I have one of the relatively modern electricity meters with a digital
display and when I went to read it today to send in the reading, the
display was reading alternately the power consumed and "rEd".
Additionally a red led is permanently on.

The make of the meter is 'Ampy' - Black and about 100 x 150 x 40mm

Can anyone confirm what this means please?

I have recently had a solar PV system fitted which can feed power back
into the grid. The meter was not changed to accommodate this (instead I
have my own generation meter) so I wonder if it is just an indcation
that the meter has tried to run backwards which would normally happen if
someone was trying to fiddle the meter reading but in my case just shows
the Solar PV has been generating more power than I have been consuming.

TIA

Bob

Bob Minchin wrote:
I have one of the relatively modern electricity meters with a digital
display and when I went to read it today to send in the reading, the
display was reading alternately the power consumed and "rEd".
Additionally a red led is permanently on.

The make of the meter is 'Ampy' - Black and about 100 x 150 x 40mm

Can anyone confirm what this means please?

I have recently had a solar PV system fitted which can feed power back
into the grid. The meter was not changed to accommodate this (instead I
have my own generation meter) so I wonder if it is just an indcation
that the meter has tried to run backwards which would normally happen if
someone was trying to fiddle the meter reading but in my case just shows
the Solar PV has been generating more power than I have been consuming.

TIA

Bob

I know it is bad form to reply to your own posts but it might help someone.

I have found the answer here
http://universalmeterservices.co.uk/...mages/5193.doc

The red light either flashes every 1 watt-hr consumed or stays on
continuously when the power being consumed is below a preset level.

The display flashing rEd is showing "reverse energy detection" which
would normally mean fraudulent use but in the case of power export from
microgeneration schemes (PV, wind etc) is legitimate.

In my case, when the light is on continuously it means that I am
generating more power than I'm using - this is confirmed by the display
reading now being identical to the one I took 8 hours ago.

According to the manual, the meter has a separate register measuring
exported power although the reading is not displayed.

Bob

On Apr 20, 3:35*pm, Bob Minchin
wrote:
I have one of the relatively modern electricity meters with a digital
display and when I went to read it today to send in the reading, the
display was reading alternately the power consumed and "rEd".
Additionally a red led is permanently on.

The make of the meter is 'Ampy' - Black and about 100 x 150 x 40mm

Can anyone confirm what this means please?

I have recently had a solar PV system fitted which can feed power back
into the grid. The meter was not changed to accommodate this (instead I
have my own generation meter) so I wonder if it is just an indcation
that the meter has tried to run backwards which would normally happen if
someone was trying to fiddle the meter reading but in my case just shows
the Solar PV has been generating more power than I have been consuming.

TIA

Bob

I too have just had a PV array fitted. The old "Disk" meters would
run backwards, the new electronic ones won't.
You will normally only get an export meter if you have a large array.
They just assume you are using 50% of the energy generated for the
export tarif.

I too have just had a PV array fitted. The old "Disk" meters would
run backwards, the new electronic ones won't.
You will normally only get an export meter if you have a large array.
They just assume you are using 50% of the energy generated for the
export tarif.

And just how much power are these generating on an average day ?..
--
Tony Sayer

tony sayer wrote:
I too have just had a PV array fitted. The old "Disk" meters would
run backwards, the new electronic ones won't.
You will normally only get an export meter if you have a large array.
They just assume you are using 50% of the energy generated for the
export tarif.

And just how much power are these generating on an average day ?..
about 30W/sq meter average.

Could be over a KW on a hot sunny day.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
tony sayer wrote:
I too have just had a PV array fitted. The old "Disk" meters would
run backwards, the new electronic ones won't.
You will normally only get an export meter if you have a large array.
They just assume you are using 50% of the energy generated for the
export tarif.

And just how much power are these generating on an average day ?..
about 30W/sq meter average.

Could be over a KW on a hot sunny day.
My system is quite small = 16.7 sq m rated at 2.35kWp.
It has produce 350kWh since 1st February this year which will pay out
£150 ish plus any saving on power consumed.
As the sun gets higher in the sky the daily totals are rising.
Yesterday was 11.25kWh. Instantaneous power available is regularly in
excess of 1.6kW and can exceed 2kW
Even on a grey day when it is raining, 3-4kWh are produced per day

Bob

Bob Minchin wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
tony sayer wrote:
I too have just had a PV array fitted. The old "Disk" meters would
run backwards, the new electronic ones won't.
You will normally only get an export meter if you have a large array.
They just assume you are using 50% of the energy generated for the
export tarif.

And just how much power are these generating on an average day ?..
about 30W/sq meter average.

Could be over a KW on a hot sunny day.
My system is quite small = 16.7 sq m rated at 2.35kWp.
It has produce 350kWh since 1st February this year which will pay out
£150 ish plus any saving on power consumed.
As the sun gets higher in the sky the daily totals are rising.
Yesterday was 11.25kWh. Instantaneous power available is regularly in
excess of 1.6kW and can exceed 2kW
Even on a grey day when it is raining, 3-4kWh are produced per day


so in *real* terms it produces an input worth between 12p and 45p per
day, if you discount the ridiculous subsidies.


Bob

so in *real* terms it produces an input worth between 12p and 45p per
day, if you discount the ridiculous subsidies.

+1: the ridiculous (and exempt from tax) subsidies which are a massive
transfer of funds from flat dwellers, those with small rooves, and
North facing rooves to people with big rooves facing South or big
gardens. In short, mainly from the poor to the rich.

But to come back to DIY, what kind of paint or other covering would
adhere best to solar panels? And could it (for speed) be poured rather
than brushed or sprayed?
--
Robin
PM may be sent to rbw0{at}hotmail{dot}com

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Bob Minchin wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
tony sayer wrote:
I too have just had a PV array fitted. The old "Disk" meters would
run backwards, the new electronic ones won't.
You will normally only get an export meter if you have a large array.
They just assume you are using 50% of the energy generated for the
export tarif.

And just how much power are these generating on an average day ?..
about 30W/sq meter average.

Could be over a KW on a hot sunny day.
My system is quite small = 16.7 sq m rated at 2.35kWp.
It has produce 350kWh since 1st February this year which will pay out
£150 ish plus any saving on power consumed.
As the sun gets higher in the sky the daily totals are rising.
Yesterday was 11.25kWh. Instantaneous power available is regularly in
excess of 1.6kW and can exceed 2kW
Even on a grey day when it is raining, 3-4kWh are produced per day


so in *real* terms it produces an input worth between 12p and 45p per
day, if you discount the ridiculous subsidies.


Bob

Depends how you want to evaluate it.
If I arrange to consume or in some way store that energy that I would
otherwise pay 11-12p per kWh for, it can be worth 45p to £1.25 per day.

Bob

On Apr 20, 10:33*pm, tony sayer wrote:
I too have just had a PV array fitted. *The old "Disk" meters would
run backwards, the new electronic ones won't.
You will normally only get an export meter if you have a large array.
They just assume you are using 50% of the energy generated for the
export tarif.

And just *how much power are these generating on an average day ?..
--
Tony Sayer

I have a new 3.88 Kw array. At this very moment it's doing 3Kw. It
was switched on at 0830 today. It has done nearly 6Kwh to time(1050)
Bright & sunny weather.

On Thu, 21 Apr 2011 00:15:21 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

tony sayer wrote:
I too have just had a PV array fitted. The old "Disk" meters would
run backwards, the new electronic ones won't.
You will normally only get an export meter if you have a large array.
They just assume you are using 50% of the energy generated for the
export tarif.

And just how much power are these generating on an average day ?..
about 30W/sq meter average.

Could be over a KW on a hot sunny day.

Oi Mush! No wonder the sun looks darker. Here's me freezing me nadgers
off because you are draining all the suns power.


Went to Asda today for a couple of smartprice duvets. Chuck me your
postal address and I'll send the receipts so that you can reimburse
me.


HN

On Apr 21, 10:30*am, Bob Minchin
wrote:

If I arrange to consume or in some way store that energy that I would
otherwise pay 11-12p per kWh for, it can be worth 45p to £1.25 per day.

Let's say a quid a day, because it's easier.

So how much did it cost? Any thoughts on the breakeven point?

On Apr 20, 5:10*pm, Bob Minchin
wrote:

I have found the answer herehttp://universalmeterservices.co.uk/store/images/5193.doc

Meter Memory

All the meters data is recorded in a Ferroelectric Random Access
Memory (FRAM) under the control of the microprocessor. All the kWh
registers are stored in the FRAM and are updated every 1/100 th of a
kWh. The FRAM is guaranteed for a minimum of 10,000,000,000 write
cycles


WTF? Core memory?! 8-)

Andy Dingley wrote:
On Apr 21, 10:30 am, Bob Minchin
wrote:

If I arrange to consume or in some way store that energy that I would
otherwise pay 11-12p per kWh for, it can be worth 45p to £1.25 per day.

Let's say a quid a day, because it's easier.

So how much did it cost? Any thoughts on the breakeven point?

Andy
If you are considering the breakeven point, then the incentive payments
dominate. So in addition to your rounded "quid a day" add a further 4
quid in incentives and exported power payments.
Then index link that at RPI ( the uplift used recently was 4.8%)
However, in practice it is quite difficult to manage domestic
consumption to follow the time profile of the sun's availability so
treat the "quid a day" as a bonus and just use the 4 quid a day

Lets say useful output for 200 days a year (a guess as I have no data yet)
So a minimum return of £800 per annum indexed and tax free.
Capital cost £8500 paid from savings that was otherwise earning 3/5ths
of f'all in the building society (taxed at 40% to boot)

Too many unknowns (RPI and electricity price inflation vs building
society interest rates) to work out a payback period but it should be
paid for in 10 years and the scheme contract runs for 25 years.

hth

Bob

Andy Dingley wrote:
On Apr 20, 5:10 pm, Bob Minchin
wrote:

I have found the answer herehttp://universalmeterservices.co.uk/store/images/5193.doc

Meter Memory

All the meters data is recorded in a Ferroelectric Random Access
Memory (FRAM) under the control of the microprocessor. All the kWh
registers are stored in the FRAM and are updated every 1/100 th of a
kWh. The FRAM is guaranteed for a minimum of 10,000,000,000 write
cycles


WTF? Core memory?! 8-)
Yes I found that difficult to credit but I suppose it maybe used to meet
a possible regulatory requirement for N years retention with no power
connected??

Having looked further, I think it is the 10,000,000,000 write cycles
that makes it ideal for this application to cope with the update rate.

Bob

On Apr 21, 11:27*pm, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Apr 21, 10:30*am, Bob Minchin

wrote:
If I arrange to consume or in some way store that energy that I would
otherwise pay 11-12p per kWh for, it can be worth 45p to £1.25 per day.

Let's say a quid a day, because it's easier.

So how much did it cost? Any thoughts on the breakeven point?

Wrong way to assess it. The return on investment is from 8% to
12%depending on severa lfactors. Better than you can achieve in the
bank/building society

On Apr 22, 3:50*am, Bob Minchin
wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Apr 21, 10:30 am, Bob Minchin
*wrote:

If I arrange to consume or in some way store that energy that I would
otherwise pay 11-12p per kWh for, it can be worth 45p to £1.25 per day.

Let's say a quid a day, because it's easier.

So how much did it cost? Any thoughts on the breakeven point?

Andy
If you are considering the breakeven point, then the incentive payments
dominate. So in addition to your rounded "quid a day" add a further 4
quid in incentives and exported power payments.
Then index link that at RPI ( the uplift used recently was 4.8%)
However, in practice it is quite difficult to manage domestic
consumption to follow the time profile of the sun's availability so
treat the "quid a day" as a bonus and just use the 4 quid a day

Lets say useful output for 200 days a year (a guess as I have no data yet)
So a minimum return of £800 per annum indexed and tax free.
Capital cost £8500 paid from savings that was otherwise earning 3/5ths
of f'all in the building society (taxed at 40% to boot)

Too many unknowns (RPI and electricity price inflation vs building
society interest rates) to work out a payback period but it should be
paid for in 10 years and the scheme contract runs for 25 years.

hth

Bob

There is a map of numbers.The numbers indicate the Kwh you will
generate per year for every Kw of installed PV array.
In the UK it ranges from 750 to 870. Obviously the jocks and taffs
have it worst.
You need to get the map and see what the number is where you live.
These numbers are average as of course the climate varies.
My number is 850. I have a 4 Kw array. So I should generate 3400 Kwh
worth about £1650 if all is taken into account.
My array cost £14,000 so the return should be 11.8%. Where else can
you get that tax free, inflation linked for 25 years?

harry wrote:
On Apr 22, 3:50 am, Bob Minchin
wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Apr 21, 10:30 am, Bob Minchin
wrote:

If I arrange to consume or in some way store that energy that I would
otherwise pay 11-12p per kWh for, it can be worth 45p to £1.25 per day.

Let's say a quid a day, because it's easier.

So how much did it cost? Any thoughts on the breakeven point?

Andy
If you are considering the breakeven point, then the incentive payments
dominate. So in addition to your rounded "quid a day" add a further 4
quid in incentives and exported power payments.
Then index link that at RPI ( the uplift used recently was 4.8%)
However, in practice it is quite difficult to manage domestic
consumption to follow the time profile of the sun's availability so
treat the "quid a day" as a bonus and just use the 4 quid a day

Lets say useful output for 200 days a year (a guess as I have no data yet)
So a minimum return of £800 per annum indexed and tax free.
Capital cost £8500 paid from savings that was otherwise earning 3/5ths
of f'all in the building society (taxed at 40% to boot)

Too many unknowns (RPI and electricity price inflation vs building
society interest rates) to work out a payback period but it should be
paid for in 10 years and the scheme contract runs for 25 years.

hth

Bob

There is a map of numbers.The numbers indicate the Kwh you will
generate per year for every Kw of installed PV array.
In the UK it ranges from 750 to 870. Obviously the jocks and taffs
have it worst.
You need to get the map and see what the number is where you live.
These numbers are average as of course the climate varies.
My number is 850. I have a 4 Kw array. So I should generate 3400 Kwh
worth about £1650 if all is taken into account.
My array cost £14,000 so the return should be 11.8%. Where else can
you get that tax free, inflation linked for 25 years?
Do you have a link to that map Harry?

TIA

Bob

On Apr 22, 3:50*am, Bob Minchin
wrote:

However, in practice it is quite difficult to manage domestic
consumption to follow the time profile of the sun's availability so
treat the "quid a day" as a bonus and just use the 4 quid a day

It did strike me that a better situation would be a house with two
separate supplies, and fitting the PV to one of these, that you don't
use any supply for yourself. Given the subsidies, this "magic solar
electricity" is far too valuable to use yourself.

By strange circumstance, I happen to have two electricity supplies to
this place...

harry wrote:

My array cost £14,000 so the return should be 11.8%. Where else can
you get that tax free, inflation linked for 25 years?

Is that a fair comparison when you can get your capital back from a bank but
you will not sell the panels+inverter back for the original installed price
in 10 years even forgetting inflation?

AJH

harry wrote:
On Apr 21, 11:27 pm, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Apr 21, 10:30 am, Bob Minchin

wrote:
If I arrange to consume or in some way store that energy that I would
otherwise pay 11-12p per kWh for, it can be worth 45p to £1.25 per day.
Let's say a quid a day, because it's easier.

So how much did it cost? Any thoughts on the breakeven point?

Wrong way to assess it. The return on investment is from 8% to
12%depending on severa lfactors. Better than you can achieve in the
bank/building society
Not as good as investing in a nuclear fund though. :-)

On Apr 22, 4:00*am, Bob Minchin
wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Apr 20, 5:10 pm, Bob Minchin
*wrote:

I have found the answer herehttp://universalmeterservices.co.uk/store/images/5193.doc

Meter Memory

All the meters data is recorded in a Ferroelectric Random Access
Memory (FRAM) under the control of the microprocessor. *All the kWh
registers are stored in the FRAM and are updated every 1/100 th of a
kWh. *The FRAM is guaranteed for a minimum of 10,000,000,000 write
cycles

WTF? *Core memory?! *8-)

Yes I found that difficult to credit but I suppose it maybe used to meet
a possible regulatory requirement for N years retention with no power
connected??

Not quite core, but not completely unrelated and quite interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferroelectric_RAM

My array cost £14,000 so the return should be 11.8%. Where else can
you get that tax free, inflation linked for 25 years?

Is that a fair comparison when you can get your capital back from a
bank but you will not sell the panels+inverter back for the original
installed price in 10 years even forgetting inflation?

I find it more helpful to look at it as a 25 year annuity, indexed to
the RPI. For a capital outlay of £14,000 Harry receives an annual
income of £1,650 index-linked to the RPI. That's an annuity rate of
11.8%. By comparison a man of 65 (so with a life expectancy 25 years)
would get a single, RPI-linked annuity of around £440 a year. And the
annuity is taxable where the feed-in tariff is not. So, surprise
surprise, those with big houses have piled in making feed-in tariffs a
deeply regressive tax - or if you prefer, middle class welfare payments


--
Robin
PM may be sent to rbw0{at}hotmail{dot}com

Andy Dingley wrote:
On Apr 22, 3:50 am, Bob Minchin
wrote:

However, in practice it is quite difficult to manage domestic
consumption to follow the time profile of the sun's availability so
treat the "quid a day" as a bonus and just use the 4 quid a day

It did strike me that a better situation would be a house with two
separate supplies, and fitting the PV to one of these, that you don't
use any supply for yourself. Given the subsidies, this "magic solar
electricity" is far too valuable to use yourself.

By strange circumstance, I happen to have two electricity supplies to
this place...
I think you might have missed the point a bit Andy.

You get paid the tariffs based on what you generate NOT what you feed
into the grid*. You are even better off if you can use the power as well
but that is not easy as a normal household is not running high power
loads in the middle of bright sunny days.


*until smart metering is rolled out when they will be able to
differentiate between power flowing in different directions and read the
data remotely.

Bob

andrew wrote:
harry wrote:

My array cost £14,000 so the return should be 11.8%. Where else can
you get that tax free, inflation linked for 25 years?

Is that a fair comparison when you can get your capital back from a bank but
you will not sell the panels+inverter back for the original installed price
in 10 years even forgetting inflation?

AJH
Yes that is a factor but the buying power of the capital investment
after 25 years will be much reduced. Possibly around 30-40% with typical
inflation rates of a few percent per annum.

Bob

Bob Minchin wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Apr 22, 3:50 am, Bob Minchin
wrote:

However, in practice it is quite difficult to manage domestic
consumption to follow the time profile of the sun's availability so
treat the "quid a day" as a bonus and just use the 4 quid a day

It did strike me that a better situation would be a house with two
separate supplies, and fitting the PV to one of these, that you don't
use any supply for yourself. Given the subsidies, this "magic solar
electricity" is far too valuable to use yourself.

By strange circumstance, I happen to have two electricity supplies to
this place...
I think you might have missed the point a bit Andy.

You get paid the tariffs based on what you generate NOT what you feed
into the grid*. You are even better off if you can use the power as
well but that is not easy as a normal household is not running high
power loads in the middle of bright sunny days.


*until smart metering is rolled out when they will be able to
differentiate between power flowing in different directions and read
the data remotely.

So fit an aircon unit:-)
--
Adam

Robin wrote:
My array cost £14,000 so the return should be 11.8%. Where else can
you get that tax free, inflation linked for 25 years?

Is that a fair comparison when you can get your capital back from a
bank but you will not sell the panels+inverter back for the original
installed price in 10 years even forgetting inflation?

I find it more helpful to look at it as a 25 year annuity, indexed to
the RPI. For a capital outlay of £14,000 Harry receives an annual
income of £1,650 index-linked to the RPI. That's an annuity rate of
11.8%. By comparison a man of 65 (so with a life expectancy25 years)
would get a single, RPI-linked annuity of around £440 a year. And the
annuity is taxable where the feed-in tariff is not. So, surprise
surprise, those with big houses have piled in making feed-in tariffs a
deeply regressive tax - or if you prefer, middle class welfare payments


Having paid tax equivalent to the price of two small family cars each
year through most of my working life, I'm pleased to be getting a bit of
that back now. Oh yes, no state pension yet, no benefit payouts and
still supporting 24 yo son who can't get work or dole. No big house
either btw.

Bob

On Apr 22, 8:42*am, Bob Minchin
wrote:
harry wrote:
On Apr 22, 3:50 am, Bob Minchin
*wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Apr 21, 10:30 am, Bob Minchin
* *wrote:

If I arrange to consume or in some way store that energy that I would
otherwise pay 11-12p per kWh for, it can be worth 45p to £1.25 per day.

Let's say a quid a day, because it's easier.

So how much did it cost? Any thoughts on the breakeven point?

Andy
If you are considering the breakeven point, then the incentive payments
dominate. So in addition to your rounded "quid a day" add a further 4
quid in incentives and exported power payments.
Then index link that at RPI ( the uplift used recently was 4.8%)
However, in practice it is quite difficult to manage domestic
consumption to follow the time profile of the sun's availability so
treat the "quid a day" as a bonus and just use the 4 quid a day

Lets say useful output for 200 days a year (a guess as I have no data yet)
So a minimum return of £800 per annum indexed and tax free.
Capital cost £8500 paid from savings that was otherwise earning 3/5ths
of f'all in the building society (taxed at 40% to boot)

Too many unknowns (RPI and electricity price inflation vs building
society interest rates) to work out a payback period but it should be
paid for in 10 years and the scheme contract runs for 25 years.

hth

Bob

There is a map of numbers.The numbers indicate the Kwh you will
generate per year *for every Kw of installed PV array.
In the UK it ranges from 750 to 870. *Obviously the jocks and taffs
have it worst.
You need to get the map and see what the number is where you live.
These numbers are average as of course the climate varies.
My number is 850. *I have a 4 Kw array. So I should generate *3400 Kwh
worth about £1650 if all is taken into account.
My array cost £14,000 so the return should be 11.8%. Where else can
you get that tax free, inflation linked for 25 years?

Do you have a link to that map Harry?

TIA

Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If your email address is valid I will forward one of the quotes I got
which includes the map.

harry wrote:
On Apr 22, 8:42 am, Bob Minchin
wrote:
harry wrote:
On Apr 22, 3:50 am, Bob Minchin
wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Apr 21, 10:30 am, Bob Minchin
wrote:

If I arrange to consume or in some way store that energy that I would
otherwise pay 11-12p per kWh for, it can be worth 45p to £1.25 per day.

Let's say a quid a day, because it's easier.

So how much did it cost? Any thoughts on the breakeven point?

Andy
If you are considering the breakeven point, then the incentive payments
dominate. So in addition to your rounded "quid a day" add a further 4
quid in incentives and exported power payments.
Then index link that at RPI ( the uplift used recently was 4.8%)
However, in practice it is quite difficult to manage domestic
consumption to follow the time profile of the sun's availability so
treat the "quid a day" as a bonus and just use the 4 quid a day

Lets say useful output for 200 days a year (a guess as I have no data yet)
So a minimum return of £800 per annum indexed and tax free.
Capital cost £8500 paid from savings that was otherwise earning 3/5ths
of f'all in the building society (taxed at 40% to boot)

Too many unknowns (RPI and electricity price inflation vs building
society interest rates) to work out a payback period but it should be
paid for in 10 years and the scheme contract runs for 25 years.

hth

Bob

There is a map of numbers.The numbers indicate the Kwh you will
generate per year for every Kw of installed PV array.
In the UK it ranges from 750 to 870. Obviously the jocks and taffs
have it worst.
You need to get the map and see what the number is where you live.
These numbers are average as of course the climate varies.
My number is 850. I have a 4 Kw array. So I should generate 3400 Kwh
worth about £1650 if all is taken into account.
My array cost £14,000 so the return should be 11.8%. Where else can
you get that tax free, inflation linked for 25 years?

Do you have a link to that map Harry?

TIA

Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If your email address is valid I will forward one of the quotes I got
which includes the map.
Thanks Harry,

The address is valid once you have removed your hat ie all text in capitals.

Bob

ARWadsworth wrote:
Bob wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Apr 22, 3:50 am, Bob Minchin
wrote:

However, in practice it is quite difficult to manage domestic
consumption to follow the time profile of the sun's availability so
treat the "quid a day" as a bonus and just use the 4 quid a day

It did strike me that a better situation would be a house with two
separate supplies, and fitting the PV to one of these, that you don't
use any supply for yourself. Given the subsidies, this "magic solar
electricity" is far too valuable to use yourself.

By strange circumstance, I happen to have two electricity supplies to
this place...
I think you might have missed the point a bit Andy.

You get paid the tariffs based on what you generate NOT what you feed
into the grid*. You are even better off if you can use the power as
well but that is not easy as a normal household is not running high
power loads in the middle of bright sunny days.


*until smart metering is rolled out when they will be able to
differentiate between power flowing in different directions and read
the data remotely.

So fit an aircon unit:-)
That is about the only load that I have come up with that is needed when
the solar PV output is at it's peak.

Maybe one day?

Bob

That is about the only load that I have come up with that is needed
when the solar PV output is at it's peak.


Could you not use the PV o/p to drive a large fan which is pointed at a
small wind turbine which also qualifies for the subsidies?

--
Robin
PM may be sent to rbw0{at}hotmail{dot}com

On Apr 22, 8:42*am, Bob Minchin
wrote:
harry wrote:
On Apr 22, 3:50 am, Bob Minchin
*wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Apr 21, 10:30 am, Bob Minchin
* *wrote:

If I arrange to consume or in some way store that energy that I would
otherwise pay 11-12p per kWh for, it can be worth 45p to £1.25 per day.

Let's say a quid a day, because it's easier.

So how much did it cost? Any thoughts on the breakeven point?

Andy
If you are considering the breakeven point, then the incentive payments
dominate. So in addition to your rounded "quid a day" add a further 4
quid in incentives and exported power payments.
Then index link that at RPI ( the uplift used recently was 4.8%)
However, in practice it is quite difficult to manage domestic
consumption to follow the time profile of the sun's availability so
treat the "quid a day" as a bonus and just use the 4 quid a day

Lets say useful output for 200 days a year (a guess as I have no data yet)
So a minimum return of £800 per annum indexed and tax free.
Capital cost £8500 paid from savings that was otherwise earning 3/5ths
of f'all in the building society (taxed at 40% to boot)

Too many unknowns (RPI and electricity price inflation vs building
society interest rates) to work out a payback period but it should be
paid for in 10 years and the scheme contract runs for 25 years.

hth

Bob

There is a map of numbers.The numbers indicate the Kwh you will
generate per year *for every Kw of installed PV array.
In the UK it ranges from 750 to 870. *Obviously the jocks and taffs
have it worst.
You need to get the map and see what the number is where you live.
These numbers are average as of course the climate varies.
My number is 850. *I have a 4 Kw array. So I should generate *3400 Kwh
worth about £1650 if all is taken into account.
My array cost £14,000 so the return should be 11.8%. Where else can
you get that tax free, inflation linked for 25 years?

Do you have a link to that map Harry?

TIA

Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have emailed information to you. I think have deduced your email
address
:-)

On Apr 22, 9:26*am, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Apr 22, 3:50*am, Bob Minchin

wrote:
However, in practice it is quite difficult to manage domestic
consumption to follow the time profile of the sun's availability so
treat the "quid a day" as a bonus and just use the 4 quid a day

It did strike me that a better situation would be a house with two
separate supplies, and fitting the PV to one of these, that you don't
use any supply for yourself. Given the subsidies, this "magic solar
electricity" is far too valuable to use yourself.

By strange circumstance, I happen to have two electricity supplies to
this place...

Not neccesary. I am retired now. We are modifying our lifestyle to
fit in with availabilty of free electricity.
All you have to do is look at the inverter. If there's sufficient KW
being generated to run whatever, we carry on.

On Apr 22, 12:11*pm, Bob Minchin
wrote:

You get paid the tariffs based on what you generate NOT what you feed
into the grid*.

OK, that's not how I understood it to work. I thought it was a two-way
meter in your supply, and you were paid for "running it backwards"

So how do they meter that? Where's the in-house meter between your
panels and your immersion heater? Do they indeed meter it, or do they
just pay some calculated rate, based on the panel capacity?

On Apr 22, 12:40*pm, "Robin" wrote:

Could you not use the PV o/p to drive a large fan which is pointed at a
small wind turbine which also qualifies for the subsidies?

Hmmm..... I've got a rig in the shed at the moment where a motor is
driving a couple of home-brew wind turbine alternators. It's a lot
easier to test them this way than doing it up the pole!

On Apr 22, 10:00*am, andrew wrote:
harry wrote:
My array cost £14,000 so the return should be 11.8%. Where else can
you get that tax free, inflation linked for 25 years?

Is that a fair comparison when you can get your capital back from a bank but
you will not sell the panels+inverter back for the original installed price
in 10 years even forgetting inflation?

AJH

In ten years or less they will have paid for themselves. Look at how
inflation is going man!
You do things for tomorrow's energy prices, not for todays.
I am now a net exporter of energy and a net importer of cash. There
will be more cash next year. The energy I save will be worth more too.
I have no gas bill. (Massive insulation.)

On Apr 22, 10:34*am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
harry wrote:
On Apr 21, 11:27 pm, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Apr 21, 10:30 am, Bob Minchin

wrote:
If I arrange to consume or in some way store that energy that I would
otherwise pay 11-12p per kWh for, it can be worth 45p to £1.25 per day.
Let's say a quid a day, because it's easier.

So how much did it cost? Any thoughts on the breakeven point?

Wrong way to assess it. The return on investment is from 8% to
12%depending on severa lfactors. *Better than you can achieve in the
bank/building society

Not as good as investing in a nuclear fund though. :-)

Nuclear is finished for ten years at least after ****ushima. The price
of gas & electrcity will go through the roof. (We're all doomed.
Armagedon is nigh!! :-)
For you that is. Not me.

On Apr 22, 11:42*am, "Robin" wrote:
My array cost 14,000 so the return should be 11.8%. Where else can
you get that tax free, inflation linked for 25 years?

Is that a fair comparison when you can get your capital back from a
bank but you will not sell the panels+inverter back for the original
installed price in 10 years even forgetting inflation?

I find it more helpful to look at it as a 25 year annuity, indexed to
the RPI. *For a capital outlay of * 14,000 Harry receives an annual
income of 1,650 index-linked to the RPI. *That's an annuity rate of
11.8%. *By comparison a man of 65 (so with a life expectancy 25 years)
would get a single, RPI-linked annuity of around 440 a year. And the
annuity is taxable where the feed-in tariff is not. *So, surprise
surprise, those with big houses have piled in making feed-in tariffs a
deeply regressive tax - or if you prefer, middle class welfare payments


--
Robin
PM may be sent to rbw0{at}hotmail{dot}com

You are exactly correct. Also the energy I don't use will be worth
more. I believeenergycostswillgothrought the roof this next few years.
The only hazard is the reliabilty of the technology. But there is a
five year guarantee.

Hey I just had an idea.I could run a wire to my nieghbour from my
house and sell him surplus electricty!!!!!!!! I only get 3p/Kwh for
exported power.
Bloody hell. I could be rich.

Nuclear is finished for ten years at least after ****ushima. The price
of gas & electricity will go through the roof. (We're all doomed.
Armagedon is nigh!! :-)
For you that is. Not me.

Reasonable forecast - unless us poor, huddling masses find out where you
live before we succumb

Now where in the Wiki does it deal with making torches and pitchforks,
and with storming castles, please?
--
Robin
PM may be sent to rbw0{at}hotmail{dot}com

On Apr 22, 12:19*pm, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:
Bob Minchin wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Apr 22, 3:50 am, Bob Minchin
*wrote:

However, in practice it is quite difficult to manage domestic
consumption to follow the time profile of the sun's availability so
treat the "quid a day" as a bonus and just use the 4 quid a day

It did strike me that a better situation would be a house with two
separate supplies, and fitting the PV to one of these, that you don't
use any supply for yourself. Given the subsidies, this "magic solar
electricity" is far too valuable to use yourself.

By strange circumstance, I happen to have two electricity supplies to
this place...
I think you might have missed the point a bit Andy.

You get paid the tariffs based on what you generate NOT what you feed
into the grid*. You are even better off if you can use the power as
well but that is not easy as a normal household is not running high
power loads in the middle of bright sunny days.

*until smart metering is rolled out when they will be able to
differentiate between power flowing in different directions and read
the data remotely.

So fit an aircon unit:-)
--
Adam- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nah Nah. Next year they are going to do the Renewable Heat
Incentive. (Domestic). I may get a heat pump. They are going to be
paying out for green heat. I would get paid twice then for electricty.
Run the heat pump by day.

Or an electric storage heater. Heat it by day and heat comes out by
night.

I have just fitted a timer to the fish pond stuff. They can do without
their filter by night.

We are now having our main meal at midday instead of the evening.

If we go out the cooker has a timer. I need one for the washing
machine.

Hey, I could let the wife have a tumble dryer now!

The ideas are coming in!