So reading into these wifi thermostat things, I learned that some of
them can also control wireless TRVs to more precisely regulate the
temperature of individual rooms according to a schedule.

Our house has two heating zones as a result of the house basically being
in two halves and having an oil boiler heating each half. But that still
leaves plenty of scope for having rooms having their own schedules. Our
oil bills are high enough that I think something as costly as a load of
wireless TRVs could be worth the effort.

Does anyone have this working and if you do, what devices did you choose?

Jon Connell wrote:

So reading into these wifi thermostat things, I learned that some of
them can also control wireless TRVs to more precisely regulate the
temperature of individual rooms according to a schedule.

Our house has two heating zones as a result of the house basically being
in two halves and having an oil boiler heating each half. But that still
leaves plenty of scope for having rooms having their own schedules. Our
oil bills are high enough that I think something as costly as a load of
wireless TRVs could be worth the effort.

Does anyone have this working and if you do, what devices did you choose?

I have a couple of these

http://www.conrad-electronic.co.uk/c...-Radio-Exhaust

(The "Radio Exhaust" is actually a radiator bleeding device, and
this combination is £10 cheaper than one without the freebie)

They seem to work as anticipated.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

Chris J Dixon wrote:

Jon Connell wrote:

So reading into these wifi thermostat things, I learned that some
of them can also control wireless TRVs

I have a couple of these
http://www.conrad-electronic.co.uk/c...-Radio-Exhaust

So these things replace the TRV head and depress/release the plunger
automatically several times a day, all from coin cells? How long do the
batteries last?

Andy Burns wrote:

Chris J Dixon wrote:

I have a couple of these
http://www.conrad-electronic.co.uk/c...-Radio-Exhaust

So these things replace the TRV head and depress/release the plunger
automatically several times a day, all from coin cells? How long do the
batteries last?

2 x AA actually - they last months.

The mechanism is driven by a small motor, which makes incremental
adjustments as required.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

Chris J Dixon wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

all from coin cells?

2 x AA actually

Ahh, I took the "other people also bought 20 pack of coin cells"
suggestion too seriously ...

In message , Chris J Dixon
writes
Jon Connell wrote:

So reading into these wifi thermostat things, I learned that some of
them can also control wireless TRVs to more precisely regulate the
temperature of individual rooms according to a schedule.

Our house has two heating zones as a result of the house basically being
in two halves and having an oil boiler heating each half. But that still
leaves plenty of scope for having rooms having their own schedules. Our
oil bills are high enough that I think something as costly as a load of
wireless TRVs could be worth the effort.

Does anyone have this working and if you do, what devices did you choose?

I have a couple of these

http://www.conrad-electronic.co.uk/c...nrad-Wireless-
Heater-Thermostat-Set-and-Radio-Exhaust

(The "Radio Exhaust" is actually a radiator bleeding device, and
this combination is £10 cheaper than one without the freebie)

They seem to work as anticipated.

Ah, I was going to try that out in our living room. good to know they
work ok.

There is some sort of open source project using the Conrad valves.

http://www.earth.org.uk/open-source-...tic-radiator-v
alve.html


--
Chris French

On Monday 18 November 2013 17:25 Jon Connell wrote in uk.d-i-y:

So reading into these wifi thermostat things, I learned that some of
them can also control wireless TRVs to more precisely regulate the
temperature of individual rooms according to a schedule.

Our house has two heating zones as a result of the house basically being
in two halves and having an oil boiler heating each half. But that still
leaves plenty of scope for having rooms having their own schedules. Our
oil bills are high enough that I think something as costly as a load of
wireless TRVs could be worth the effort.

Does anyone have this working and if you do, what devices did you choose?

"Z-Wave" seems to be some sort of emerging standard for radio home
automation:

http://www.uk-automation.co.uk/produ...urotronic.html

http://zwave-products.co.uk/shop/cat...9/Heating.html

I have not figured out all of the comboinations yet - but it's looks like
it's worth a read...

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

On Monday 18 November 2013 18:25 Andy Burns wrote in uk.d-i-y:

Chris J Dixon wrote:

Jon Connell wrote:

So reading into these wifi thermostat things, I learned that some
of them can also control wireless TRVs

I have a couple of these
http://www.conrad-electronic.co.uk/c...-Radio-Exhaust

So these things replace the TRV head and depress/release the plunger
automatically several times a day, all from coin cells? How long do the
batteries last?

AA's usually and 1-2 years claimed.

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Tim Watts wrote:

"Z-Wave" seems to be some sort of emerging standard for radio home
automation:

Yes, I'm considering using a Fibaro FGD211 dimmer module, not for the
z-wave interface but simply as small dimmer module that will work 2-way
from momentary pull ceiling switches.

The central radio hub seemed to be around 500 notes ... sod that for now.

Andy Burns wrote:

The central radio hub seemed to be around 500 notes ... sod that for now.

At £41 a Z-stick is still a bit steep for a USB dongle, but more
tempting and linux friendly ...

On Monday 18 November 2013 20:06 Andy Burns wrote in uk.d-i-y:

Andy Burns wrote:

The central radio hub seemed to be around 500 notes ... sod that for now.

At £41 a Z-stick is still a bit steep for a USB dongle, but more
tempting and linux friendly ...

I'm looking for a room timer/stat that can be paired with either the Danfoss
or Stella-Z valve.

I'd prefer to have most of the system independant (OK, the boiler relay is a
point of failure). So far most of the room stats seem to be stats only...

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

"Jon Connell" wrote in message
...
So reading into these wifi thermostat things, I learned that some of them
can also control wireless TRVs to more precisely regulate the temperature
of individual rooms according to a schedule.

Our house has two heating zones as a result of the house basically being
in two halves and having an oil boiler heating each half. But that still
leaves plenty of scope for having rooms having their own schedules. Our
oil bills are high enough that I think something as costly as a load of
wireless TRVs could be worth the effort.

Does anyone have this working and if you do, what devices did you choose?


So what's the point of such an expensive device?
Is there a heat sensor in each room?


Money could probably be spent elsewhere to greater benefit.

On Tuesday 19 November 2013 06:34 harryagain wrote in uk.d-i-y:


"Jon Connell" wrote in message
...
So reading into these wifi thermostat things, I learned that some of them
can also control wireless TRVs to more precisely regulate the temperature
of individual rooms according to a schedule.

Our house has two heating zones as a result of the house basically being
in two halves and having an oil boiler heating each half. But that still
leaves plenty of scope for having rooms having their own schedules. Our
oil bills are high enough that I think something as costly as a load of
wireless TRVs could be worth the effort.

Does anyone have this working and if you do, what devices did you choose?


So what's the point of such an expensive device?
Is there a heat sensor in each room?


Money could probably be spent elsewhere to greater benefit.

Maybe he wants the comfort and convenience...

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

On 18/11/2013 19:31, Tim Watts wrote:
"Z-Wave" seems to be some sort of emerging standard for radio home
automation:

http://www.uk-automation.co.uk/produ...urotronic.html

http://zwave-products.co.uk/shop/cat...9/Heating.html

I have not figured out all of the comboinations yet - but it's looks like
it's worth a read...

I hope these things work better together than DECT phones. I've yet to
see two DECT phones work together.

Nice to see some standardisation though. I was interested in this:

http://evohome.honeywell.com

(I have Apple stuff, so I am a sucker who is easily sold on pretty
interfaces)

No mention of Z-Wave though :S

On Tuesday 19 November 2013 08:27 Jon Connell wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On 18/11/2013 19:31, Tim Watts wrote:
"Z-Wave" seems to be some sort of emerging standard for radio home
automation:

http://www.uk-automation.co.uk/produ...urotronic.html

http://zwave-products.co.uk/shop/cat...9/Heating.html

I have not figured out all of the comboinations yet - but it's looks like
it's worth a read...

I hope these things work better together than DECT phones. I've yet to
see two DECT phones work together.

Nice to see some standardisation though. I was interested in this:

http://evohome.honeywell.com

(I have Apple stuff, so I am a sucker who is easily sold on pretty
interfaces)

No mention of Z-Wave though :S

It is not ZWave - but there will (claimed) be an API for remote something.

It does look highly polished - as Honeywell products are.

I hope they make it easy to buy - previously they had been selling in the UK
via a single distrubutor so it was actually cheaper/easier to buy direct
from Germany!

One other comment - the radio protocol used buy the HR80 family was pretty
simple and robust against missed messages, despite being simplex.

One of the faults with the Conrad FHT system is it is also simplex, throuws
out the message 3 times and has no inherent stability against missed
messages - a problem apparantly when you get much beyond 8-10 zones as the
probability of packet collision is now very high.

Whilst Honeywell will never open the radio protocol, it is likely to be
fairly well designed.
--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

On 19/11/2013 06:34, harryagain wrote:
So what's the point of such an expensive device?

Not heating rooms unnecessarily ought to pay back the investment cost.
Same argument as LED lighting, which is also freakin' expensive.

Is there a heat sensor in each room?

Yes.

Money could probably be spent elsewhere to greater benefit.

The only other thing that would have significant impact on my heating
bills would be better insulation. We have brick walls with no cavities
and a roof with unknown levels of insulation (no loft). My current
estimates on retrofitting insulation suggest that it would actually be
cheaper to carry on burning oil!

"Jon Connell" wrote in message
...
On 19/11/2013 06:34, harryagain wrote:
So what's the point of such an expensive device?

Not heating rooms unnecessarily ought to pay back the investment cost.
Same argument as LED lighting, which is also freakin' expensive.

Is there a heat sensor in each room?

Yes.

Money could probably be spent elsewhere to greater benefit.

The only other thing that would have significant impact on my heating
bills would be better insulation. We have brick walls with no cavities and
a roof with unknown levels of insulation (no loft). My current estimates
on retrofitting insulation suggest that it would actually be cheaper to
carry on burning oil!

Well you should be fitting internal or external insulation.
No calculation can be made as the future price of oil is unknown so that is
a foolish remark.
It also depends on how long you intend to stay.
It will add value to the house as the energy efficiency rating will be
raised.
My own house had solid walls. It now has no heating bill after extensive
insulation.

On 18/11/2013 17:25, Jon Connell wrote:
So reading into these wifi thermostat things, I learned that some of
them can also control wireless TRVs to more precisely regulate the
temperature of individual rooms according to a schedule.

Our house has two heating zones as a result of the house basically being
in two halves and having an oil boiler heating each half. But that still
leaves plenty of scope for having rooms having their own schedules. Our
oil bills are high enough that I think something as costly as a load of
wireless TRVs could be worth the effort.

Does anyone have this working and if you do, what devices did you choose?


What you want is a room stat that will switch the radiator valve on and
switch the boiler "demand" on at the same time. Just like a zone valve.

If you can't switch demand on when needed the radiator won't get hot.
The alternative of running the boiler all the time heat might be needed
isn't such a good idea but better than plain TRVs.

On 19/11/2013 10:17, Jon Connell wrote:
On 19/11/2013 06:34, harryagain wrote:
So what's the point of such an expensive device?

Not heating rooms unnecessarily ought to pay back the investment cost.
Same argument as LED lighting, which is also freakin' expensive.

Is there a heat sensor in each room?

Yes.

Money could probably be spent elsewhere to greater benefit.

The only other thing that would have significant impact on my heating
bills would be better insulation. We have brick walls with no cavities
and a roof with unknown levels of insulation (no loft). My current
estimates on retrofitting insulation suggest that it would actually be
cheaper to carry on burning oil!

You need to look at the green deal.
You can now get external insulation.
It probably won't save a fortune but it should reduce heat loss, make
you more comfortable and not increase your bills.

You may benefit from a heat pump and remove the oil at the same time.

(I have Apple stuff, so I am a sucker who is easily sold on pretty

interfaces)


I hope you now regret it.

Jonathan

In message , harryagain
writes

"Jon Connell" wrote in message
...
On 19/11/2013 06:34, harryagain wrote:
So what's the point of such an expensive device?

Not heating rooms unnecessarily ought to pay back the investment cost.
Same argument as LED lighting, which is also freakin' expensive.

Is there a heat sensor in each room?

Yes.

Money could probably be spent elsewhere to greater benefit.

The only other thing that would have significant impact on my heating
bills would be better insulation. We have brick walls with no cavities and
a roof with unknown levels of insulation (no loft). My current estimates
on retrofitting insulation suggest that it would actually be cheaper to
carry on burning oil!

Well you should be fitting internal or external insulation.
No calculation can be made as the future price of oil is unknown so that is
a foolish remark.


And your's is a foolish reply.

Both are expensive, internal is very disruptive unless done when a room
is being redecorated/renovated, and often not so practical. Our house is
Victorian, with lots of nice Victorian cornices , skirting etc. a listed
building in a conservation area. Moslty internal and external insulation
or out. Though I might do the kitchen when ever we redo it.
--
Chris French

On 19/11/2013 16:03, harryagain wrote:
Well you should be fitting internal or external insulation.
No calculation can be made as the future price of oil is unknown so that is
a foolish remark.
It also depends on how long you intend to stay.
It will add value to the house as the energy efficiency rating will be
raised.

I'll ring you up when I write the case to English Heritage for the
modifications then. I'm sure they'll be understanding about my new
carbuncle.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 21:20:32 +0000, chris French wrote:

Our house is Victorian, with lots of nice Victorian cornices , skirting
etc. a listed building in a conservation area.

Grade 1 or 2? Conservation area is bad enough, listed ...

Bear in mind that you only really need to insulate external walls.
That may mean only one or two walls per room internally. It's still
disruptive but possibly not as bad as you think.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 20:14:25 +0000, dennis@home wrote:

My current estimates on retrofitting insulation suggest that it
would
actually be cheaper to carry on burning oil!

You need to look at the green deal.
You can now get external insulation.
It probably won't save a fortune but it should reduce heat loss, make
you more comfortable and not increase your bills.

Er, you do know how the loan for the "Green Deal" is paid back don't
you?
By adding the payments to your electricty bill, in theory the savings
made elsewhere cover this increase but there is *no* guarantee. Oh
and the interest rate on the loan is likely to be in the 6 to 9%
range. Be cheaper to add it to you mortgage...

You may benefit from a heat pump and remove the oil at the same time.

Only really practical if you have wet UFH, retro fitting UFH is far
more disruptive than a few bits of PIR foam boards on the inside of
external walls.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 20/11/2013 22:17, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 20:14:25 +0000, dennis@home wrote:

My current estimates on retrofitting insulation suggest that it
would
actually be cheaper to carry on burning oil!

You need to look at the green deal.
You can now get external insulation.
It probably won't save a fortune but it should reduce heat loss, make
you more comfortable and not increase your bills.

Er, you do know how the loan for the "Green Deal" is paid back don't
you?
By adding the payments to your electricty bill, in theory the savings
made elsewhere cover this increase but there is *no* guarantee.

There is a guarantee that you won't pay more than the estimated savings.

Oh
and the interest rate on the loan is likely to be in the 6 to 9%
range. Be cheaper to add it to you mortgage...

That means you borrow the cash and have to repay it.
The green deal loans are on the utility bill and in theory you will
never pay any more than you would have had to pay for your energy.


You may benefit from a heat pump and remove the oil at the same time.

Only really practical if you have wet UFH, retro fitting UFH is far
more disruptive than a few bits of PIR foam boards on the inside of
external walls.

Gets rid of the oil though and the newer heat pumps can work with wet
radiator systems without too much extra energy costs.

On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 22:54:37 +0000, dennis@home wrote:

By adding the payments to your electricity bill, in theory the
savings
made elsewhere cover this increase but there is *no* guarantee.

There is a guarantee that you won't pay more than the estimated savings.

The loan and repayments are set up based on *estimated* and "average"
savings, if those savings don't materialise the repayments are not
capped.

Oh and the interest rate on the loan is likely to be in the 6 to
9%
range. Be cheaper to add it to you mortgage...

That means you borrow the cash and have to repay it.

That is all the Green Deal is, a loan that you repay plus interest by
a charge on the properties electricity bill. Note it is linked to the
property not the current occupier. Why pay 6 to 9% interest on a
Green Deal loan when you could add it to your mortgage at less than
4%? It's still linked to the property but not in a way that may well
put off prospective buyers. I know that given a choice between two
similar properties one with Green Deal one without the one with Green
Deal would have to have something more than just "similar".

The green deal loans are on the utility bill and in theory you will
never pay any more than you would have had to pay for your energy.

Key and operative words "in theory". There is no guarantee that if
the actual savings are not as much as loan payments the payments are
capped at the actual savings. This is the major problem with Green
Deal, the loan is setup using *average* savings for the type of works
done. By definition of average some will win some will lose. My maths
knowledge doesn't tell me if an "average" always has half the points
below and half the points above, if it does it's a 50:50 chance that
you'll lose (or win if you are half full glass person). Even if an
average isn't mathematically half and half I suspect the distribution
of points is fairly symmetrical thus making any error on the 50:50
small.

You may benefit from a heat pump and remove the oil at the same
time.

Only really practical if you have wet UFH, retro fitting UFH is
far
more disruptive than a few bits of PIR foam boards on the inside
of
external walls.

Gets rid of the oil though and the newer heat pumps can work with wet
radiator systems without too much extra energy costs.

No such thing as a free lunch. If the building needs 30 kWHr to keep
it warm that energy has to come from somewhere either oil at 6p/kwHr,
(80% efficient boiler make that 7.5p/kWHr or electricity 12p/kWHr
(COP of 3, 4p/kWHr) but with significant disruption and capital cost
for a UFH system.

The heat pump might be 4p/kWHr cheaper than oil or about £1.20/day in
the winter but nothing at all in the summer, no space heating
required. Making the crude assumption of 6 months "summer" and 6
months "winter", that is just over £200/year saving on a capital cost
of maybe £5000+, 25+ year payback... It'll be worse for a heat pump
driven wet radiator system as the COP will be lower, not as
disruptive to install but how much more expensive the 2 stage heat
pump will be in capital and running I'm not sure.

Heat pump in a new build with high insulation levels and designed in
fine but retro fit is hard to make economic in a sensible time scale.
Yes oil prices will go up, it's roughly trebled in 13 years. However
electricity has also gone up, around double over the same time
period. ICBA to factor those price rises into a projection on the
above 25 year payback.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In message o.uk, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Tue, 19 Nov 2013 21:20:32 +0000, chris French wrote:

Our house is Victorian, with lots of nice Victorian cornices , skirting
etc. a listed building in a conservation area.

Grade 1 or 2? Conservation area is bad enough, listed ...

:-)

Grade 2. It's ok, we knew what we were getting into when we bought it
:-) And our LA conservation people seem ok. Though we've not wanted to
to do anything outrageous. The only restriction we've really had was on
the style of the replacement conservatory Though they were happy for us
to pull down the old rotting, literally falling down one and replace it
with a nice new double glazed one.

Bear in mind that you only really need to insulate external walls.
That may mean only one or two walls per room internally. It's still
disruptive but possibly not as bad as you think.

It's not so much the disruption that puts me off - I would wait until
rooms are re-decorated anyway. it's the nice ceiling cornices and other
features. Not insurmountable, but adds to the cost and complexity of the
job. And two of the key rooms have 3 external walls

I have done the bathroom wall though as I've been refitting that.

--
Chris French

On 21/11/2013 10:02, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2013 22:54:37 +0000, dennis@home wrote:

By adding the payments to your electricity bill, in theory the
savings
made elsewhere cover this increase but there is *no* guarantee.

There is a guarantee that you won't pay more than the estimated savings.

The loan and repayments are set up based on *estimated* and "average"
savings, if those savings don't materialise the repayments are not
capped.

They are capped, in fact they are fixed.
The savings appear to be based on a low side estimate so most people
should exceed them.


Oh and the interest rate on the loan is likely to be in the 6 to
9%
range. Be cheaper to add it to you mortgage...

That means you borrow the cash and have to repay it.

That is all the Green Deal is, a loan that you repay plus interest by
a charge on the properties electricity bill. Note it is linked to the
property not the current occupier. Why pay 6 to 9% interest on a
Green Deal loan when you could add it to your mortgage at less than
4%? It's still linked to the property but not in a way that may well
put off prospective buyers. I know that given a choice between two
similar properties one with Green Deal one without the one with Green
Deal would have to have something more than just "similar".

The green deal loans are on the utility bill and in theory you will
never pay any more than you would have had to pay for your energy.

Key and operative words "in theory". There is no guarantee that if
the actual savings are not as much as loan payments the payments are
capped at the actual savings. This is the major problem with Green
Deal, the loan is setup using *average* savings for the type of works
done. By definition of average some will win some will lose. My maths
knowledge doesn't tell me if an "average" always has half the points
below and half the points above, if it does it's a 50:50 chance that
you'll lose (or win if you are half full glass person). Even if an
average isn't mathematically half and half I suspect the distribution
of points is fairly symmetrical thus making any error on the 50:50
small.

From what I have seen the savings are calculated well below typical.
You can apply and not go ahead if you don't think you will save.


You may benefit from a heat pump and remove the oil at the same
time.

Only really practical if you have wet UFH, retro fitting UFH is
far
more disruptive than a few bits of PIR foam boards on the inside
of
external walls.

Gets rid of the oil though and the newer heat pumps can work with wet
radiator systems without too much extra energy costs.

No such thing as a free lunch.

True, but do you see how much harry gets for "free"?

If the building needs 30 kWHr to keep
it warm that energy has to come from somewhere either oil at 6p/kwHr,
(80% efficient boiler make that 7.5p/kWHr or electricity 12p/kWHr
(COP of 3, 4p/kWHr) but with significant disruption and capital cost
for a UFH system.

The heat pump might be 4p/kWHr cheaper than oil or about £1.20/day in
the winter but nothing at all in the summer, no space heating
required.

The two stage ones will do hot water if wanted.