"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 00:30:33 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
wrote:
On 30/11/16 18:00, charles wrote:
I have that problem in a shower room. To wire in permanently means
removing a factory fitted, moulded on plug. Doing that negates the
guarantee,


I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

Can't see why it would if the plug is correctly fitted.

Isnt it simialr to a sticker falling off saying "warrenty void if
removed". All it means is the company refused to guarentee something that
could have been '****ed' with and then put back together so it's not
noticable.

I;'m not saying they are right to claim this it';s just what they say.

It;'s similar to lifetime guarantees where the con is that you have to
have a reciept why ? If a product is faulty it goers back to the
manufacter for replacement NOT the store, as where you brought it should
be irrelivant.

If a product is faulty it goes back to the store from which you bought it.

Not necessarily. Plenty of manufacturers are happy to honor the warranty
directly.

You have no contract with the manufacturer.

Irrelevant to what the manufacturer chooses to do warranty wise.

And most obviously with cars, you don’t have to get the warranty
work done by the dealer you bought the car from either.

NY wrote
charles wrote

If a product is faulty it goes back to the store from which you bought
it.
You have no contract with the manufacturer.

Though some appliances (eg our VAX vacuum cleaner) actually have a sticker
saying "in the event of a fault, do not return to store; instead phone
(manufacture's phone number)". I've always wondered how that squares with
contract law :-)

Its irrelevant to contract law. And manufacturer is free to do anything it
likes
with warranty claims as long as that is better than contract law provides.

And your warranty rights arent limited by contract law anyway.

On Thursday, 1 December 2016 17:49:50 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 01/12/2016 17:06, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 11:33:43 UTC, charles wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 00:30:33 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
wrote:
On 30/11/16 18:00, charles wrote:
I have that problem in a shower room. To wire in permanently means
removing a factory fitted, moulded on plug. Doing that negates the
guarantee,


I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

Can't see why it would if the plug is correctly fitted.

Isnt it simialr to a sticker falling off saying "warrenty void if
removed". All it means is the company refused to guarentee something that
could have been '****ed' with and then put back together so it's not
noticable.

I;'m not saying they are right to claim this it';s just what they say.

It;'s similar to lifetime guarantees where the con is that you have to
have a reciept why ? If a product is faulty it goers back to the
manufacter for replacement NOT the store, as where you brought it should
be irrelivant.

If a product is faulty it goes back to the store from which you bought it.
You have no contract with the manufacturer.

A friend had a canon camecoder 500i that was sent back to canon under guarantee
NOT to the store.

That may well be the case in that situation.

However, the legal responsibility belongs to the merchant it was bought
from.

How does a merchant know how long any product will last ?



None of that means there is any automatic requirement for the
manufacturer to honour any guarantee with an end user that they did not
sell to, since they have no contract with them - implied or otherwise.

If a manufactuer guarantees a product for life then why should they merchant support it for life ?
It's a con that you've fallen for as most people have to.

On Thursday, 1 December 2016 20:37:53 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 00:30:33 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
On 30/11/16 18:00, charles wrote:
I have that problem in a shower room. To wire in permanently means
removing a factory fitted, moulded on plug. Doing that negates the
guarantee,


I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

Can't see why it would if the plug is correctly fitted.

Isnt it simialr to a sticker falling off saying "warrenty void if
removed".

That has always been a lie. Removing that sticker
has no effect what so ever on your statutory rights.

Yes it does. If you do NOT carry out teh manufactures instruction the warrenty is void. I dare you try it buy a hard drive remove the sticker and send it back saying it doesn't work.




All it means is the company refused to guarentee something

They dont get to do that. The law says its guaranteed anyway.

Only if used properly or in accordence with the manufauters statement of use.

You can;t buy an aggke grinder then use it underwater and then take it back to the shop and say well it's failed I used it underwater and it stoped working so I want my money back.



that could have been '****ed' with and
then put back together so it's not noticable.

That's their problem and is irrelevant to the law on that.

No it is not if yuo dis-obey the manufacturer .



I;'m not saying they are right to claim this it';s just what they say.

It;'s similar to lifetime guarantees where the
con is that you have to have a reciept why ?

To prove that you didnt steal it.

why does that matter if you are guenteeing the product ?
It might NOT be stolen but a birthday present.


If a product is faulty it goers back to the
manufacter for replacement OT the store,

That is just plain wrong legally too.

Depends on the product and the agreement.
I store has to sell a product that is fit for purpose.


as where you brought it should be irrelivant.

Not when your rights are with the operation you bought it from.

It's not teh rights but the guarantee given, which is where extended guarantees come in they can be sold by anyone.

On Thursday, 1 December 2016 21:56:57 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 11:16:01 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 00:30:33 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
On 30/11/16 18:00, charles wrote:
I have that problem in a shower room. To wire in permanently
means
removing a factory fitted, moulded on plug. Doing that negates
the
guarantee,


I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

Can't see why it would if the plug is correctly fitted.

Isnt it simialr to a sticker falling off saying "warrenty void if
removed". All it means is the company refused to guarentee something
that could have been '****ed' with and then put back together so it's
not noticable.

You can see if a plug has been replaced.

and some say if the sticker has been removed they
can tell especailly if you've lost or damaged it.
Haven't you noticed that it;s only the sticker they
are worried about not what you've done. This is
partucually true for hard drives is where I still notice
it most. So if I removed the sticker even without even
plugging in teh drive it's warrenty would be void NOT
because I've used it or not used it purely because the
sticker is removed.

Legally that is just plain wrong, particularly
with desktop systems and other appliances.

Doesn't matter it's misuse fo product and that invalidates the guarantee.


I;'m not saying they are right to claim this it';s just what they say.

They say lots of things. Just whether they would stand up in law is a
different matter.

It most likely will as that's what you agreed to by purchasing the
product,

Wrong, legally.

Try it then takes uor desktop adn put it in the bath full of water, and if it stops working take it back under guarantee simple.


if you don't agree don't buy.

Anyone with even half a clue buys and knows they still have the warranty.

The warranty has rules attached.
Read the itunes T&Cs or MS T&Cs



Same with the places that try to claim that they have no legal liability
for anything you leave with them for repair etc. That is a lie too.

irrelivant.


It;'s similar to lifetime guarantees where the con is that you have to
have a reciept why ? If a product is faulty it goers back to the
manufacter for replacement NOT the store, as where you brought it
should
be irrelivant.

A warranty goes to the person who purchased it unless specifically
transferrable like with some cars. So proof you are the original
purchaser
isn't unreasonable. And sadly lifetime doesn't always mean what you might
think it does.

So lifetime warrently is that the life of the person buying teh product or
the
product itself I thought it wss the product itself rather than the
purchaser.

Not in the sense that one it has died, it has no warranty,

why would a lamp with a lifetime warranty die ?

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
They say lots of things. Just whether they would stand up in law is a
different matter.

It most likely will as that's what you agreed to by purchasing the
product, if you don't agree don't buy.

The law doesn't allow unfair conditions.


It;'s similar to lifetime guarantees where the con is that you have
to have a reciept why ? If a product is faulty it goers back to the
manufacter for replacement NOT the store, as where you brought it
should be irrelivant.

A warranty goes to the person who purchased it unless specifically
transferrable like with some cars. So proof you are the original
purchaser isn't unreasonable. And sadly lifetime doesn't always mean
what you might think it does.

So lifetime warrently is that the life of the person buying teh product
or the product itself I thought it wss the product itself rather than
the purchaser.

Lifetime is actually the life of anything until it dies. Which makes it a
very ambiguous warranty.

--
*How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Normally, the receipt is the proof of *when* as well as *where* the
device was bought.

Why does that matter ?

Suppose it had been stolen from the factory. Would you expect the maker to
honour any warranty on that?

--
*Okay, who stopped the payment on my reality check? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Friday, 2 December 2016 11:08:44 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Normally, the receipt is the proof of *when* as well as *where* the
device was bought.

Why does that matter ?

Suppose it had been stolen from the factory. Would you expect the maker to
honour any warranty on that?

If it can be proved to have been stolen then no.
What about the CFL light my energy supplier sent me for free ?

On Friday, 2 December 2016 11:08:44 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
They say lots of things. Just whether they would stand up in law is a
different matter.

It most likely will as that's what you agreed to by purchasing the
product, if you don't agree don't buy.

The law doesn't allow unfair conditions.

what do you mean by that ?
What happend with he VW compensation ?





Lifetime is actually the life of anything until it dies. Which makes it a
very ambiguous warranty.

Exactly. so why trust va lifetime warranty over a 1,000 hour or a 50,000 hour warranty.
Does the time start ticking when you leave the shop or when it gets delivered ?

On 02/12/2016 10:22, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 17:49:50 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 01/12/2016 17:06, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 11:33:43 UTC, charles wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 00:30:33 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
wrote:
On 30/11/16 18:00, charles wrote:
I have that problem in a shower room. To wire in permanently means
removing a factory fitted, moulded on plug. Doing that negates the
guarantee,


I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

Can't see why it would if the plug is correctly fitted.

Isnt it simialr to a sticker falling off saying "warrenty void if
removed". All it means is the company refused to guarentee something that
could have been '****ed' with and then put back together so it's not
noticable.

I;'m not saying they are right to claim this it';s just what they say.

It;'s similar to lifetime guarantees where the con is that you have to
have a reciept why ? If a product is faulty it goers back to the
manufacter for replacement NOT the store, as where you brought it should
be irrelivant.

If a product is faulty it goes back to the store from which you bought it.
You have no contract with the manufacturer.

A friend had a canon camecoder 500i that was sent back to canon under guarantee
NOT to the store.

That may well be the case in that situation.

However, the legal responsibility belongs to the merchant it was bought
from.

How does a merchant know how long any product will last ?

They don't exactly. They will however usually only put on sale a product
of "merchantable quality" since they know the buck will stop with them.
Obviously they weigh up their expected returns costs when deciding on
product lines to carry.

None of that means there is any automatic requirement for the
manufacturer to honour any guarantee with an end user that they did not
sell to, since they have no contract with them - implied or otherwise.

If a manufactuer guarantees a product for life then why should they merchant support it for life ?

They don't have to. The certainly need to offer the "normal" 1 year
warranty. Then there is a bit of a grey area as to whether they should
also offer more depending on a rather more woolly reasonable expected
life criteria, with a statute of limitations of six years. Legal
precedent would suggest they should, but they will also generally put up
resistance to anything over the year.

It's a con that you've fallen for as most people have to.

There is a fairly simple concept in law, that you can't bind a third
party to the terms of a contract that they have not signed and have not
even seen.

So for example, I can't enter into a contract with someone else that
makes you liable to send them a £50 gift voucher for Christmas.

If a manufacturer is going to promote a product as having a lifetime
guarantee, they will also have to come to an arrangement with the
retailers to provide cover for that, otherwise the retailer would be
reluctant to sell it.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 02/12/2016 10:22, whisky-dave wrote:

How does a merchant know how long any product will last ?

Here are a couple of reasonable summaries of the UK law:

For transactions before 1st Oct 2015 the Sale of Goods act would apply:

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-righ...e-of-goods-act

For ones after, the Consumer Rights Act:

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-righ...mer-rights-act

Note that both include words to the effect: "Your rights are against the
retailer (the company that sold you the product) not the manufacturer,
and so you must make any claim against the retailer."


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Friday, 2 December 2016 11:42:21 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/12/2016 10:22, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 17:49:50 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 01/12/2016 17:06, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 11:33:43 UTC, charles wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 00:30:33 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
wrote:
On 30/11/16 18:00, charles wrote:
I have that problem in a shower room. To wire in permanently means
removing a factory fitted, moulded on plug. Doing that negates the
guarantee,


I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

Can't see why it would if the plug is correctly fitted.

Isnt it simialr to a sticker falling off saying "warrenty void if
removed". All it means is the company refused to guarentee something that
could have been '****ed' with and then put back together so it's not
noticable.

I;'m not saying they are right to claim this it';s just what they say.

It;'s similar to lifetime guarantees where the con is that you have to
have a reciept why ? If a product is faulty it goers back to the
manufacter for replacement NOT the store, as where you brought it should
be irrelivant.

If a product is faulty it goes back to the store from which you bought it.
You have no contract with the manufacturer.

A friend had a canon camecoder 500i that was sent back to canon under guarantee
NOT to the store.

That may well be the case in that situation.

However, the legal responsibility belongs to the merchant it was bought
from.

How does a merchant know how long any product will last ?

They don't exactly.

No one knows exactly.

They will however usually only put on sale a product
of "merchantable quality" since they know the buck will stop with them.

That's how reputable merchants sell yes.

Obviously they weigh up their expected returns costs when deciding on
product lines to carry.

Obviously.
Places like currys sell extended warremties via 3rd party componies if a TV goes back to currys they send it on the the 3rd party company.


If a manufactuer guarantees a product for life then why should they merchant support it for life ?

They don't have to.

Exactly.

The certainly need to offer the "normal" 1 year
warranty.

depending on what they are selling of course.

Then there is a bit of a grey area as to whether they should
also offer more depending on a rather more woolly reasonable expected
life criteria, with a statute of limitations of six years. Legal
precedent would suggest they should, but they will also generally put up
resistance to anything over the year.

Yes Obviously.


It's a con that you've fallen for as most people have to.

There is a fairly simple concept in law, that you can't bind a third
party to the terms of a contract that they have not signed and have not
even seen.

Who's the 3rd party ?
And yuo still have to abide by the T&Cs of teh product and the comnpany which is why htye put teh viuod if removed stickers on things.


If a manufacturer is going to promote a product as having a lifetime
guarantee, they will also have to come to an arrangement with the
retailers to provide cover for that, otherwise the retailer would be
reluctant to sell it.

So why send a product back to apple via applecare when you can get PC woprld to sort it ?

On Friday, 2 December 2016 11:51:55 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/12/2016 10:22, whisky-dave wrote:

How does a merchant know how long any product will last ?

Here are a couple of reasonable summaries of the UK law:

For transactions before 1st Oct 2015 the Sale of Goods act would apply:

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-righ...e-of-goods-act

For ones after, the Consumer Rights Act:

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-righ...mer-rights-act

Note that both include words to the effect: "Your rights are against the
retailer (the company that sold you the product) not the manufacturer,
and so you must make any claim against the retailer."

and that's the con.
If yuor retailer is selling lifetime bulbs why does it matter when you brought them ?



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 2 December 2016 11:08:44 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Normally, the receipt is the proof of *when* as well as *where* the
device was bought.

Why does that matter ?

Suppose it had been stolen from the factory. Would you expect the
maker to honour any warranty on that?

If it can be proved to have been stolen then no.

Think it's up to you to prove it was bought legitimately. Normally, by a
receipt or registration.

What about the CFL light my energy supplier sent me for free ?

You expect a gift to have a warranty?

--
*Haunted French pancakes give me the crepes.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
It most likely will as that's what you agreed to by purchasing the
product, if you don't agree don't buy.

The law doesn't allow unfair conditions.

what do you mean by that ?

Not sure explaining further would help you understand.

What happend with he VW compensation ?

Which contract with the customer did VW breach?





Lifetime is actually the life of anything until it dies. Which makes
it a very ambiguous warranty.

Exactly. so why trust va lifetime warranty over a 1,000 hour or a 50,000
hour warranty. Does the time start ticking when you leave the shop or
when it gets delivered ?

From the date you purchase it.

BTW, how could you prove how many hours anything has been used?

--
*Why doesn't Tarzan have a beard? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Places like currys sell extended warremties via 3rd party componies if a
TV goes back to currys they send it on the the 3rd party company.

Really? Most of these extended warranties are operated by insurance
companies.

--
*Why don't sheep shrink when it rains?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 17:49:50 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 01/12/2016 17:06, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 11:33:43 UTC, charles wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 00:30:33 UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
wrote:
On 30/11/16 18:00, charles wrote:
I have that problem in a shower room. To wire in permanently
means
removing a factory fitted, moulded on plug. Doing that negates
the
guarantee,


I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

Can't see why it would if the plug is correctly fitted.

Isnt it simialr to a sticker falling off saying "warrenty void if
removed". All it means is the company refused to guarentee something
that
could have been '****ed' with and then put back together so it's not
noticable.

I;'m not saying they are right to claim this it';s just what they
say.

It;'s similar to lifetime guarantees where the con is that you have
to
have a reciept why ? If a product is faulty it goers back to the
manufacter for replacement NOT the store, as where you brought it
should
be irrelivant.

If a product is faulty it goes back to the store from which you bought
it.
You have no contract with the manufacturer.

A friend had a canon camecoder 500i that was sent back to canon under
guarantee
NOT to the store.

That may well be the case in that situation.

However, the legal responsibility belongs to the merchant it was bought
from.

How does a merchant know how long any product will last ?

They dont. They still have a legal obligation to repair or replace it
if it fails within a reasonable time for that particular type of item.

So laptop is expected to last rather longer than say a pair of flip flops.

None of that means there is any automatic requirement for the
manufacturer to honour any guarantee with an end user that they did not
sell to, since they have no contract with them - implied or otherwise.

If a manufactuer guarantees a product for life then why should they
merchant support it for life ?

Because when something is guaranteed for life by the manufacturer,
the merchant can claim off the manufacturer when they get a customer
returning a failed product that has a lifetime guarantee.

It's a con that you've fallen for

Nope.

as most people have to.

Wrong, as always.

whisky-dave wrote
Rod Speed wrote
whisky-dave wrote
Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Tim Watts wrote
charles wrote

I have that problem in a shower room. To wire in permanently
means
removing a factory fitted, moulded on plug. Doing that negates
the
guarantee,


I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

Can't see why it would if the plug is correctly fitted.

Isnt it simialr to a sticker falling off saying "warrenty void if
removed".

That has always been a lie. Removing that sticker
has no effect what so ever on your statutory rights.

Yes it does.

No it doesnt.

If you do NOT carry out teh manufactures instruction the warrenty is void.

Wrong with a sticker that is just a sticker saying that.

I dare you try it buy a hard drive remove the
sticker and send it back saying it doesn't work.

Done it plenty of times with desktop PC cases.

All it means is the company refused to guarentee something

They dont get to do that. The law says its guaranteed anyway.

Only if used properly or in accordence
with the manufauters statement of use.

Wrong, as always. If the manufacturer says that a can opener
must not be used to open cans and you open cans with it
and it stops opening cans later, legally you are entitled to
have the failed can opener repaired or replaced.

You can;t buy an aggke grinder then use it underwater and
then take it back to the shop and say well it's failed I used it
underwater and it stoped working so I want my money back.

Thats true even if the manufacturer doesnt say it cant
be used underwater, or doesnt say that you should not
throw it out of a car which is travelling at 100mph.

that could have been '****ed' with and
then put back together so it's not noticable.

That's their problem and is irrelevant to the law on that.

No it is not if yuo dis-obey the manufacturer .

Wrong when the manufacturer says that you will
void the warrantee when you do something that
is your right to do like take the sticker off a desktop
case that is across the cover for that desktop case.

I;'m not saying they are right to claim this it';s just what they say.

It;'s similar to lifetime guarantees where the
con is that you have to have a reciept why ?

To prove that you didnt steal it.

why does that matter if you are guenteeing the product ?

Because there is no legal obligation on the manufacturer
or the retailer to provide any warrantee to someone who
has stolen it.

And the receipt also shows when it was purchased and
that does show how long the individual has had it for which
matters with stated as opposed to statutory warrantys.

It might NOT be stolen but a birthday present.

You are free to keep the receipt and give it to the
person you gave the item to if they need to make
a warrantee claim.

If a product is faulty it goers back to the
manufacter for replacement OT the store,

That is just plain wrong legally too.

Depends on the product and the agreement.

Nope. Legally your rights are with the retailer, not
the manufacturer unless the manufacturer chooses
to allow you to deal with the manufacturer directly
with a warrantee claim.

And some jurisdictions go further than that and
say that if the retailer no longer exists, you have
the same warrantee rights with the manufacturer
or importer of the goods into the country.

I store has to sell a product that is fit for purpose.

Yes.

as where you brought it should be irrelivant.

Not when your rights are with the operation you bought it from.

It's not teh rights but the guarantee given,

Its the right to a guarantee that is being discussed.

which is where extended guarantees
come in they can be sold by anyone.

Not necessarily in the jurisdictions stupid enough to
allow manufacturers to only supply authorised resellers.

On 02/12/2016 12:22, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 2 December 2016 11:42:21 UTC, John Rumm wrote:

It's a con that you've fallen for as most people have to.

There is a fairly simple concept in law, that you can't bind a
third party to the terms of a contract that they have not signed
and have not even seen.

Who's the 3rd party ?

If you bought a Sony TV from Currys, then Sony would be a 3rd party.

And yuo still have to abide by the T&Cs of teh product and the
comnpany which is why htye put teh viuod if removed stickers on
things.

Huh?

If a manufacturer is going to promote a product as having a
lifetime guarantee, they will also have to come to an arrangement
with the retailers to provide cover for that, otherwise the
retailer would be reluctant to sell it.

So why send a product back to apple via applecare when you can get PC
woprld to sort it ?

Because PC world and apple will agree that apple will handle all returns
etc. Without that agreement the responsibility would remain with PC
world, and apple would be within their rights to tell you to go take a
hike.

(however apple don't work like that, and tend to dislike resellers and
distributors unless they add significant value)




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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On 02/12/2016 12:27, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 2 December 2016 11:51:55 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/12/2016 10:22, whisky-dave wrote:

How does a merchant know how long any product will last ?

Here are a couple of reasonable summaries of the UK law:

For transactions before 1st Oct 2015 the Sale of Goods act would apply:

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-righ...e-of-goods-act

For ones after, the Consumer Rights Act:

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-righ...mer-rights-act

Note that both include words to the effect: "Your rights are against the
retailer (the company that sold you the product) not the manufacturer,
and so you must make any claim against the retailer."

and that's the con.
If yuor retailer is selling lifetime bulbs why does it matter when you brought them ?

What is the definition of "lifetime"?


--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 02/12/16 21:55, John Rumm wrote:


What is the definition of "lifetime"?


It means 'it will last the whole lifetime of the product'


:-)


--
How fortunate for governments that the people they administer don't think.

Adolf Hitler

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 21:56:57 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 11:16:01 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 00:30:33 UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
On 30/11/16 18:00, charles wrote:
I have that problem in a shower room. To wire in permanently
means
removing a factory fitted, moulded on plug. Doing that
negates
the
guarantee,


I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

Can't see why it would if the plug is correctly fitted.

Isnt it simialr to a sticker falling off saying "warrenty void if
removed". All it means is the company refused to guarentee something
that could have been '****ed' with and then put back together so
it's
not noticable.

You can see if a plug has been replaced.

and some say if the sticker has been removed they
can tell especailly if you've lost or damaged it.
Haven't you noticed that it;s only the sticker they
are worried about not what you've done. This is
partucually true for hard drives is where I still notice
it most. So if I removed the sticker even without even
plugging in teh drive it's warrenty would be void NOT
because I've used it or not used it purely because the
sticker is removed.

Legally that is just plain wrong, particularly
with desktop systems and other appliances.

Doesn't matter

Yes it does.

it's misuse fo product

No its not with a desktop PC which is designed to
allow the owner to add and remove components.
That is the whole point of the desktop PC format.

and that invalidates the guarantee.

Wrong, as always.

I;'m not saying they are right to claim this it';s just what they say.

They say lots of things. Just whether they would stand up in law is a
different matter.

It most likely will as that's what you agreed to by purchasing the
product,

Wrong, legally.

Try it then

Been there, done that, the warranty claim succeeded.

if you don't agree don't buy.

Anyone with even half a clue buys and knows they still have the warranty.

The warranty has rules attached.

Not rules that override the countrys laws.

Read the itunes T&Cs or MS T&Cs

Which both say that the countrys laws are what matter.

Same with the places that try to claim that they have no legal liability
for anything you leave with them for repair etc. That is a lie too.

It;'s similar to lifetime guarantees where the con is that
you have to have a reciept why ? If a product is faulty
it goers back to the manufacter for replacement NOT
the store, as where you brought it should be irrelivant.

A warranty goes to the person who purchased it unless
specifically transferrable like with some cars. So proof you
are the original purchaser isn't unreasonable. And sadly
lifetime doesn't always mean what you might think it does.

So lifetime warrently is that the life of the person
buying teh product or the product itself I thought
it wss the product itself rather than the purchaser.

Not in the sense that once it has died, it has no warranty,

why would a lamp with a lifetime warranty die ?

Everything dies eventually even you, fortunately.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Friday, 2 December 2016 11:42:21 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/12/2016 10:22, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 17:49:50 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 01/12/2016 17:06, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 11:33:43 UTC, charles wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 00:30:33 UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
wrote:
On 30/11/16 18:00, charles wrote:
I have that problem in a shower room. To wire in permanently
means
removing a factory fitted, moulded on plug. Doing that negates
the
guarantee,


I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

Can't see why it would if the plug is correctly fitted.

Isnt it simialr to a sticker falling off saying "warrenty void if
removed". All it means is the company refused to guarentee
something that
could have been '****ed' with and then put back together so it's
not
noticable.

I;'m not saying they are right to claim this it';s just what they
say.

It;'s similar to lifetime guarantees where the con is that you have
to
have a reciept why ? If a product is faulty it goers back to the
manufacter for replacement NOT the store, as where you brought it
should
be irrelivant.

If a product is faulty it goes back to the store from which you
bought it.
You have no contract with the manufacturer.

A friend had a canon camecoder 500i that was sent back to canon under
guarantee
NOT to the store.

That may well be the case in that situation.

However, the legal responsibility belongs to the merchant it was
bought
from.

How does a merchant know how long any product will last ?

They don't exactly.

No one knows exactly.

They will however usually only put on sale a product
of "merchantable quality" since they know the buck will stop with them.

That's how reputable merchants sell yes.

Obviously they weigh up their expected returns costs when deciding on
product lines to carry.

Obviously.
Places like currys sell extended warremties via 3rd party componies if a
TV goes back to currys they send it on the the 3rd party company.


If a manufactuer guarantees a product for life then why should they
merchant support it for life ?

They don't have to.

Exactly.

The certainly need to offer the "normal" 1 year
warranty.

depending on what they are selling of course.

Then there is a bit of a grey area as to whether they should
also offer more depending on a rather more woolly reasonable expected
life criteria, with a statute of limitations of six years. Legal
precedent would suggest they should, but they will also generally put up
resistance to anything over the year.

Yes Obviously.


It's a con that you've fallen for as most people have to.

There is a fairly simple concept in law, that you can't bind a third
party to the terms of a contract that they have not signed and have not
even seen.

Who's the 3rd party ?

In this situation, the consumer who buys the product from a retailer.

And yuo still have to abide by the T&Cs of teh product

Not when they are contrary to local law you dont.

And you dont have to abide by anything in
the T&C that removes your legal rights either.

Microsoft claims that you can't use the MS OEM OS that comes
with the hardware you bought on any other hardware. That is
legally null and void and there is no legal reason why you can
not do that as long as you paid for the hardware and the software.

and the comnpany

You have not dealt with the manufacturer at all, regardless
of what they might or might not claim in their T&Cs.

which is why htye put teh viuod if removed stickers on things.

That is legally null and void when its on a desktop PC that has always
been explicitly designed so the owner can add and remove components.

Just as true of any retailer actually stupid enough to put a sticker like
that on a laptop if you just change the battery or add more memory etc.

If a manufacturer is going to promote a product as having
a lifetime guarantee, they will also have to come to an
arrangement with the retailers to provide cover for that,
otherwise the retailer would be reluctant to sell it.

So why send a product back to apple via applecare
when you can get PC woprld to sort it ?

Neither provide a lifetime guarantee of apple products.

It may be more convenient to have apple repair it under
applecare than to get PC world to send it back to Apple
and to have Apple send it to PC world again after its fixed.

And applecare is an extended warranty that you pay for too.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Friday, 2 December 2016 11:51:55 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/12/2016 10:22, whisky-dave wrote:

How does a merchant know how long any product will last ?

Here are a couple of reasonable summaries of the UK law:

For transactions before 1st Oct 2015 the Sale of Goods act would apply:

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-righ...e-of-goods-act

For ones after, the Consumer Rights Act:

http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-righ...mer-rights-act

Note that both include words to the effect: "Your rights are against the
retailer (the company that sold you the product) not the manufacturer,
and so you must make any claim against the retailer."

and that's the con.

Nope, that's the law.

If yuor retailer is selling lifetime bulbs why
does it matter when you brought them ?

Nothing to do with his last para.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
They say lots of things. Just whether they would stand up in law is a
different matter.

It most likely will as that's what you agreed to by purchasing the
product, if you don't agree don't buy.

The law doesn't allow unfair conditions.


It;'s similar to lifetime guarantees where the con is that you have
to have a reciept why ? If a product is faulty it goers back to the
manufacter for replacement NOT the store, as where you brought it
should be irrelivant.

A warranty goes to the person who purchased it unless specifically
transferrable like with some cars. So proof you are the original
purchaser isn't unreasonable. And sadly lifetime doesn't always mean
what you might think it does.

So lifetime warrently is that the life of the person buying teh product
or the product itself I thought it wss the product itself rather than
the purchaser.

Lifetime is actually the life of anything until it dies.

Wrong, with warranties.

Which makes it a very ambiguous warranty.

Nope. The only real downside with lifetime warranties is that they
are only enforceable while ever the manufacturer is still around.

On 04/12/16 06:33, grjw wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
They say lots of things. Just whether they would stand up in law is a
different matter.

It most likely will as that's what you agreed to by purchasing the
product, if you don't agree don't buy.

The law doesn't allow unfair conditions.


It;'s similar to lifetime guarantees where the con is that you have
to have a reciept why ? If a product is faulty it goers back to the
manufacter for replacement NOT the store, as where you brought it
should be irrelivant.

A warranty goes to the person who purchased it unless specifically
transferrable like with some cars. So proof you are the original
purchaser isn't unreasonable. And sadly lifetime doesn't always mean
what you might think it does.

So lifetime warrently is that the life of the person buying teh product
or the product itself I thought it wss the product itself rather than
the purchaser.

Lifetime is actually the life of anything until it dies.

Wrong, with warranties.

Which makes it a very ambiguous warranty.

Nope. The only real downside with lifetime warranties is that they
are only enforceable while ever the manufacturer is still around.

The term seems at least in the USA to be interpreted in many ways, none
of which are what one would expect 'lifetime' to mean. In the UK I can
find almost no reference to 'lifetime guarantee' as a legal term with a
precise meaning: I conclude it has no legal meaning.

--
No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
news
On 04/12/16 06:33, grjw wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
They say lots of things. Just whether they would stand up in law is a
different matter.

It most likely will as that's what you agreed to by purchasing the
product, if you don't agree don't buy.

The law doesn't allow unfair conditions.


It;'s similar to lifetime guarantees where the con is that you have
to have a reciept why ? If a product is faulty it goers back to the
manufacter for replacement NOT the store, as where you brought it
should be irrelivant.

A warranty goes to the person who purchased it unless specifically
transferrable like with some cars. So proof you are the original
purchaser isn't unreasonable. And sadly lifetime doesn't always mean
what you might think it does.

So lifetime warrently is that the life of the person buying teh product
or the product itself I thought it wss the product itself rather than
the purchaser.

Lifetime is actually the life of anything until it dies.

Wrong, with warranties.

Which makes it a very ambiguous warranty.

Nope. The only real downside with lifetime warranties is that they
are only enforceable while ever the manufacturer is still around.

The term seems at least in the USA to be interpreted in many ways,

Nope.

none of which are what one would expect 'lifetime' to mean.

More fool one.

In the UK I can find almost no reference to 'lifetime guarantee' as a
legal term with a precise meaning:

And that means that the normal interpretation of that term applies.

I conclude it has no legal meaning.

More fool you. It always does.

In article ,
grjw wrote:
Lifetime is actually the life of anything until it dies.

Wrong, with warranties.

Oh look. Wodney has found yet another name.

Which makes it a very ambiguous warranty.

--
*Wood burns faster when you have to cut and chop it yourself.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 30/11/2016 15:02, Chris Green wrote:
MrCheerful wrote:
On 30/11/2016 12:14, Eusebius wrote:
Can you put a mains socket in a cupboard inside a bathroom?

Would be handy for connecting my washing machine, which is in the bathroom.
Cupboard door is about 9" from basin, 3ft from toilet and 4'3" from bath.



The sockets are a legal no-no (I have some in mine, though) But

Surely 'legal' isn't the right word in this discussion. Something is
either according to the IEE wiring regulations or not. The
regulations aren't the law.

Wiring a socket in a bathroom within the allotted areas could get you
gaol time.

In that sense it is quite safe to say it is illegal, in much the same
way making a manoeuvre in a car that could lead to a death could also be
described as "illegal".

In fact I believe that you can wire to any EU standard (at least until
we leave the EU) and it would be 'legal'.

If you saw the wiring in other EU countries I really don't think so.

In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
Surely 'legal' isn't the right word in this discussion. Something is
either according to the IEE wiring regulations or not. The
regulations aren't the law.

Wiring a socket in a bathroom within the allotted areas could get you
gaol time.

Really?

--
*I brake for no apparent reason.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
Surely 'legal' isn't the right word in this discussion. Something is
either according to the IEE wiring regulations or not. The
regulations aren't the law.

Wiring a socket in a bathroom within the allotted areas could get you
gaol time.

Really?

if it results in someone's death, it might well.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 2 December 2016 11:08:44 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Normally, the receipt is the proof of *when* as well as *where* the
device was bought.

Why does that matter ?

Suppose it had been stolen from the factory. Would you expect the
maker to honour any warranty on that?

If it can be proved to have been stolen then no.

Think it's up to you to prove it was bought legitimately. Normally, by a
receipt or registration.

What about the CFL light my energy supplier sent me for free ?

You expect a gift to have a warranty?

Of course it does.

In article ,
John wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 2 December 2016 11:08:44 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Normally, the receipt is the proof of *when* as well as *where* the
device was bought.

Why does that matter ?

Suppose it had been stolen from the factory. Would you expect the
maker to honour any warranty on that?

If it can be proved to have been stolen then no.

Think it's up to you to prove it was bought legitimately. Normally, by a
receipt or registration.

What about the CFL light my energy supplier sent me for free ?

You expect a gift to have a warranty?

Of course it does.

Good luck with that.

--
*I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Friday, 2 December 2016 14:10:56 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 2 December 2016 11:08:44 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Normally, the receipt is the proof of *when* as well as *where* the
device was bought.

Why does that matter ?

Suppose it had been stolen from the factory. Would you expect the
maker to honour any warranty on that?

If it can be proved to have been stolen then no.

Think it's up to you to prove it was bought legitimately. Normally, by a
receipt or registration.

Yes that's thr problem isn't it, it;s the store that garentees the product ratherthan the manufactorer.


What about the CFL light my energy supplier sent me for free ?

You expect a gift to have a warranty?

Why not ?

On Friday, 2 December 2016 14:21:03 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Places like currys sell extended warremties via 3rd party componies if a
TV goes back to currys they send it on the the 3rd party company.

Really? Most of these extended warranties are operated by insurance
companies.

So insurance companies aren't 3rd party companies 1st party being the shop the 2nd the manufacter what's next ?

On Friday, 2 December 2016 17:51:38 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 17:49:50 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 01/12/2016 17:06, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 11:33:43 UTC, charles wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 1 December 2016 00:30:33 UTC, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:
In article , Tim Watts
wrote:
On 30/11/16 18:00, charles wrote:
I have that problem in a shower room. To wire in permanently
means
removing a factory fitted, moulded on plug. Doing that negates
the
guarantee,


I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

Can't see why it would if the plug is correctly fitted.

Isnt it simialr to a sticker falling off saying "warrenty void if
removed". All it means is the company refused to guarentee something
that
could have been '****ed' with and then put back together so it's not
noticable.

I;'m not saying they are right to claim this it';s just what they
say.

It;'s similar to lifetime guarantees where the con is that you have
to
have a reciept why ? If a product is faulty it goers back to the
manufacter for replacement NOT the store, as where you brought it
should
be irrelivant.

If a product is faulty it goes back to the store from which you bought
it.
You have no contract with the manufacturer.

A friend had a canon camecoder 500i that was sent back to canon under
guarantee
NOT to the store.

That may well be the case in that situation.

However, the legal responsibility belongs to the merchant it was bought
from.

How does a merchant know how long any product will last ?

They dont.

They do have some idea.


They still have a legal obligation to repair or replace it
if it fails within a reasonable time for that particular type of item.

And who sets that time ?


So laptop is expected to last rather longer than say a pair of flip flops..

So flip flops don;t have a warrenty is that it ?


If a manufactuer guarantees a product for life then why should they
merchant support it for life ?

Because when something is guaranteed for life by the manufacturer,
the merchant can claim off the manufacturer when they get a customer
returning a failed product that has a lifetime guarantee.

So which products have a lifetime guarantee ?


It's a con that you've fallen for

Nope.

as most people have to.

Wrong, as always.

On Friday, 2 December 2016 21:54:11 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/12/2016 12:22, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 2 December 2016 11:42:21 UTC, John Rumm wrote:

It's a con that you've fallen for as most people have to.

There is a fairly simple concept in law, that you can't bind a
third party to the terms of a contract that they have not signed
and have not even seen.

Who's the 3rd party ?

If you bought a Sony TV from Currys, then Sony would be a 3rd party.

No they wouldn't


So why send a product back to apple via applecare when you can get PC
woprld to sort it ?

Because PC world and apple will agree that apple will handle all returns
etc. Without that agreement the responsibility would remain with PC
world, and apple would be within their rights to tell you to go take a
hike.

(however apple don't work like that, and tend to dislike resellers and
distributors unless they add significant value)

yuo can buty applecare cheaper than apple sells it.
You can go to anothe rcompany to buy applecare and teh computer is still covered by apple.

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 2 December 2016 14:21:03 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
Places like currys sell extended warremties via 3rd party componies
if a TV goes back to currys they send it on the the 3rd party
company.

Really? Most of these extended warranties are operated by insurance
companies.

So insurance companies aren't 3rd party companies 1st party being the
shop the 2nd the manufacter what's next ?

You think insurance companies actually repair faulty TVs?

--
*Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 05/12/2016 11:05, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 2 December 2016 21:54:11 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/12/2016 12:22, whisky-dave wrote:
On Friday, 2 December 2016 11:42:21 UTC, John Rumm wrote:

It's a con that you've fallen for as most people have to.

There is a fairly simple concept in law, that you can't bind a
third party to the terms of a contract that they have not signed
and have not even seen.

Who's the 3rd party ?

If you bought a Sony TV from Currys, then Sony would be a 3rd party.

No they wouldn't

What else could they be?

You are not Sony, and Currys are not Sony. The only contract that would
be created is between you and Currys, so Sony would not be a party to
the contract.

So why send a product back to apple via applecare when you can get PC
woprld to sort it ?

Because PC world and apple will agree that apple will handle all returns
etc. Without that agreement the responsibility would remain with PC
world, and apple would be within their rights to tell you to go take a
hike.

(however apple don't work like that, and tend to dislike resellers and
distributors unless they add significant value)

yuo can buty applecare cheaper than apple sells it.
You can go to anothe rcompany to buy applecare and teh computer is still covered by apple.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 05/12/16 11:21, John Rumm wrote:
You are not Sony, and Currys are not Sony. The only contract that would
be created is between you and Currys, so Sony would not be a party to
the contract.

Manufacturers warranties are a a direct contract between customer and
manufacturer.



Buying a piece of goods may not involve just a contract with the actual
vendor.

--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx