I know this is OT but I rather suspect that some of you will be able to
help.

Boy1 (13) is interested in learning how to write code and so I would like to
set him up with a toolkit for his PC (Windows) unfortunately my programming
days are somewhat in the past and restricted to MUMPS which was archaic even
back then. Has anyone any suggestions for a suitable platform? As ever the
cheaper the better.

Cheers

Mark

Ferretygubbins wrote

I know this is OT but I rather suspect
that some of you will be able to help.

Boy1 (13) is interested in learning how to write code and so I would
like to set him up with a toolkit for his PC (Windows) unfortunately
my programming days are somewhat in the past and restricted to
MUMPS which was archaic even back then. Has anyone any
suggestions for a suitable platform? As ever the cheaper the better.

Really depends on what you see him doing code wise.

You can do quite a bit in VBA in Office but that isnt going
to be of any interest to him if say he wants to write games
etc and many kids do want to do stuff like that.

With kids its mostly about what they find interesting to code
that determines what they are likely to find useful code wise.

He might be interested in doing apps for android phones if he has one.

On 28/01/2015 21:48, Ferretygubbins wrote:
I know this is OT but I rather suspect that some of you will be able to
help.

Boy1 (13) is interested in learning how to write code and so I would
like to set him up with a toolkit for his PC (Windows) unfortunately my
programming days are somewhat in the past and restricted to MUMPS which
was archaic even back then. Has anyone any suggestions for a suitable
platform? As ever the cheaper the better.

Cheers

Mark


http://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/do...ress-windows-8

On 28/01/2015 22:02, Dennis@home wrote:
On 28/01/2015 21:48, Ferretygubbins wrote:
I know this is OT but I rather suspect that some of you will be able to
help.

Boy1 (13) is interested in learning how to write code and so I would
like to set him up with a toolkit for his PC (Windows) unfortunately my
programming days are somewhat in the past and restricted to MUMPS which
was archaic even back then. Has anyone any suggestions for a suitable
platform? As ever the cheaper the better.

Cheers

Mark


http://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/do...ress-windows-8

OK - yes it is very good, but what's he going to do with it?

On 28/01/2015 21:48, Ferretygubbins wrote:
I know this is OT but I rather suspect that some of you will be able to
help.

Boy1 (13) is interested in learning how to write code and so I would
like to set him up with a toolkit for his PC (Windows) unfortunately my
programming days are somewhat in the past and restricted to MUMPS which
was archaic even back then. Has anyone any suggestions for a suitable
platform? As ever the cheaper the better.

What "code" does he have in mind?

It take a lot of time and experience to be able to write meaningful
games, such that he might get disheartened.

Personally, I would suggest he could get into making websites and move
onto scripting etc when he's mastered noddy HTML.

On 28/01/2015 22:24, Fredxxx wrote:
On 28/01/2015 22:02, Dennis@home wrote:
On 28/01/2015 21:48, Ferretygubbins wrote:
I know this is OT but I rather suspect that some of you will be able to
help.

Boy1 (13) is interested in learning how to write code and so I would
like to set him up with a toolkit for his PC (Windows) unfortunately my
programming days are somewhat in the past and restricted to MUMPS which
was archaic even back then. Has anyone any suggestions for a suitable
platform? As ever the cheaper the better.

Cheers

Mark


http://www.visualstudio.com/en-us/do...ress-windows-8

OK - yes it is very good, but what's he going to do with it?

http://www.codecademy.com/ then.

On 28/01/2015 21:48, Ferretygubbins wrote:
I know this is OT but I rather suspect that some of you will be able to
help.

Boy1 (13) is interested in learning how to write code and so I would
like to set him up with a toolkit for his PC (Windows) unfortunately my
programming days are somewhat in the past and restricted to MUMPS which
was archaic even back then. Has anyone any suggestions for a suitable
platform? As ever the cheaper the better.

Have a look at Lazerus its an open source clone of Ebarcadero's[1]
Delphi development environment.

http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/

It gives you all the tools in one place, a proper integrated development
environment, code editor, object inspector, drag and drop interface
building, debugger etc. The language is based on a greatly extended
object Pascal with a very elegant class library based on the original
Borland VCL (designed by Anders Hejlsberg who was later poached by MS to
develop C#)

[1] they bought Borland's software tools business


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wed, 28 Jan 2015 21:48:49 +0000, Ferretygubbins wrote:

I know this is OT but I rather suspect that some of you will be able to
help.

Boy1 (13) is interested in learning how to write code and so I would
like to set him up with a toolkit for his PC (Windows) unfortunately my
programming days are somewhat in the past and restricted to MUMPS which
was archaic even back then. Has anyone any suggestions for a suitable
platform? As ever the cheaper the better.

For an easy start, aimed at people of his age, try Greenfoot:

http://www.greenfoot.org

Simple games in Java (not a lot of experience needed).

Then move on to BlueJ:

http://www.bluej.org

(the developers are on my corridor at work). Used for teaching all over
the world.





--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £30a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 28/01/2015 22:19, Huge wrote:

snip

I'd go for Python. Starting here;


( Forth I go for would.)

.." Cheers"
--
Syd

On Wednesday, 28 January 2015 21:48:48 UTC, Ferretygubbins wrote:
Boy1 (13) is interested in learning how to write code and so I would like to
set him up with a toolkit for his PC (Windows) unfortunately my programming
days are somewhat in the past and restricted to MUMPS which was archaic even
back then. Has anyone any suggestions for a suitable platform? As ever the
cheaper the better.

As well as python, Scratch is popular especially on Raspberry Pi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scratch...mming_language)
http://scratch.mit.edu/

Owain

On 28/01/2015 22:44, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 28 Jan 2015 21:48:49 +0000, Ferretygubbins wrote:

I know this is OT but I rather suspect that some of you will be able to
help.

Boy1 (13) is interested in learning how to write code and so I would
like to set him up with a toolkit for his PC (Windows) unfortunately my
programming days are somewhat in the past and restricted to MUMPS which
was archaic even back then. Has anyone any suggestions for a suitable
platform? As ever the cheaper the better.

For an easy start, aimed at people of his age, try Greenfoot:

http://www.greenfoot.org

Simple games in Java (not a lot of experience needed).

Then move on to BlueJ:

http://www.bluej.org

(the developers are on my corridor at work). Used for teaching all over
the world.

Or for even easier, look at "scratch"

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Huge wrote:

I'd go for Python. Starting here;

https://www.python.org/about/gettingstarted/

The big drawback I found when I tried to get into Python was that everything
non-trivial needed one to find the right class to add to the basic language.
On the one hand, it was nice to have classes already written to do more
complex things, on the other hand it's not easy for a beginner in a
particular language to judge which one of (perhaps) a multitude of extension
packages best suits a job.

I think I'd start with some simpler less extensible language where there's a
better chance of getting to grips with a much smaller range of possible
features.

--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Email sent to my from-address will be deleted. Instead, please reply
to replacing "aaa" by "284".

On 28/01/2015 21:59, Rod Speed wrote:
Ferretygubbins wrote
I know this is OT but I rather suspect that some of you will be able
to help.

Boy1 (13) is interested in learning how to write code and so I would
like to set him up with a toolkit for his PC (Windows) unfortunately
my programming days are somewhat in the past and restricted to MUMPS
which was archaic even back then. Has anyone any suggestions for a
suitable platform? As ever the cheaper the better.

Really depends on what you see him doing code wise.
You can do quite a bit in VBA in Office but that isnt going to be of any
interest to him if say he wants to write games etc and many kids do want
to do stuff like that.
With kids its mostly about what they find interesting to code
that determines what they are likely to find useful code wise.
He might be interested in doing apps for android phones if he has one.

If he has any Android phones or tablets I'd suggest looking at Android
development as well.

It's rewarding to be able to write software that you can carry around
with you and show to friends etc. Unfortunately the learning curve for
Java on Android is not the easiest, but at least the tools (Eclipse ADK)
are free.

LumpHammer wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Ferretygubbins wrote

I know this is OT but I rather suspect that some of you will be able to
help.

Boy1 (13) is interested in learning how to write code and so I would
like to set him up with a toolkit for his PC (Windows) unfortunately
my programming days are somewhat in the past and restricted to MUMPS
which was archaic even back then. Has anyone any suggestions for a
suitable platform? As ever the cheaper the better.

Really depends on what you see him doing code wise.

You can do quite a bit in VBA in Office but that isnt going to be of any
interest to him if say he wants to write games etc and many kids do want
to do stuff like that.

With kids its mostly about what they find interesting to code
that determines what they are likely to find useful code wise.

He might be interested in doing apps for android phones if he has one.

If he has any Android phones or tablets I'd suggest looking at Android
development as well.

Yeah, that's what matters coding wise, being able to do something useful.

It's rewarding to be able to write software that you can carry around with
you and show to friends etc.

Yeah, and likely more rewarding than writing games currently.

If he was mine, I'd get him an android phone or
tablet if he didn’t have one, they don’t cost much.

Unfortunately the learning curve for Java on Android is not the easiest,

True.

but at least the tools (Eclipse ADK) are free.

On 28/01/2015 22:37, John Rumm wrote:
On 28/01/2015 21:48, Ferretygubbins wrote:
I know this is OT but I rather suspect that some of you will be able to
help.

Boy1 (13) is interested in learning how to write code and so I would
like to set him up with a toolkit for his PC (Windows) unfortunately my
programming days are somewhat in the past and restricted to MUMPS which
was archaic even back then. Has anyone any suggestions for a suitable
platform? As ever the cheaper the better.

How good is the lad at maths? That strongly colours the best answer...

Have a look at Lazerus its an open source clone of Ebarcadero's[1]
Delphi development environment.

http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/

It gives you all the tools in one place, a proper integrated development
environment, code editor, object inspector, drag and drop interface
building, debugger etc. The language is based on a greatly extended
object Pascal with a very elegant class library based on the original
Borland VCL (designed by Anders Hejlsberg who was later poached by MS to
develop C#)

[1] they bought Borland's software tools business


I agree that for a beginner one of the Pascal based languages is a good
bet and that Delphi had a cute development environment.

Another now obscure related language with similar though more minimalist
tendencies are Wirths later Modula2 and Oberon languages. Several free
compilers are available of which XDS is probably the best and it comes
with a few code examples that show what it can do.

http://www.excelsior-usa.com/xdsx86.html

Toy programming projects he can easily do in the VBA project side of
Office applications like Excel or fxshudder/fx Word.

MS offer free versions of their compilers for download but I think the
learning curve is far too steep for most people to make any progress
without an experienced coach or teacher to hand.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 28 Jan 2015 22:19:59 GMT, Huge wrote:

Boy1 ...

Only daughters are numbered, boys have names. B-)

... (13) is interested in learning how to write code ...

Code to do what? Writing a game that is much above Pong or Breakout
takes a lot of effort. "Hello World" gets boring after a while. There
has to be an itch that needs to scratched.

I'd go for Python.

Hum, personally I'm not keen on Python, it relies on correct and non
mixed (tab/space) indentation to run and when it doesn't it doesn't,
in my experience, tell you that it's upset about the indentation, it
just weird things (cause code is being run in an unexpected order) or
falls over with an error "that can't happen", except when the code is
running in an unexpected order.

Starting with HTML/CSS and moving on to PHP might be good place as
you get results straight away. If he has a Smartphone developing
something for that should give good rewards, the tools for Android
are free, donno about iOS.

I'd avoid any of the "teaching" languages, why learn something that
isn't used in the real world? It might give a grounding in the basic
way that code is structured but you can get that from any more main
stream languages with a decent "Beginers Guide to ..." book or online
tutorial.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 29/01/2015 04:31, Rod Speed wrote:
LumpHammer wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Ferretygubbins wrote

I know this is OT but I rather suspect that some of you will be able
to help.

Boy1 (13) is interested in learning how to write code and so I would
like to set him up with a toolkit for his PC (Windows) unfortunately
my programming days are somewhat in the past and restricted to MUMPS
which was archaic even back then. Has anyone any suggestions for a
suitable platform? As ever the cheaper the better.

Really depends on what you see him doing code wise.

You can do quite a bit in VBA in Office but that isnt going to be of
any interest to him if say he wants to write games etc and many kids
do want to do stuff like that.

With kids its mostly about what they find interesting to code
that determines what they are likely to find useful code wise.

He might be interested in doing apps for android phones if he has one.

If he has any Android phones or tablets I'd suggest looking at Android
development as well.

Yeah, that's what matters coding wise, being able to do something useful.

It's rewarding to be able to write software that you can carry around
with you and show to friends etc.

Yeah, and likely more rewarding than writing games currently.

If he was mine, I'd get him an android phone or
tablet if he didn’t have one, they don’t cost much.

Unfortunately the learning curve for Java on Android is not the easiest,

True.

but at least the tools (Eclipse ADK) are free.

On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 09:09:20 +0000, Dave Liquorice wrote:

... (13) is interested in learning how to write code ...

Code to do what? Writing a game that is much above Pong or Breakout
takes a lot of effort. "Hello World" gets boring after a while. There
has to be an itch that needs to scratched.

Yep, that's my experience, too.

Unless you've actually got a problem that needs to be solved, or you're
some kind of wierdo who actually likes figuring code syntax out, you'll
never get beyond "Hello World". Which is why I never have.

"Martin Brown" wrote in message
...
On 28/01/2015 22:37, John Rumm wrote:
On 28/01/2015 21:48, Ferretygubbins wrote:
I know this is OT but I rather suspect that some of you will be able to
help.

Boy1 (13) is interested in learning how to write code and so I would
like to set him up with a toolkit for his PC (Windows) unfortunately my
programming days are somewhat in the past and restricted to MUMPS which
was archaic even back then. Has anyone any suggestions for a suitable
platform? As ever the cheaper the better.

How good is the lad at maths? That strongly colours the best answer...

Have a look at Lazerus its an open source clone of Ebarcadero's[1]
Delphi development environment.

http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/

It gives you all the tools in one place, a proper integrated development
environment, code editor, object inspector, drag and drop interface
building, debugger etc. The language is based on a greatly extended
object Pascal with a very elegant class library based on the original
Borland VCL (designed by Anders Hejlsberg who was later poached by MS to
develop C#)

[1] they bought Borland's software tools business


I agree that for a beginner one of the Pascal based languages is a good
bet and that Delphi had a cute development environment.

Another now obscure related language with similar though more minimalist
tendencies are Wirths later Modula2 and Oberon languages. Several free
compilers are available of which XDS is probably the best and it comes
with a few code examples that show what it can do.

http://www.excelsior-usa.com/xdsx86.html

Toy programming projects he can easily do in the VBA project side of
Office applications like Excel or fxshudder/fx Word.

MS offer free versions of their compilers for download but I think the
learning curve is far too steep for most people to make any progress
without an experienced coach or teacher to hand.

Depends on the kid, plenty can do it fine.

Adrian wrote
Dave Liquorice wrote

... (13) is interested in learning how to write code ...

Code to do what? Writing a game that is much above Pong
or Breakout takes a lot of effort. "Hello World" gets boring
after a while. There has to be an itch that needs to scratched.

Yep, that's my experience, too.

True.

Unless you've actually got a problem that needs to be solved, or you're
some kind of wierdo who actually likes figuring code syntax out,

Or just find code interesting.

you'll never get beyond "Hello World". Which is why I never have.

On Wed, 28 Jan 2015 21:48:49 -0000, "Ferretygubbins"
wrote:


Boy1 (13) is interested in learning how to write code and so I would like to
set him up with a toolkit for his PC (Windows)

Forget Windows and get a Raspberry Pi. Cheap, much more interesting
and vast amount of support material. You also get the ability to
easily make things happen outside the computer - like controlling
lights, motors, sensing things etc.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

On 28/01/2015 22:44, Bob Eager wrote:

For an easy start, aimed at people of his age, try Greenfoot:

http://www.greenfoot.org

Simple games in Java (not a lot of experience needed).

Then move on to BlueJ:

http://www.bluej.org

(the developers are on my corridor at work). Used for teaching all over
the world.

Or for even easier, look at "scratch"

Apparently he has been working on Scratch at school and has found it easy.
He's decided to give Greenfoot a go which is a result as it should keep him
quiet during a snow day.

Thanks to everyone for the advice - if this shows any sign of being more
than a passing fad he may be getting a Raspberry Pi for his birthday.

Cheers

On 28/01/15 23:59, Jeremy Nicoll - news posts wrote:
Huge wrote:

I'd go for Python. Starting here;

https://www.python.org/about/gettingstarted/

The big drawback I found when I tried to get into Python was that everything
non-trivial needed one to find the right class to add to the basic language.
On the one hand, it was nice to have classes already written to do more
complex things, on the other hand it's not easy for a beginner in a
particular language to judge which one of (perhaps) a multitude of extension
packages best suits a job.

I think I'd start with some simpler less extensible language where there's a
better chance of getting to grips with a much smaller range of possible
features.


Perl.

Looks like C, low overhead, do a lot without any modules and the basic
core of it's syntax is very similar to C, PHP and Java so, like Latin it
is both not quite dead, and a very useful thing to learn as it makes
learning other languages easier.

On 29/01/2015 10:15, Tim Streater wrote:
In article o.uk,
Dave Liquorice wrote:

On 28 Jan 2015 22:19:59 GMT, Huge wrote:

... (13) is interested in learning how to write code ...

Code to do what? Writing a game that is much above Pong or Breakout
takes a lot of effort. "Hello World" gets boring after a while. There
has to be an itch that needs to scratched.

Yes. In my case it's been an email client.

I'd go for Python.

Hum, personally I'm not keen on Python, it relies on correct and non
mixed (tab/space) indentation to run and when it doesn't it doesn't,
in my experience, tell you that it's upset about the indentation, it
just weird things (cause code is being run in an unexpected order) or
falls over with an error "that can't happen", except when the code is
running in an unexpected order.

For my email client I've had, for OS X, Win7, and Linux, to make a
double-clickable program that can if required put up an error message
in a pane and run a PHP script that does the real startup work.

I started on this under OS X using AppleScript which I found tedious
but doable with a bit of googling.

I was expecting that it would be easier using Visual Basic under Win7 -
no, it was harder. But hardest of all was Python under Linux. I ended
up just cutting and pasting code until it worked, with no particular
understanding of what I was doing, or what any of it was supposed to
mean.

Starting with HTML/CSS and moving on to PHP might be good place as
you get results straight away. If he has a Smartphone developing
something for that should give good rewards, the tools for Android
are free, donno about iOS.

I'd avoid any of the "teaching" languages, why learn something that
isn't used in the real world? It might give a grounding in the basic
way that code is structured but you can get that from any more main
stream languages with a decent "Beginers Guide to ..." book or online
tutorial.

All good advice, IMO.


In MSAccess circa 2000, I was grateful for the macro record facility.
Seeing how the actions you want to automate translate into code, which
you can then tweak, made the whole thing more accessible for a beginner.

On 29/01/15 04:22, LumpHammer wrote:
On 28/01/2015 21:59, Rod Speed wrote:
Ferretygubbins wrote
I know this is OT but I rather suspect that some of you will be able
to help.

Boy1 (13) is interested in learning how to write code and so I would
like to set him up with a toolkit for his PC (Windows) unfortunately
my programming days are somewhat in the past and restricted to MUMPS
which was archaic even back then. Has anyone any suggestions for a
suitable platform? As ever the cheaper the better.

Really depends on what you see him doing code wise.
You can do quite a bit in VBA in Office but that isnt going to be of any
interest to him if say he wants to write games etc and many kids do want
to do stuff like that.
With kids its mostly about what they find interesting to code
that determines what they are likely to find useful code wise.
He might be interested in doing apps for android phones if he has one.

If he has any Android phones or tablets I'd suggest looking at Android
development as well.


That's very non trivial and a very steep curve - the amount of effort
needed to get *anything* done is significant IMO having hacked on a
couple of apps.

It's rewarding to be able to write software that you can carry around
with you and show to friends etc. Unfortunately the learning curve for
Java on Android is not the easiest, but at least the tools (Eclipse ADK)
are free.

On 29/01/15 09:09, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 28 Jan 2015 22:19:59 GMT, Huge wrote:

Boy1 ...

Only daughters are numbered, boys have names. B-)

... (13) is interested in learning how to write code ...

Code to do what? Writing a game that is much above Pong or Breakout
takes a lot of effort. "Hello World" gets boring after a while. There
has to be an itch that needs to scratched.

I'd go for Python.

Hum, personally I'm not keen on Python, it relies on correct and non
mixed (tab/space) indentation to run and when it doesn't it doesn't,
in my experience, tell you that it's upset about the indentation, it
just weird things (cause code is being run in an unexpected order) or
falls over with an error "that can't happen", except when the code is
running in an unexpected order.

I agree - was ranting about this at work the other day. Managed to
offend all my colleagues when I said, after learning some python to hack
on an existing script:

Nice langauge, shame about the syntactically significant indenting crap.

.... and something about muppets.

After having wasted 2x 30 minutes finding a logic error (not a syntax
error) due to a line having slipped over.



Oh, and python changes it's damn syntax randomly.

except IOError, e:
or
except IOError as e:


c'mon on - make up your minds....


This is the singularly most annoying thing for me as a sysadmin - having
multiple versions of python installed because someone needs some new
stuff and some old stuff won't run under the new version. I'm talking
sub versions in the 2.x series here - not even 3.x

Perl on the other hand is extremely well behaved with a very long term
deprecation policy.

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 9:48:48 PM UTC, Ferretygubbins wrote:
I know this is OT but I rather suspect that some of you will be able to
help.

Boy1 (13) is interested in learning how to write code and so I would like to
set him up with a toolkit for his PC (Windows) unfortunately my programming
days are somewhat in the past and restricted to MUMPS which was archaic even
back then. Has anyone any suggestions for a suitable platform? As ever the
cheaper the better.

Cheers

Mark


You could get him a copy of SCRATCH for his PC http://scratch.mit.edu/ . It's free and it's very good. SCRATCH is visual, you 'plug together' the statements and they only fit in syntactically correct ways. My daughter (9) writes little games in SCRATCH.


Or, you could buy him a Raspberry Pi computer (costs £100 with keyboard mouse etc but needs a TV with HDMI input). With that he gets the programming language SCRATCH and PYTHON.

Then buy him Minecraft on the Pi (costs very little or maybe free). It is simpler than the PC version, but you can access the code (Python I think) that it is written in and modify it. There is whole world of Minecraft Mods..

Robert

On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 10:41:51 +0000, Tim Watts wrote:

On 28/01/15 23:59, Jeremy Nicoll - news posts wrote:
Huge wrote:

I'd go for Python. Starting here;

https://www.python.org/about/gettingstarted/

The big drawback I found when I tried to get into Python was that
everything non-trivial needed one to find the right class to add to the
basic language.
On the one hand, it was nice to have classes already written to do more
complex things, on the other hand it's not easy for a beginner in a
particular language to judge which one of (perhaps) a multitude of
extension packages best suits a job.

I think I'd start with some simpler less extensible language where
there's a better chance of getting to grips with a much smaller range
of possible features.


Perl.

Looks like C, low overhead, do a lot without any modules and the basic
core of it's syntax is very similar to C, PHP and Java so, like Latin it
is both not quite dead, and a very useful thing to learn as it makes
learning other languages easier.

Another vote for Perl.
Also a pointer to the Perl Monks for lots of resources.

I notice that nobody has mentioned Basic, designed as an entry level
programming language and much used on the BBC Micro.
Bad memories of Microsoft's take on Basic, then VB?
Or a preference for more modern structured languages?

Cheers

Dave R

--
Windows 8.1 on PCSpecialist box

On 29/01/2015 11:03, David wrote:
On Thu, 29 Jan 2015 10:41:51 +0000, Tim Watts wrote:

On 28/01/15 23:59, Jeremy Nicoll - news posts wrote:
Huge wrote:

I'd go for Python. Starting here;

https://www.python.org/about/gettingstarted/

The big drawback I found when I tried to get into Python was that
everything non-trivial needed one to find the right class to add to the
basic language.
On the one hand, it was nice to have classes already written to do more
complex things, on the other hand it's not easy for a beginner in a
particular language to judge which one of (perhaps) a multitude of
extension packages best suits a job.

I think I'd start with some simpler less extensible language where
there's a better chance of getting to grips with a much smaller range
of possible features.


Perl.

Looks like C, low overhead, do a lot without any modules and the basic
core of it's syntax is very similar to C, PHP and Java so, like Latin it
is both not quite dead, and a very useful thing to learn as it makes
learning other languages easier.

Another vote for Perl.
Also a pointer to the Perl Monks for lots of resources.

Maybe - I guess it depends what he wants to do. If you know what problem
you want to solve then you can choose the right tool.

Old SciAm mathematical games columns provide some challenging tasks for
toy and not so toy implementations of gaming algorithms.

Programming Conways game of life is a moderately tricky problem to do
well or solutions for placing N queens on an NxN chessboard.

I notice that nobody has mentioned Basic, designed as an entry level
programming language and much used on the BBC Micro.

And a free evaluation copy is available online. The OP might even be
able to remember how to use it from his school days.

http://www.bbcbasic.co.uk/bbcwin/download.html

Bad memories of Microsoft's take on Basic, then VB?
Or a preference for more modern structured languages?

The suggestion of a RaspPi made elsewhere is a good one if there is any
hint of an interest in making hardware and controlling things.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

David wrote:
I notice that nobody has mentioned Basic, designed as an entry level
programming language and much used on the BBC Micro.
Bad memories of Microsoft's take on Basic, then VB?
Or a preference for more modern structured languages?

To me it all hinges on the lad's interests and what he actually wants to
create with his new-found programming skills. A project is absolutely
essential.

And to answer your question, I can't immediately think of any project
where Basic would be the right language. :-)

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

Tim Watts wrote:
On 29/01/15 09:09, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 28 Jan 2015 22:19:59 GMT, Huge wrote:

Boy1 ...

Only daughters are numbered, boys have names. B-)

... (13) is interested in learning how to write code ...

Code to do what? Writing a game that is much above Pong or Breakout
takes a lot of effort. "Hello World" gets boring after a while. There
has to be an itch that needs to scratched.

I'd go for Python.

Hum, personally I'm not keen on Python, it relies on correct and non
mixed (tab/space) indentation to run and when it doesn't it doesn't,
in my experience, tell you that it's upset about the indentation, it
just weird things (cause code is being run in an unexpected order) or
falls over with an error "that can't happen", except when the code is
running in an unexpected order.

I agree - was ranting about this at work the other day. Managed to
offend all my colleagues when I said, after learning some python to hack
on an existing script:

Nice langauge, shame about the syntactically significant indenting crap.

So, not much chance of hiding a Whitespace program between the visible
code elements then?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitesp...ng_language%29

--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England

On 29/01/15 11:20, Tim Streater wrote:

Too many "special things" like $_ which make reading perl a constant
WTF? experience.


So don't use them.

use English;

and use nicely named variables.

And don't use $_ at all...

"RobertL" wrote in message
...
On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 9:48:48 PM UTC, Ferretygubbins wrote:
I know this is OT but I rather suspect that some of you will be able to
help.

Boy1 (13) is interested in learning how to write code and so I would like
to
set him up with a toolkit for his PC (Windows) unfortunately my
programming
days are somewhat in the past and restricted to MUMPS which was archaic
even
back then. Has anyone any suggestions for a suitable platform? As ever
the
cheaper the better.

as everyone keeps saying, depends what he plans to write the code for,

i've recently been fannying about trying to learn how to code, my initial
reason was to write programs for the arduino boards i use in my simulator
interfaces, (to get a bus dashboard working as if it were still in a real
bus... so warning lights coming on as appropriate, gauges following the in
game gauge needles etc)
This also required a plug in written in delphi to determine what data is
grabbed, but thankfully that part was already done, delphi is ass backwards
compared to C i think.

But even the delphi stuff was easier to play with once i had learnt a little
bit of C from playing with arduino's.


Then i started messing about getting the data out of a train simulator,
again with the idea to run a real train's control desk with data from a sim,
again arduino's will be used, so it's C to write the actual program that
runs on the arduino's to move the needles and operate the lights, but the
train simulator doesnt have a native data output program like the bus
simulator does, so i've had to figure out LUA just to get the raw data out
of the simulator,

it seems LUA is getting more and more popular nowadays, and i see loads of
references to something about world of warcraft and LUA modding, so if the
kid plays WOW, this might be the thing to get results that he will be
interested in straight away,

For me, i downloaded microsoft visual studio express, and played with a few
of the tutorials, then played about with LUA code,
still learning and i know very little, but got conjunctivitis right now, so
i keep loosing sharpness in my vision, loose sight of the mouse cursor, and
am distracted too much to think properly.

"Tim Watts" wrote in message ...

On 29/01/15 11:20, Tim Streater wrote:

Too many "special things" like $_ which make reading perl a constant
WTF? experience.


So don't use them.

use English;

and use nicely named variables.

And don't use $_ at all...

+1 - we used to call it 'self documenting code' - give meaningful names to
variables and subroutines, and if program flow isn't obvious add comments as
required

Over the years I've coded in Fortran, COBOL, ADA, Coral66, LISP, and many
assembler level processors along with variants of basic and C and you soon
appreciate the ability to revisit something that you coded years ago and
understand what you did even if you can't remember doing it

Andrew

On 29/01/2015 12:19, Andrew Mawson wrote:

Over the years I've coded in Fortran, COBOL, ADA, Coral66, LISP, and
many assembler level processors along with variants of basic and C and
you soon appreciate the ability to revisit something that you coded
years ago and understand what you did even if you can't remember doing
it


Stuff I can't remember doing a.k.a what I coded yesterday.

On 29/01/2015 10:36, Ferretygubbins wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
...

On 28/01/2015 22:44, Bob Eager wrote:

For an easy start, aimed at people of his age, try Greenfoot:

http://www.greenfoot.org

Simple games in Java (not a lot of experience needed).

Then move on to BlueJ:

http://www.bluej.org

(the developers are on my corridor at work). Used for teaching all over
the world.

Or for even easier, look at "scratch"

Apparently he has been working on Scratch at school and has found it
easy. He's decided to give Greenfoot a go which is a result as it should
keep him quiet during a snow day.

Thanks to everyone for the advice - if this shows any sign of being more
than a passing fad he may be getting a Raspberry Pi for his birthday.

Python and scratch are "big" on the pi. There is also a version of
Lazerus for it.

(plus all the "normal" unix tools like gcc etc but C++ might not be the
best intro to programming!)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thursday, 29 January 2015 09:13:07 UTC, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On 28 Jan 2015 22:19:59 GMT, Huge wrote:

Boy1 ...
... (13) is interested in learning how to write code ...

Code to do what? Writing a game that is much above Pong or Breakout
takes a lot of effort. "Hello World" gets boring after a while. There
has to be an itch that needs to scratched.

I believe Scratch games can be quite fun. (They're not going to sell,
but they can be entertaining if you wrote them.)

I'd go for Python.

Hum, personally I'm not keen on Python, it relies on correct and non
mixed (tab/space) indentation to run

Just set your editor to insert spaces when you press the tab key. Tab
characters in source files are the spawn of satan.

and when it doesn't it doesn't,
in my experience, tell you that it's upset about the indentation, it
just weird things (cause code is being run in an unexpected order) or
falls over with an error "that can't happen", except when the code is
running in an unexpected order.

I find Python easy to read and write, and (more to the point) my son
found it fairly easy to pick up at 16.


I'd avoid any of the "teaching" languages, why learn something that
isn't used in the real world?

Never did me much harm. I really started on BCPL (with some FORTRAN,
Algol68C, and BASIC thrown in too.)

It might give a grounding in the basic
way that code is structured but you can get that from any more main
stream languages with a decent "Beginers Guide to ..." book or online
tutorial.

The advantage of a teaching language are that you can get going more
quickly. I don't see the need to switch to a different language later
as a downside - programmers *need* to be able to switch.

On 29/01/2015 11:03, David wrote:

I notice that nobody has mentioned Basic, designed as an entry level
programming language and much used on the BBC Micro.
Bad memories of Microsoft's take on Basic, then VB?
Or a preference for more modern structured languages?

Part of the attraction of BASIC in the '70 on etc was the immediate
availability of it. Turn the machine on, and there it was ready to go
with no booting, loading, getting started or anything else. Even when
you put it on a modern machine, you lose some of that since it becomes
just another layer on top.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message ,
RobertL writes
On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 9:48:48 PM UTC, Ferretygubbins wrote:
I know this is OT but I rather suspect that some of you will be able to
help.

Boy1 (13) is interested in learning how to write code and so I would like to
set him up with a toolkit for his PC (Windows) unfortunately my programming
days are somewhat in the past and restricted to MUMPS which was archaic even
back then. Has anyone any suggestions for a suitable platform? As ever the
cheaper the better.

Cheers

Mark


You could get him a copy of SCRATCH for his PC http://scratch.mit.edu/
. It's free and it's very good. SCRATCH is visual, you 'plug together'
the statements and they only fit in syntactically correct ways. My
daughter (9) writes little games in SCRATCH.


Or, you could buy him a Raspberry Pi computer (costs £100 with keyboard
mouse etc but needs a TV with HDMI input).

Assuming that you don't have such things around already, it certainly
doesn't need to cost that much though.

Then buy him Minecraft on the Pi (costs very little or maybe free). It
is simpler than the PC version, but you can access the code (Python I
think) that it is written in and modify it. There is whole world of
Minecraft Mods.

Minecraft is written in Java.

It's now included in Raspbian by default it seems.

http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Pi_Edition

It is free, but it is limited. However I don't think the mods will run
on it. It's based on the Pocket Edition, used on Phones and tablets
which doesn't run mods AIUI.

However, that would be another 'what do he want to do route' 10yo
daughter is a minecraft addict and has been muttering about wanting to
learn how to write mods, so learning a bit of Java might be on the
horizon here
--
Chris French

In article ,
David wrote:

I notice that nobody has mentioned Basic, designed as an entry level
programming language and much used on the BBC Micro.
Bad memories of Microsoft's take on Basic, then VB?
Or a preference for more modern structured languages?

BASIC.

There, I said it.

I did write my own BASIC though, so may appear somewhat biased, but if you
have a Raspberry Pi then head over he https://projects.drogon.net/rtb/

My experience has been that it's not the language that encourages sloppy
coding style - it's the way it's taught - or not )-:

So things like Python at least force a coding style and a structured
approach, but BASIC, FORTRAN, COBOL, etc. of old didn't force it,
so it was up to the programmer to adopt that way of thinking. Or not.

I did BASIC, then assembler, IMP77, Pascal, C, FORTRAN, COBOL,
BCPL in more or less that order waaaay back... I mostly program
in C these days (and BASIC, of-course ;-)

Gordon