vehicles such as driverless cars virtually joined
together be classed as a train with vehicles dropping in and out as
required.
So I want to join this track at some intermediate point. Do I have to
wait for a "train" to come past to tag on to or do I just join and
tootle along on my own until I get hit up the arse by a faster "train".
So a "train " of vehicles leave the outskirts of London
Ah so I have to wait for a "train" to form?
and head
North, those who want to go to a place en route such as Birmingham
break away and go there. Those who want to go to Glasgow carry on
with no stops, range and bladders allowing.

To replace one 11 coach Pendelino would require about 350 cars. Say 10
per hour out of Euston that's 3500 cars
Raise the speed limit a bit to 80 and missing all those 5 min stops at
stations en route a normal and the journey times will become fairly
competitive with the traditional train as we know it where all on
board make no progress for a few minutes while others get on and off.
80 mph? Current trains are doing over 120 HS2 will be approaching 200 or
more and the only stops will be Birmingham and Manchester with
occasional stops a Crewe and Stafford.

Your car will still be stuck at Watford

And that is before you include time getting to and from the Railway
station anyway, where you are in London that is just a few stops on a
tube but for large number of people they have to use another means of
transport to reach a railhead in the first place , and that is another
cost on top of the actual railway fare whether that is paying to park
a car or Taxi/Mini cab fare Interchanging between that and Railway
train is usually about 20 mins unless you want to risk being delayed
on the way and missing a train departure so that needs to be set
against your total door to door time as well so makes doing the whole
journey by driverless car even more favourable.

And what if a car breaks down or runs out of energy?
G.Harman

--
bert

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Clive George wrote:
On 16/03/2017 19:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
Ever been on a train where it drops off a few carriages? ;-)

No I'm too young.

Still quite common round here.

That's splitting train, not yer actual slip coach.

Still takes time. Even with the conductor helping out. Something those
wanting driver only trains like to ignore.

No one wants driver only trains, They are actually driver only operated
trains.
--
bert

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Clive George wrote:
On 16/03/2017 19:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
Ever been on a train where it drops off a few carriages? ;-)

No I'm too young.

Still quite common round here.

That's splitting train, not yer actual slip coach.

Still takes time. Even with the conductor helping out. Something those
wanting driver only trains like to ignore.

That's what the platform staff are for.

What platform staff? And would it make more sense to have someone kicking
their heels on a quiet station platform just for the purpose of helping
out when a train splits? Rather than having a guard on the train who can
also check tickets, etc?

That's why driver only operated trains will still have conductors - some
thing which your fellow thickos it the RMT don't seem to be able to get
their heads round.
--
bert

In article ,
writes
On Thu, 16 Mar 2017 19:10:16 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
Ever been on a train where it drops off a few carriages? ;-)

No I'm too young.

Still quite common round here.

Depends on what terminology you mean by drop off,
lots of trains are divided after the entire train has come to a full
stop which means the total passenger compliment has to wait till the
sections start to progress to their destinations or often part to a
depot.
As the link I provided mentions the last UK drop off from a train
where the main portion carried on its way without stopping so the
passengers in that section were not delayed by the many having to wait
for a few took place in 1960. It is that style of operation I could
see a "Train" of driverless cars mimicking as they progress on their
virtual "tracks" of a motorway. It might happen to an extent already
as adaptive cruise control and lane keeping assist becomes more
popular,
there must be some occasions where a half a dozen or so of such cars
fitted with these devices have already followed each other for some
miles till one turned off or another one joined in.
That can only increase as more vehicles get equipped with it.

G.Harman
But such cars would act independently and would not gain anything by
being linked into a virtual train
--
bert

On 17/03/2017 11:10, whisky-dave wrote:

There are only 90,000 electric cars at the moment. You can't expect
a charging point outside every house.

I would expect to see at least a few locally, I wouldnlt expect to
drive 2 miles to see one. It hardly encourages anyone to go electric
does it. A friend is considering a new car he's a bit of a greeny but
I doubt he's stupid to get an electric car. Unless of course someone
can explain to him how to get a charging point and who pays for it
etc.

If you get a charging point installed on your property, the government
pays 75% of the cost. That's then yours to use whenever needed.

and whther it's your own or do you share it with the rest of
the block or street.

As things currently stand, it would not make sense to get an EV unless
your friend has space for his own charging point. If there's only one
public charger in the neighbourhood, you couldn't rely on that for your
daily commute.

On 17/03/2017 11:56, bert wrote:

Nor can they provide the capacity. Just imagine all the Pendelinos
thundering down the west coast mainline carrying 700+ people being
replaced by a snail of cars

Hm.. train every ten minutes with 700 people on

~70 people a minute

so 70 cars a minute.

three lane motorway will easily have more than that.

The M6 handles 130000 cars,buses and lorries a day in each direction.
That's a lot of trains call it 130 a day so one every 11 minutes all day.

Of course they all want to travel at the same rush hour so trains have
*no* chance of meeting demand when the roads are shut.

On Friday, 17 March 2017 11:35:31 UTC, GB wrote:
On 17/03/2017 11:20, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 16 March 2017 19:22:06 UTC, GB wrote:
On 16/03/2017 18:46, tim... wrote:


"GB" wrote in message
news On 16/03/2017 12:33, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 16 March 2017 12:14:58 UTC, GB wrote:
On 16/03/2017 12:08, whisky-dave wrote:

Most in london can't even park outside their own home. so were will
they plug it into.
As an example my brother visit me in his car on a sunday used to
come saturday too in the last 14 months h';es only been able to
park outside my home ONCE and even then it's in the street I;n need
to find a way of getting the charging cable to the car he usually
has to park on the other soide of the road the last two weekend he
had difficulty finding a space in the same road.
Not all places of work have parking spaces for everyone usually
just executives.


Pavement charging point.

https://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/con...harging-points


were can buy a 2 mile extention lead ;-)


There are only 90,000 electric cars at the moment. You can't expect a
charging point outside every house.

but when they are 10 million?

There'll be lots of charging points. That's a pre-requisite for 10m
people to buy the cars. Obviously, people won't buy them unless they can
charge them.

Not very close to that are we.

https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/
4316 quite a way from 10 million. and that's in the whole country.
104,000 household in my boroguh alone.

Given that there are so few electric cars presently and so many people
charge at home, one public charge point per 20 cars sounds about right
to me.

Check again.
My borough 104,000 households
total charging points in the whole country 4316.

I havent seen any private chargers locally unless they hang a lead out of their window when I'm not looking.


In my local shopping road, all the parking places were taken yesterday
afternoon, except for the two electric charging bays.

Makes sense but two out of how many ?

On 17/03/2017 13:02, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 17 March 2017 11:35:31 UTC, GB wrote:
On 17/03/2017 11:20, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 16 March 2017 19:22:06 UTC, GB wrote:
On 16/03/2017 18:46, tim... wrote:


"GB" wrote in message
news On 16/03/2017 12:33, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 16 March 2017 12:14:58 UTC, GB wrote:
On 16/03/2017 12:08, whisky-dave wrote:

Most in london can't even park outside their own home. so were will
they plug it into.
As an example my brother visit me in his car on a sunday used to
come saturday too in the last 14 months h';es only been able to
park outside my home ONCE and even then it's in the street I;n need
to find a way of getting the charging cable to the car he usually
has to park on the other soide of the road the last two weekend he
had difficulty finding a space in the same road.
Not all places of work have parking spaces for everyone usually
just executives.


Pavement charging point.

https://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/con...harging-points


were can buy a 2 mile extention lead ;-)


There are only 90,000 electric cars at the moment. You can't expect a
charging point outside every house.

but when they are 10 million?

There'll be lots of charging points. That's a pre-requisite for 10m
people to buy the cars. Obviously, people won't buy them unless they can
charge them.

Not very close to that are we.

https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/
4316 quite a way from 10 million. and that's in the whole country.
104,000 household in my boroguh alone.

Given that there are so few electric cars presently and so many people
charge at home, one public charge point per 20 cars sounds about right
to me.

Check again.
My borough 104,000 households
total charging points in the whole country 4316.

Yes, that's 20 EVs per charging point.


I havent seen any private chargers locally unless they hang a lead out of their window when I'm not looking.

It's currently not a practical proposition to have an EV unless you have
off-road parking where you can have your own charging point.

Given that, the demand for public charging points in a shopping street
is pretty limited. Still, it's cool to have a reserved parking spot.



In my local shopping road, all the parking places were taken yesterday
afternoon, except for the two electric charging bays.

Makes sense but two out of how many ?

50?

On Friday, 17 March 2017 12:02:28 UTC, bert wrote:
In article , Jethro_uk
writes
On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 10:35:03 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


Such a future does bring into question the entire purpose of railways, of
course. Which is why - especially given it's glacial timescale - HS2
seems like an absolute waste of money.

In terms of mass transit there is no way cars, driverless or otherwise,
can replace trains. HS2 is an essential project to upgrade capacity on
the west coast main line.

and there's no way trains will, replace trains, you want to get somewhere quick take a plane not a train, it'll be cheaper too.

On Friday, 17 March 2017 13:07:36 UTC, GB wrote:
On 17/03/2017 13:02, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 17 March 2017 11:35:31 UTC, GB wrote:
On 17/03/2017 11:20, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 16 March 2017 19:22:06 UTC, GB wrote:
On 16/03/2017 18:46, tim... wrote:


"GB" wrote in message
news On 16/03/2017 12:33, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 16 March 2017 12:14:58 UTC, GB wrote:
On 16/03/2017 12:08, whisky-dave wrote:

Most in london can't even park outside their own home. so were will
they plug it into.
As an example my brother visit me in his car on a sunday used to
come saturday too in the last 14 months h';es only been able to
park outside my home ONCE and even then it's in the street I;n need
to find a way of getting the charging cable to the car he usually
has to park on the other soide of the road the last two weekend he
had difficulty finding a space in the same road.
Not all places of work have parking spaces for everyone usually
just executives.


Pavement charging point.

https://www.walthamforest.gov.uk/con...harging-points


were can buy a 2 mile extention lead ;-)


There are only 90,000 electric cars at the moment. You can't expect a
charging point outside every house.

but when they are 10 million?

There'll be lots of charging points. That's a pre-requisite for 10m
people to buy the cars. Obviously, people won't buy them unless they can
charge them.

Not very close to that are we.

https://www.zap-map.com/statistics/
4316 quite a way from 10 million. and that's in the whole country.
104,000 household in my boroguh alone.

Given that there are so few electric cars presently and so many people
charge at home, one public charge point per 20 cars sounds about right
to me.

Check again.
My borough 104,000 households
total charging points in the whole country 4316.

Yes, that's 20 EVs per charging point.

Please show how you worked that out .



I havent seen any private chargers locally unless they hang a lead out of their window when I'm not looking.

It's currently not a practical proposition to have an EV unless you have
off-road parking where you can have your own charging point.

Which is a problem when living in inner cities isn't it.

On Friday, 17 March 2017 13:08:50 UTC, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 17 March 2017 12:02:28 UTC, bert wrote:
In article , Jethro_uk
writes
On Wed, 15 Mar 2017 10:35:03 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


Such a future does bring into question the entire purpose of railways, of
course. Which is why - especially given it's glacial timescale - HS2
seems like an absolute waste of money.

In terms of mass transit there is no way cars, driverless or otherwise,
can replace trains. HS2 is an essential project to upgrade capacity on
the west coast main line.

and there's no way trains will, replace trains, you want to get somewhere quick take a plane not a train, it'll be cheaper too.

Should have been "and there's no way trains will, replace planes,"

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Clive George wrote:
On 16/03/2017 19:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
Ever been on a train where it drops off a few carriages? ;-)

No I'm too young.

Still quite common round here.

That's splitting train, not yer actual slip coach.

Still takes time. Even with the conductor helping out. Something those
wanting driver only trains like to ignore.

That's what the platform staff are for.

What platform staff?

The ones I see on the platform all the time at Ashford.

Ah. Right. The station in the UK all others are to be judged by.

And would it make more sense to have someone kicking their heels
on a quiet station platform just for the purpose of helping out
when a train splits?

Why would a train split at a quiet station? Much more likely at a busy
station, a junction such as Ashford is.

Really? So all junctions are automatically busy at all times of the day?

--
*CAN AN ATHEIST GET INSURANCE AGAINST ACTS OF GOD?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
Of course they all want to travel at the same rush hour so trains have
*no* chance of meeting demand when the roads are shut.

And not surprisingly, the roads have a hard time coping when PT isn't
running for whatever reason.

--
*Time is the best teacher; unfortunately it kills all its students.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 17/03/2017 13:31, whisky-dave wrote:

total charging points in the whole country 4316.

Yes, that's 20 EVs per charging point.

Please show how you worked that out .

90,000/4316 = 20 approx.





I havent seen any private chargers locally unless they hang a lead out of their window when I'm not looking.

It's currently not a practical proposition to have an EV unless you have
off-road parking where you can have your own charging point.

Which is a problem when living in inner cities isn't it.


So, people who live in inner cities can add lack of EVs to their other
deprivations. They can add a lack of spaces to park their ICE cars, too.

At least, though, if everyone else went over to EVs, they wouldn't be
choked by smog.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Check again.
My borough 104,000 households
total charging points in the whole country 4316.

I havent seen any private chargers locally unless they hang a lead out
of their window when I'm not looking.

I only personally know of one with an electric car. Its a Smart make, and
IIRC, no longer made. They have a newish apartment in Central London with
an underground car park, and a charging point there. Makes a good deal of
sense as a car for London only use.

--
*You're just jealous because the voices only talk to me *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 17 Mar 2017 12:15:28 +0000, bert wrote:


see a "Train" of driverless cars mimicking as they progress on their
virtual "tracks" of a motorway. It might happen to an extent already
as adaptive cruise control and lane keeping assist becomes more
popular,

But such cars would act independently and would not gain anything by
being linked into a virtual train

They will save on space required between them when for the portion of
those independent journeys that they are all going in the same
direction for a distance and each individual car is closer than would
be safe with manualy driven ones , no thinking time from human drivers
though it could well seem strange to present drivers who on the whole
get uncomfortable when people Tailgate.
The gain would be by greater through put on roads so if those cars are
not delayed by congestion that would have occured then they will have
gained something .
Now Hugh as given me the proper term have a read.
https://www.cnet.com/uk/news/platoon...-is-lining-up/

Like much of the driverless car concept it may never come about or
happen in a different way but it is one mode of operation that is
being looked at.

G.Harman

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
you want to get somewhere quick take a plane not a train, it'll be
cheaper too.

You need to talk to my niece who travels regularly between the NE of
Scotland and the London. Internal flights are simply too unreliable.

--
*Avoid clichés like the plague. (They're old hat.) *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 17/03/2017 13:57, wrote:
On Fri, 17 Mar 2017 12:15:28 +0000, bert wrote:


see a "Train" of driverless cars mimicking as they progress on their
virtual "tracks" of a motorway. It might happen to an extent already
as adaptive cruise control and lane keeping assist becomes more
popular,

But such cars would act independently and would not gain anything by
being linked into a virtual train

They will save on space required between them when for the portion of
those independent journeys that they are all going in the same
direction for a distance and each individual car is closer than would
be safe with manualy driven ones , no thinking time from human drivers
though it could well seem strange to present drivers who on the whole
get uncomfortable when people Tailgate.

All fine until an artic crosses the central reservation and you discover
you need the same stopping space as you did with a driver.

They are not a good idea whomever though it up.

On 17/03/2017 13:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
Of course they all want to travel at the same rush hour so trains have
*no* chance of meeting demand when the roads are shut.

And not surprisingly, the roads have a hard time coping when PT isn't
running for whatever reason.


They appear to cope amazingly well when the trains/tube go on strike.
They don't cope so well when its an unpredictable event.
Must be people being sensible about when to travel during strikes, etc.

On 17/03/2017 14:07, dennis@home wrote:

They will save on space required between them when for the portion of
those independent journeys that they are all going in the same
direction for a distance and each individual car is closer than would
be safe with manualy driven ones , no thinking time from human drivers
though it could well seem strange to present drivers who on the whole
get uncomfortable when people Tailgate.

All fine until an artic crosses the central reservation and you discover
you need the same stopping space as you did with a driver.

I'm not sure that's logical. The overall traffic density will be the
same, but it will be much more 'clumpy'. So, if we assume the artic will
wipe out whatever's in its path, with the present system it will
normally wipe out a couple of cars. With the new system, it will wipe
out lots more cars if it hits a train. But there will be big gaps
between trains, so there'll be a big chance of hitting nothing at all.
Overall, it should even up. More or less.

Plus, if the lorry is computer controlled, it won't cross the
reservation just because the driver falls asleep. Or rear-end a bunch of
cars.

On 17/03/2017 14:14, GB wrote:
On 17/03/2017 14:07, dennis@home wrote:

They will save on space required between them when for the portion of
those independent journeys that they are all going in the same
direction for a distance and each individual car is closer than would
be safe with manualy driven ones , no thinking time from human drivers
though it could well seem strange to present drivers who on the whole
get uncomfortable when people Tailgate.

All fine until an artic crosses the central reservation and you discover
you need the same stopping space as you did with a driver.

I'm not sure that's logical. The overall traffic density will be the
same, but it will be much more 'clumpy'. So, if we assume the artic will
wipe out whatever's in its path, with the present system it will
normally wipe out a couple of cars. With the new system, it will wipe
out lots more cars if it hits a train. But there will be big gaps
between trains, so there'll be a big chance of hitting nothing at all.
Overall, it should even up. More or less.

You have heard of Patrick's law?

Anyway what's the point of having these car trains if you don't increase
road density?


Plus, if the lorry is computer controlled, it won't cross the
reservation just because the driver falls asleep. Or rear-end a bunch of
cars.

On Friday, 17 March 2017 13:53:56 UTC, GB wrote:
On 17/03/2017 13:31, whisky-dave wrote:

total charging points in the whole country 4316.

Yes, that's 20 EVs per charging point.

Please show how you worked that out .

90,000/4316 = 20 approx.

Are plug-in cars electric cars too.
The there's the private charging points and it seems to include those that donlt charge for charging but count it as parking so charge for that.
I doubt anyone I n ow would be willing to drive 2 miles to park for £3..60
and leaving it for a few hours to charge.


I havent seen any private chargers locally unless they hang a lead out of their window when I'm not looking.

It's currently not a practical proposition to have an EV unless you have
off-road parking where you can have your own charging point.

Which is a problem when living in inner cities isn't it.


So, people who live in inner cities can add lack of EVs to their other
deprivations. They can add a lack of spaces to park their ICE cars, too.

Yep so maybe they'll stick to fossil fuel cars.


At least, though, if everyone else went over to EVs, they wouldn't be
choked by smog.

why hasn't everyone else gone over to electric car ?

In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
On 17/03/2017 13:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
Of course they all want to travel at the same rush hour so trains have
*no* chance of meeting demand when the roads are shut.

And not surprisingly, the roads have a hard time coping when PT isn't
running for whatever reason.


They appear to cope amazingly well when the trains/tube go on strike.

Yup. Many just stay at home. But roads are noticeably more congested. If
that is possible.

They don't cope so well when its an unpredictable event.
Must be people being sensible about when to travel during strikes, etc.

Do I hear goalposts being moved around?

--
*Proofread carefully to see if you any words out or mispeld something *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
GB wrote:
Plus, if the lorry is computer controlled, it won't cross the
reservation just because the driver falls asleep. Or rear-end a bunch of
cars.

Right. Computers never crash. ;-)

--
*A 'jiffy' is an actual unit of time for 1/100th of a second.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 17 Mar 2017 12:07:43 +0000, bert wrote:



Driverless cars will never match the speed of a train between city centres.

Who knows what may happen, a train at present is a collection of
vehicles physically joined together , could in the future a
collection of vehicles such as driverless cars virtually joined
together be classed as a train with vehicles dropping in and out as
required.
So I want to join this track at some intermediate point. Do I have to
wait for a "train" to come past to tag on to or do I just join and
tootle along on my own until I get hit up the arse by a faster "train".

Bert you twerp, we are talking about a possible mode of operation of
Driverless cars that may/ could happen in the future.
You won't have to do anything for a couple of reasons ,
1 because by the time driverless cars get to that stage you will most
likely be dead,
2 If by some chance you reach an extremely old age then with a
driverless car you journey decision will have been made at the
commencement of your journey , the driverless car in conjunction
with all the other driverless vehicles and some input from the road
management system will work out how to do it , so you won't be making
the decision when to join or to tootle anyway and if you get hit up
the arse that will mean the whole system has failed rather
drastically.


So a "train " of vehicles leave the outskirts of London
Ah so I have to wait for a "train" to form?
You arn't making the decision , we are talking about driverless cars
remember .
and head
North, those who want to go to a place en route such as Birmingham
break away and go there. Those who want to go to Glasgow carry on
with no stops, range and bladders allowing.

To replace one 11 coach Pendelino would require about 350 cars. Say 10
per hour out of Euston that's 3500 cars

Unless we revert to a stay at home society such as existed for most
till about 1900 we will need both road and rail , 3500 cars isn't that
huge an amount on a busy motorway and that is as it is now with
present free for all.

Raise the speed limit a bit to 80 and missing all those 5 min stops at
stations en route and the journey times will become fairly
competitive
80 mph? Current trains are doing over 120 HS2 will be approaching 200 or
more and the only stops will be Birmingham and Manchester with
occasional stops a Crewe and Stafford.

Your car will still be stuck at Watford
No it won't, it will be making reasonable progress Northwards, and if
as is most likely my destination will be Glasgow or further North then
HS2 isn't scheduled to reach that far for a long time.
Point to point journey time isn't the be all and end all if you have
the hassle to make your way to a rail terminal 2 hours away in the
first place.

And what if a car breaks down or runs out of energy?
which bit of
"with no stops, range and bladders allowing."
did you find hard to comprehend?

You can throw what ifs at any scenario.

What if the train loses power , what if a heat wave risks buckling
the track so they get speed restricted,what if there is a points
failure . The list could go on and on.

G.Harman

In article ,
writes
On Fri, 17 Mar 2017 12:15:28 +0000, bert wrote:


see a "Train" of driverless cars mimicking as they progress on their
virtual "tracks" of a motorway. It might happen to an extent already
as adaptive cruise control and lane keeping assist becomes more
popular,

But such cars would act independently and would not gain anything by
being linked into a virtual train

They will save on space required between them when for the portion of
those independent journeys that they are all going in the same
direction for a distance and each individual car is closer than would
be safe with manualy driven ones ,
Actually, no. One of the current problems facing developers is the fact
that driverless cars are actually slower to react to emergencies and any
unusual events.
no thinking time from human drivers
though it could well seem strange to present drivers who on the whole
get uncomfortable when people Tailgate.
The gain would be by greater through put on roads so if those cars are
not delayed by congestion that would have occured then they will have
gained something .
To get maximum through reduce speed, down to about 5mph.
I would suggest taking a train on west coast main line and look out the
window as the track runs alongside the M1. Then imagine another 3000+
cars pumped onto the motorway.
Now Hugh as given me the proper term have a read.
https://www.cnet.com/uk/news/platoon...-is-lining-up/

Like much of the driverless car concept it may never come about or
happen in a different way but it is one mode of operation that is
being looked at.

G.Harman

--
bert

In article , GB
writes
On 17/03/2017 14:07, dennis@home wrote:

They will save on space required between them when for the portion of
those independent journeys that they are all going in the same
direction for a distance and each individual car is closer than would
be safe with manualy driven ones , no thinking time from human drivers
though it could well seem strange to present drivers who on the whole
get uncomfortable when people Tailgate.

All fine until an artic crosses the central reservation and you discover
you need the same stopping space as you did with a driver.

I'm not sure that's logical. The overall traffic density will be the
same, but it will be much more 'clumpy'. So, if we assume the artic
will wipe out whatever's in its path, with the present system it will
normally wipe out a couple of cars. With the new system, it will wipe
out lots more cars if it hits a train.

But there will be big gaps between trains, so there'll be a big chance
of hitting nothing at all. Overall, it should even up. More or less.

There won't be "big gaps" between these "trains"

Plus, if the lorry is computer controlled, it won't cross the
reservation just because the driver falls asleep. Or rear-end a bunch
of cars.







--
bert

In article , Jethro_uk
writes
On Fri, 17 Mar 2017 14:07:20 +0000, dennis@home wrote:

On 17/03/2017 13:57, wrote:
[quoted text muted]

All fine until an artic crosses the central reservation and you discover
you need the same stopping space as you did with a driver

I'm suspecting that there will be a few stages ..

1) Autonomous control allowed
- Drivers of vehicles with the appropriate technology are allowed to
engage "auto" mode, if they wish. Probably for some stretches of
motorway. Obviously the vehicle will identify such roads itself (new
roadsign + GPS ?), and have a config setting "automatically engage
autonomous mode where allowed"

2) Autonomous mode mandatory
- roads that *only* allow autonomous vehicles. Probably more city-centres
to start with, and slowly enlarged to include trunk routes and link up
with the roads setup for (1) above.

This would reduce the pedestrian/vehicle interaction which worries some
people. Bearing in mind that when pedestrians are stupid enough to go
sightseeing on train tracks, we don't have any handwringing about how
dangerous it is to allow trains on the rails. Nor do we have the legal
wittering that the train manufacturer is liable ... even for trains which
have no driver. And they've been around for years.
We don't actively go around encouraging people to walk on train tracks.
City centre trams are different but they move relatively slowly.
--
bert

In article ,
GB wrote:
So, people who live in inner cities can add lack of EVs to their other
deprivations. They can add a lack of spaces to park their ICE cars, too.

At least, though, if everyone else went over to EVs, they wouldn't be
choked by smog.

Electric heating in homes etc too, then?

--
*Why is the third hand on the watch called a second hand?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
writes
On Fri, 17 Mar 2017 12:07:43 +0000, bert wrote:



Driverless cars will never match the speed of a train between city centres.

Who knows what may happen, a train at present is a collection of
vehicles physically joined together , could in the future a
collection of vehicles such as driverless cars virtually joined
together be classed as a train with vehicles dropping in and out as
required.
So I want to join this track at some intermediate point. Do I have to
wait for a "train" to come past to tag on to or do I just join and
tootle along on my own until I get hit up the arse by a faster "train".

Bert you twerp, we are talking about a possible mode of operation of
Driverless cars that may/ could happen in the future.
Ah resorting to abuse. The sign of a failed argument.
You won't have to do anything for a couple of reasons ,
1 because by the time driverless cars get to that stage you will most
likely be dead,
I hope so.

2 If by some chance you reach an extremely old age then with a
driverless car you journey decision will have been made at the
commencement of your journey , the driverless car in conjunction
with all the other driverless vehicles and some input from the road
management system will work out how to do it , so you won't be making
the decision when to join or to tootle anyway and if you get hit up
the arse that will mean the whole system has failed rather
drastically.

AH just like my sat nav.

So a "train " of vehicles leave the outskirts of London
Ah so I have to wait for a "train" to form?
You arn't making the decision , we are talking about driverless cars
remember .
and head
North, those who want to go to a place en route such as Birmingham
break away and go there. Those who want to go to Glasgow carry on
with no stops, range and bladders allowing.

To replace one 11 coach Pendelino would require about 350 cars. Say 10
per hour out of Euston that's 3500 cars

Unless we revert to a stay at home society such as existed for most
till about 1900 we will need both road and rail , 3500 cars isn't that
huge an amount on a busy motorway and that is as it is now with
present free for all.

3500 "extra" cars is a lot. That's why many slip roads now have traffic
signals.
Raise the speed limit a bit to 80 and missing all those 5 min stops at
stations en route and the journey times will become fairly
competitive
80 mph? Current trains are doing over 120 HS2 will be approaching 200 or
more and the only stops will be Birmingham and Manchester with
occasional stops a Crewe and Stafford.

Your car will still be stuck at Watford
No it won't, it will be making reasonable progress Northwards, and if
as is most likely my destination will be Glasgow or further North then
HS2 isn't scheduled to reach that far for a long time.
HS2 trains can run on conventional track, so 200mph to Crewe then 125mph
to Glasgow, no change of train necessary (except maybe at the hard
border which will be necessary if the Scots choose independence and are
allowed into the EU, an unlikely scenario I admit.
Point to point journey time isn't the be all and end all if you have
the hassle to make your way to a rail terminal 2 hours away in the
first place.

And what if a car breaks down or runs out of energy?
which bit of
"with no stops, range and bladders allowing."
did you find hard to comprehend?

But on a train those sort of inconveniences do not impact on journey
time whereas in your driverless car scenario they do,
You can throw what ifs at any scenario.

And you can overlook the inconvenient ones.
What if the train loses power , what if a heat wave risks buckling
the track so they get speed restricted,what if there is a points
failure . The list could go on and on.
The probability of a failure in your 350 car scenario is much greater
than that in a single train.

G.Harman

--
bert

In article ,
wrote:
Bert you twerp, we are talking about a possible mode of operation of
Driverless cars that may/ could happen in the future.
You won't have to do anything for a couple of reasons ,
1 because by the time driverless cars get to that stage you will most
likely be dead,
2 If by some chance you reach an extremely old age then with a
driverless car you journey decision will have been made at the
commencement of your journey , the driverless car in conjunction
with all the other driverless vehicles and some input from the road
management system will work out how to do it , so you won't be making
the decision when to join or to tootle anyway and if you get hit up
the arse that will mean the whole system has failed rather
drastically.

The thing is that trundling along a motorway - where a 'train' of cars
might be possible - isn't the problem anyway. It's congestion at the start
and end of that motorway, and where roads join it. Which would be made
worse by cars coupling up - even electronically.

--
*The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Friday, 17 March 2017 15:12:11 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
On 17/03/2017 13:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
Of course they all want to travel at the same rush hour so trains have
*no* chance of meeting demand when the roads are shut.

And not surprisingly, the roads have a hard time coping when PT isn't
running for whatever reason.


They appear to cope amazingly well when the trains/tube go on strike.

Yup. Many just stay at home. But roads are noticeably more congested. If
that is possible.

At such times my employer doesnt mind if I'm an hour late and sometimes some are allowed to go home early, and adminsatrative staff are allowed to stay at home and work from home.


They don't cope so well when its an unpredictable event.

Reminds me of star wars; attack of the clones when the mother ship or whatever SW call it went bang. All the clones just stopped moving.
Now you might think that is a bit far fetched or OT but look up "Locusts watching star wars"

Must be people being sensible about when to travel during strikes, etc.

Do I hear goalposts being moved around?

Does a goal post make a noise when it moves ..... when there's no one there to see it. :-)




--
*Proofread carefully to see if you any words out or mispeld something *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 17/03/2017 14:27, dennis@home wrote:

You have heard of Patrick's law?

No.