En el artículo , John
Rumm escribió:

Using a static IP setup and not going it a default gateway is one way.

'route -f' deletes all gateways. That might work for the OP, but it
won't persist over a reboot. Maybe 'route -f -p' would.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On 19/04/14 05:44, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artÃ*culo , John
Rumm escribió:

Using a static IP setup and not going it a default gateway is one way.

'route -f' deletes all gateways. That might work for the OP, but it
won't persist over a reboot. Maybe 'route -f -p' would.


set default route to self or something arbtirary.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 19/04/14 01:07, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On 18 Apr 2014 09:51:31 GMT, Huge wrote:

TBH, it sounds like you'd be better off going to Linux.

IMO, LInux has just gone sideways over the last few years. It was
looking really promising at one point for non-nerd useability, but
just like the situation with Windows 8, oftentimes I find that an
updated version of a Linux distro is a retrograde step in at least one
significant respect. Half the problem is complexity. Operating systems
are so damn f*cking complicated.

Sigh. Yes. spent two days trying to upgrade laptop before reinstalling
the last thing that worked on it (MINT 14).

Seems that a combination of newer drivers and graphics cleverness to
support yet more eye candy, with legacy hardware, has resulted in a
video layer that either goes mad on CPU cycles* or segfaults ...

Investigation of the Asus EEPC shows that that too, stops at Mint 13, as
that was the last known release that supported its graphics driver.

Why would I need to upgrade? Once again the terrifying stranglehold of
Microsoft was the reason. I wanted to be able to read an MS word docx,
and the latest but two release of Libre office didn't understand the one
I got sent.

The later ones do, but they are only supported by later and different
versions of the underlying Ubuntu releases.


The horrifying truth is that its Microsft that is driving the
development of Linux at the eye candy desktop level, and its Microsoft
and the need to be compatible with it that is driving the development of
alternative office suites.



*like 20 seconds to respond to a mouse click...


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 19/04/14 11:24, Huge wrote:
On 2014-04-19, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On 18 Apr 2014 09:51:31 GMT, Huge wrote:

TBH, it sounds like you'd be better off going to Linux.

IMO, LInux has just gone sideways over the last few years.

And I agree. Changes for the sake of change.

Changes to match microsofts changes, rather.




--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 19/04/14 11:24, Huge wrote:
On 2014-04-19, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On 18 Apr 2014 09:51:31 GMT, Huge wrote:

TBH, it sounds like you'd be better off going to Linux.

IMO, LInux has just gone sideways over the last few years.

And I agree. Changes for the sake of change.


It's perhaps time that "the operating system" and "the GUI" became
greater separate entities in themselves, and one could be changed
without impacting the other. In a way, a Linux distribution is like that
(Gnome upon flavour of kernal) & Microsoft/Apple certainly not.

But then Ubuntu tries to import bits of Apple GUI screen candy, and
import Aero snap from Windows. Ugh.

Why are 'they' trying to turn the traditional computing desktop into a
games console?

--
Adrian C

On 19/04/14 13:28, Adrian C wrote:
On 19/04/14 11:24, Huge wrote:
On 2014-04-19, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On 18 Apr 2014 09:51:31 GMT, Huge wrote:

TBH, it sounds like you'd be better off going to Linux.

IMO, LInux has just gone sideways over the last few years.

And I agree. Changes for the sake of change.


It's perhaps time that "the operating system" and "the GUI" became
greater separate entities in themselves, and one could be changed
without impacting the other. In a way, a Linux distribution is like that
(Gnome upon flavour of kernal) & Microsoft/Apple certainly not.

Apple IS in fact a gui built on BSD unix.



But then Ubuntu tries to import bits of Apple GUI screen candy, and
import Aero snap from Windows. Ugh.

Why are 'they' trying to turn the traditional computing desktop into a
games console?


Because that's what they think people want.

Look the desktop is dying back to a niche: most people want to consume
content, not create it, and creating it with a 'soft' keyboard or in the
case of graphics, with a fingertip is actually good enough for people
who are not writing long text. I'd massively benefit from a voice
recognition that would allow me to dictate instead of type, too.

Ergo Linux people are trying at the GUI level to emulate that.

That fine as long as others are trying to get a bug free trad style
desktop as well, for 'business' use.

Xfce is perhaps the most sane of those.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

In message , Adrian C
writes
On 18/04/14 23:04, bert wrote:

Changes to the hardware environment, security exploits being found,
incompatibilities found, uncorrected faults, unexplained crashes,
trojans, viruses, users unable to install patches and updates, users
unable to pay for upgrades,
All those things are already there just maybe haven't been found yet.

They have. It's called Windows Update.

Switching off support doesn't change anything within the OS.

No?

Well I'm always willing to learn, so please explain to me how code
suddenly changes just because the authors say they are not going to
change it anymore.
--
bert

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

That fine as long as others are trying to get a bug free trad style
desktop as well, for 'business' use.

You have to hope that the coders will continue to want a sane and reliable
desktop. That's one of the things that puzzles me about Windows 8: how come
MS's own development teams didn't point out the obvious?

--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Email sent to my from-address will be deleted. Instead, please reply
to replacing "aaa" by "284".

On 19/04/14 13:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/04/14 13:28, Adrian C wrote:

It's perhaps time that "the operating system" and "the GUI" became
greater separate entities in themselves, and one could be changed
without impacting the other. In a way, a Linux distribution is like that
(Gnome upon flavour of kernal) & Microsoft/Apple certainly not.

Apple IS in fact a gui built on BSD unix.


Which are inextricably glued together. If ye wanna keep the OS current,
ye will change the desktop (and with Apple, that also means the hardware
and the rest...)

Why are 'they' trying to turn the traditional computing desktop into a
games console?


Because that's what they think people want.

Youngsters yes

Look the desktop is dying back to a niche: most people want to consume
content, not create it, and creating it with a 'soft' keyboard or in the
case of graphics, with a fingertip is actually good enough for people
who are not writing long text. I'd massively benefit from a voice
recognition that would allow me to dictate instead of type, too.

Ergo Linux people are trying at the GUI level to emulate that.

I'd much rather they got a nice TV advertising campaign* going, a
straightforward desktop, a branding with some trustworthy charity (Linux
Shelter Edition), and get the word Linux in the public perception as the
sane choice, much like Android has done.

Forget about PC manufacturers attempting that, let the grass root users
start off funding the commercials via kickstarter.

"Windows Crap? - come to Linux"

That fine as long as others are trying to get a bug free trad style
desktop as well, for 'business' use.

Xfce is perhaps the most sane of those.


--
Adrian C

On 19/04/14 13:48, bert wrote:
In message , Adrian C
writes
On 18/04/14 23:04, bert wrote:

Changes to the hardware environment, security exploits being found,
incompatibilities found, uncorrected faults, unexplained crashes,
trojans, viruses, users unable to install patches and updates, users
unable to pay for upgrades,
All those things are already there just maybe haven't been found yet.

They have. It's called Windows Update.

Switching off support doesn't change anything within the OS.

No?

Well I'm always willing to learn, so please explain to me how code
suddenly changes just because the authors say they are not going to
change it anymore.

No.

--
Adrian C

On 19/04/14 13:51, Jeremy Nicoll - news posts wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

That fine as long as others are trying to get a bug free trad style
desktop as well, for 'business' use.

You have to hope that the coders will continue to want a sane and reliable
desktop. That's one of the things that puzzles me about Windows 8: how come
MS's own development teams didn't point out the obvious?

Cos they were developing on Linux?

(I'll get my coat..)


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 13:37:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Apple IS in fact a gui built on BSD unix.

Er, are you QUITE sure about that? BSD has a poor rep for running on
mobile devices; doesn't seem like a suitable foundation for such an OS
where reliability and ease of use are key to the Apple market.

On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 14:06:09 +0100, Adrian C
wrote:

"Windows Crap? - come to Linux"

Yeah, come to Linux and get similar crap but for free.

On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 13:20:27 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Sigh. Yes. spent two days trying to upgrade laptop before reinstalling
the last thing that worked on it (MINT 14).

Seems that a combination of newer drivers and graphics cleverness to
support yet more eye candy, with legacy hardware, has resulted in a
video layer that either goes mad on CPU cycles* or segfaults ...

Investigation of the Asus EEPC shows that that too, stops at Mint 13, as
that was the last known release that supported its graphics driver.

Why would I need to upgrade? Once again the terrifying stranglehold of
Microsoft was the reason. I wanted to be able to read an MS word docx,
and the latest but two release of Libre office didn't understand the one
I got sent.

The later ones do, but they are only supported by later and different
versions of the underlying Ubuntu releases.


The horrifying truth is that its Microsft that is driving the
development of Linux at the eye candy desktop level, and its Microsoft
and the need to be compatible with it that is driving the development of

I feel your pain. Seems there's no easy way to cut oneself off from MS
dependency without a world of aggro from the inadequate alternatives.

On 19 Apr 2014 16:42:49 GMT, Huge wrote:

On 2014-04-19, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 13:37:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Apple IS in fact a gui built on BSD unix.

Er, are you QUITE sure about that? BSD has a poor rep for running on
mobile devices; doesn't seem like a suitable foundation for such an OS
where reliability and ease of use are key to the Apple market.

https://developer.apple.com/library/...hitecture.html

I'm f*cking speechless, Huge. I thought Jobs had masterminded his own
unique OS for the Ipad and whatnot from scratch! Never would have
believed BSD underlied it in a million years. SMFH in disbelief!

On 19/04/2014 17:20, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 14:06:09 +0100, Adrian C
wrote:

"Windows Crap? - come to Linux"

Yeah, come to Linux and get similar crap but for free.

I am, yet again, in the throes of trying to get Linux (Mint 16) to work
with the best hardware I can afford to record sound and video and use my
bluetooth linked phone as a 3G modem.

All "just work" under Windows with the appropriate drivers. None are
cutting edge items, and all work well with any version of Windows from
XP to 7. The reason I've tried Linux is because I want to avoid Windows
8, in the same way and for similar reasons as I dodged ME and Vista.

I will shortly be removing Linux once more and restoring the boot sector
of the HD, and possibly replacing the XP with Windows 7, pending Windows 9.

On the other hand, if I were just surfing the 'net and doing normal
office work and e-mails, I'd probably get away with using Linux. I know
this, because all the programs I use for this are open Source ones that
have been ported from Linux.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 19/04/14 17:15, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 13:37:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Apple IS in fact a gui built on BSD unix.

Er, are you QUITE sure about that? BSD has a poor rep for running on
mobile devices; doesn't seem like a suitable foundation for such an OS
where reliability and ease of use are key to the Apple market.

I WAS thinking of OS-X..let's look at IOS instead..
YUp. Based on Darwin same as OS-X


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari...rating_systems


So every I-BolloxThing is running at core level BSD UNIX.


Not sure wjherte you got te idea that BSD unix is poor on relaibilitrytho.

Praps you have better tell apple..



Linux ruins under as well as being te base of all linux desktop distros.

BSD runs under ALL apple bling. Largely IIRC for commercial reasons.


Only Microsoft has its own abortion that isn't *nix derived.

Its what runs on top that is more obvious though.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 19/04/14 17:20, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 14:06:09 +0100, Adrian C
wrote:

"Windows Crap? - come to Linux"

Yeah, come to Linux and get similar crap but for free.

:-)

There is a grain of truth in that.

Conversation with mate who sold me old acer laptop

"I sold it to you because it wouldn't run anything but XP"

"well I got it as far ans Mint 14 before I ran into hardware
compatibility issues, and that's better than XP!"

"You done all right then".





--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 19/04/14 18:38, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On 19 Apr 2014 16:42:49 GMT, Huge wrote:

On 2014-04-19, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 13:37:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Apple IS in fact a gui built on BSD unix.

Er, are you QUITE sure about that? BSD has a poor rep for running on
mobile devices; doesn't seem like a suitable foundation for such an OS
where reliability and ease of use are key to the Apple market.

https://developer.apple.com/library/...hitecture.html

I'm f*cking speechless, Huge. I thought Jobs had masterminded his own
unique OS for the Ipad and whatnot from scratch! Never would have
believed BSD underlied it in a million years. SMFH in disbelief!

What? its common knowledge that OSX and IOS are Unix with a pretty
face., Why reinvent the wheel?


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 19/04/2014 18:38, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On 19 Apr 2014 16:42:49 GMT, Huge wrote:

On 2014-04-19, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 13:37:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Apple IS in fact a gui built on BSD unix.

Er, are you QUITE sure about that? BSD has a poor rep for running on
mobile devices; doesn't seem like a suitable foundation for such an OS
where reliability and ease of use are key to the Apple market.

https://developer.apple.com/library/...hitecture.html

I'm f*cking speechless, Huge. I thought Jobs had masterminded his own
unique OS for the Ipad and whatnot from scratch! Never would have
believed BSD underlied it in a million years. SMFH in disbelief!

IIUC OS X is based on the work done at NeXT while jobs was out of the
apple frame.





--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 19/04/2014 19:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Only Microsoft has its own abortion that isn't *nix derived.

One might argue its VMS derived...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 17/04/2014 20:36, Murmansk wrote:
I went to help an elderly partially sighted lady with her new
computer.My first real experience of Windows 8.

I thought I was good with computers but I felt like I'd never used
one before and left wanting to firebomb the nearest Microsoft
office!

It's like someone taking a car and swapping the pedals round, putting
the ignition key in the rear wing and the steering wheel in the glove
box. Is Windows 8 an improvement for some? I'd like to know who they
are!!


What was the problem?
Win8 isn't much different to win7.
Its quite different to XP.

You can make it very similar to either by installing classic shell but
there isn't any real problems without it.

Just bought one of those medion netbooks from asda with win 8 on for the
wife and I won't be putting classic shell on it (looks pretty good for
the money £169 on the web but I only paid £150).

On 17/04/2014 22:49, polygonum wrote:

I am quite impressed that the whole installation process is pretty
slick. Shame that the updates (e.g. from 8 to 8.1) involve such huge
downloads - 3.6 or 3.8 GB, from memory. Fine if you have a very fast
internet connection, impossible if yours is slow.


I recently updated mine and it was 880 Mbytes.
I don't know why you would need 3600 Mbytes.

dennis@home wrote:

On 17/04/2014 22:49, polygonum wrote:

Shame that the updates (e.g. from 8 to 8.1) involve such huge
downloads - 3.6 or 3.8 GB

I recently updated mine and it was 880 Mbytes.

That sounds like the size of the recent 8.1 to 8.1U1 update, not the 8
to 8.1 update.

On 18/04/2014 10:24, Lobster wrote:

Anyone know an easy way of disabling all internet access from an XP
machine, while retaining LAN capability? That might be one short-term fix
for me.


That's what firewalls are for.
You may have one in your router.

On 19/04/2014 21:30, Andy Burns wrote:
dennis@home wrote:

On 17/04/2014 22:49, polygonum wrote:

Shame that the updates (e.g. from 8 to 8.1) involve such huge
downloads - 3.6 or 3.8 GB

I recently updated mine and it was 880 Mbytes.

That sounds like the size of the recent 8.1 to 8.1U1 update, not the 8
to 8.1 update.

I think you are right - though I didn't take much notice of the 8.1U1 size.

--
Rod

On 19/04/14 21:23, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , John
Rumm wrote:

On 19/04/2014 19:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Only Microsoft has its own abortion that isn't *nix derived.

One might argue its VMS derived...

Wasn't that the NT flavour courtesy of Dave Cutler? Even then he had to
be ordered to graft the drive letter **** on top of something that was
otherwise not bad, AIUI.

Microsofts history is having to make each new prince backwards
compatible with a royal abortion that should have been laid to rest in
around 1993.

They had the chance then with Xenix and a share in SCO to actually
create an OS that worked. They muffed it. Well on fact they didnt, they
created the whole PC-UNIX thing that lead in the end to Linux!

Every time -the same thing happened with OS/2 - they could have done an
OS-X and jumped from msdos to a better foundation they chickened out and
NT was severely compromised by being dOSSIFIED.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 19/04/14 13:28, Adrian C wrote:
On 19/04/14 11:24, Huge wrote:
On 2014-04-19, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On 18 Apr 2014 09:51:31 GMT, Huge wrote:

TBH, it sounds like you'd be better off going to Linux.

IMO, LInux has just gone sideways over the last few years.

And I agree. Changes for the sake of change.


It's perhaps time that "the operating system" and "the GUI" became
greater separate entities in themselves, and one could be changed
without impacting the other. In a way, a Linux distribution is like that
(Gnome upon flavour of kernal) & Microsoft/Apple certainly not.

Apple IS in fact a gui built on BSD unix.



But then Ubuntu tries to import bits of Apple GUI screen candy, and
import Aero snap from Windows. Ugh.

Why are 'they' trying to turn the traditional computing desktop into a
games console?


Because that's what they think people want.

Look the desktop is dying back to a niche: most people want to consume
content, not create it, and creating it with a 'soft' keyboard or in the
case of graphics, with a fingertip is actually good enough for people
who are not writing long text. I'd massively benefit from a voice
recognition that would allow me to dictate instead of type, too.

Ergo Linux people are trying at the GUI level to emulate that.

That fine as long as others are trying to get a bug free trad style
desktop as well, for 'business' use.

Xfce is perhaps the most sane of those.



and Xubuntu is the best of all, why it is less popular then all the other
buntus is a mystery to me.

-

On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 19:35:17 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 19/04/14 17:15, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 13:37:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher

Apple IS in fact a gui built on BSD unix.

Er, are you QUITE sure about that? BSD has a poor rep for running on
mobile devices; doesn't seem like a suitable foundation for such an OS
where reliability and ease of use are key to the Apple market.

I WAS thinking of OS-X..let's look at IOS instead..
YUp. Based on Darwin same as OS-X


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compari...rating_systems


So every I-BolloxThing is running at core level BSD UNIX.


Not sure wjherte you got te idea that BSD unix is poor on relaibilitrytho.

Praps you have better tell apple.

Not forgetting the NAS4Free developers and their user base too.
--
Regards, J B Good

On 19/04/2014 21:23, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , John
Rumm wrote:

On 19/04/2014 19:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Only Microsoft has its own abortion that isn't *nix derived.

One might argue its VMS derived...

Wasn't that the NT flavour courtesy of Dave Cutler? Even then he had to
be ordered to graft the drive letter **** on top of something that was
otherwise not bad, AIUI.

Yup... in fact the native Win NT API even shares many system call names
with VMS. (The Win32 which people often mistake for the windows native
API was supposed to be just one of many possible APIs including POSIX)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 19/04/14 18:46, John Williamson wrote:
On 19/04/2014 17:20, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 14:06:09 +0100, Adrian C
wrote:

"Windows Crap? - come to Linux"

Yeah, come to Linux and get similar crap but for free.

I am, yet again, in the throes of trying to get Linux (Mint 16) to work
with the best hardware I can afford to record sound and video and use my
bluetooth linked phone as a 3G modem.


You'd probably be better off with an audio focused linux distribution,
not Mint - that's eye candy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ns_and_Add-Ons

All "just work" under Windows with the appropriate drivers. None are
cutting edge items, and all work well with any version of Windows from
XP to 7. The reason I've tried Linux is because I want to avoid Windows
8, in the same way and for similar reasons as I dodged ME and Vista.

I will shortly be removing Linux once more and restoring the boot sector
of the HD, and possibly replacing the XP with Windows 7, pending Windows 9.

On the other hand, if I were just surfing the 'net and doing normal
office work and e-mails, I'd probably get away with using Linux. I know
this, because all the programs I use for this are open Source ones that
have been ported from Linux.


Some distributions of Linux already have appropriate drivers preloaded,
just need to choose the right one - or understand how to compile them in
(or create as modules) from source. Then you can be happy using any
distribution.

Just takes a bit of googling with the hardware IDs (lspci, lsusb) of the
equipment you have, and delving deeper. I find tinkering with driver
code fun, and have even fixed a few hardware things in the past.

If you are fed up of "restoring boot sectors" investigate virtualization
or purchasing an old ex-corporate true dual core desktop, available for
less than 100 squids.

--
Adrian C

On 20/04/2014 11:14, Huge wrote:
On 2014-04-19, John Williamson wrote:
On 19/04/2014 17:20, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 14:06:09 +0100, Adrian C
wrote:

"Windows Crap? - come to Linux"

Yeah, come to Linux and get similar crap but for free.

I am, yet again, in the throes of trying to get Linux (Mint 16) to work
with the best hardware I can afford to record sound and video and use my
bluetooth linked phone as a 3G modem.

All "just work" under Windows with the appropriate drivers.

Except of course they don't "just work" under Windows, do they? Until you
add the weasel words "with appropriate drivers".


Still a darn site better than not working *at all* under any flavour of
Linux, no matter what you do, short of writing and compiling a driver
package or using the Windows driver with an emulation package, which
only works in a small percentage of cases that I've tried.

I've been doing the same with Linux since the days when it came on a
pair of floppies, and I've had the same results every time. Install,
find it won't work, uninstall it, go back to DOS and Windows. If the
compilers use something, it works, if they don't you'd better learn low
level programming.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 11:42:53 +0100, Adrian C
wrote:

Some distributions of Linux already have appropriate drivers preloaded,
just need to choose the right one - or understand how to compile them in
(or create as modules) from source. Then you can be happy using any
distribution.

Just takes a bit of googling with the hardware IDs (lspci, lsusb) of the
equipment you have, and delving deeper. I find tinkering with driver
code fun, and have even fixed a few hardware things in the past.

This is the core of the problem. YOU may find it "fun" tinkering
around with drivers, compiling source and installing libraries and
whatnot, but to most of us, we just want an OS that works out of the
box with minimal - if any - issues. For most of us, trying to get an
installation set up to be fully compatible with our hardware and to
configure it just the way we want is a king-sized PITA. Particularly
so in so many cases where you reach the point where you can't justify
wasting any further time with it and realise all your efforts up to
that point have been in vain.
Personally I just want to get some *work* done with a computer - I'll
get my "fun" elsewhere.

On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 19:38:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


What? its common knowledge that OSX and IOS are Unix with a pretty
face., Why reinvent the wheel?

OH, well that's ****ed it for me, then. I was going to switch to BSD
on the basis that because (so I thought) so few people used it no
malware writers would be interested in it. Is there no escape?

On 20/04/2014 11:42, Adrian C wrote:
On 19/04/14 18:46, John Williamson wrote:
On 19/04/2014 17:20, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 14:06:09 +0100, Adrian C
wrote:

"Windows Crap? - come to Linux"

Yeah, come to Linux and get similar crap but for free.

I am, yet again, in the throes of trying to get Linux (Mint 16) to work
with the best hardware I can afford to record sound and video and use my
bluetooth linked phone as a 3G modem.


You'd probably be better off with an audio focused linux distribution,
not Mint - that's eye candy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ns_and_Add-Ons

I've tried Ubuntu studio and that didn't work either, as the low level
support isn't there for the stuff I use. It worked with the motherboard
sound, but the best available from the outboard sound was two channels
at 16 bits and 44.1 kHz out of the four available at 24 bits and 48 kHz.


All "just work" under Windows with the appropriate drivers. None are
cutting edge items, and all work well with any version of Windows from
XP to 7. The reason I've tried Linux is because I want to avoid Windows
8, in the same way and for similar reasons as I dodged ME and Vista.

I will shortly be removing Linux once more and restoring the boot sector
of the HD, and possibly replacing the XP with Windows 7, pending
Windows 9.

On the other hand, if I were just surfing the 'net and doing normal
office work and e-mails, I'd probably get away with using Linux. I know
this, because all the programs I use for this are open Source ones that
have been ported from Linux.


Some distributions of Linux already have appropriate drivers preloaded,
just need to choose the right one - or understand how to compile them in
(or create as modules) from source. Then you can be happy using any
distribution.

I managed to get the phone working by using a script to invoke pppd and
other network layers after installing a number of packages. Once.

Just takes a bit of googling with the hardware IDs (lspci, lsusb) of the
equipment you have, and delving deeper. I find tinkering with driver
code fun, and have even fixed a few hardware things in the past.

I don't find it fun, and would rather get on with using the computer.

If you are fed up of "restoring boot sectors" investigate virtualization
or purchasing an old ex-corporate true dual core desktop, available for
less than 100 squids.

Shrug I'm not so much fed up of restoring the boot sector, that takes
a few seconds with a boot CD. What ****es me off is that Linux doesn't
work for me, and never has except for the most basic functions. For
example, I am using the same mail folders and news folders for
Thunderbird on both Mint and XP, and can use either with no problems,
and even keep track of read articles when I switch platforms. Similarly,
with documents, Libre Office works in exactly the same way on both
platforms. Then I connect a video camera and try to edit some video, or
connect the USB soundcard, and it doesn't work. It works with the stills
as long as I save them as jpegs in camera, but last time I fired the
GIMP up, it choked on the RAW format files from the camera as the camera
is too new to be supported.

Incidentally, I've been going through this cycle since Linux came on a
couple of floppies glued to the front of the magazines. In those days,
it was normally the graphics card I couldn't get X to run on, although I
did once manage to get a 486 running X while hosting a couple of text
terminals, both running under Windows terminal on the other end of some
thin ethernet, running adventure on the server.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Sun, 20 Apr 2014 15:01:38 +0200, Cursitor Doom
wrote:

On Sat, 19 Apr 2014 19:38:59 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


What? its common knowledge that OSX and IOS are Unix with a pretty
face., Why reinvent the wheel?

OH, well that's ****ed it for me, then. I was going to switch to BSD
on the basis that because (so I thought) so few people used it no
malware writers would be interested in it. Is there no escape?

There's no such thing as a "Totally Proofed Against Malware" OS (but
*nix based distros come a very close second to this ideal).

It's not just the "Security by Obscurity" effect at work here but
it's the main factor in deflecting interest by the Russian Mafia
backed malware efforts whilst Microsoft keep providing them with
monocloned targets counted in the billions, 99.9% of which are in the
hands of the computer illiterati.

Even if *nix based OSes manage to achieve a 'market penetration' that
reaches a double digit percentage share where it might look like a
worthwhile challenge for the scamware developers to spend time on, the
more secure by design (even that compromised by distros such as Ubuntu
and its derivatives) nature will provide a dampening of such interest
to all but the cleverest of lone hackers out to prove a point on their
own terms rather than to a criminal gang leader's agenda.

If you're prepared to put the effort into learning even just the
basic concepts of computers and their OS features, the payback is well
worth the effort (even more so for users brave enough to put their
trust in MS windows!). Theres on gain without pain. :-)
--
Regards, J B Good

On 20/04/2014 16:11, Huge wrote:
On 2014-04-20, John Williamson wrote:

Incidentally, I've been going through this cycle since Linux came on a
couple of floppies glued to the front of the magazines.

So what? Those days are long gone.

Except that IME, the cycle still stays the same. Install, it doesn't do
what I want to do, uninstall.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 20/04/2014 16:11, Huge wrote:
On 2014-04-20, John Williamson wrote:

Shrug I'm not so much fed up of restoring the boot sector, that takes
a few seconds with a boot CD. What ****es me off is that Linux doesn't
work for me, and never has except for the most basic functions. For
example, I am using the same mail folders and news folders for
Thunderbird on both Mint and XP, and can use either with no problems,
and even keep track of read articles when I switch platforms. Similarly,
with documents, Libre Office works in exactly the same way on both
platforms. Then I connect a video camera and try to edit some video, or
connect the USB soundcard, and it doesn't work. It works with the stills
as long as I save them as jpegs in camera, but last time I fired the
GIMP up, it choked on the RAW format files from the camera as the camera
is too new to be supported.

None of this is anything to do with Linux, per se.

I know that Linux is just the kernel, and what I am using is GNU, and
the kernel is nice and stable...

In the same way, most people don't differentiate between the kernel and
the UI in Windows or OS X.

Oh, and I quite happily edit videos with Linux - I bought a Firewire
card, 99p on eBay, plug in my camera & copy the video off it. I also
have a GoPro, which I just copy the MP4 files from. I have a choice
of editors. It all "just worked".

Once it's in there, it does "just work". The problem I have is actually
getting the stuff onto the computer in the first place.

I can record sound and video on a standalone recorder and copy the files
by (sometimes) connecting the recorder or (Almost always when using
removable media), but that's not always the way I need to work.

I have seen a question in a forum asking how to transfer RAW files from
a camera of the same make as mine. The answer was to install the UFRAW
plugin, and all will be well. I get "Unsupported file format", even with
the latest version. Apparently, my camera is too new as of a couple of
months ago, so it's not yet supported. It works on the older camera I
have, but that has died due to a known hardware design fault, and is,
effectively, unrepairable.

As for editing raw stills, I don't do that, but I get 9,000,000 hits for
a Google search for "Linux raw graphics".

I conclude that the error is between keyboard and chair.


Conclude all you like. Linux is good for some jobs, and totally useless
for what I want to do.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 20/04/2014 17:32, Huge wrote:
On 2014-04-20, John Williamson wrote:
On 20/04/2014 16:11, Huge wrote:

Oh, and I quite happily edit videos with Linux - I bought a Firewire
card, 99p on eBay, plug in my camera & copy the video off it. I also
have a GoPro, which I just copy the MP4 files from. I have a choice
of editors. It all "just worked".

Once it's in there, it does "just work". The problem I have is actually
getting the stuff onto the computer in the first place.

It just worked. Plugged camera in. Typed "dvgrab", away it went.

Conclude all you like. Linux is good for some jobs, and totally useless
for what I want to do.

I don't believe you. Or at least, I suspect you're bitching because your
Ford spares won't fit on your Rover car.


More because I keep getting told it's the best thing since sliced bread,
and I keep finding out it's not sliced, and isn't real bread anyway.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 20/04/14 21:04, John Williamson wrote:
On 20/04/2014 17:32, Huge wrote:
On 2014-04-20, John Williamson wrote:
On 20/04/2014 16:11, Huge wrote:

I don't believe you. Or at least, I suspect you're bitching because your
Ford spares won't fit on your Rover car.


More because I keep getting told it's the best thing since sliced bread,
and I keep finding out it's not sliced, and isn't real bread anyway.


Proprietary hardware is not the best thing either. But give it time, the
seemingly esoteric stuff will eventually be supported.

Don't forget, installing and configuring operating systems was never
meant to be an end user job. Some one skilled in that would certainly
give you a working system with your hardware if you couldn't. If time is
money, then either seek them out or put up with what works.

And if that be Windows for you then so be it. Peace.

--
Adrian C