Disastrous for UK economy if we leave the EUSSR???????????????

Britain lost its ship building industry while in the EU
Britain lost its aircraft industry while in the EU
Britain lost its textile industry while in the EU
Britain lost its rail rolling stock industry while in the EU
Britain lost its articulated truck industry while in the EU
Britain lost most of its car industry while in the EU
Britain lost its coal industry while in the EU
Britain lost its steel industry while in the EU

And these REMAIN pillocks are still saying...

€œDont leave! You will risk losing our industries!€�

harry wrote

Disastrous for UK economy if we leave the EUSSR???????????????

Britain lost its ship building industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything
to do with South Korea getting its act into gear
on ship building and leaving you lot for dead.

There is still shipbuilding in the EU too.

Britain lost its aircraft industry while in the EU

More of your lies. Britain had enough of a clue to get
involved with Airbus and it leaves what aircraft industry
Britain had for dead. And that was possible due to the EU.

Britain lost its textile industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything
to do with the textile industry moving to much
lower labour cost countrys like Bangladesh etc.

Britain lost its rail rolling stock industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU. France does
in fact do fine in that area and outside the EU too.

Britain lost its articulated truck industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything to
do with Britain being completely ****ing hopeless
at artics. Plenty of others in the EU do fine in that area.

Britain lost most of its car industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything to do with
Britain being completely ****ing hopeless at car manufacturing.
Plenty of others in the EU do fine in that area.

Britain lost its coal industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything
to do with the fact that coal mining was never
going to be viable in Britain anymore and that
was true LONG before the EU showed up.

Britain lost its steel industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything
to do with the fact that the steel industry was never
going to be viable in Britain once China got its act
into gear on that.

And none of that **** will return if Britain leaves the EU.

And these REMAIN pillocks are still saying...

€œDont leave! You will risk losing our industries!€�

That is true of what remains of the car industry.
The rest of the world gave up on British cars
LONG ago now. Only the EU is a viable market
for what **** is still produced in Britain.

On 12-Jun-16 7:13 AM, harry wrote:
Disastrous for UK economy if we leave the EUSSR???????????????

Britain lost its ship building industry while in the EU

The roots of that go a lot further back. The Upper Clyde Shipbuilders
consortium, 1968-1971, was a failed attempt to compete overseas
shipyards. One problem for the Clydebank being that the Clyde simply
isn't wide enough to launch the largest modern ships.

Britain lost its aircraft industry while in the EU

According to 2015 government figures, we have a 17% share in the global
aerospace market, making our aerospace industry the largest in Europe
and second only to the USA worldwide. Aerospace is our eighth most
important export.

Britain lost its textile industry while in the EU

Which has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with cheap
labour costs in third world countries.

Britain lost its rail rolling stock industry while in the EU

That is an industry with very low profit margins - the most successful
achieving 3-7%. We just couldn't compete in the field, but that has
nothing to do with the EU.

Britain lost its articulated truck industry while in the EU

Again, we were not competitive.

Britain lost most of its car industry while in the EU

Vehicles are our fourth most important export, representing 9.2% of all
exports.

Britain lost its coal industry while in the EU

In the 1960s it was already cheaper to ship coal from Australia than to
dig out of the ground in the UK. Once the UK government decided that it
would stop subsidising coal, its days were numbered. Again, nothing to
do with the EU.

Britain lost its steel industry while in the EU

Blame the Chinese for that. However, the British government hasn't
helped by blocking attempts by other EU countries to bring in higher
tariffs on Chinese steel.

And these REMAIN pillocks are still saying...

€œDont leave! You will risk losing our industries!€�

We still have many, just not some of those you have chosen to highlight.
We are major manufacturers of machinery, pharmaceuticals, electronic
equipment, chemicals and plastics, among others.


--
--

Colin Bignell

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 09:44:20 +0100, Nightjar wrote:

Britain lost its textile industry while in the EU

Which has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with cheap
labour costs in third world countries.

And this really does sum up the logic of much of the brexit campaign. "We
were big and important before we joined the EU, so it must be the EU's
fault".

Umm, no. The entire world has changed. Globalisation has happened. What
used to be really minor bit-players are now major world powers. That's
nothing to do with the EU.

Our membership of the EU has, arguably, helped to protect us from faring
even worse.

Britain lost its coal industry while in the EU

In the 1960s it was already cheaper to ship coal from Australia than to
dig out of the ground in the UK. Once the UK government decided that it
would stop subsidising coal, its days were numbered. Again, nothing to
do with the EU.

And this is the exact same reality as the "Thatcher killed mining!"
argument forgets.

Coal mining jobs in the UK over time :-
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/
UK_Coal_Mining_Jobs.png

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
harry wrote

Disastrous for UK economy if we leave the EUSSR???????????????

Britain lost its ship building industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything
to do with South Korea getting its act into gear
on ship building and leaving you lot for dead.

There is still shipbuilding in the EU too.

Britain lost its aircraft industry while in the EU

More of your lies. Britain had enough of a clue to get
involved with Airbus and it leaves what aircraft industry
Britain had for dead. And that was possible due to the EU.

Britain lost its textile industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything
to do with the textile industry moving to much
lower labour cost countrys like Bangladesh etc.

Britain lost its rail rolling stock industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU.

Actually that one is.

We are the only major European country that plays by the rules when
tendering rail contracts which have almost all been won by other European
companies and our national industry has all but collapsed because of it

Other EU country game the rules to make sure that their home company wins
bids for local work and hence keep the business afloat

France does
in fact do fine in that area and outside the EU too.

Britain lost its articulated truck industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything to
do with Britain being completely ****ing hopeless
at artics. Plenty of others in the EU do fine in that area.

Britain lost most of its car industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything to do with
Britain being completely ****ing hopeless at car manufacturing.
Plenty of others in the EU do fine in that area.

Actually so do we

just not with historic UK badges on the front,.


Britain lost its coal industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything
to do with the fact that coal mining was never
going to be viable in Britain anymore and that
was true LONG before the EU showed up.

Decline was enhanced by the EU rules about "polluting" fuels which we have
enacted with gusto. Other EU countries have been far slower to do this

tim

"tim..." wrote in message
...

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
harry wrote

Disastrous for UK economy if we leave the EUSSR???????????????

Britain lost its ship building industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything
to do with South Korea getting its act into gear
on ship building and leaving you lot for dead.

There is still shipbuilding in the EU too.

Britain lost its aircraft industry while in the EU

More of your lies. Britain had enough of a clue to get
involved with Airbus and it leaves what aircraft industry
Britain had for dead. And that was possible due to the EU.

Britain lost its textile industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything
to do with the textile industry moving to much
lower labour cost countrys like Bangladesh etc.

Britain lost its rail rolling stock industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU.

Actually that one is.

Nope.

We are the only major European country that plays by the rules when
tendering rail contracts

Bull****.

which have almost all been won by other European companies

Because what they offered was much better.

and our national industry has all but collapsed because of it

Nope, because they didnt offer anything of any value.

Other EU country game the rules to make sure that their home company wins
bids for local work and hence keep the business afloat

Have fun explaining why the frogs particularly
have done so well outside their own country.

France does in fact do fine in that area and outside the EU too.

Britain lost its articulated truck industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything to
do with Britain being completely ****ing hopeless
at artics. Plenty of others in the EU do fine in that area.

Britain lost most of its car industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything to do with Britain being
completely ****ing hopeless at car manufacturing.
Plenty of others in the EU do fine in that area.

Actually so do we

Nope, dont get within a bulls roar of what the krauts do.

just not with historic UK badges on the front,.

Not without those either.

Britain lost its coal industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything
to do with the fact that coal mining was never
going to be viable in Britain anymore and that
was true LONG before the EU showed up.

Decline was enhanced by the EU rules about "polluting" fuels which we have
enacted with gusto.

The British coal industry was long gone before any of that.

Other EU countries have been far slower to do this

Irrelevant to what sank the British coal industry.

On 12/06/2016 09:49, Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 09:44:20 +0100, Nightjar wrote:

Britain lost its textile industry while in the EU

Which has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with cheap
labour costs in third world countries.

And this really does sum up the logic of much of the brexit campaign. "We
were big and important before we joined the EU, so it must be the EU's
fault".

The entire brexit campaign is based on speculation and lies, it has been
from the start.

You cannot believe anything they say as they have nothing to base their
assumptions on.

Most of them want out for emotional reasons and will believe anything
negative anyone says about the EU because that supports their emotions.
They will not believe anything positive about remaining because that
goes against their emotions so any argument is a waste of effort. The
best you can do is influence the undecided who may actually think about
it unlike harry and friends.

In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
And these REMAIN pillocks are still saying...

”Don‘t leave! You will risk losing our industries!•

We still have many, just not some of those you have chosen to highlight.
We are major manufacturers of machinery, pharmaceuticals, electronic
equipment, chemicals and plastics, among others.

Harry doesn't understand the differenve between efficient UK industries
etc which already do well within the EU, and those long since dead.

So instead of wallowing in past glory, he needs to ask himself what effect
leaving might have on those currently successful industries. And equally,
on the financial sector, which is far more important to the UK than
manufacturing.

--
*Why do they put Braille on the drive-through bank machines?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 10:41:03 +0100, tim... wrote:

Britain lost its rail rolling stock industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU.

Actually that one is.

We are the only major European country that plays by the rules when
tendering rail contracts which have almost all been won by other
European companies and our national industry has all but collapsed
because of it

Other EU country game the rules to make sure that their home company
wins bids for local work and hence keep the business afloat

So, basically, it's nothing to do with the EU, and everything to do with
how the UK government interprets "the rules"?

Britain lost most of its car industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything to do with Britain being
completely ****ing hopeless at car manufacturing.
Plenty of others in the EU do fine in that area.

Actually so do we

just not with historic UK badges on the front,.

The motor industry, at least as far as British ownership goes, was
already pretty much dead and buried YEARS before the UK even joined the
EC.

Vauxhall was 100% owned by GM from 1925.

Ford of Britain was never anything but majority owned by Ford US and by
1961 was 100% US owned. Ford gradually "rationalised" their European
operations through the 1960s, and Ford Europe merged Ford of Britain into
Ford Germany in 1967, based in Cologne.

Rootes Group was fully owned by Chrysler from 1967, before being sold to
PSA Peugeot Citroen in 1978.

BL is a long saga of wolves being beaten from doors - from Morris/Austin/
Jaguar/Pressed Steel being pushed by the government to merging, as
British Motor Holdings, in 1966 - before merger with Leyland Vehicles to
form BLMC in 1968, turning into BL with nationalisation in 1975, then
sale to BAe in 1984. The Honda tie-up was touted as being the saviour as
far back as the late '70s, with the Honda Ballade being rebadged as the
Triumph Acclaim in 1981, Jaguar was sold to Ford in 1984, the commercial
vehicles were sold to DAF in 1987, and BAe sold the rest to BMW in 1994.

So, when the UK joined the EC in 1975, three of the "big four" were US
owned, while the fourth was being nationalised in yet another attempt to
stop it going tits. UK car production was below 1m cars by 1980. In 2015,
it was nearly 1.6m. In the next year or two, it's forecast to be the
highest ever figure.

In article ,
tim... wrote:
We are the only major European country that plays by the rules when
tendering rail contracts which have almost all been won by other
European companies and our national industry has all but collapsed
because of it

Other EU country game the rules to make sure that their home company
wins bids for local work and hence keep the business afloat

Right. Does the EU moves the goalposts for the UK when it comes to bidding?

Or is it the UK is incompetent at interpreting EU legislation?

If the latter, how would leaving help that? We'd still need to meet EU
regs when exporting to them.

--
*Time is the best teacher; unfortunately it kills all its students.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 11:17:30 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

And this really does sum up the logic of much of the brexit campaign.
"We were big and important before we joined the EU, so it must be the
EU's fault".

The entire brexit campaign is based on speculation and lies, it has been
from the start.

Of course.

You cannot believe anything they say as they have nothing to base their
assumptions on.

Most of them want out for emotional reasons and will believe anything
negative anyone says about the EU because that supports their emotions.
They will not believe anything positive about remaining because that
goes against their emotions so any argument is a waste of effort. The
best you can do is influence the undecided who may actually think about
it unlike harry and friends.

TBH, giving Harry, TurNiP, Capitol and the like the oxygen of publicity
is probably one of the Remain camp's strongest tactics.

Waste of time arguing with him, he believes what he believes.

I'm not so sure about Steel, though I do believe that we need to look at
where the holes in the market are on this one and do stuff better or cheaper
where we can. Besides, many countries do tend to dump things to weaken the
home producers, seems to be a common thing. The Americans seem to have used
trade tariffs to redress the balance. The other items you mention who
compete from a less well paid country with poorer helth and safety do
wrankle a lot with people but as you say has sod all to do with the EU.

Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
harry wrote

Disastrous for UK economy if we leave the EUSSR???????????????

Britain lost its ship building industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything
to do with South Korea getting its act into gear
on ship building and leaving you lot for dead.

There is still shipbuilding in the EU too.

Britain lost its aircraft industry while in the EU

More of your lies. Britain had enough of a clue to get
involved with Airbus and it leaves what aircraft industry
Britain had for dead. And that was possible due to the EU.

Britain lost its textile industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything
to do with the textile industry moving to much
lower labour cost countrys like Bangladesh etc.

Britain lost its rail rolling stock industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU. France does
in fact do fine in that area and outside the EU too.

Britain lost its articulated truck industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything to
do with Britain being completely ****ing hopeless
at artics. Plenty of others in the EU do fine in that area.

Britain lost most of its car industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything to do with
Britain being completely ****ing hopeless at car manufacturing.
Plenty of others in the EU do fine in that area.

Britain lost its coal industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything
to do with the fact that coal mining was never
going to be viable in Britain anymore and that
was true LONG before the EU showed up.

Britain lost its steel industry while in the EU

Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything
to do with the fact that the steel industry was never
going to be viable in Britain once China got its act
into gear on that.

And none of that **** will return if Britain leaves the EU.

And these REMAIN pillocks are still saying...

"Don't leave! You will risk losing our industries!"

That is true of what remains of the car industry.
The rest of the world gave up on British cars
LONG ago now. Only the EU is a viable market
for what **** is still produced in Britain.

In article ,
Brian Gaff wrote:
I'm not so sure about Steel, though I do believe that we need to look at
where the holes in the market are on this one and do stuff better or
cheaper where we can. Besides, many countries do tend to dump things to
weaken the home producers, seems to be a common thing. The Americans
seem to have used trade tariffs to redress the balance. The other items
you mention who compete from a less well paid country with poorer
helth and safety do wrankle a lot with people but as you say has sod
all to do with the EU.

Odd, isn't it?

Saudi has dumped large quantities of oil on the world market depressing
the price dramatically. Decimating our North Sea oil industry. But
everyone is happy because fuel prices are lower at the pumps.

The same happens to steel, and people are up in arms.

--
He who laughs last, thinks slowest*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sunday, 12 June 2016 09:49:09 UTC+1, Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 09:44:20 +0100, Nightjar wrote:

Britain lost its textile industry while in the EU

Which has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with cheap
labour costs in third world countries.

And this really does sum up the logic of much of the brexit campaign. "We
were big and important before we joined the EU, so it must be the EU's
fault".

That has about nothing to do with the reasons for brexit


NT

On 12/06/16 11:17, dennis@home wrote:
On 12/06/2016 09:49, Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 09:44:20 +0100, Nightjar wrote:

Britain lost its textile industry while in the EU

Which has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with cheap
labour costs in third world countries.

And this really does sum up the logic of much of the brexit campaign. "We
were big and important before we joined the EU, so it must be the EU's
fault".

The entire brexit campaign is based on speculation and lies, it has been
from the start.

Ah, I do love a proof by assertion first thin in te morning

So says the proven liar ;-)



You cannot believe anything they say as they have nothing to base their
assumptions on.

Most of them want out for emotional reasons and will believe anything
negative anyone says about the EU because that supports their emotions.
They will not believe anything positive about remaining because that
goes against their emotions so any argument is a waste of effort. The
best you can do is influence the undecided who may actually think about
it unlike harry and friends.


--
"Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
let them."

On 12/06/16 11:17, dennis@home wrote:
Most of them want out for emotional reasons and will believe anything
negative anyone says about the EU because that supports their emotions.
They will not believe anything positive about remaining because that
goes against their emotions so any argument is a waste of effort. The
best you can do is influence the undecided who may actually think about
it unlike harry and friends.

Its very revealing that you say that Dennis, because it shows exactly
whey you are a remainer

Emotional reasons.

--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

On 12/06/16 12:22, wrote:
On Sunday, 12 June 2016 09:49:09 UTC+1, Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 09:44:20 +0100, Nightjar wrote:

Britain lost its textile industry while in the EU

Which has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with cheap
labour costs in third world countries.

And this really does sum up the logic of much of the brexit campaign. "We
were big and important before we joined the EU, so it must be the EU's
fault".

That has about nothing to do with the reasons for brexit


NT

Reason for brexit are pure rational cost benefit.

The EU doesn't work, and hugely disadvantages its member states,.
The EU cant be changed from inside - we tried.
Therefore we leave it.


--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

On 12/06/2016 11:34, Adrian wrote:
TBH, giving Harry, TurNiP, Capitol and the like the oxygen of publicity
is probably one of the Remain camp's strongest tactics.

I hope so.

--
Rod

In article ,
wrote:
On Sunday, 12 June 2016 09:49:09 UTC+1, Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 09:44:20 +0100, Nightjar wrote:

Britain lost its textile industry while in the EU

Which has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with cheap
labour costs in third world countries.

And this really does sum up the logic of much of the brexit campaign.
"We were big and important before we joined the EU, so it must be the
EU's fault".

That has about nothing to do with the reasons for brexit

It's a common enough argument used by BREXIT. 'We don't need Europe - we
can re-establish free trade areas with the likes of the old commonwealth.'
A great deal of their reasoning seems to involve winding back the clock.

'Too many EU rules and regs' So it's fair to assume they'd want all of
those cancelled and go back to what was before. Even if it meant our goods
etc couldn't then be exported to the EU.

--
*The beatings will continue until morale improves *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 12/06/16 12:31, polygonum wrote:
On 12/06/2016 11:34, Adrian wrote:
TBH, giving Harry, TurNiP, Capitol and the like the oxygen of publicity
is probably one of the Remain camp's strongest tactics.

I hope so.

But you fear not

After all brexiteers are in the majority.


--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
...I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

dennis@home wrote:
On 12/06/2016 09:49, Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 09:44:20 +0100, Nightjar wrote:

Britain lost its textile industry while in the EU

Which has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with cheap
labour costs in third world countries.

And this really does sum up the logic of much of the brexit campaign.
"We
were big and important before we joined the EU, so it must be the EU's
fault".

The entire brexit campaign is based on speculation and lies, it has
been from the start.

You cannot believe anything they say as they have nothing to base
their assumptions on.

Most of them want out for emotional reasons and will believe anything
negative anyone says about the EU because that supports their emotions.
They will not believe anything positive about remaining because that
goes against their emotions so any argument is a waste of effort. The
best you can do is influence the undecided who may actually think
about it unlike harry and friends.

Where are the positive reasons for staying Denise?

The latest neutral opinion poll apparently shows a 19 point lead
for Brexit. Looking at the Daily Mirror readers poll this morning, it
shows 75% for staying, but the readers letters are 100% for leaving!
Rigged poll by Remain anyone?

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 12/06/16 11:17, dennis@home wrote:
On 12/06/2016 09:49, Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 09:44:20 +0100, Nightjar wrote:

Britain lost its textile industry while in the EU

Which has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with cheap
labour costs in third world countries.

And this really does sum up the logic of much of the brexit
campaign. "We
were big and important before we joined the EU, so it must be the EU's
fault".

The entire brexit campaign is based on speculation and lies, it has been
from the start.

Ah, I do love a proof by assertion first thin in te morning

So says the proven liar ;-)



You cannot believe anything they say as they have nothing to base their
assumptions on.

Most of them want out for emotional reasons and will believe anything
negative anyone says about the EU because that supports their emotions.
They will not believe anything positive about remaining because that
goes against their emotions so any argument is a waste of effort. The
best you can do is influence the undecided who may actually think about
it unlike harry and friends.



He's a remainer, what else do you expect. None of them can come up
with positive reasons for staying.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 12/06/16 11:17, dennis@home wrote:
Most of them want out for emotional reasons and will believe anything
negative anyone says about the EU because that supports their emotions.
They will not believe anything positive about remaining because that
goes against their emotions so any argument is a waste of effort. The
best you can do is influence the undecided who may actually think about
it unlike harry and friends.

Its very revealing that you say that Dennis, because it shows exactly
whey you are a remainer

Emotional reasons.


No, it's stupidity!

Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 10:41:03 +0100, tim... wrote:


Britain lost its rail rolling stock industry while in the EU


Nothing whatever to do with the EU.

Actually that one is.

We are the only major European country that plays by the rules when
tendering rail contracts which have almost all been won by other
European companies and our national industry has all but collapsed
because of it

Other EU country game the rules to make sure that their home company
wins bids for local work and hence keep the business afloat

So, basically, it's nothing to do with the EU, and everything to do with
how the UK government interprets "the rules"?


Britain lost most of its car industry while in the EU


Nothing whatever to do with the EU, everything to do with Britain being
completely ****ing hopeless at car manufacturing.
Plenty of others in the EU do fine in that area.


Actually so do we

just not with historic UK badges on the front,.

The motor industry, at least as far as British ownership goes, was
already pretty much dead and buried YEARS before the UK even joined the
EC.

Vauxhall was 100% owned by GM from 1925.

Ford of Britain was never anything but majority owned by Ford US and by
1961 was 100% US owned. Ford gradually "rationalised" their European
operations through the 1960s, and Ford Europe merged Ford of Britain into
Ford Germany in 1967, based in Cologne.

Rootes Group was fully owned by Chrysler from 1967, before being sold to
PSA Peugeot Citroen in 1978.

BL is a long saga of wolves being beaten from doors - from Morris/Austin/
Jaguar/Pressed Steel being pushed by the government to merging, as
British Motor Holdings, in 1966 - before merger with Leyland Vehicles to
form BLMC in 1968, turning into BL with nationalisation in 1975, then
sale to BAe in 1984. The Honda tie-up was touted as being the saviour as
far back as the late '70s, with the Honda Ballade being rebadged as the
Triumph Acclaim in 1981, Jaguar was sold to Ford in 1984, the commercial
vehicles were sold to DAF in 1987, and BAe sold the rest to BMW in 1994.

So, when the UK joined the EC in 1975, three of the "big four" were US
owned, while the fourth was being nationalised in yet another attempt to
stop it going tits. UK car production was below 1m cars by 1980. In 2015,
it was nearly 1.6m. In the next year or two, it's forecast to be the
highest ever figure.


Yes, due to the UK being leaders in car design and exporting
worldwide. Very little goes to the EU.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Brian wrote:

I'm not so sure about Steel, though I do believe that we need to look at
where the holes in the market are on this one and do stuff better or
cheaper where we can. Besides, many countries do tend to dump things to
weaken the home producers, seems to be a common thing. The Americans
seem to have used trade tariffs to redress the balance. The other items
you mention who compete from a less well paid country with poorer
helth and safety do wrankle a lot with people but as you say has sod
all to do with the EU.

Odd, isn't it?

Saudi has dumped large quantities of oil on the world market depressing
the price dramatically. Decimating our North Sea oil industry. But
everyone is happy because fuel prices are lower at the pumps.

The same happens to steel, and people are up in arms.


North sea oil is still viable even at these lower prices. You can
shut down an oil well on a temporary basis, or reduce output. You can't
do that with a blast furnace.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
wrote:

We are the only major European country that plays by the rules when
tendering rail contracts which have almost all been won by other
European companies and our national industry has all but collapsed
because of it


Other EU country game the rules to make sure that their home company
wins bids for local work and hence keep the business afloat

Right. Does the EU moves the goalposts for the UK when it comes to bidding?

Or is it the UK is incompetent at interpreting EU legislation?

If the latter, how would leaving help that? We'd still need to meet EU
regs when exporting to them.


We meet other countries rules without problems, we don't need to apply
EU rules to everything if we are out.

Can one of you remainers please make a positive case for
staying? No, I thought not.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
wrote:

On Sunday, 12 June 2016 09:49:09 UTC+1, Adrian wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 09:44:20 +0100, Nightjar wrote:


Britain lost its textile industry while in the EU


Which has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with cheap
labour costs in third world countries.

And this really does sum up the logic of much of the brexit campaign.
"We were big and important before we joined the EU, so it must be the
EU's fault".


That has about nothing to do with the reasons for brexit

It's a common enough argument used by BREXIT. 'We don't need Europe - we
can re-establish free trade areas with the likes of the old commonwealth.'
A great deal of their reasoning seems to involve winding back the clock.

'Too many EU rules and regs' So it's fair to assume they'd want all of
those cancelled and go back to what was before. Even if it meant our goods
etc couldn't then be exported to the EU.


False logic again?

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 12:24:43 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 12/06/16 11:17, dennis@home wrote:
Most of them want out for emotional reasons and will believe anything
negative anyone says about the EU because that supports their emotions.
They will not believe anything positive about remaining because that
goes against their emotions so any argument is a waste of effort. The
best you can do is influence the undecided who may actually think about
it unlike harry and friends.

Its very revealing that you say that Dennis, because it shows exactly whey
you are a remainer

Emotional reasons.

"They will not believe anything positive about remaining..."
AFAIC there *is* nothing positive about remaining.
From "Der Spiegel":

Falls die Briten gegen den Brexit stimmen, vielleicht sogar mit 55 oder 60
Prozent und nicht nur mit 50,01 Prozent, dann ist dies ein Mandat. Dann sollten
die Briten so souverän sein, mit dem aufzuhören, was dem Rest Europas seit
Jahren auf die Nerven geht: mit Sonderwünschen, Selbstmitleid und diesem elenden
Gefeilsche um allerletzte Details.

Translated:-
Should the British vote against Brexit, perhaps by 55% or 60% rather than
50.1%, then that would be a mandate. Then the British should stop doing the
things that have irritated the rest of Europe for years: special requests,
self-pity and wretched haggling over every last detail.

In other words: IF you remain in the EU, at some point you *will* have to
toe the line.

The New European Soviet - Mikhail Gorbachev
http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/globa.../soviet-eu.htm

WHY WE SHOULD LEAVE THE EU.
Master Investor, economist and entrepreneur, Jim Mellon, argues Britain is
better off leaving the "sinking ship" that is the European Union. If we stay in
the EU, within 3-5 years Britain will be forced to deal with the devastating
knock-on effects of a collapsing Euro and continental-wide depression.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuOIjK86c4o

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 14:35:27 +0100, Martin Barclay wrote:

WHY WE SHOULD LEAVE THE EU.
Master Investor, economist and entrepreneur, Jim Mellon, argues Britain
is better off leaving the "sinking ship" that is the European Union. If
we stay in the EU, within 3-5 years Britain will be forced to deal with
the devastating knock-on effects of a collapsing Euro and
continental-wide depression. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuOIjK86c4o

So why not stay until it does get that bad?

At present I consider it a manageable situation and am happy to Remain.
If it gets worse my views may/would change and we can then exit. Nothing
lost.

Of course, if we came out now and the situation worsened for *us* as it
is just as likely to do then we would only be re-admitted on far worse
terms than we have now. Everything lost.

In article ,
Martin Barclay wrote:
Should the British vote against Brexit, perhaps by 55% or 60% rather
than 50.1%, then that would be a mandate. Then the British should stop
doing the things that have irritated the rest of Europe for years:
special requests, self-pity and wretched haggling over every last
detail.

In other words: IF you remain in the EU, at some point you *will* have
to toe the line.

In other words, you believe every word you read in the press. When it
suits you, of course.

I take it then you believe what Boris wrote only a few months ago about
why we should remain in the EU?

--
*I pretend to work. - they pretend to pay me.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 12/06/16 14:12, Capitol wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 12/06/16 11:17, dennis@home wrote:
Most of them want out for emotional reasons and will believe anything
negative anyone says about the EU because that supports their emotions.
They will not believe anything positive about remaining because that
goes against their emotions so any argument is a waste of effort. The
best you can do is influence the undecided who may actually think about
it unlike harry and friends.

Its very revealing that you say that Dennis, because it shows exactly
whey you are a remainer

Emotional reasons.


No, it's stupidity!

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Look at the average Labour voter.


--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

On 12/06/16 14:41, Mark Allread wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 14:35:27 +0100, Martin Barclay wrote:

WHY WE SHOULD LEAVE THE EU.
Master Investor, economist and entrepreneur, Jim Mellon, argues Britain
is better off leaving the "sinking ship" that is the European Union. If
we stay in the EU, within 3-5 years Britain will be forced to deal with
the devastating knock-on effects of a collapsing Euro and
continental-wide depression. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuOIjK86c4o

So why not stay until it does get that bad?

Because the ability to leave will no longer exist.

If te EU prives amssively woinderful I am sure that we can reappliy in
ten yeras time

If it proves to be an anti-democratic crock of **** like the USSR, we
would have to wait for it to collapse in a miserable state just as E
Europe did.


At present I consider it a manageable situation and am happy to Remain.
If it gets worse my views may/would change and we can then exit. Nothing
lost.

Unfortunately not the case. If this referendum fails to gain exit, there
wont be another one. The EU will make sure of that.



Of course, if we came out now and the situation worsened for *us* as it
is just as likely to do then we would only be re-admitted on far worse
terms than we have now. Everything lost.


Well then why bother to be re-admitted at all?


--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 14:09:43 +0100, Capitol wrote:

snip

The latest neutral opinion poll apparently shows a 19 point lead
for Brexit. Looking at the Daily Mirror readers poll this morning, it
shows 75% for staying, but the readers letters are 100% for leaving!
Rigged poll by Remain anyone?

This looks to be taken from a fair few sources:

https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-polling/

Cheers, T i m

On Sunday, 12 June 2016 12:27:14 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 12/06/16 12:22, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 12 June 2016 09:49:09 UTC+1, Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 09:44:20 +0100, Nightjar wrote:

And this really does sum up the logic of much of the brexit campaign. "We
were big and important before we joined the EU, so it must be the EU's
fault".

That has about nothing to do with the reasons for brexit

Reason for brexit are pure rational cost benefit.

I really hope not. Are we so lost as a society that people are in a rush to give away basic liberties in exchange for some gambley chance of a few percent income? To talk of it as a cost issue is truly missing the point.


The EU doesn't work, and hugely disadvantages its member states,.
The EU cant be changed from inside - we tried.
Therefore we leave it.

I don't mind 2 way arrangements that permit & ease trading. But I totally object to importing Europe's corrupt approach of banning things people need so people can be extorted. Borax, glyphosate etc etc. And I totally object to government without representation, which the EU is.


NT

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 15:30:44 +0100, T i m wrote:

The latest neutral opinion poll apparently shows a 19 point lead
for Brexit. Looking at the Daily Mirror readers poll this morning, it
shows 75% for staying, but the readers letters are 100% for leaving!
Rigged poll by Remain anyone?

This looks to be taken from a fair few sources:

https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-polling/

Hush with your facts and reality.

It even contains all the source polls, and the P-o-P methodology used.

How positively untrustworthy.

On 12/06/16 15:40, wrote:
On Sunday, 12 June 2016 12:27:14 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 12/06/16 12:22, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 12 June 2016 09:49:09 UTC+1, Adrian wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 09:44:20 +0100, Nightjar wrote:

And this really does sum up the logic of much of the brexit campaign. "We
were big and important before we joined the EU, so it must be the EU's
fault".

That has about nothing to do with the reasons for brexit

Reason for brexit are pure rational cost benefit.

I really hope not. Are we so lost as a society that people are in a rush to give away basic liberties in exchange for some gambley chance of a few percent income? To talk of it as a cost issue is truly missing the point.


Cost and benefit is not only in money terms.

The EU doesn't work, and hugely disadvantages its member states,.
The EU cant be changed from inside - we tried.
Therefore we leave it.

I don't mind 2 way arrangements that permit & ease trading. But I totally object to importing Europe's corrupt approach of banning things people need so people can be extorted. Borax, glyphosate etc etc. And I totally object to government without representation, which the EU is.


NT



--
"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
all women"

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 15:23:37 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 12/06/16 14:41, Mark Allread wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 14:35:27 +0100, Martin Barclay wrote:

WHY WE SHOULD LEAVE THE EU.
Master Investor, economist and entrepreneur, Jim Mellon, argues
Britain is better off leaving the "sinking ship" that is the European
Union. If we stay in the EU, within 3-5 years Britain will be forced
to deal with the devastating knock-on effects of a collapsing Euro and
continental-wide depression.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuOIjK86c4o

So why not stay until it does get that bad?

Because the ability to leave will no longer exist.

Why ever not? There is nothing to stop another referendum being held.

If te EU prives amssively woinderful I am sure that we can reappliy in
ten yeras time


On far worse terms than we have now - get real!


At present I consider it a manageable situation and am happy to Remain.
If it gets worse my views may/would change and we can then exit.
Nothing lost.

Unfortunately not the case. If this referendum fails to gain exit, there
wont be another one. The EU will make sure of that.

What a load of rubbish - of course we could have another referendum.



Of course, if we came out now and the situation worsened for *us* as it
is just as likely to do then we would only be re-admitted on far worse
terms than we have now. Everything lost.


Well then why bother to be re-admitted at all?

You missed the point, never mind.

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 10:25:09 -0500, Mark Allread wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 15:23:37 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 12/06/16 14:41, Mark Allread wrote:
On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 14:35:27 +0100, Martin Barclay wrote:

WHY WE SHOULD LEAVE THE EU.
Master Investor, economist and entrepreneur, Jim Mellon, argues
Britain is better off leaving the "sinking ship" that is the European
Union. If we stay in the EU, within 3-5 years Britain will be forced
to deal with the devastating knock-on effects of a collapsing Euro and
continental-wide depression.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuOIjK86c4o

So why not stay until it does get that bad?

Because the ability to leave will no longer exist.

Why ever not? There is nothing to stop another referendum being held.

If te EU prives amssively woinderful I am sure that we can reappliy in
ten yeras time


On far worse terms than we have now - get real!


At present I consider it a manageable situation and am happy to Remain.
If it gets worse my views may/would change and we can then exit.
Nothing lost.

Unfortunately not the case. If this referendum fails to gain exit, there
wont be another one. The EU will make sure of that.

What a load of rubbish - of course we could have another referendum.

If you're really that naive, I have a bridge for sale......

Of course, if we came out now and the situation worsened for *us* as it
is just as likely to do then we would only be re-admitted on far worse
terms than we have now. Everything lost.


Well then why bother to be re-admitted at all?

You missed the point, never mind.

--
The New European Soviet - Mikhail Gorbachev
http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/globa.../soviet-eu.htm

WHY WE SHOULD LEAVE THE EU.
Master Investor, economist and entrepreneur, Jim Mellon, argues Britain is
better off leaving the "sinking ship" that is the European Union. If we stay in
the EU, within 3-5 years Britain will be forced to deal with the devastating
knock-on effects of a collapsing Euro and continental-wide depression.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuOIjK86c4o

On 12/06/16 16:25, Mark Allread wrote:
What a load of rubbish - of course we could have another referendum.

Bless!


--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 14:52:25 +0000 (UTC), Adrian
wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jun 2016 15:30:44 +0100, T i m wrote:

The latest neutral opinion poll apparently shows a 19 point lead
for Brexit. Looking at the Daily Mirror readers poll this morning, it
shows 75% for staying, but the readers letters are 100% for leaving!
Rigged poll by Remain anyone?

This looks to be taken from a fair few sources:

https://ig.ft.com/sites/brexit-polling/

Hush with your facts and reality.

Hehe.

It even contains all the source polls, and the P-o-P methodology used.

Yup. It looked quite credible to me (FWIW etc).

How positively untrustworthy.

You can be sure some will find a way to counter it and if all else
fails it's a conspiracy theory. ;-)

Cheers, T i m