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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Protecting against transient blown lighting fuse
My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because the
lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen chandelier and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing fuses means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the halogen chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for them, but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!". Anyway, when I rewired the shop 15 years ago all the lighting is in 1.5mm cables. 1.5mm at "clipped direct", "within non-insulating wall", "floor/ ceiling void" is rated at between 16A and 20A. I'm tempted to replace the 5A lighting circuit fuse with a 10A fuse to avoid transient blowing when a halogen blows. Total circuit consumption is 365W of tubes, 15W CFL and 180W of the halogen chandelier, so 2.3A running total. Any comments? jgh |
#2
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Protecting against transient blown lighting fuse
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#3
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Protecting against transient blown lighting fuse
Anyway, when I rewired the shop 15 years ago all the lighting is in
1.5mm cables. 1.5mm at "clipped direct", "within non-insulating wall", "floor/ ceiling void" is rated at between 16A and 20A. I'm tempted to replace the 5A lighting circuit fuse with a 10A fuse to avoid transient blowing when a halogen blows. Total circuit consumption is 365W of tubes, 15W CFL and 180W of the halogen chandelier, so 2.3A running total. Any comments? I'll stick my head above the parapet to give Adam or others something to shoot at. I don't see anything inherently wrong with a 10A fuse if the Zs is OK *but* IIRC many (most?) pendants and other domestic fittings are only rated for 6A. And some light switches are only rated for 5A. -- Robin reply to address is (meant to be) valid |
#4
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Protecting against transient blown lighting fuse
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#5
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Protecting against transient blown lighting fuse
On 12/11/14 14:09, Dennis@home wrote:
On 12/11/2014 13:53, wrote: My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because the lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen chandelier and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing fuses means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the halogen chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for them, but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!". Put a dimmer on the chandelier as they usually have soft start so less chance the lamps will blow and take out the fuse. The lamps will take out the dimmer instead .... -- Adrian C |
#6
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Protecting against transient blown lighting fuse
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#7
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Protecting against transient blown lighting fuse
"Robin" wrote in message
... Anyway, when I rewired the shop 15 years ago all the lighting is in 1.5mm cables. 1.5mm at "clipped direct", "within non-insulating wall", "floor/ ceiling void" is rated at between 16A and 20A. I'm tempted to replace the 5A lighting circuit fuse with a 10A fuse to avoid transient blowing when a halogen blows. Total circuit consumption is 365W of tubes, 15W CFL and 180W of the halogen chandelier, so 2.3A running total. Any comments? I'll stick my head above the parapet to give Adam or others something to shoot at. I don't see anything inherently wrong with a 10A fuse if the Zs is OK *but* IIRC many (most?) pendants and other domestic fittings are only rated for 6A. And some light switches are only rated for 5A. But the OP is not running a 10A load:-) http://www.hager.co.uk/files/downloa...ower_guide.pdf is a good read. Dunno how old the article (ie table 1) is but I am sure that SBC and SES were all allowed bigger than 6A MCBs in the 17th - I need to double check that though. -- Adam |
#8
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Protecting against transient blown lighting fuse
On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 1:53:18 PM UTC, wrote:
My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because the lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen chandelier and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing fuses means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the halogen chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for them, but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!". Anyway, when I rewired the shop 15 years ago all the lighting is in 1.5mm cables. 1.5mm at "clipped direct", "within non-insulating wall", "floor/ ceiling void" is rated at between 16A and 20A. I'm tempted to replace the 5A lighting circuit fuse with a 10A fuse to avoid transient blowing when a halogen blows. Total circuit consumption is 365W of tubes, 15W CFL and 180W of the halogen chandelier, so 2.3A running total. Any comments? jgh Replace the fuse with mcb, or fit a 12v chandelier, or use LED lamps in it. ISTR the 17th allowing 10A circuits with SBC & SES, but check that. There are other options that are more involved, such as a series transformer. Flashover in halogens is in the region of 60-200A IIRC, so a 10A fuse might or might not prevent the problem mostly, but I don't assume it will. Isn't it their job to do maintenance like replacing blown fuses? NT |
#10
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Protecting against transient blown lighting fuse
http://www.hager.co.uk/files/downloa...ower_guide.pdf
is a good read. OK thanks. Score that as one head splatted. Dunno how old the article (ie table 1) is but I am sure that SBC and SES were all allowed bigger than 6A MCBs in the 17th - I need to double check that though. Yes, I think it's reg. 559.6.1.6 but don't have the final regs to check/quote. -- Robin reply to address is (meant to be) valid |
#11
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Protecting against transient blown lighting fuse
On 12/11/2014 18:09, ARW wrote:
"Robin" wrote in message ... Anyway, when I rewired the shop 15 years ago all the lighting is in 1.5mm cables. 1.5mm at "clipped direct", "within non-insulating wall", "floor/ ceiling void" is rated at between 16A and 20A. I'm tempted to replace the 5A lighting circuit fuse with a 10A fuse to avoid transient blowing when a halogen blows. Total circuit consumption is 365W of tubes, 15W CFL and 180W of the halogen chandelier, so 2.3A running total. Any comments? I'll stick my head above the parapet to give Adam or others something to shoot at. I don't see anything inherently wrong with a 10A fuse if the Zs is OK *but* IIRC many (most?) pendants and other domestic fittings are only rated for 6A. And some light switches are only rated for 5A. But the OP is not running a 10A load:-) http://www.hager.co.uk/files/downloa...ower_guide.pdf is a good read. Dunno how old the article (ie table 1) is but I am sure that SBC and SES were all allowed bigger than 6A MCBs in the 17th - I need to double check that though. Yup the restriction was removed in the 17th. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#12
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Protecting against transient blown lighting fuse
On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:22:45 PM UTC, Toby wrote:
On 12/11/2014 14:13, Adrian Caspersz wrote: On 12/11/14 14:09, Dennis@home wrote: On 12/11/2014 13:53, wrote: My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because the lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen chandelier and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing fuses means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the halogen chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for them, but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!". Put a dimmer on the chandelier as they usually have soft start so less chance the lamps will blow and take out the fuse. The lamps will take out the dimmer instead .... Not this one, it is fine for halogens at its advertised rating (I have 200w of GU10 on one without any issues at all). http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VLIS1401.html No dimmer is flashover-proof. NT |
#13
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Protecting against transient blown lighting fuse
meow wrote:
Isn't it their job to do maintenance like replacing blown fuses? I gave them a handful of spare fuses, but they ran out. I've measured the cupboard the CU is in, and replacing the fuseholder with an MCB would stick out so far the door wouldn't close. One thought is to replace the lightswitch with a switch that incorporates an MCB. Wonder if they exist. jgh |
#14
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Protecting against transient blown lighting fuse
On Thursday, November 13, 2014 11:40:03 AM UTC, wrote:
meow wrote: Isn't it their job to do maintenance like replacing blown fuses? I gave them a handful of spare fuses, but they ran out. Isnt it their job to sort that? I've measured the cupboard the CU is in, and replacing the fuseholder with an MCB would stick out so far the door wouldn't close. One thought is to replace the lightswitch with a switch that incorporates an MCB. Wonder if they exist. Not seen them. Baby mcbs are generally thermal only, no good for you. Another option is to put the light fitting on its own low as possible fuse, eg 2A. Use a mains fuse of course, a plug type. NT |
#15
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Protecting against transient blown lighting fuse
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#16
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Protecting against transient blown lighting fuse
On 13/11/2014 01:58, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:22:45 PM UTC, Toby wrote: On 12/11/2014 14:13, Adrian Caspersz wrote: On 12/11/14 14:09, Dennis@home wrote: On 12/11/2014 13:53, wrote: My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because the lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen chandelier and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing fuses means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the halogen chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for them, but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!". Put a dimmer on the chandelier as they usually have soft start so less chance the lamps will blow and take out the fuse. The lamps will take out the dimmer instead .... Not this one, it is fine for halogens at its advertised rating (I have 200w of GU10 on one without any issues at all). http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VLIS1401.html No dimmer is flashover-proof. NT Not sure why that is relevant to this part of the thread, if the OP puts that dimmer on, which has soft start, and leaves the 5A fuse in place, I expect it will be enough to prevent the fuse from blowing. -- Toby... Remove your pants to reply |
#17
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Protecting against transient blown lighting fuse
On Thursday, November 13, 2014 11:35:00 PM UTC, Toby wrote:
On 13/11/2014 01:58, wrote: On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:22:45 PM UTC, Toby wrote: On 12/11/2014 14:13, Adrian Caspersz wrote: On 12/11/14 14:09, Dennis@home wrote: On 12/11/2014 13:53, wrote: My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because the lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen chandelier and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing fuses means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the halogen chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for them, but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!". Put a dimmer on the chandelier as they usually have soft start so less chance the lamps will blow and take out the fuse. The lamps will take out the dimmer instead .... Not this one, it is fine for halogens at its advertised rating (I have 200w of GU10 on one without any issues at all). http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VLIS1401.html No dimmer is flashover-proof. Not sure why that is relevant to this part of the thread, if the OP puts that dimmer on, which has soft start, and leaves the 5A fuse in place, I expect it will be enough to prevent the fuse from blowing. Soft start doesn't prevent filament bulbs blowing, doesn't extend their life significantly and doesn't prevent arcover. NT |
#18
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Protecting against transient blown lighting fuse
"Toby" wrote in message ... On 13/11/2014 01:58, wrote: On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:22:45 PM UTC, Toby wrote: On 12/11/2014 14:13, Adrian Caspersz wrote: On 12/11/14 14:09, Dennis@home wrote: On 12/11/2014 13:53, wrote: My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because the lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen chandelier and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing fuses means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the halogen chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for them, but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!". Put a dimmer on the chandelier as they usually have soft start so less chance the lamps will blow and take out the fuse. The lamps will take out the dimmer instead .... Not this one, it is fine for halogens at its advertised rating (I have 200w of GU10 on one without any issues at all). http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VLIS1401.html No dimmer is flashover-proof. NT Not sure why that is relevant to this part of the thread, if the OP puts that dimmer on, which has soft start, and leaves the 5A fuse in place, I expect it will be enough to prevent the fuse from blowing. What he means is that WHEN you get a flashover WHEN one of the bulbs dies, the dimmer will have to be replaced. |
#19
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Protecting against transient blown lighting fuse
On 14/11/2014 00:30, wrote:
On Thursday, November 13, 2014 11:35:00 PM UTC, Toby wrote: On 13/11/2014 01:58, wrote: On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:22:45 PM UTC, Toby wrote: On 12/11/2014 14:13, Adrian Caspersz wrote: On 12/11/14 14:09, Dennis@home wrote: On 12/11/2014 13:53, wrote: My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because the lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen chandelier and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing fuses means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the halogen chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for them, but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!". Put a dimmer on the chandelier as they usually have soft start so less chance the lamps will blow and take out the fuse. The lamps will take out the dimmer instead .... Not this one, it is fine for halogens at its advertised rating (I have 200w of GU10 on one without any issues at all). http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VLIS1401.html No dimmer is flashover-proof. Not sure why that is relevant to this part of the thread, if the OP puts that dimmer on, which has soft start, and leaves the 5A fuse in place, I expect it will be enough to prevent the fuse from blowing. Soft start doesn't prevent filament bulbs blowing, doesn't extend their life significantly and doesn't prevent arcover. Soft start does actually extend the life of halogen lamps. You may find you can swap the circuit fuse going for the dimmer fuse (or the dimmer!) -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#20
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Protecting against transient blown lighting fuse
On Friday, November 14, 2014 2:04:03 AM UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/11/2014 00:30, wrote: On Thursday, November 13, 2014 11:35:00 PM UTC, Toby wrote: On 13/11/2014 01:58, wrote: On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:22:45 PM UTC, Toby wrote: On 12/11/2014 14:13, Adrian Caspersz wrote: On 12/11/14 14:09, Dennis@home wrote: On 12/11/2014 13:53, wrote: My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because the lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen chandelier No dimmer is flashover-proof. Not sure why that is relevant to this part of the thread, if the OP puts that dimmer on, which has soft start, and leaves the 5A fuse in place, I expect it will be enough to prevent the fuse from blowing. Soft start doesn't prevent filament bulbs blowing, doesn't extend their life significantly and doesn't prevent arcover. Soft start does actually extend the life of halogen lamps. You may find you can swap the circuit fuse going for the dimmer fuse (or the dimmer!) It extends halogen life some, but not GLS filament. Halogen capsule lamps are very prone to arc-over, so going that route is not a good strategy. And a bit of life extension doesnt protect against arc-over failures. If you want protection with filament lamps, you need a series transformer or an electronic solution. Or just a monster relay that can take it! NT |
#21
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Protecting against transient blown lighting fuse
On 14/11/2014 01:12, Rod Speed wrote:
"Toby" wrote in message ... On 13/11/2014 01:58, wrote: On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:22:45 PM UTC, Toby wrote: On 12/11/2014 14:13, Adrian Caspersz wrote: On 12/11/14 14:09, Dennis@home wrote: On 12/11/2014 13:53, wrote: My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because the lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen chandelier and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing fuses means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the halogen chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for them, but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!". Put a dimmer on the chandelier as they usually have soft start so less chance the lamps will blow and take out the fuse. The lamps will take out the dimmer instead .... Not this one, it is fine for halogens at its advertised rating (I have 200w of GU10 on one without any issues at all). http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VLIS1401.html No dimmer is flashover-proof. NT Not sure why that is relevant to this part of the thread, if the OP puts that dimmer on, which has soft start, and leaves the 5A fuse in place, I expect it will be enough to prevent the fuse from blowing. What he means is that WHEN you get a flashover WHEN one of the bulbs dies, the dimmer will have to be replaced. The dimmer on my gu10s lasted 22 years. When I took it apart a capacitor had burnt. As this wasn't in series with the load some fault other than a lamp caused it. |
#22
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Protecting against transient blown lighting fuse
On 14/11/2014 01:12, Rod Speed wrote:
"Toby" wrote in message ... On 13/11/2014 01:58, wrote: On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:22:45 PM UTC, Toby wrote: On 12/11/2014 14:13, Adrian Caspersz wrote: On 12/11/14 14:09, Dennis@home wrote: On 12/11/2014 13:53, wrote: My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because the lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen chandelier and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing fuses means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the halogen chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for them, but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!". Put a dimmer on the chandelier as they usually have soft start so less chance the lamps will blow and take out the fuse. The lamps will take out the dimmer instead .... Not this one, it is fine for halogens at its advertised rating (I have 200w of GU10 on one without any issues at all). http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VLIS1401.html No dimmer is flashover-proof. NT Not sure why that is relevant to this part of the thread, if the OP puts that dimmer on, which has soft start, and leaves the 5A fuse in place, I expect it will be enough to prevent the fuse from blowing. What he means is that WHEN you get a flashover WHEN one of the bulbs dies, the dimmer will have to be replaced. Well, all I can say is, I have had one of these touch dimmers on 200w of GU10 for years, have changed numerous lamps when they fail, the dimmer is fine & the 5A mcb feeding this circuit has never tripped when a lamp has failed. -- Toby... Remove your pants to reply |
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