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Old April 17th 12, 03:38 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default Fracking in UK given green light


Following on from another thread...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...fracking-gets-
green-light

http://tinyurl.com/cumqamx

(that's a vaguely dirty-sounding shortlink tinyurl came up with!)

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Old April 17th 12, 07:46 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default Fracking in UK given green light

On 17/04/2012 03:38, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

Following on from another thread...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...fracking-gets-
green-light

http://tinyurl.com/cumqamx

(that's a vaguely dirty-sounding shortlink tinyurl came up with!)


Indeed, and to listen to some business commentators there are sufficient
reserves under Lancashire to last the UK for 50 years. Such comments
must obviously be taken with large quantities of salt, but they
illustrate the problem of separating fact from fiction in the energy
world given the hyperbole surrounding the issue on both sides of the
social, political, economic and environmental arguments, not to mention
self-interested misinformation.

Nevertheless it is probably indisputable that very significant deposits
of oil shale are to be found beneath Lancashire. Whether the
recoverable gas resources are commensurate, is an entirely different and
still largely unanswered question. This underlines the futility of
making predictions about when fossil fuels will "run out", and all that
ensues from such pronouncements.

There are very large deposits of shale oil in many other parts of the
world still to be fully assessed, just two examples out of many are
China which has what are believed to be vast deposits far larger than
those found in the USA, and Argentina. The latter are onshore deposits
in addition to the offshore deposits of oil being explored in the
Atlantic near the Falkland Islands. New gas fields have just been
confirmed in the Eastern Mediterranean and the very first test well
explored off Cyprus has been assessed at about 5 trillion cubic feet.
This field will not require "fracking" and the gas is recoverable
through natural pressure. There are other fields yet to be explored in
the area and that doesn't take into account fields already found off
Israel. Both countries are considering how they might export natural
gas in light of their respective geopolitical situations but it is a
given that they have discovered more natural gas than they consume when
exploration has only just begun.

The price of natural gas in the USA has plummeted in the last year,
simply because large quantities of shale gas have come onto the market
and the USA is now contemplating exporting gas. The price of gas has
fallen so low there and so rapidly that companies are now having to
mothball up to half of the wells which they only opened up very recently.

--
Dave N
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Old April 17th 12, 09:09 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default Fracking in UK given green light

Well yes, but has anyone worked out what happens to the actual ground when
you do this kind of extraction. If people live above it all sorts of things
might occur with time.
Brian

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"Dave N" wrote in message
...
On 17/04/2012 03:38, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

Following on from another thread...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...fracking-gets-
green-light

http://tinyurl.com/cumqamx

(that's a vaguely dirty-sounding shortlink tinyurl came up with!)


Indeed, and to listen to some business commentators there are sufficient
reserves under Lancashire to last the UK for 50 years. Such comments must
obviously be taken with large quantities of salt, but they illustrate the
problem of separating fact from fiction in the energy world given the
hyperbole surrounding the issue on both sides of the social, political,
economic and environmental arguments, not to mention self-interested
misinformation.

Nevertheless it is probably indisputable that very significant deposits of
oil shale are to be found beneath Lancashire. Whether the recoverable gas
resources are commensurate, is an entirely different and still largely
unanswered question. This underlines the futility of making predictions
about when fossil fuels will "run out", and all that ensues from such
pronouncements.

There are very large deposits of shale oil in many other parts of the
world still to be fully assessed, just two examples out of many are China
which has what are believed to be vast deposits far larger than those
found in the USA, and Argentina. The latter are onshore deposits in
addition to the offshore deposits of oil being explored in the Atlantic
near the Falkland Islands. New gas fields have just been confirmed in the
Eastern Mediterranean and the very first test well explored off Cyprus has
been assessed at about 5 trillion cubic feet. This field will not require
"fracking" and the gas is recoverable through natural pressure. There are
other fields yet to be explored in the area and that doesn't take into
account fields already found off Israel. Both countries are considering
how they might export natural gas in light of their respective
geopolitical situations but it is a given that they have discovered more
natural gas than they consume when exploration has only just begun.

The price of natural gas in the USA has plummeted in the last year, simply
because large quantities of shale gas have come onto the market and the
USA is now contemplating exporting gas. The price of gas has fallen so
low there and so rapidly that companies are now having to mothball up to
half of the wells which they only opened up very recently.

--
Dave N



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Old April 17th 12, 09:57 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 364
Default Fracking in UK given green light

On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 07:46:41 +0100, Dave N
wrote:

On 17/04/2012 03:38, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

Following on from another thread...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...fracking-gets-
green-light

http://tinyurl.com/cumqamx

(that's a vaguely dirty-sounding shortlink tinyurl came up with!)


Indeed, and to listen to some business commentators there are sufficient
reserves under Lancashire to last the UK for 50 years. Such comments
must obviously be taken with large quantities of salt, but they
illustrate the problem of separating fact from fiction in the energy
world given the hyperbole surrounding the issue on both sides of the
social, political, economic and environmental arguments, not to mention
self-interested misinformation.

Nevertheless it is probably indisputable that very significant deposits
of oil shale are to be found beneath Lancashire. Whether the
recoverable gas resources are commensurate, is an entirely different and
still largely unanswered question. This underlines the futility of
making predictions about when fossil fuels will "run out", and all that
ensues from such pronouncements.

There are very large deposits of shale oil in many other parts of the
world still to be fully assessed, just two examples out of many are
China which has what are believed to be vast deposits far larger than
those found in the USA, and Argentina. The latter are onshore deposits
in addition to the offshore deposits of oil being explored in the
Atlantic near the Falkland Islands. New gas fields have just been
confirmed in the Eastern Mediterranean and the very first test well
explored off Cyprus has been assessed at about 5 trillion cubic feet.
This field will not require "fracking" and the gas is recoverable
through natural pressure. There are other fields yet to be explored in
the area and that doesn't take into account fields already found off
Israel. Both countries are considering how they might export natural
gas in light of their respective geopolitical situations but it is a
given that they have discovered more natural gas than they consume when
exploration has only just begun.

The price of natural gas in the USA has plummeted in the last year,
simply because large quantities of shale gas have come onto the market
and the USA is now contemplating exporting gas. The price of gas has
fallen so low there and so rapidly that companies are now having to
mothball up to half of the wells which they only opened up very recently.


So...

I have this picture in my head of the gas coming out and the Earth
shrinking down like a deflating balloon.

fx: looks around, nervously
Erme - only me then?

Nick
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Old April 17th 12, 10:32 AM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 2,907
Default Fracking in UK given green light

On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 09:57:16 +0100
Nick Odell wrote:

On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 07:46:41 +0100, Dave N
wrote:

On 17/04/2012 03:38, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

Following on from another thread...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...fracking-gets-
green-light

http://tinyurl.com/cumqamx

(that's a vaguely dirty-sounding shortlink tinyurl came up with!)


Indeed, and to listen to some business commentators there are
sufficient reserves under Lancashire to last the UK for 50 years.
Such comments must obviously be taken with large quantities of salt,
but they illustrate the problem of separating fact from fiction in
the energy world given the hyperbole surrounding the issue on both
sides of the social, political, economic and environmental
arguments, not to mention self-interested misinformation.

Nevertheless it is probably indisputable that very significant
deposits of oil shale are to be found beneath Lancashire. Whether
the recoverable gas resources are commensurate, is an entirely
different and still largely unanswered question. This underlines
the futility of making predictions about when fossil fuels will "run
out", and all that ensues from such pronouncements.

There are very large deposits of shale oil in many other parts of
the world still to be fully assessed, just two examples out of many
are China which has what are believed to be vast deposits far larger
than those found in the USA, and Argentina. The latter are onshore
deposits in addition to the offshore deposits of oil being explored
in the Atlantic near the Falkland Islands. New gas fields have just
been confirmed in the Eastern Mediterranean and the very first test
well explored off Cyprus has been assessed at about 5 trillion cubic
feet. This field will not require "fracking" and the gas is
recoverable through natural pressure. There are other fields yet to
be explored in the area and that doesn't take into account fields
already found off Israel. Both countries are considering how they
might export natural gas in light of their respective geopolitical
situations but it is a given that they have discovered more natural
gas than they consume when exploration has only just begun.

The price of natural gas in the USA has plummeted in the last year,
simply because large quantities of shale gas have come onto the
market and the USA is now contemplating exporting gas. The price of
gas has fallen so low there and so rapidly that companies are now
having to mothball up to half of the wells which they only opened up
very recently.


So...

I have this picture in my head of the gas coming out and the Earth
shrinking down like a deflating balloon.

fx: looks around, nervously
Erme - only me then?

Nick


Would it then be sent frantically zooming away like a balloon let loose?
No need to worry about spacecraft journey times to the stars, we take
the whole planet!
It's worthy of Red Dwarf.
--
Davey.


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Old April 17th 12, 12:48 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default Fracking in UK given green light

Dave N wrote:
[snip]

Nevertheless it is probably indisputable that very significant deposits
of oil shale are to be found beneath Lancashire.


Not just Lancashire. There are probably significant reserves below
Derbyshire. There is evidence in the form of elaterite and the blue
colouring in Blue John of petroleum below the limestone strata. There is
an interesting succession of shale, grit, impermeable basalts and porous
limestone with coal measures at the northern end of the Peak District. The
question there would be permits for extraction in a National Park.
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Old April 17th 12, 06:31 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default Fracking in UK given green light

On 17/04/2012 07:46, Dave N wrote:
On 17/04/2012 03:38, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

Following on from another thread...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environmen...fracking-gets-
green-light

http://tinyurl.com/cumqamx

(that's a vaguely dirty-sounding shortlink tinyurl came up with!)


Indeed, and to listen to some business commentators there are sufficient
reserves under Lancashire to last the UK for 50 years. Such comments
must obviously be taken with large quantities of salt,

No, the salt mines are in Cheshire.

Pete
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Old April 17th 12, 08:09 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default Fracking in UK given green light

Steve Firth wrote:
The question there would be permits for extraction in a National Park.


Dig the mines outside the national park and then go sideways.

JGH
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Old April 17th 12, 08:34 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default Fracking in UK given green light

jgharston wrote:
Steve Firth wrote:
The question there would be permits for extraction in a National Park.


Dig the mines outside the national park and then go sideways.

JGH


Yep. In fact a gas drill rig is probably less intrusive than a single
windmill..

I note there are S Wales deposits..looked like the Brecons to me. I cant
think of a better gift to Wales than that. Must be some gas
infrastructure there already.


Very good paper on all of this from DECC

http://www.templar.co.uk/downloads/U...e_shalegas.pdf

Politically this may be a bacon saver. New UK industry, jobs in deprived
Labour voting areas..reduction in ports, an excuse to trash renewables
and still claim 'its better than coal'.

And of course, it keeps the lights burning without having to use the N word.


--
To people who know nothing, anything is possible.
To people who know too much, it is a sad fact
that they know how little is really possible -
and how hard it is to achieve it.
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Old April 17th 12, 08:35 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default Fracking in UK given green light

On Apr 17, 7:46*am, Dave N wrote:
Indeed, and to listen to some business commentators there
are sufficient reserves under Lancashire to last the UK for 50 years.


The entire UK may have sufficient shale gas reserves for 25 to 50
years, with the former of those being more likely.

The duration of reserves is not down to the raw reserve size, it is
down to available recovery technology and market price (both of which
are highly volatile). For example, current technology and market price
may make it only economic to recover 20Tcu.ft out of the 200Tcu.ft
reserves, however by the time 20Tcu.ft have been recovered technology
may make recovery of 70T possible and market price eventually may make
120T or more viable.

The UK is going to be turning off coal shortly re EU directive, and
its nukes will eventually lose operating licences. So like the law of
corporate big numbers some of the "new finds" are in fact going to
merely replace lost supply vs deliver new.

Earthquakes are a non-issue.
Due to nature of gas extraction, the UK sitting in the middle of a
tectonic plate, large earthquakes are simply very unlikely. Realise
they have been extracting shale gas actually on the San Andreas fault
and other fault lines for some time without Phoenix becoming beach
front property. The UK has relatively stable geology, it naturally has
a huge number of earthquakes a year.
The fracking in lancashire may have caused a 2.1 earthquake in (I
think) December, being in Cheshire and sat on a concrete raft I simply
felt a slight tilt & return of my pelvis. It was trivial, but will add
to the "earthquake noise".

Fracking mixtures are NOT a non-issue.
In the USA, and most likely the UK, it is difficult "for commercial
reasons" (********) to get the exact mix known, however it is known
that Benzene forms one of the components. This is not ideal, and
indeed in the USA the drilling companies bizarrely have exemption from
the Clean Water Act. No idea what the UK is doing, probably collecting
bribes and examining its political arsehole.
Benzene could interface with ground water, there is considerable
subterranean water transit in the UK. That just might result in more
distorted life forms in London and Parliament eventually, the mind
boggles. More seriously there needs to be research to establish if
other less carcinogenic chemical formulations could be used -
sacrificing absolute performance since there is little commercial
desperation to "get it all out now" because that will merely depress
prices.

Oil companies are just a proxy for the state, more than any other in
fact.

I have no problems in seeing gas & electricity generation prices fall,
as to "insulating homes" I strongly suspect that will continue anyway
simply because you can STILL save a lot of money even if energy prices
were to "collapse" to 2007 levels. Of course, realise we are not going
back to cheap petrol/diesel, the government has a shed sized hole to
fill. The opportunity for the Treasury against a stagnant UK economy
is too great and Votes Come First.

What I would prefer to see is a Sovereign Wealth Fund established via
a tax on domestic shale gas and export (globally), which could be
apportioned to individuals as say a Cancer or terminal disease medical
fund and inherited without tax. I know quite a few cancer suffers (my
mother is soon to be one) who would benefit from a 1000-5000 scaling
sum.
Sadly the UK, as Thatcher did (and I am a capitalist) will squander it
on projects for votes, benefactors, pork & waste.


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