My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because the
lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen chandelier
and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing fuses
means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the halogen
chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for them,
but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!".

Anyway, when I rewired the shop 15 years ago all the lighting is in 1.5mm
cables. 1.5mm at "clipped direct", "within non-insulating wall", "floor/
ceiling void" is rated at between 16A and 20A. I'm tempted to replace the
5A lighting circuit fuse with a 10A fuse to avoid transient blowing when
a halogen blows. Total circuit consumption is 365W of tubes, 15W CFL and
180W of the halogen chandelier, so 2.3A running total. Any comments?

jgh

wrote:
My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because the
lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen chandelier
and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing fuses
means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the halogen
chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for them,
but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!".

Anyway, when I rewired the shop 15 years ago all the lighting is in 1.5mm
cables. 1.5mm at "clipped direct", "within non-insulating wall", "floor/
ceiling void" is rated at between 16A and 20A. I'm tempted to replace the
5A lighting circuit fuse with a 10A fuse to avoid transient blowing when
a halogen blows. Total circuit consumption is 365W of tubes, 15W CFL and
180W of the halogen chandelier, so 2.3A running total. Any comments?

jgh

Almost certainly the inrush current of the halogens so not really a
fault. A 10amp fuse would be a pragmatic solution as would replacing the
fuse with a B10 plug in MCB ( if your CU is a suitable type) as they
would be able to reset the breaker themselves.

Anyway, when I rewired the shop 15 years ago all the lighting is in
1.5mm cables. 1.5mm at "clipped direct", "within non-insulating
wall", "floor/ ceiling void" is rated at between 16A and 20A. I'm
tempted to replace the 5A lighting circuit fuse with a 10A fuse to
avoid transient blowing when a halogen blows. Total circuit
consumption is 365W of tubes, 15W CFL and 180W of the halogen
chandelier, so 2.3A running total. Any comments?


I'll stick my head above the parapet to give Adam or others something to
shoot at.

I don't see anything inherently wrong with a 10A fuse if the Zs is OK
*but* IIRC many (most?) pendants and other domestic fittings are only
rated for 6A. And some light switches are only rated for 5A.
--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

On 12/11/2014 13:53, wrote:
My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because the
lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen chandelier
and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing fuses
means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the halogen
chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for them,
but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!".

Put a dimmer on the chandelier as they usually have soft start so less
chance the lamps will blow and take out the fuse.

On 12/11/14 14:09, Dennis@home wrote:
On 12/11/2014 13:53, wrote:
My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because the
lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen chandelier
and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing fuses
means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the halogen
chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for them,
but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!".

Put a dimmer on the chandelier as they usually have soft start so less
chance the lamps will blow and take out the fuse.


The lamps will take out the dimmer instead ....

--
Adrian C

On 12/11/14 13:53, wrote:
My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because the
lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen chandelier
and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing fuses
means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the halogen
chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for them,
but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!".

Anyway, when I rewired the shop 15 years ago all the lighting is in 1.5mm
cables. 1.5mm at "clipped direct", "within non-insulating wall", "floor/
ceiling void" is rated at between 16A and 20A. I'm tempted to replace the
5A lighting circuit fuse with a 10A fuse to avoid transient blowing when
a halogen blows. Total circuit consumption is 365W of tubes, 15W CFL and
180W of the halogen chandelier, so 2.3A running total. Any comments?

jgh


Type C 6A breaker?

"Robin" wrote in message
...
Anyway, when I rewired the shop 15 years ago all the lighting is in
1.5mm cables. 1.5mm at "clipped direct", "within non-insulating
wall", "floor/ ceiling void" is rated at between 16A and 20A. I'm
tempted to replace the 5A lighting circuit fuse with a 10A fuse to
avoid transient blowing when a halogen blows. Total circuit
consumption is 365W of tubes, 15W CFL and 180W of the halogen
chandelier, so 2.3A running total. Any comments?


I'll stick my head above the parapet to give Adam or others something to
shoot at.

I don't see anything inherently wrong with a 10A fuse if the Zs is OK
*but* IIRC many (most?) pendants and other domestic fittings are only
rated for 6A. And some light switches are only rated for 5A.

But the OP is not running a 10A load:-)

http://www.hager.co.uk/files/downloa...ower_guide.pdf

is a good read. Dunno how old the article (ie table 1) is but I am sure that
SBC and SES were all allowed bigger than 6A MCBs in the 17th - I need to
double check that though.

--
Adam

On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 1:53:18 PM UTC, wrote:

My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because the
lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen chandelier
and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing fuses
means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the halogen
chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for them,
but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!".

Anyway, when I rewired the shop 15 years ago all the lighting is in 1.5mm
cables. 1.5mm at "clipped direct", "within non-insulating wall", "floor/
ceiling void" is rated at between 16A and 20A. I'm tempted to replace the
5A lighting circuit fuse with a 10A fuse to avoid transient blowing when
a halogen blows. Total circuit consumption is 365W of tubes, 15W CFL and
180W of the halogen chandelier, so 2.3A running total. Any comments?

jgh

Replace the fuse with mcb, or fit a 12v chandelier, or use LED lamps in it. ISTR the 17th allowing 10A circuits with SBC & SES, but check that. There are other options that are more involved, such as a series transformer.

Flashover in halogens is in the region of 60-200A IIRC, so a 10A fuse might or might not prevent the problem mostly, but I don't assume it will.

Isn't it their job to do maintenance like replacing blown fuses?


NT

On 12/11/2014 14:13, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 12/11/14 14:09, Dennis@home wrote:
On 12/11/2014 13:53, wrote:
My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because the
lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen
chandelier
and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing
fuses
means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the
halogen
chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for
them,
but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!".

Put a dimmer on the chandelier as they usually have soft start so less
chance the lamps will blow and take out the fuse.


The lamps will take out the dimmer instead ....


Not this one, it is fine for halogens at its advertised rating (I have
200w of GU10 on one without any issues at all).
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VLIS1401.html


--
Toby...
Remove your pants to reply

http://www.hager.co.uk/files/downloa...ower_guide.pdf

is a good read.

OK thanks. Score that as one head splatted.

Dunno how old the article (ie table 1) is but I am
sure that SBC and SES were all allowed bigger than 6A MCBs in the
17th - I need to double check that though.

Yes, I think it's reg. 559.6.1.6 but don't have the final regs to
check/quote.

--
Robin
reply to address is (meant to be) valid

On 12/11/2014 18:09, ARW wrote:
"Robin" wrote in message
...
Anyway, when I rewired the shop 15 years ago all the lighting is in
1.5mm cables. 1.5mm at "clipped direct", "within non-insulating
wall", "floor/ ceiling void" is rated at between 16A and 20A. I'm
tempted to replace the 5A lighting circuit fuse with a 10A fuse to
avoid transient blowing when a halogen blows. Total circuit
consumption is 365W of tubes, 15W CFL and 180W of the halogen
chandelier, so 2.3A running total. Any comments?


I'll stick my head above the parapet to give Adam or others something
to shoot at.

I don't see anything inherently wrong with a 10A fuse if the Zs is OK
*but* IIRC many (most?) pendants and other domestic fittings are only
rated for 6A. And some light switches are only rated for 5A.

But the OP is not running a 10A load:-)

http://www.hager.co.uk/files/downloa...ower_guide.pdf


is a good read. Dunno how old the article (ie table 1) is but I am sure
that SBC and SES were all allowed bigger than 6A MCBs in the 17th - I
need to double check that though.

Yup the restriction was removed in the 17th.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:22:45 PM UTC, Toby wrote:
On 12/11/2014 14:13, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 12/11/14 14:09, Dennis@home wrote:
On 12/11/2014 13:53, wrote:
My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because the
lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen
chandelier
and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing
fuses
means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the
halogen
chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for
them,
but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!".

Put a dimmer on the chandelier as they usually have soft start so less
chance the lamps will blow and take out the fuse.


The lamps will take out the dimmer instead ....


Not this one, it is fine for halogens at its advertised rating (I have
200w of GU10 on one without any issues at all).
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VLIS1401.html

No dimmer is flashover-proof.


NT

meow wrote:
Isn't it their job to do maintenance like replacing blown fuses?

I gave them a handful of spare fuses, but they ran out.

I've measured the cupboard the CU is in, and replacing the fuseholder
with an MCB would stick out so far the door wouldn't close. One thought
is to replace the lightswitch with a switch that incorporates an MCB.
Wonder if they exist.

jgh

On Thursday, November 13, 2014 11:40:03 AM UTC, wrote:
meow wrote:
Isn't it their job to do maintenance like replacing blown fuses?

I gave them a handful of spare fuses, but they ran out.

Isnt it their job to sort that?

I've measured the cupboard the CU is in, and replacing the fuseholder
with an MCB would stick out so far the door wouldn't close. One thought
is to replace the lightswitch with a switch that incorporates an MCB.
Wonder if they exist.

Not seen them. Baby mcbs are generally thermal only, no good for you. Another option is to put the light fitting on its own low as possible fuse, eg 2A. Use a mains fuse of course, a plug type.


NT

In message ,
writes
meow wrote:
Isn't it their job to do maintenance like replacing blown fuses?

I gave them a handful of spare fuses, but they ran out.

I've measured the cupboard the CU is in, and replacing the fuseholder
with an MCB would stick out so far the door wouldn't close. One thought
is to replace the lightswitch with a switch that incorporates an MCB.
Wonder if they exist.

Don't think so.

Put a separate one in i'ts own enclosure in there for that circuit?

Could you put a FCU in the circuit for that light? Dunno if just
replacing the switch would work (as just the live switched normally).

Then they could just use standard plug type fuses (cheaper and easier to
get hold of)

Or tell them to get rid of the light !
--
Chris French

On 13/11/2014 01:58, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:22:45 PM UTC, Toby wrote:
On 12/11/2014 14:13, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 12/11/14 14:09, Dennis@home wrote:
On 12/11/2014 13:53, wrote:
My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because the
lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen
chandelier
and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing
fuses
means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the
halogen
chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for
them,
but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!".

Put a dimmer on the chandelier as they usually have soft start so less
chance the lamps will blow and take out the fuse.


The lamps will take out the dimmer instead ....


Not this one, it is fine for halogens at its advertised rating (I have
200w of GU10 on one without any issues at all).
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VLIS1401.html

No dimmer is flashover-proof.


NT


Not sure why that is relevant to this part of the thread, if the OP puts
that dimmer on, which has soft start, and leaves the 5A fuse in place, I
expect it will be enough to prevent the fuse from blowing.

--
Toby...
Remove your pants to reply

On Thursday, November 13, 2014 11:35:00 PM UTC, Toby wrote:
On 13/11/2014 01:58, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:22:45 PM UTC, Toby wrote:
On 12/11/2014 14:13, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 12/11/14 14:09, Dennis@home wrote:
On 12/11/2014 13:53, wrote:
My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because the
lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen
chandelier
and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing
fuses
means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the
halogen
chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for
them,
but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!".

Put a dimmer on the chandelier as they usually have soft start so less
chance the lamps will blow and take out the fuse.


The lamps will take out the dimmer instead ....


Not this one, it is fine for halogens at its advertised rating (I have
200w of GU10 on one without any issues at all).
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VLIS1401.html

No dimmer is flashover-proof.

Not sure why that is relevant to this part of the thread, if the OP puts
that dimmer on, which has soft start, and leaves the 5A fuse in place, I
expect it will be enough to prevent the fuse from blowing.

Soft start doesn't prevent filament bulbs blowing, doesn't extend their life significantly and doesn't prevent arcover.


NT

"Toby" wrote in message
...
On 13/11/2014 01:58, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:22:45 PM UTC, Toby wrote:
On 12/11/2014 14:13, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 12/11/14 14:09, Dennis@home wrote:
On 12/11/2014 13:53, wrote:
My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because
the
lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen
chandelier
and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing
fuses
means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the
halogen
chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for
them,
but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!".

Put a dimmer on the chandelier as they usually have soft start so less
chance the lamps will blow and take out the fuse.


The lamps will take out the dimmer instead ....


Not this one, it is fine for halogens at its advertised rating (I have
200w of GU10 on one without any issues at all).
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VLIS1401.html

No dimmer is flashover-proof.


NT


Not sure why that is relevant to this part of the thread, if the OP puts
that dimmer on, which has soft start, and leaves the 5A fuse in place, I
expect it will be enough to prevent the fuse from blowing.

What he means is that WHEN you get a flashover WHEN one
of the bulbs dies, the dimmer will have to be replaced.

On 14/11/2014 00:30, wrote:
On Thursday, November 13, 2014 11:35:00 PM UTC, Toby wrote:
On 13/11/2014 01:58, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:22:45 PM UTC, Toby wrote:
On 12/11/2014 14:13, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 12/11/14 14:09, Dennis@home wrote:
On 12/11/2014 13:53, wrote:
My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because the
lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen
chandelier
and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing
fuses
means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the
halogen
chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for
them,
but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!".

Put a dimmer on the chandelier as they usually have soft start so less
chance the lamps will blow and take out the fuse.


The lamps will take out the dimmer instead ....


Not this one, it is fine for halogens at its advertised rating (I have
200w of GU10 on one without any issues at all).
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VLIS1401.html

No dimmer is flashover-proof.

Not sure why that is relevant to this part of the thread, if the OP puts
that dimmer on, which has soft start, and leaves the 5A fuse in place, I
expect it will be enough to prevent the fuse from blowing.

Soft start doesn't prevent filament bulbs blowing, doesn't extend their life significantly and doesn't prevent arcover.

Soft start does actually extend the life of halogen lamps. You may find
you can swap the circuit fuse going for the dimmer fuse (or the dimmer!)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Friday, November 14, 2014 2:04:03 AM UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 14/11/2014 00:30, wrote:
On Thursday, November 13, 2014 11:35:00 PM UTC, Toby wrote:
On 13/11/2014 01:58, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:22:45 PM UTC, Toby wrote:
On 12/11/2014 14:13, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 12/11/14 14:09, Dennis@home wrote:
On 12/11/2014 13:53, wrote:
My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time because the
lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen
chandelier

No dimmer is flashover-proof.

Not sure why that is relevant to this part of the thread, if the OP puts
that dimmer on, which has soft start, and leaves the 5A fuse in place, I
expect it will be enough to prevent the fuse from blowing.

Soft start doesn't prevent filament bulbs blowing, doesn't extend their life significantly and doesn't prevent arcover.

Soft start does actually extend the life of halogen lamps. You may find
you can swap the circuit fuse going for the dimmer fuse (or the dimmer!)

It extends halogen life some, but not GLS filament. Halogen capsule lamps are very prone to arc-over, so going that route is not a good strategy. And a bit of life extension doesnt protect against arc-over failures.

If you want protection with filament lamps, you need a series transformer or an electronic solution. Or just a monster relay that can take it!


NT

On 14/11/2014 01:12, Rod Speed wrote:


"Toby" wrote in message
...
On 13/11/2014 01:58, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:22:45 PM UTC, Toby wrote:
On 12/11/2014 14:13, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 12/11/14 14:09, Dennis@home wrote:
On 12/11/2014 13:53, wrote:
My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time
because the
lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen
chandelier
and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing
fuses
means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the
halogen
chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for
them,
but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!".

Put a dimmer on the chandelier as they usually have soft start so
less
chance the lamps will blow and take out the fuse.


The lamps will take out the dimmer instead ....


Not this one, it is fine for halogens at its advertised rating (I have
200w of GU10 on one without any issues at all).
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VLIS1401.html

No dimmer is flashover-proof.


NT


Not sure why that is relevant to this part of the thread, if the OP
puts that dimmer on, which has soft start, and leaves the 5A fuse in
place, I expect it will be enough to prevent the fuse from blowing.

What he means is that WHEN you get a flashover WHEN one
of the bulbs dies, the dimmer will have to be replaced.

The dimmer on my gu10s lasted 22 years. When I took it apart a capacitor
had burnt.
As this wasn't in series with the load some fault other than a lamp
caused it.

On 14/11/2014 01:12, Rod Speed wrote:


"Toby" wrote in message
...
On 13/11/2014 01:58, wrote:
On Wednesday, November 12, 2014 8:22:45 PM UTC, Toby wrote:
On 12/11/2014 14:13, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 12/11/14 14:09, Dennis@home wrote:
On 12/11/2014 13:53, wrote:
My tenants in the shop have called me out for the third time
because the
lighting fuse blew when they turned on their miniature halogen
chandelier
and one of the lamps blew at switch-on. To me, continuously blowing
fuses
means a faulty appliance, and in this case I definitely blame the
halogen
chandelier. I hate the things. I should never have installed it for
them,
but they'd already bought it and "it looks sooooo nice!!!".

Put a dimmer on the chandelier as they usually have soft start so
less
chance the lamps will blow and take out the fuse.


The lamps will take out the dimmer instead ....


Not this one, it is fine for halogens at its advertised rating (I have
200w of GU10 on one without any issues at all).
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/VLIS1401.html

No dimmer is flashover-proof.


NT


Not sure why that is relevant to this part of the thread, if the OP
puts that dimmer on, which has soft start, and leaves the 5A fuse in
place, I expect it will be enough to prevent the fuse from blowing.

What he means is that WHEN you get a flashover WHEN one
of the bulbs dies, the dimmer will have to be replaced.

Well, all I can say is, I have had one of these touch dimmers on 200w of
GU10 for years, have changed numerous lamps when they fail, the dimmer
is fine & the 5A mcb feeding this circuit has never tripped when a lamp
has failed.

--
Toby...
Remove your pants to reply