There's a big gap where my hot water cylindar used to be. There's an FCU
in the kitchen for the old immersion heater (rated 16A) at the consumer
unit. Would it be reasonable safe or wise to fit an electrical socket in
the airing cupboard where the connection exists for the old immersion?

In article ,
Dougie Nisbet wrote:
There's a big gap where my hot water cylindar used to be. There's an FCU
in the kitchen for the old immersion heater (rated 16A) at the consumer
unit. Would it be reasonable safe or wise to fit an electrical socket in
the airing cupboard where the connection exists for the old immersion?

Assuming the cupboard doesn't come under other regs - like perhaps in a
bathroom - it's ok. You appear to state it's basically a radial circuit
direct from the CU with its own breaker so you could remove the FCU.

--
*A fool and his money can throw one hell of a party.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Dougie Nisbet wrote:
There's a big gap where my hot water cylindar used to be. There's an FCU
in the kitchen for the old immersion heater (rated 16A) at the consumer
unit. Would it be reasonable safe or wise to fit an electrical socket in
the airing cupboard where the connection exists for the old immersion?

Assuming the cupboard doesn't come under other regs - like perhaps in a
bathroom - it's ok. You appear to state it's basically a radial circuit
direct from the CU with its own breaker so you could remove the FCU.

It's a cupboard of the corridor so it sounds ok. It does have it's own
FCU in the kitchen and I was just going to leave it as is since it would
probably be more of a hassle to remove it. The consumer unit has a MCB
rated 16A for it.

I still have a concern regarding another connection in the airing
cupboard. It used to connect to the cylindar thermostat and according to
my wavy wand that tells me if something's live it appears to have a
mains connection. So I've still got a bit more research to do to trace
that. Perhaps it's on the same circuit as the old immersion. Oh well,
time to shut the PC down and start switching of MCBs...

Dougie Nisbet wrote:

There's a big gap where my hot water cylindar used to be. There's an FCU
in the kitchen for the old immersion heater (rated 16A) at the consumer
unit. Would it be reasonable safe or wise to fit an electrical socket in
the airing cupboard where the connection exists for the old immersion?


If you are still using it as an airing cupboard, you could use the
power supply to fit a low power tubular heater which works wonders for
airing clothes. Don't forget to buy the protective cage shown in the
small pictu

http://tinyurl.com/5floyx

Dougie Nisbet wrote:
Would it be reasonable safe or wise to fit an electrical socket in
the airing cupboard where the connection exists for the old immersion?

It's not considered good practice to fit sockets in airing cupboards.
The max. rated ambient temperature for BS 1363 (13 A) plugs and sockets
is 30 deg. C and airing cupboards can get hotter than that.

What would the socket be used for though? If it's only for some
specific light-current application like the tubular heater(s) mentioned
then I wouldn't worry too much, although using a fused connection unit
is still preferable.

--
Andy

In article ,
Andy Wade wrote:
Would it be reasonable safe or wise to fit an electrical socket in
the airing cupboard where the connection exists for the old immersion?

It's not considered good practice to fit sockets in airing cupboards.
The max. rated ambient temperature for BS 1363 (13 A) plugs and sockets
is 30 deg. C and airing cupboards can get hotter than that.

Thought it was an airing cupboard as was - not anymore with the removal of
the storage cylinder?

--
*Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Dougie Nisbet wrote:
still have a concern regarding another connection in the airing
cupboard. It used to connect to the cylindar thermostat and according to
my wavy wand that tells me if something's live it appears to have a
mains connection. So I've still got a bit more research to do to trace
that. Perhaps it's on the same circuit as the old immersion. Oh well,
time to shut the PC down and start switching of MCBs...

It would have been fed off the boiler supply - but should have been
disconnected when (presumably) your combi was fitted. Sounds like typical
plumber's botched wiring.

--
*Sometimes I wake up grumpy; Other times I let him sleep.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andy Wade wrote:
Would it be reasonable safe or wise to fit an electrical socket in
the airing cupboard where the connection exists for the old immersion?

It's not considered good practice to fit sockets in airing cupboards.
The max. rated ambient temperature for BS 1363 (13 A) plugs and sockets
is 30 deg. C and airing cupboards can get hotter than that.

Thought it was an airing cupboard as was - not anymore with the removal of
the storage cylinder?


correct. But I do like the idea of the cylinder heater. That's kinda
along the lines I was thinking of anyway, but using a low oil heater on
its frost protection setting. But getting a dedicated tubular heater as
Bruce mentioned is a far more elegant solution.

Dougie Nisbet wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andy Wade wrote:
Would it be reasonable safe or wise to fit an electrical socket in
the airing cupboard where the connection exists for the old immersion?

It's not considered good practice to fit sockets in airing cupboards.
The max. rated ambient temperature for BS 1363 (13 A) plugs and
sockets is 30 deg. C and airing cupboards can get hotter than that.

Thought it was an airing cupboard as was - not anymore with the
removal of
the storage cylinder?


correct. But I do like the idea of the cylinder heater. That's kinda
along the lines I was thinking of anyway, but using a low oil heater on
its frost protection setting. But getting a dedicated tubular heater as
Bruce mentioned is a far more elegant solution.

We used one of those for the airing cupboard in the previous house -
seemed to do the job nicely. You can go for a slight posher solution and
connect one via a suitable mechanical room stat - that way you only need
to heat the cupboard to "hot enough".

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
Dougie Nisbet wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andy Wade wrote:
Would it be reasonable safe or wise to fit an electrical socket in
the airing cupboard where the connection exists for the old
immersion?

It's not considered good practice to fit sockets in airing cupboards.
The max. rated ambient temperature for BS 1363 (13 A) plugs and
sockets is 30 deg. C and airing cupboards can get hotter than that.

Thought it was an airing cupboard as was - not anymore with the
removal of the storage cylinder?


correct. But I do like the idea of the cylinder heater. That's kinda
along the lines I was thinking of anyway, but using a low oil heater on
its frost protection setting. But getting a dedicated tubular heater as
Bruce mentioned is a far more elegant solution.

I wonder if the running costs of that negates any fuel savings a combi
might bring - let alone the inconvenience?

--
*Suicidal twin kills sister by mistake.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Andy Wade wrote:
Dougie Nisbet wrote:
Would it be reasonable safe or wise to fit an electrical socket in the
airing cupboard where the connection exists for the old immersion?

It's not considered good practice to fit sockets in airing cupboards.
The max. rated ambient temperature for BS 1363 (13 A) plugs and sockets
is 30 deg. C and airing cupboards can get hotter than that.

What would the socket be used for though? If it's only for some
specific light-current application like the tubular heater(s) mentioned
then I wouldn't worry too much, although using a fused connection unit
is still preferable.

Not quite getting this. We get 30 C quite regulalrly in summer. Well,
some summers. And we surely must see temperatures even higher in rooms
with high insolation levels.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article ,
Dougie Nisbet wrote:
correct. But I do like the idea of the cylinder heater. That's kinda
along the lines I was thinking of anyway, but using a low oil heater on
its frost protection setting. But getting a dedicated tubular heater as
Bruce mentioned is a far more elegant solution.

I wonder if the running costs of that negates any fuel savings a combi
might bring - let alone the inconvenience?


It's only 60 watts. I put ours on the immersion heater timer so it
was on for only 3 hours a day. That was enough.

Rod wrote:

Not quite getting this. We get 30 C quite regulalrly in summer. Well,
some summers. And we surely must see temperatures even higher in rooms
with high insolation levels.

Ah, OK. I've just checked the current (1995) versions of BS 1363 and it
now gives an ambient temp range of -5 to +40 deg. "with the average over
a 24 h period not exceeding 25 deg."

The 30 deg. limit must have been in older versions. In any case the
advice not to use plug & socket connections in airing cupboards mainly
relates to the connection of 3 kW immersion heaters - where you have the
combination of sustained full load and high ambient temp. - and is still
good advice, IMHO.

I'd say summer room temperatures exceeding 30 deg. are still pretty rare
actually (lofts excepted), and when they do occur you're not likely to
be using electric heating. Kitchen loads like washing m/c heaters are
of fairly short duration, and don't cause too much worry, provided the
terminal screws and fuse clips are tight. A 13 amp plug fuse dissipates
very close to one watt at its full rated current.

--
Andy

Andy Wade wrote:
Rod wrote:

Not quite getting this. We get 30 C quite regulalrly in summer. Well,
some summers. And we surely must see temperatures even higher in rooms
with high insolation levels.

Ah, OK. I've just checked the current (1995) versions of BS 1363 and it
now gives an ambient temp range of -5 to +40 deg. "with the average over
a 24 h period not exceeding 25 deg."

The 30 deg. limit must have been in older versions. In any case the
advice not to use plug & socket connections in airing cupboards mainly
relates to the connection of 3 kW immersion heaters - where you have the
combination of sustained full load and high ambient temp. - and is still
good advice, IMHO.

I'd say summer room temperatures exceeding 30 deg. are still pretty rare
actually (lofts excepted), and when they do occur you're not likely to
be using electric heating. Kitchen loads like washing m/c heaters are
of fairly short duration, and don't cause too much worry, provided the
terminal screws and fuse clips are tight. A 13 amp plug fuse dissipates
very close to one watt at its full rated current.

Thanks - makes much more sense with a bit more info.

(BTW we did get 10 days on the trot of 30 or over - back in one of
2003/4/5. Anyone remember that?)

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Dougie Nisbet wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andy Wade wrote:
Would it be reasonable safe or wise to fit an electrical socket in
the airing cupboard where the connection exists for the old
immersion?
It's not considered good practice to fit sockets in airing cupboards.
The max. rated ambient temperature for BS 1363 (13 A) plugs and
sockets is 30 deg. C and airing cupboards can get hotter than that.
Thought it was an airing cupboard as was - not anymore with the
removal of the storage cylinder?


correct. But I do like the idea of the cylinder heater. That's kinda
along the lines I was thinking of anyway, but using a low oil heater on
its frost protection setting. But getting a dedicated tubular heater as
Bruce mentioned is a far more elegant solution.

I wonder if the running costs of that negates any fuel savings a combi
might bring - let alone the inconvenience?


Having a condensing boiler has made a huge difference in convenience and
saving. The old system was a relic and it wasn't possible to have the CH
on without HW. I take your point about the airing cupboard costs but on
my balance sheet it is simply down as 'nice to have' and it's
interesting to consider the possibilities. I suspect leaving the
(sliding) doors of the airing cupboard open might have a similar (and
cheaper) effect to putting a low wattage heater in there. I'm not even
sure there is any great benefit to having a heated airing cupboard at all.

In article ,
Dougie Nisbet wrote:
correct. But I do like the idea of the cylinder heater. That's kinda
along the lines I was thinking of anyway, but using a low oil heater
on its frost protection setting. But getting a dedicated tubular
heater as Bruce mentioned is a far more elegant solution.

I wonder if the running costs of that negates any fuel savings a combi
might bring - let alone the inconvenience?


Having a condensing boiler has made a huge difference in convenience and
saving. The old system was a relic and it wasn't possible to have the CH
on without HW.

Neither of those means you have to get rid of the storage system and go to
a combi. I've recently replaced my boiler with a condensing one and kept
the storage system and therefore airing cupboard. But plenty of plumbers
will tell you this isn't possible - and plenty seem to think condensing
means combi.

I take your point about the airing cupboard costs but on my balance
sheet it is simply down as 'nice to have' and it's interesting to
consider the possibilities. I suspect leaving the (sliding) doors of
the airing cupboard open might have a similar (and cheaper) effect to
putting a low wattage heater in there. I'm not even sure there is any
great benefit to having a heated airing cupboard at all.

Could be - mine is in the bathroom and therefore a good place to keep
clean and crisp towels. ;-)

--
*Geeks shall inherit the earth *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Rod writes:

(BTW we did get 10 days on the trot of 30 or over - back in one of
2003/4/5. Anyone remember that?)

Checking my records I have from an outdoor sensor (in the shade)
going back to November 2003, there's only one record of = 30C...

Jul 19 2006 15:45:43 Temperature - Outside 30.0

Could have been Summer 2003, which predates my logs.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Rod writes:
(BTW we did get 10 days on the trot of 30 or over - back in one of
2003/4/5. Anyone remember that?)

Checking my records I have from an outdoor sensor (in the shade)
going back to November 2003, there's only one record of = 30C...

Jul 19 2006 15:45:43 Temperature - Outside 30.0

Could have been Summer 2003, which predates my logs.

I had actually just visited the met office and read that bit of
temperature history - but had closed the page and didn't think it worth
scrabbling back to check the year.

I too have an outdoor sensor - three actually. Nothing fancy (Oregon).
All in shade (not proper screens just convenient places). One was at
29.6 just the other day - before the latest batch of wind and rain. But
I know the sensors do vary among themselves so don't put much weight on
the absolute readings.

Just found this - which makes you look right about 2003:

August 2003 - Hot spell

[skipped lots]

Hot spells, with consecutive maximum temperatures over 30 °C

During the long hot summer of 1976, temperatures exceeded 32 °C (90 °F),
somewhere in the UK, on 15 consecutive days starting on 23 June. This
year, 32 °C was exceeded on three consecutive days between 4 and 6
August and then on five consecutive days between 8 and 12 August,
somewhere in the UK (temperatures failed to reach 32 °C at any of the
real-time stations on 7 August).

During the summer of 1976, Heathrow had 16 consecutive days over 30 °C
from 23 June to 8 July (their highest number of of consecutive days
above 30 °C). This year, Heathrow managed three consecutive days above
30 °C between 4 and 6 August 2003, and five consecutive days between 8
and 12 August 2003.

During the summer of 1976, Enfield had six consecutive days over 30 °C
from 23 June to 28 June, and sevon consecutive days between 2 July and 8
July. This year, Enfield has had ten consecutive maximum temperatures
over 30 °C from 3 to 12 August 2003 (their highest number of of
consecutive days above 30 °C, using patchy digital records back to 1960's).

During the summer of 1976, Wisley had six consecutive days over 30 °C
from 23 June to 28 June, and eight consecutive days between 1 July and 8
July. This year, Wisley has had ten consecutive maximum temperatures
over 30 °C from 3 to 12 August 2003 (their highest number of of
consecutive days above 30 °C, using digital records back to 1959).

During the summer of 1976, St. James Park had six consecutive days over
30 °C from 23 June to 28 June, and seven consecutive days between 2 July
and 8 July. This year, St. James Park has had nine consecutive maximum
temperatures over 30 °C from 4 to 12 August 2003 (their highest number
of consecutive days above 30 °C, using digital records back to 1959).

During the summer of 1976, East Malling had six consecutive days over 30
°C from 23 June to 28 June.
This year, East Malling has had nine consecutive maximum temperatures
over 30 °C from 4 to 12 August 2003 (their highest number of consecutive
days above 30 °C, using digital records back to 1959).

http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/interesting/aug03maxtemps.html

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org