On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 02:37:05 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 20/12/12 02:16, John Rumm wrote:
On 19/12/2012 23:06, geoff wrote:
In message , Stephen H
writes
On 19/12/2012 00:12, geoff wrote:
In message , Stephen H
writes

Tesco do system boxes from 300 quid upwards and laptops from 270 quid
upwards. I could not match let alone beat that price wise for a self
build now.

But you can tailor it to your requirements (to an extent)


yes you can tailor it to ones requirements and you pay more for the
privilege of doing so


Lets see now

£250 for something that does what I want
£200 for something that doesn't

hard call ...

The reality is that the margin on PC components is tiny - so the cost
difference between a self built PC and a bought one *of the same spec*
will often be under 5%. The way the prebuilt systems manage to look
cheaper is usually by cutting corners on some of the components. You
also have to contend with the fact that you may spend as long
uninstalling the unwanted shovelware preloaded on a boxed system, as you
would installing the OS yourself from scratch.


well I just costed up a case, PSU MB (2GHz dual core celeron) 4GB ram
DVD RW and 500GB drive Nvidia graphics at £266 all in. Thats pretty much
the same as I have here, and its plenty fast enough for all but weird
gaming ****.


http://www.woc.co.uk

Ok add another £80 for windoze, which I personally wouldn't..Linux!

You could shave a bit off that for less RAM & hard drive, and use the
rather ordinary onboard graffix.

I would never advise skimping on RAM. Recent (Vista & 7) versions of
Windoze are very greedy when it comes to memory.


The problem with buying an 'all in' system is you tend to get an LCD
monitor and keyboard and mouse that you probably don't need.

And a crappy motherboard and PSU.

--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) If a man stands in a forest and no woman is around
(")_(") is he still wrong?

Prior to that, I had tried to give older machines away to charity, but no-one
wanted them - they all wanted up-to-date machines with recent Windows licenses.
So they went in the crusher, too.


Correct me if I'm wrong but these days isn't all the data held one
central servers and the like, and not individual desktop PC's?...
--
Tony Sayer

The problem I have had in the past is that old cases don't fit new
motherboards, and cases are in any case cheap.


I think with olde stuff and machines if you've upped the RAM as much as
you can and have removed all the slowing down junk then you're done all
you reasonably can...

So I generally ask the question of my PC builder, and if the answer is
'it wont fit' get a new case.

The RAM doesn't fit either, and in fact usually the only components that
are reusable are the disk and CDROM drive, and if its that old,
generally I don't want the disk anyway.

So unless you can simply replace the CPU Id say replace the whole machine.

Its less expensive than you think. A CPU/board/RAM/Case/Disk/GPU setup
is generally sub £250 where I buy. I buy what's cheap and as fast as the
money will afford.

(http://www.woc.co.uk)





WOC are good if you live near them and are going by there to pick stuff
up, but online suppliers provided you are ordering sufficient to get
free on inc carriage can be cheaper..

--
Tony Sayer

On 20/12/2012 11:53, tony sayer wrote:
Prior to that, I had tried to give older machines away to charity, but no-one
wanted them - they all wanted up-to-date machines with recent Windows licenses.
So they went in the crusher, too.


Correct me if I'm wrong but these days isn't all the data held one
central servers and the like, and not individual desktop PC's?...

Even if that is the design and intent, you cannot preclude some files,
caches, etc. containing sensitive information. And the registry...

--
Rod

On 20/12/12 11:59, tony sayer wrote:
The problem I have had in the past is that old cases don't fit new
motherboards, and cases are in any case cheap.


I think with olde stuff and machines if you've upped the RAM as much as
you can and have removed all the slowing down junk then you're done all
you reasonably can...

So I generally ask the question of my PC builder, and if the answer is
'it wont fit' get a new case.

The RAM doesn't fit either, and in fact usually the only components that
are reusable are the disk and CDROM drive, and if its that old,
generally I don't want the disk anyway.

So unless you can simply replace the CPU Id say replace the whole machine.

Its less expensive than you think. A CPU/board/RAM/Case/Disk/GPU setup
is generally sub £250 where I buy. I buy what's cheap and as fast as the
money will afford.

(http://www.woc.co.uk)





WOC are good if you live near them and are going by there to pick stuff
up, but online suppliers provided you are ordering sufficient to get
free on inc carriage can be cheaper..

and less reliable.

Every time we bought a NON WOC 'cheaper than WOC' computer it turned out
to be faulty, and we had to spend man hours trying to get out money
back, and in one case we never did.

Phil was always 15% more than the cheapest. Phil has never once failed
to get a dysfunctional machine working, or replace faulty parts under
warranty. That is a small price to pay.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 20/12/12 11:53, tony sayer wrote:
Prior to that, I had tried to give older machines away to charity, but no-one
wanted them - they all wanted up-to-date machines with recent Windows licenses.
So they went in the crusher, too.


Correct me if I'm wrong but these days isn't all the data held one
central servers and the like, and not individual desktop PC's?...

you would be surprised..windows especially is hard to configure to
disallow the users from using 'private' disk space.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 20/12/12 12:27, Owain wrote:
On Dec 19, 10:46 pm, Stephen H wrote:
I've discovered Ninite (google it)

Its so flipping handy and a real time saver when building a up a new PC.

It presents a list of applications such as Java, Shockwave, Adobe
Acrobat, Flashplayer, Thunderbird, Firefox, GIMP, AVG etc etc. You
simply tick the items you want and Ninite website will build a custom
executable installer and you download it.

so a bit like yast or synaptic ;-)


:-)

I was about to say that for some values of similarity of hardware all
you need to do to clone a linux machine is to copy the entire primary
disk partition with DD, put the disk in the new machine and boot. DHCP
sorts out its IP address and all you probably need to do is set up a
user, and that's it, done.

And in the case of corporations running a proper Unix style network,
even that's not necessary, as all the 'home' data is held on a server.


Owain





--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

WOC are good if you live near them and are going by there to pick stuff
up, but online suppliers provided you are ordering sufficient to get
free on inc carriage can be cheaper..

and less reliable.

What your saying that a hard disk in a sealed pack is less reliable?.

An LCD screen in the same makers box is less reliable?.

A CPU in an Intel sealed box is less reliable.


Every time we bought a NON WOC 'cheaper than WOC' computer it turned out
to be faulty, and we had to spend man hours trying to get out money
back, and in one case we never did.

Phil was always 15% more than the cheapest. Phil has never once failed
to get a dysfunctional machine working, or replace faulty parts under
warranty. That is a small price to pay.



Yes I do know the firm I go there *sometimes for odd bits like when we
need anything in a hurry, but otherwise online from a variety of
suppliers.

If they sodded us about like any supplier without good reason then we
simply do not go back there!.

It strikes me that these days how easy it is to set up and get going a
modern machine!....


* Like PC Wurld is the need is sufficiently pressing;!..
--
Tony Sayer

tony sayer wrote:
Prior to that, I had tried to give older machines away to charity, but no-one
wanted them - they all wanted up-to-date machines with recent Windows licenses.
So they went in the crusher, too.


Correct me if I'm wrong but these days isn't all the data held one
central servers and the like, and not individual desktop PC's?...

Short answer, no.

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

On 20/12/12 13:33, tony sayer wrote:

WOC are good if you live near them and are going by there to pick stuff
up, but online suppliers provided you are ordering sufficient to get
free on inc carriage can be cheaper..

and less reliable.

What your saying that a hard disk in a sealed pack is less reliable?.


No what I am saying that the packs and the brands were always those that
Phil got the least returns on. He got his fingers burned in the Solidisk
days.



An LCD screen in the same makers box is less reliable?.


But it isn't in the same makers box largely. Its a different brand, or a
factory second or a reject.,


A CPU in an Intel sealed box is less reliable.


It is if you fit it yourself. The WOC guys insert em with antistatic
hooked up..and they ALWAYS get the pins straight.

I cant be arsed 'building' computers when for that extra 15% it gets
built for me and if its a flop its not my problem.



Every time we bought a NON WOC 'cheaper than WOC' computer it turned out
to be faulty, and we had to spend man hours trying to get out money
back, and in one case we never did.

Phil was always 15% more than the cheapest. Phil has never once failed
to get a dysfunctional machine working, or replace faulty parts under
warranty. That is a small price to pay.



Yes I do know the firm I go there *sometimes for odd bits like when we
need anything in a hurry, but otherwise online from a variety of
suppliers.

If they sodded us about like any supplier without good reason then we
simply do not go back there!.

It strikes me that these days how easy it is to set up and get going a
modern machine!....

IF the hardware plays nice, yes. Again been there done that. The
graphics card worked fine. The serial parallel port worked fine. The two
together in the same motherboard randomly crashed.

I dont need that ****.

Last time I went there to build a server I insisted on loading up Linux.
It failed to connect to the Ethernet. Their MB had faulty Ethernet
hardware. Changed it in the spot. NO sending back. No 'you must have
broken it..there will be a refund fee to cover shipping..we will fix it
and send it back' (and the same board comes back again and again unfixed
until you give up) - and that WAS brand new in the makers ( Intel) carton.





* Like PC Wurld is the need is sufficiently pressing;!..


I needed an NVidia graphics card for this Linux (Nvidia have the best
Linux drivers). I walked into PC world and said 'which are the cards
with Nvidia chipsets' and will they fit my case?

No one had a clue. I phoned WOC, who looked up the machine I had, got
the correct Nvidia card in. took payment on the phone and a friend
picked it up on his way past..





--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 20/12/12 16:50, Huge wrote:
On 2012-12-20, tony sayer wrote:
Prior to that, I had tried to give older machines away to charity, but no-one
wanted them - they all wanted up-to-date machines with recent Windows licenses.
So they went in the crusher, too.


Correct me if I'm wrong

You're wrong. )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_user_computing


I must be getting tired, because I utterly fail to see the relevance of
that link to the discussions

So


YOU'RE WRONG!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_egoism



but these days isn't all the data held one
central servers and the like, and not individual desktop PC's?...




--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 17:02:37 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 20/12/12 13:33, tony sayer wrote:

WOC are good if you live near them and are going by there to pick
stuff up, but online suppliers provided you are ordering sufficient
to get free on inc carriage can be cheaper..

and less reliable.

What your saying that a hard disk in a sealed pack is less reliable?.


No what I am saying that the packs and the brands were always those that
Phil got the least returns on. He got his fingers burned in the Solidisk
days.



An LCD screen in the same makers box is less reliable?.


But it isn't in the same makers box largely. Its a different brand, or a
factory second or a reject.,


A CPU in an Intel sealed box is less reliable.


It is if you fit it yourself. The WOC guys insert em with antistatic
hooked up..and they ALWAYS get the pins straight.

I cant be arsed 'building' computers when for that extra 15% it gets
built for me and if its a flop its not my problem.



Every time we bought a NON WOC 'cheaper than WOC' computer it turned
out to be faulty, and we had to spend man hours trying to get out
money back, and in one case we never did.

Phil was always 15% more than the cheapest. Phil has never once failed
to get a dysfunctional machine working, or replace faulty parts under
warranty. That is a small price to pay.



Yes I do know the firm I go there *sometimes for odd bits like when we
need anything in a hurry, but otherwise online from a variety of
suppliers.

If they sodded us about like any supplier without good reason then we
simply do not go back there!.

It strikes me that these days how easy it is to set up and get going a
modern machine!....

IF the hardware plays nice, yes. Again been there done that. The
graphics card worked fine. The serial parallel port worked fine. The two
together in the same motherboard randomly crashed.

I dont need that ****.

Last time I went there to build a server I insisted on loading up Linux.
It failed to connect to the Ethernet. Their MB had faulty Ethernet
hardware. Changed it in the spot. NO sending back. No 'you must have
broken it..there will be a refund fee to cover shipping..we will fix it
and send it back' (and the same board comes back again and again unfixed
until you give up) - and that WAS brand new in the makers ( Intel)
carton.





* Like PC Wurld is the need is sufficiently pressing;!..


I needed an NVidia graphics card for this Linux (Nvidia have the best
Linux drivers). I walked into PC world and said 'which are the cards
with Nvidia chipsets' and will they fit my case?

No one had a clue. I phoned WOC, who looked up the machine I had, got
the correct Nvidia card in. took payment on the phone and a friend
picked it up on his way past..

Didn't you once say yu helped a friend set up WOC?



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 20/12/2012 13:33, tony sayer wrote:

WOC are good if you live near them and are going by there to pick stuff
up, but online suppliers provided you are ordering sufficient to get
free on inc carriage can be cheaper..

and less reliable.

What your saying that a hard disk in a sealed pack is less reliable?.

Depends on how it has been handled. I have used suppliers in the past
that supplied new disks in a jiffy bag! (as opposed to the proper shock
protecting padded drive boxes)

An LCD screen in the same makers box is less reliable?.

Unlikely

A CPU in an Intel sealed box is less reliable.

If its been installed in an Asrock motherboard rather than the Asus one
you might have specced yourself, then yes.

Build quality also varies - one that has been sensibly put together with
all lose cables neatly bundled and tied down will likely arrive with
them all still connected even after the courier has used the box for a
game who can drop kick the furthest, whereas one that is an internal
birds nest might not.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 20/12/12 20:22, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 17:02:37 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 20/12/12 13:33, tony sayer wrote:

WOC are good if you live near them and are going by there to pick
stuff up, but online suppliers provided you are ordering sufficient
to get free on inc carriage can be cheaper..

and less reliable.

What your saying that a hard disk in a sealed pack is less reliable?.


No what I am saying that the packs and the brands were always those that
Phil got the least returns on. He got his fingers burned in the Solidisk
days.



An LCD screen in the same makers box is less reliable?.


But it isn't in the same makers box largely. Its a different brand, or a
factory second or a reject.,


A CPU in an Intel sealed box is less reliable.


It is if you fit it yourself. The WOC guys insert em with antistatic
hooked up..and they ALWAYS get the pins straight.

I cant be arsed 'building' computers when for that extra 15% it gets
built for me and if its a flop its not my problem.



Every time we bought a NON WOC 'cheaper than WOC' computer it turned
out to be faulty, and we had to spend man hours trying to get out
money back, and in one case we never did.

Phil was always 15% more than the cheapest. Phil has never once failed
to get a dysfunctional machine working, or replace faulty parts under
warranty. That is a small price to pay.



Yes I do know the firm I go there *sometimes for odd bits like when we
need anything in a hurry, but otherwise online from a variety of
suppliers.

If they sodded us about like any supplier without good reason then we
simply do not go back there!.

It strikes me that these days how easy it is to set up and get going a
modern machine!....

IF the hardware plays nice, yes. Again been there done that. The
graphics card worked fine. The serial parallel port worked fine. The two
together in the same motherboard randomly crashed.

I dont need that ****.

Last time I went there to build a server I insisted on loading up Linux.
It failed to connect to the Ethernet. Their MB had faulty Ethernet
hardware. Changed it in the spot. NO sending back. No 'you must have
broken it..there will be a refund fee to cover shipping..we will fix it
and send it back' (and the same board comes back again and again unfixed
until you give up) - and that WAS brand new in the makers ( Intel)
carton.





* Like PC Wurld is the need is sufficiently pressing;!..


I needed an NVidia graphics card for this Linux (Nvidia have the best
Linux drivers). I walked into PC world and said 'which are the cards
with Nvidia chipsets' and will they fit my case?

No one had a clue. I phoned WOC, who looked up the machine I had, got
the correct Nvidia card in. took payment on the phone and a friend
picked it up on his way past..

Didn't you once say yu helped a friend set up WOC?


I helped by buying a lot of stuff - I only occasionally worked with Phil
on some major installations.

I was never a shareholder partner or employee. But we are sort of still
casual occasional friends.

I admire what he built.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 21:09:12 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 20/12/2012 13:33, tony sayer wrote:

WOC are good if you live near them and are going by there to pick
stuff up, but online suppliers provided you are ordering sufficient
to get free on inc carriage can be cheaper..

and less reliable.

What your saying that a hard disk in a sealed pack is less reliable?.

Depends on how it has been handled. I have used suppliers in the past
that supplied new disks in a jiffy bag! (as opposed to the proper shock
protecting padded drive boxes)

a.k.a. CPC - who leave them loose in a big box with a load of other stuff
- well, quite often anyway.

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 22:38:47 +0000, Stephen H
wrote:

Not so. My XP Pro I ran for years was an ex-Dell OEM disc which didn't
ever ask or give a stuff about the hardware.


you were lucky.....

No, it was common at that point, plenty of people did it.
Earlier Dell installations were a pig though, refusing to install
unless they saw a Dell flag in the BIOS or elsewhere. '98 and W2K
stand out in my memory for that.

On 20/12/2012 22:21, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 21:09:12 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 20/12/2012 13:33, tony sayer wrote:

WOC are good if you live near them and are going by there to pick
stuff up, but online suppliers provided you are ordering sufficient
to get free on inc carriage can be cheaper..

and less reliable.

What your saying that a hard disk in a sealed pack is less reliable?.

Depends on how it has been handled. I have used suppliers in the past
that supplied new disks in a jiffy bag! (as opposed to the proper shock
protecting padded drive boxes)

a.k.a. CPC - who leave them loose in a big box with a load of other stuff
- well, quite often anyway.

I think an outfit called A2Z was the worst I found - literally posting
in a jiffy bag with no other protection. At least with CPC you get a box
- just remember not to order a club hammer in the same order ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article , John
Rumm scribeth thus
On 20/12/2012 13:33, tony sayer wrote:

WOC are good if you live near them and are going by there to pick stuff
up, but online suppliers provided you are ordering sufficient to get
free on inc carriage can be cheaper..

and less reliable.

What your saying that a hard disk in a sealed pack is less reliable?.

Depends on how it has been handled. I have used suppliers in the past
that supplied new disks in a jiffy bag! (as opposed to the proper shock
protecting padded drive boxes)

Aren't they supposed to be OK with the some i00 odd G or similar?...


An LCD screen in the same makers box is less reliable?.

Unlikely

A CPU in an Intel sealed box is less reliable.

If its been installed in an Asrock motherboard rather than the Asus one
you might have specced yourself, then yes.

Why?, having dome just thats the other month MB and CPU are doing
fine!...


Build quality also varies - one that has been sensibly put together with
all lose cables neatly bundled and tied down will likely arrive with
them all still connected even after the courier has used the box for a
game who can drop kick the furthest, whereas one that is an internal
birds nest might not.


--
Tony Sayer

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
snip
If its been installed in an Asrock motherboard rather than the Asus one
you might have specced yourself, then yes.
snip

Interested that you seem to dislike AsRock - care to expand further?
I have an AsRock Z68 Extreme 4 Gen3

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On Fri, 21 Dec 2012 16:53:59 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 20/12/2012 22:21, Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 21:09:12 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 20/12/2012 13:33, tony sayer wrote:

WOC are good if you live near them and are going by there to pick
stuff up, but online suppliers provided you are ordering sufficient
to get free on inc carriage can be cheaper..

and less reliable.

What your saying that a hard disk in a sealed pack is less reliable?.

Depends on how it has been handled. I have used suppliers in the past
that supplied new disks in a jiffy bag! (as opposed to the proper
shock protecting padded drive boxes)

a.k.a. CPC - who leave them loose in a big box with a load of other
stuff - well, quite often anyway.

I think an outfit called A2Z was the worst I found - literally posting
in a jiffy bag with no other protection. At least with CPC you get a box
- just remember not to order a club hammer in the same order ;-)

When ordering from CPCC, I am always careful about what items I mix in
the same order - for exactly that reason. I quite often get the tubs of
dishwasher powder during the 'free carriage for orders over £10' WEBFREE
offers.



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 21/12/2012 17:51, tony sayer wrote:
Aren't they supposed to be OK with the some i00 odd G or similar?...

You'll find that is something like "dropped half an inch onto concrete".

Andy

On 20/12/2012 00:28, Jules Richardson wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2012 02:47:52 -0800, Man at B&Q wrote:
It seems that big corporate users throw stuff out after 4 years so
there's usually a glut of Dells on EBay

My employer now crushes absolutely everything (used to be just the HDDs)
due to an attack of corporate IT paranoia. Hugely powerful machines when
new, still very powerful after 4 years. They used to sell them off to
employess for charity...

Yes, many moons ago when I lived in Cambridge there was a time where I
could get hold of stuff that was only a couple of years old - and just a
year in some cases - quite easily. Things seemed to change around 2005
and suddenly everything seemed to be going off to specialist "recyclers"
where it would be crushed.

I'm not quite sure what had changed, although I think it was perhaps
around that time that there were a few high profile cases in the media
about data being recovered from junk systems.

cheers

Jules

I noted that last year when trying to get my hands on a P4 for my mum to
replace my 2003-acquired P3 which she had since 2005. The P3 was only 3
years old when I got it and the P4 older. Both boxes had original HDDs
which I didn't use.

On 21/12/2012 17:51, tony sayer wrote:
In article , John
Rumm scribeth thus
On 20/12/2012 13:33, tony sayer wrote:

WOC are good if you live near them and are going by there to pick stuff
up, but online suppliers provided you are ordering sufficient to get
free on inc carriage can be cheaper..

and less reliable.

What your saying that a hard disk in a sealed pack is less reliable?.

Depends on how it has been handled. I have used suppliers in the past
that supplied new disks in a jiffy bag! (as opposed to the proper shock
protecting padded drive boxes)

Aren't they supposed to be OK with the some i00 odd G or similar?...

Quite possibly... and it sounds like plenty, however its alarming how
easy it is to exceed that. Quick example: lets say you drop a HDD onto
your desk - from a height of 1 cm

If we apply v^2 = u^2 + 2as we get v^2 = 0 + 2 x 10 x 0.01

So it hits the desk at about 0.45 m/sec

Now your desk is hard, but it must give a bit, so lets say if flexes (or
dents) by a tenth of a mm under the impact:

0 = 0.45 + 2a x 0.0001

-0.45 / 0.0001 / 2 = 2250 m/sec^2 or about 225g

An LCD screen in the same makers box is less reliable?.

Unlikely

A CPU in an Intel sealed box is less reliable.

If its been installed in an Asrock motherboard rather than the Asus one
you might have specced yourself, then yes.

Why?, having dome just thats the other month MB and CPU are doing
fine!...

I would hope so after a month... report back in 18 ;-)

(not suggesting asrock are universally "bad" - just that some brands
operate in a different price and quality bracket and don't seem to enjoy
the longevity of some others - if you are a frequent upgrader, then this
may not matter)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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On 21/12/2012 18:23, David WE Roberts wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
snip
If its been installed in an Asrock motherboard rather than the Asus
one you might have specced yourself, then yes.
snip

Interested that you seem to dislike AsRock - care to expand further?
I have an AsRock Z68 Extreme 4 Gen3

Dislike would be way too strong... "Leaning toward others in preference"
might be closer

(to be fair - the point I was making was that if you cut corners on
motherboard quality you lower the overall system reliability even if the
CPU is identical - and asrock was just the first name that came to mind
in the slightly cheaper end of the market)

I have had a pretty good experience with boards by asus - and hence they
are what I use in my own systems. Some of the others also offer good
facilities / price points etc, and I would certainly consider them -
asrock and MSI being examples. However IME they have not been quite as
reliable. I used to like gigabyte years ago for the feature set etc, but
got burned by rather too many failures and slightly suspect BIOS issues
for my liking)

OOI, I just had a look through the dead mobo pile I have waiting for
when I can be bothered to re-cap them - 3 MSI, one Acer, and one Biostar
- no asrock there at the moment ;-) (the MSI ones I may repair since
they have reasonably decent C2D E7600 CPUs and 4GB RAM - the others are
probably not worth it)


--
Cheers,

John.

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In article , John
Rumm scribeth thus
On 21/12/2012 17:51, tony sayer wrote:
In article , John
Rumm scribeth thus
On 20/12/2012 13:33, tony sayer wrote:

WOC are good if you live near them and are going by there to pick stuff
up, but online suppliers provided you are ordering sufficient to get
free on inc carriage can be cheaper..

and less reliable.

What your saying that a hard disk in a sealed pack is less reliable?.

Depends on how it has been handled. I have used suppliers in the past
that supplied new disks in a jiffy bag! (as opposed to the proper shock
protecting padded drive boxes)

Aren't they supposed to be OK with the some i00 odd G or similar?...

Quite possibly... and it sounds like plenty, however its alarming how
easy it is to exceed that. Quick example: lets say you drop a HDD onto
your desk - from a height of 1 cm

If we apply v^2 = u^2 + 2as we get v^2 = 0 + 2 x 10 x 0.01

So it hits the desk at about 0.45 m/sec

Now your desk is hard, but it must give a bit, so lets say if flexes (or
dents) by a tenth of a mm under the impact:

0 = 0.45 + 2a x 0.0001

-0.45 / 0.0001 / 2 = 2250 m/sec^2 or about 225g

OK .. there is an outfit round here who has a hard drive "mincer" it
does just that . His firm collects PC's takes the hard drives out and
puts them in a machine that literally minces them into small chunks!..

We once tried to wreck some hard drives but hitting them with a hammer
and throwing them at the floor not dropping them, throwing them. It was
very surprising just how robust they were even with that treatment.

I suspect that it depends where the heads are WRT the drive surface at
any given time..


An LCD screen in the same makers box is less reliable?.

Unlikely

A CPU in an Intel sealed box is less reliable.

If its been installed in an Asrock motherboard rather than the Asus one
you might have specced yourself, then yes.

Why?, having dome just thats the other month MB and CPU are doing
fine!...

I would hope so after a month... report back in 18 ;-)

(not suggesting asrock are universally "bad" - just that some brands
operate in a different price and quality bracket and don't seem to enjoy
the longevity of some others - if you are a frequent upgrader, then this
may not matter)




The main problems we've had with PC's are...


Motherboards .. almost all caused by the duff capacitors that were made
a while ago.

Power units .. mainly because of their uber low price something has to
be underrated hence the failures, but this applies to a lot of other
consumer grade stuff..

Hard drives but these seem to be better in recent years..

CD ROM drives .. but in more recent times seem to be better.

Memory and processors hardly any..

--
Tony Sayer

In article , John
Rumm scribeth thus
On 21/12/2012 18:23, David WE Roberts wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
snip
If its been installed in an Asrock motherboard rather than the Asus
one you might have specced yourself, then yes.
snip

Interested that you seem to dislike AsRock - care to expand further?
I have an AsRock Z68 Extreme 4 Gen3

Dislike would be way too strong... "Leaning toward others in preference"
might be closer

(to be fair - the point I was making was that if you cut corners on
motherboard quality you lower the overall system reliability even if the
CPU is identical - and asrock was just the first name that came to mind
in the slightly cheaper end of the market)

I have had a pretty good experience with boards by asus - and hence they
are what I use in my own systems. Some of the others also offer good
facilities / price points etc, and I would certainly consider them -
asrock and MSI being examples. However IME they have not been quite as
reliable. I used to like gigabyte years ago for the feature set etc, but
got burned by rather too many failures and slightly suspect BIOS issues
for my liking)



OOI, I just had a look through the dead mobo pile I have waiting for
when I can be bothered to re-cap them - 3 MSI, one Acer, and one Biostar
- no asrock there at the moment ;-) (the MSI ones I may repair since
they have reasonably decent C2D E7600 CPUs and 4GB RAM - the others are
probably not worth it)



Are they really worth the time re-capping these days?..

As duff caps are the main source of MB failures, but that factory I
believe has either closed or they have now re instated the missing
ingredient!...

--
Tony Sayer

On 22/12/2012 14:19, tony sayer wrote:
In article , John
Rumm scribeth thus
On 21/12/2012 17:51, tony sayer wrote:
In article , John
Rumm scribeth thus
On 20/12/2012 13:33, tony sayer wrote:

WOC are good if you live near them and are going by there to pick stuff
up, but online suppliers provided you are ordering sufficient to get
free on inc carriage can be cheaper..

and less reliable.

What your saying that a hard disk in a sealed pack is less reliable?.

Depends on how it has been handled. I have used suppliers in the past
that supplied new disks in a jiffy bag! (as opposed to the proper shock
protecting padded drive boxes)

Aren't they supposed to be OK with the some i00 odd G or similar?...

Quite possibly... and it sounds like plenty, however its alarming how
easy it is to exceed that. Quick example: lets say you drop a HDD onto
your desk - from a height of 1 cm

If we apply v^2 = u^2 + 2as we get v^2 = 0 + 2 x 10 x 0.01

So it hits the desk at about 0.45 m/sec

Now your desk is hard, but it must give a bit, so lets say if flexes (or
dents) by a tenth of a mm under the impact:

0 = 0.45 + 2a x 0.0001

-0.45 / 0.0001 / 2 = 2250 m/sec^2 or about 225g

OK .. there is an outfit round here who has a hard drive "mincer" it
does just that . His firm collects PC's takes the hard drives out and
puts them in a machine that literally minces them into small chunks!..

We once tried to wreck some hard drives but hitting them with a hammer
and throwing them at the floor not dropping them, throwing them. It was
very surprising just how robust they were even with that treatment.

I suspect that it depends where the heads are WRT the drive surface at
any given time..

Yes, very much so... I have destroyed a few, and it takes a 14lb sledge
to do serious damage to them.

As with lots of these issues, the effect of impact damage is not
necessarily immediate failure, but can manifest as a reduction in life.
Much the same as with static damage.

The main problems we've had with PC's are...


Motherboards .. almost all caused by the duff capacitors that were made
a while ago.

Mostly I would say the same here, although I have had a recent slew of
failures on relatively recent kit with bad caps again.

Power units .. mainly because of their uber low price something has to
be underrated hence the failures, but this applies to a lot of other
consumer grade stuff..

I had that conversation with one of our customers a while back. He
wanted a quote for four new machines, and then queried the price saying
he could buy the same spec off the internet for less. So I explained to
him that the systems I was promoting were not really the same spec but
were built to order units, with business class PSUs, decent mobos etc
and came preloaded with a much closer match to his final software stack
since we could spec what went on them. He was not convinced about the
PSU argument since he believed they had suffered very few PSU failures
in the past. Alas completely missing the irony that he was making my
point for me, since we supplied the bulk of their PCs with decent PSUs!

In the end I ordered him "off the shelf" systems from our normal system
builder at a price closer to his "cheaper" ones. I pointed out to him
later that it took about an extra hour and a half of our time per
machine to configure them for use, and that more than wiped out the
savings.

Hard drives but these seem to be better in recent years..

Yup, don't think I have had many failures recently.

CD ROM drives .. but in more recent times seem to be better.
Memory and processors hardly any..

Memory, now and then. Processors, I can only recall one failure in over
20 years! (that was actually recently on a i3 box, still under warranty)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 22/12/2012 14:25, tony sayer wrote:
In article , John
Rumm scribeth thus
On 21/12/2012 18:23, David WE Roberts wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
snip
If its been installed in an Asrock motherboard rather than the Asus
one you might have specced yourself, then yes.
snip

Interested that you seem to dislike AsRock - care to expand further?
I have an AsRock Z68 Extreme 4 Gen3

Dislike would be way too strong... "Leaning toward others in preference"
might be closer

(to be fair - the point I was making was that if you cut corners on
motherboard quality you lower the overall system reliability even if the
CPU is identical - and asrock was just the first name that came to mind
in the slightly cheaper end of the market)

I have had a pretty good experience with boards by asus - and hence they
are what I use in my own systems. Some of the others also offer good
facilities / price points etc, and I would certainly consider them -
asrock and MSI being examples. However IME they have not been quite as
reliable. I used to like gigabyte years ago for the feature set etc, but
got burned by rather too many failures and slightly suspect BIOS issues
for my liking)



OOI, I just had a look through the dead mobo pile I have waiting for
when I can be bothered to re-cap them - 3 MSI, one Acer, and one Biostar
- no asrock there at the moment ;-) (the MSI ones I may repair since
they have reasonably decent C2D E7600 CPUs and 4GB RAM - the others are
probably not worth it)



Are they really worth the time re-capping these days?..

Not usually unless they are rare boards. I did some Ideq "cube" boards a
while back since getting replacements that fit the SFF cases is very
difficult.

Having said that, when you have the whole board with decent CPU and RAM
etc, then it can be worth it for a cheap upgrade on older systems if you
can recap them in 30 mins with a couple of quids worth of parts.

As duff caps are the main source of MB failures, but that factory I
believe has either closed or they have now re instated the missing
ingredient!...

Well that is what I heard as well, but have still been getting cap
failures on boards well after the time the dodgy ones were supposed to
be out of the supply channel.

Not had any of the ones using so called "mil spec" metal can caps yet.
(not sure if they really are Mil spec - but they certainly seem better
than the normal radial electrolytics.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:

OK .. there is an outfit round here who has a hard drive "mincer" it
does just that . His firm collects PC's takes the hard drives out and
puts them in a machine that literally minces them into small chunks!..

We once tried to wreck some hard drives but hitting them with a hammer
and throwing them at the floor not dropping them, throwing them. It was
very surprising just how robust they were even with that treatment.

when I took the hard drive out of a desktop machine I then undid some
screws and removed the cover and then the disk. It can be bent by putting
it in vice and htting it witha hammer. Some of the coating flakes off, too.

cheaper than paying someone to use a 'mincer'.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

charles wrote:
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:

OK .. there is an outfit round here who has a hard drive "mincer" it
does just that . His firm collects PC's takes the hard drives out and
puts them in a machine that literally minces them into small chunks!..

We once tried to wreck some hard drives but hitting them with a hammer
and throwing them at the floor not dropping them, throwing them. It was
very surprising just how robust they were even with that treatment.

when I took the hard drive out of a desktop machine I then undid some
screws and removed the cover and then the disk. It can be bent by putting
it in vice and htting it witha hammer. Some of the coating flakes off, too.

cheaper than paying someone to use a 'mincer'.

I really have never fathomed out why people are so paranoid about
what's left on their disk drives. The same stuff is almost certainly
spread all around the internet anyway and a proper low level format
will erase sufficiently that no one except MI5/MI6 will have the time,
money and equipment to get any data off the drive.

--
Chris Green

On Sat, 22 Dec 2012 14:19:34 +0000, tony sayer
wrote:

OK .. there is an outfit round here who has a hard drive "mincer" it
does just that . His firm collects PC's takes the hard drives out and
puts them in a machine that literally minces them into small chunks!..

We once tried to wreck some hard drives but hitting them with a hammer
and throwing them at the floor not dropping them, throwing them. It was
very surprising just how robust they were even with that treatment.

I usually put a cold chisel into mine before I sling them out.

I suspect that it depends where the heads are WRT the drive surface at
any given time..

Most, probably all, drives these days move the heads automatically on
power off to the 'Landing Zone' where no data is kept.

The main problems we've had with PC's are...

Motherboards .. almost all caused by the duff capacitors that were made
a while ago.

One duff Gigabyte motherboard from a dodgy supplier who no longer gets
my business, where the chipset fan failed and the chipset fried,
replaced by a lesser specced one that wouldn't work reliably with SATA
disks.

Power units .. mainly because of their uber low price something has to
be underrated hence the failures, but this applies to a lot of other
consumer grade stuff..

One duff PSU from same dodgy supplier in same order.

Hard drives but these seem to be better in recent years..

I've had a Connor, an IBM, and a WD go down. The WD was the most
annoying, as it was a relatively new 500GB drive, just out of
guarantee! The other two were acceptably old anyway.

CD ROM drives .. but in more recent times seem to be better.

My favourite trick with CD/DVD drives is to forget to put the tray
back in when I've removed the disk, and then knocking the tray out
with my knee as I get up from the desk. I've done this with two or
three drives now, but in each case I've been able to get the tray back
in, even though sometimes it has meant partially dismantling the
drive, and it's worked fine ever since.

Memory and processors hardly any..

1 non-Intel CPU which fried within days when some software on my PC
somehow put it into an internal infinite loop. I changed the
motherboard and CPU for an Intel PIII. 1 RAM stick failure (later on
in same PC - cause and effect?). 1 mismatched paired RAM from same
dodgy supplier in the same order as above.

--
================================================== =======
Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's
header does not exist. Or use a contact address at:
http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/JavaJive.html
http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Macfarlane.html

I replaced the dodgy Gigabyte P4 motherboard mentioned in my failures
list down thread with an ASRock motherboard, and so far it's been
excellent. I have no quibble with them at all. I've also noticed
that they seem to command a higher used price on eBay that many other
makes, which suggest that my good (so far) experience with them is
shared by others.

On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 21:09:12 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

If its been installed in an Asrock motherboard rather than the Asus one
you might have specced yourself, then yes.
--
================================================== =======
Please always reply to ng as the email in this post's
header does not exist. Or use a contact address at:
http://www.macfh.co.uk/JavaJive/JavaJive.html
http://www.macfh.co.uk/Macfarlane/Macfarlane.html

In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 21:09:12 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 20/12/2012 13:33, tony sayer wrote:

WOC are good if you live near them and are going by there to pick
stuff up, but online suppliers provided you are ordering sufficient
to get free on inc carriage can be cheaper..

and less reliable.

What your saying that a hard disk in a sealed pack is less reliable?.

Depends on how it has been handled. I have used suppliers in the past
that supplied new disks in a jiffy bag! (as opposed to the proper shock
protecting padded drive boxes)

a.k.a. CPC - who leave them loose in a big box with a load of other stuff
- well, quite often anyway.

Light bulbs, for example


--
geoff

On Sat, 22 Dec 2012 19:49:43 +0000, geoff wrote:

In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 21:09:12 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 20/12/2012 13:33, tony sayer wrote:

WOC are good if you live near them and are going by there to pick
stuff up, but online suppliers provided you are ordering sufficient
to get free on inc carriage can be cheaper..

and less reliable.

What your saying that a hard disk in a sealed pack is less reliable?.

Depends on how it has been handled. I have used suppliers in the past
that supplied new disks in a jiffy bag! (as opposed to the proper
shock protecting padded drive boxes)

a.k.a. CPC - who leave them loose in a big box with a load of other
stuff - well, quite often anyway.

Light bulbs, for example

Yep.



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 22/12/12 17:20, wrote:
charles wrote:
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:

OK .. there is an outfit round here who has a hard drive "mincer" it
does just that . His firm collects PC's takes the hard drives out and
puts them in a machine that literally minces them into small chunks!..

We once tried to wreck some hard drives but hitting them with a hammer
and throwing them at the floor not dropping them, throwing them. It was
very surprising just how robust they were even with that treatment.

when I took the hard drive out of a desktop machine I then undid some
screws and removed the cover and then the disk. It can be bent by putting
it in vice and htting it witha hammer. Some of the coating flakes off, too.

cheaper than paying someone to use a 'mincer'.

I really have never fathomed out why people are so paranoid about
what's left on their disk drives. The same stuff is almost certainly
spread all around the internet anyway and a proper low level format
will erase sufficiently that no one except MI5/MI6 will have the time,
money and equipment to get any data off the drive.

you cant do a low level format using standard tools anymore.

And if you wipe the OS the value of the thing drops.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to
lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the
members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are
rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a
diminishing number of producers.

On 22/12/2012 17:20, wrote:
charles wrote:
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:

OK .. there is an outfit round here who has a hard drive "mincer" it
does just that . His firm collects PC's takes the hard drives out and
puts them in a machine that literally minces them into small chunks!..

We once tried to wreck some hard drives but hitting them with a hammer
and throwing them at the floor not dropping them, throwing them. It was
very surprising just how robust they were even with that treatment.

when I took the hard drive out of a desktop machine I then undid some
screws and removed the cover and then the disk. It can be bent by putting
it in vice and htting it witha hammer. Some of the coating flakes off, too.

cheaper than paying someone to use a 'mincer'.

I really have never fathomed out why people are so paranoid about
what's left on their disk drives. The same stuff is almost certainly
spread all around the internet anyway

There is a good deal of information that I keep which is certainly not
spread all around the internet! I am sure that is the case for many.
Also keep in mind that for many businesses, they data they keep may not
just be theirs, but their customer's also. Hence they have a legal
responsibility to dispose of it properly.

and a proper low level format
will erase sufficiently that no one except MI5/MI6 will have the time,
money and equipment to get any data off the drive.

You can't even do a low level format on any drive made in the last decade...

With the ascendancy of flash based drives and their excess hidden
capacity used for wear levelling, there is not even a guarantee that
overwriting the data will actually make it all unrecoverable.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Dec 22, 5:20*pm, wrote:
charles wrote:
In article ,
* *tony sayer wrote:

OK .. there is an outfit round here who has a hard drive "mincer" it
does just that . His firm collects PC's takes the hard drives out and
puts them in a machine that literally minces them into small chunks!...

We once tried to wreck some hard drives but hitting them with a hammer
and throwing them at the floor not dropping them, throwing them. It was
very surprising just how robust they were even with that treatment.

when I took the hard drive out of a desktop machine I then undid some
screws and removed the cover and then the disk. *It can be bent by putting
it in vice and htting it witha hammer. Some of the coating flakes off, too.

cheaper than paying someone to use a 'mincer'.

I really have never fathomed out why people are so paranoid about
what's left on their disk drives. *The same stuff is almost certainly
spread all around the internet anyway and a proper low level format
will erase sufficiently that no one except MI5/MI6 will have the time,
money and equipment to get any data off the drive.

Same reason they are so paranoid about viruses. The media make the
problem appear much worse than it really is.

MBQ

Why not?

"Huge" wrote in message
...
On 2012-12-22, Java Jive wrote:

On Thu, 20 Dec 2012 21:09:12 +0000, John Rumm
wrote:

Don't top post.

--
Today is Sweetmorn, the 64th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3178
Don't do business with Churchill Insurance - they're slime.

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

In article , charles
scribeth thus
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:

OK .. there is an outfit round here who has a hard drive "mincer" it
does just that . His firm collects PC's takes the hard drives out and
puts them in a machine that literally minces them into small chunks!..

We once tried to wreck some hard drives but hitting them with a hammer
and throwing them at the floor not dropping them, throwing them. It was
very surprising just how robust they were even with that treatment.

when I took the hard drive out of a desktop machine I then undid some
screws and removed the cover and then the disk. It can be bent by putting
it in vice and htting it witha hammer. Some of the coating flakes off, too.

cheaper than paying someone to use a 'mincer'.


Ah!, but you don't get a certificate of destruction for that to comply
with some BS approval system!...
--
Tony Sayer

In article , scribeth thus
charles wrote:
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:

OK .. there is an outfit round here who has a hard drive "mincer" it
does just that . His firm collects PC's takes the hard drives out and
puts them in a machine that literally minces them into small chunks!..

We once tried to wreck some hard drives but hitting them with a hammer
and throwing them at the floor not dropping them, throwing them. It was
very surprising just how robust they were even with that treatment.

when I took the hard drive out of a desktop machine I then undid some
screws and removed the cover and then the disk. It can be bent by putting
it in vice and htting it witha hammer. Some of the coating flakes off, too.

cheaper than paying someone to use a 'mincer'.

I really have never fathomed out why people are so paranoid about
what's left on their disk drives. The same stuff is almost certainly
spread all around the internet anyway and a proper low level format
will erase sufficiently that no one except MI5/MI6 will have the time,
money and equipment to get any data off the drive.


I bet someone employed by the "news of the screws" can if needed;!....
--
Tony Sayer