Took the handyvan (Renault Kangoo) in for an MOT Friday. Failed on a
few minor points, one of which was "Nearside rear position lamp
adversly affected by the operation of another lamp". Says the same
for the nearside.

Took the clusters off today (the only simple thing to do on a Kangoo -
bloody French)

No obvious fault, remade the earth connection to bare metal, WD40
liberally applied.

SWMBO returned from shopping so I got her to operate brake pedals,
switches etc while I watched.

The van has the sort of rear lights where the side light just gets
brighter when you push the brake pedel - e.g. it isn't a seperate
brake light.

I can't see a thing wrong. Couldn't check beforehand tho cos I was
alone.

I assume "Nearside rear position lamp" means 'sidelight' in plain
English?

The sidelights work - so I can't imagine what they are on about? I
though vehicle lights either worked or didn't?


Dave TMH

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...
Took the handyvan (Renault Kangoo) in for an MOT Friday. Failed on a
few minor points, one of which was "Nearside rear position lamp
adversly affected by the operation of another lamp". Says the same
for the nearside.

Took the clusters off today (the only simple thing to do on a Kangoo -
bloody French)

No obvious fault, remade the earth connection to bare metal, WD40
liberally applied.

SWMBO returned from shopping so I got her to operate brake pedals,
switches etc while I watched.

The van has the sort of rear lights where the side light just gets
brighter when you push the brake pedel - e.g. it isn't a seperate
brake light.

I can't see a thing wrong. Couldn't check beforehand tho cos I was
alone.

I assume "Nearside rear position lamp" means 'sidelight' in plain
English?

The sidelights work - so I can't imagine what they are on about? I
though vehicle lights either worked or didn't?


Dave TMH





I think that what you are describing is a twin filament bulb. They have two
contacts on the base and are usually (If I recall 5 and 21 watts) A bad
earth can cause strange problems.

The Medway Handyman gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

I though vehicle lights either worked or didn't?

Did you try the indicators & brakes at the same time, with and without
the lights on?

Especially with dual-filament bulbs, a ropy earth can lead to all sorts
of strangenesses if there's a dodgy earth - usually seen as Xmas Trees
when coincidental paths to earth via other circuits start to run out.

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Took the handyvan (Renault Kangoo) in for an MOT Friday. Failed on a
few minor points, one of which was "Nearside rear position lamp
adversly affected by the operation of another lamp". Says the same
for the nearside.

Took the clusters off today (the only simple thing to do on a Kangoo -
bloody French)

No obvious fault, remade the earth connection to bare metal, WD40
liberally applied.

SWMBO returned from shopping so I got her to operate brake pedals,
switches etc while I watched.

The van has the sort of rear lights where the side light just gets
brighter when you push the brake pedel - e.g. it isn't a seperate
brake light.

I can't see a thing wrong. Couldn't check beforehand tho cos I was
alone.

I assume "Nearside rear position lamp" means 'sidelight' in plain
English?

The sidelights work - so I can't imagine what they are on about? I
though vehicle lights either worked or didn't?


Dave TMH

Affected by the indicators by any chance?

BTW, just to rub it in, my van passed with just one advisory on Tuesday. The
advisory was that there is rust on the rear of the exhaust pipe section. TBH
I knew that last year and until it starts to blow there seems no reason to
swap it.

--
Adam

On Jan 2, 6:23*pm, Adrian wrote:
The Medway Handyman gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

I though vehicle lights either worked or didn't?

Did you try the indicators & brakes at the same time, with and without
the lights on?

Yup

Especially with dual-filament bulbs, a ropy earth can lead to all sorts
of strangenesses if there's a dodgy earth - usually seen as Xmas Trees
when coincidental paths to earth via other circuits start to run out.

That could be it I guess. The earth connection was a terminal bolted
to a welded on nut covered in paint. I took the paint off with a
file. Now 100% certain thats OK.

Didn't have to chance to see what the fault might have been, was on my
own.

Dave TMH

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...
Took the handyvan (Renault Kangoo) in for an MOT Friday. Failed on a
few minor points, one of which was "Nearside rear position lamp
adversly affected by the operation of another lamp". Says the same
for the nearside.

Took the clusters off today (the only simple thing to do on a Kangoo -
bloody French)

No obvious fault, remade the earth connection to bare metal, WD40
liberally applied.

SWMBO returned from shopping so I got her to operate brake pedals,
switches etc while I watched.

The van has the sort of rear lights where the side light just gets
brighter when you push the brake pedel - e.g. it isn't a seperate
brake light.

I can't see a thing wrong. Couldn't check beforehand tho cos I was
alone.

I assume "Nearside rear position lamp" means 'sidelight' in plain
English?

The sidelights work - so I can't imagine what they are on about? I
though vehicle lights either worked or didn't?


Dave TMH

Dave,
I think ' The van has the sort of rear lights where the side light just gets
brighter when you push the brake pedel - e.g. it isn't a seperate
brake light' refers to a double filament bulb.
Check the bulbs, probably twin pole with offset retaining pins so that the
bulb can only fit into the holder one way.
The metal sheath of the bulb acts as earth. One filament for sidelight and
the other for brake.
If both filaments look good, clean the inner recess of the bulbholders and
also the metal sheath of the bulbs. A little bit of emery tape wrapped round
your finger works unless you have summat better.
If that don't work, check all with a tester (but carefully) and preferably
at the nearby multi-connnector.
If these are good then test circuit between each pole and earth, but even
more carefully.
These days of electronics much damage can be done, it doesn't just blow a
fuse any more (
In short, check your bulbs, bulbholders and supplies to them.

Angle grinder not recommended, although..........

HTH
Nick.

The Medway Handyman gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

Didn't have to chance to see what the fault might have been, was on my
own.

Reflection in a window? Weight the brake pedal down with a toolbox or
something?

On 02/01/2011 18:55, Adrian wrote:
The Medway gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

Didn't have to chance to see what the fault might have been, was on my
own.

Reflection in a window? Weight the brake pedal down with a toolbox or
something?

Indeed. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of yer average DIY-er to devise a
way to hold the brake pedal down. I lean a heavy block of wood on mine.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On 02/01/2011 18:15, The Medway Handyman wrote:
Took the handyvan (Renault Kangoo) in for an MOT Friday. Failed on a
few minor points, one of which was "Nearside rear position lamp
adversly affected by the operation of another lamp". Says the same
for the nearside.

Took the clusters off today (the only simple thing to do on a Kangoo -
bloody French)

No obvious fault, remade the earth connection to bare metal, WD40
liberally applied.

SWMBO returned from shopping so I got her to operate brake pedals,
switches etc while I watched.

The van has the sort of rear lights where the side light just gets
brighter when you push the brake pedel - e.g. it isn't a seperate
brake light.

I can't see a thing wrong. Couldn't check beforehand tho cos I was
alone.

I assume "Nearside rear position lamp" means 'sidelight' in plain
English?

The sidelights work - so I can't imagine what they are on about? I
though vehicle lights either worked or didn't?


Dave TMH



As others have said, it's pretty certainly an earthing fault. You need
to make sure that:
1) the light cluster is properly earthed to the bodywork, and
2) the bulb bodies make proper contact with their metal holders

If the earths are not good, you get the sort of problem where a low
powered light (5w sidelight) can be earthed via the filaments of a more
powerful light(21w stop light or direction indicator) instead of
directly, and can appear to be working ok until the brighter lamp is
turned on - whereupon it promptly goes out. Seen it many times -
particularly on trailers.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

In article ,
says...
Indeed. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of yer average DIY-er to devise a
way to hold the brake pedal down. I lean a heavy block of wood on mine.


Wife.

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

Roger Mills wrote:
On 02/01/2011 18:55, Adrian wrote:
The Medway gurgled happily,
sounding much like they were saying:

Didn't have to chance to see what the fault might have been, was on
my own.

Reflection in a window? Weight the brake pedal down with a toolbox or
something?

Indeed. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of yer average DIY-er to
devise a way to hold the brake pedal down. I lean a heavy block of
wood on mine.

Well it is The Meddling Half-wit posting - a simple solution to a simple
problem that seems to be beyond him yet again.

On Jan 2, 9:02*pm, Roger Mills wrote:

As others have said, it's pretty certainly an earthing fault.

You can diagnose rear light cluster earthing faults quite easily -
look for a Ford or Renault badge. However they make them, they haven't
got reliable earths to the rear clusters.

On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 14:40:01 -0800 (PST), Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Jan 2, 9:02*pm, Roger Mills wrote:

As others have said, it's pretty certainly an earthing fault.

You can diagnose rear light cluster earthing faults quite easily -
look for a Ford or Renault badge. However they make them, they haven't
got reliable earths to the rear clusters.

It would probably be much better to use a wire "earth" return, rather
than rely on the chassis.

--
Frank Erskine

"Frank Erskine" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 14:40:01 -0800 (PST), Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Jan 2, 9:02 pm, Roger Mills wrote:

As others have said, it's pretty certainly an earthing fault.

You can diagnose rear light cluster earthing faults quite easily -
look for a Ford or Renault badge. However they make them, they haven't
got reliable earths to the rear clusters.

It would probably be much better to use a wire "earth" return, rather
than rely on the chassis.

--
Frank Erskine


....or good earth contacts to the bulb caps.

On Jan 2, 11:15*pm, "John" wrote:

...or good earth contacts to the bulb caps.

A bulb with a failed cap contact just goes out.

A cluster with a failed earth to the cluster shows ghost ilumination
through other bulbs (usually stop or fog, as they're the lowest
impedance)

Frank Erskine wrote:
On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 14:40:01 -0800 (PST), Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Jan 2, 9:02 pm, Roger Mills wrote:

As others have said, it's pretty certainly an earthing fault.

You can diagnose rear light cluster earthing faults quite easily -
look for a Ford or Renault badge. However they make them, they
haven't got reliable earths to the rear clusters.

It would probably be much better to use a wire "earth" return, rather
than rely on the chassis.

No experience with the Kagoo but I presume that the rear light cluster has a
'buzz bar' type of common earth that could suffer from corrosion, there
could be a problem with the wire connection to this, a problem where one
filament on a twin filament bulb has failed (usually the lower wattage one)
allowing a leakeage to earth across the indicator light etc, could be
problem
with loose bulb or even a poor connection to the live or earth bulb
connections etc etc.

A *competent* DiYer usually finds the more persistent fault[s] by simply
taking the cluster off and:

1 Check the incoming cables at the connector for power etc with a
multimeter and clean off and remake the chassis earthpoint (with a French
car, that could be halfway down the body of the car and in the most
inaccessible of places [at least that was the situation on the wife's
Citroen when the bloody headlight/side light cluster started playing up a
few years ago]).

2 And if the above fails, take the rear cluster into a nice warm
workshop, remove and check all
the bulbs, then connect the cluster to a battery charger (or even a spare
battery) and methodically work through every electrical trail using a
multimeter or simply a good bulb with a couple of tails soldered onto it
until the problem is found - usually around 15 minutes to check and resolve
the problem.

On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 15:33:02 -0800 (PST), Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Jan 2, 11:15*pm, "John" wrote:

...or good earth contacts to the bulb caps.

A bulb with a failed cap contact just goes out.

A cluster with a failed earth to the cluster shows ghost ilumination
through other bulbs (usually stop or fog, as they're the lowest
impedance)

Impedance? Are we talking AC car batteries here? ;-)))

--
Frank Erskine

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...
Took the handyvan (Renault Kangoo) in for an MOT Friday. Failed on a
few minor points, one of which was "Nearside rear position lamp
adversly affected by the operation of another lamp". Says the same
for the nearside.

Took the clusters off today (the only simple thing to do on a Kangoo -
bloody French)

No obvious fault, remade the earth connection to bare metal, WD40
liberally applied.

SWMBO returned from shopping so I got her to operate brake pedals,
switches etc while I watched.

The van has the sort of rear lights where the side light just gets
brighter when you push the brake pedel - e.g. it isn't a seperate
brake light.

I can't see a thing wrong. Couldn't check beforehand tho cos I was
alone.

I assume "Nearside rear position lamp" means 'sidelight' in plain
English?

The sidelights work - so I can't imagine what they are on about? I
though vehicle lights either worked or didn't?


The commonest problem I have come across with dual filament bulbs is where
one filament has broken and welded itself to the other. Thus when the
brake pedal is pressed, current flows from the brake light circuit into the
side light circuit. I have experienced this at least a dozen times over
the years and it certainly fits the description of "Nearside rear position
lamp adversly affected by the operation of another lamp".
--
Tinkerer

On Jan 3, 9:45 am, "Tinkerer"
wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in ...



Took the handyvan (Renault Kangoo) in for an MOT Friday. Failed on a
few minor points, one of which was "Nearside rear position lamp
adversly affected by the operation of another lamp". Says the same
for the nearside.

Took the clusters off today (the only simple thing to do on a Kangoo -
bloody French)

No obvious fault, remade the earth connection to bare metal, WD40
liberally applied.

SWMBO returned from shopping so I got her to operate brake pedals,
switches etc while I watched.

The van has the sort of rear lights where the side light just gets
brighter when you push the brake pedel - e.g. it isn't a seperate
brake light.

I can't see a thing wrong. Couldn't check beforehand tho cos I was
alone.

I assume "Nearside rear position lamp" means 'sidelight' in plain
English?

The sidelights work - so I can't imagine what they are on about? I
though vehicle lights either worked or didn't?

The commonest problem I have come across with dual filament bulbs is where
one filament has broken and welded itself to the other. Thus when the
brake pedal is pressed, current flows from the brake light circuit into the
side light circuit. I have experienced this at least a dozen times over
the years and it certainly fits the description of "Nearside rear position
lamp adversly affected by the operation of another lamp".
--
Tinkerer

also I don't think anyone has mentioned that it is possible to force a
stop/tail bulb in the socket the "wrong" way around - thus making the
larger/brighter brake filament to work as tail light and vice
versa....

I see it regularly enough in provincial towns, rarely on motorways...

would that suit the tester's fault description?

Jim K

In article ,
Frank Erskine wrote:
On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 14:40:01 -0800 (PST), Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Jan 2, 9:02 pm, Roger Mills wrote:

As others have said, it's pretty certainly an earthing fault.

You can diagnose rear light cluster earthing faults quite easily -
look for a Ford or Renault badge. However they make them, they haven't
got reliable earths to the rear clusters.

It would probably be much better to use a wire "earth" return, rather
than rely on the chassis.

You've got a major problem if the 'chassis' doesn't provide a good ground.
Since that's the way it's done on every vehicle made of steel. Only glass
fibre ones need earth returns.

I dunno this vehicle, but the rear light ground may be clamped by a lamp
unit fixing screw. Which is a stupid way to do it. But faster for initial
assembly at the factory. Making a decent nut and bolt ground to a nearby
convenient part of the body is the way to go.

--
*Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article
,
The Medway Handyman wrote:
The van has the sort of rear lights where the side light just gets
brighter when you push the brake pedel - e.g. it isn't a seperate
brake light.

Are these twin filament ordinary bulbs - or LEDs? You can see the twin
filaments by looking at the bulb. Usually have two contacts plus the cap
which is the ground. Single filament usually just one contact plus cap.

--
*Succeed, in spite of management *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article f5d37609-2b5b-4fd7-b48c-
, says...
also I don't think anyone has mentioned that it is possible to force a
stop/tail bulb in the socket the "wrong" way around - thus making the
larger/brighter brake filament to work as tail light and vice
versa....


Many cars now use a variant which has the pins at 120° instead of 180°.

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

On Jan 3, 2:26 pm, Skipweasel wrote:
In article f5d37609-2b5b-4fd7-b48c-
, says...

also I don't think anyone has mentioned that it is possible to force a
stop/tail bulb in the socket the "wrong" way around - thus making the
larger/brighter brake filament to work as tail light and vice
versa....

Many cars now use a variant which has the pins at 120° instead of 180°.

ah... that probly explains whay it's seemingly common on older,
scruffier cars that I've seen around towns (but rarely seen on
motorways)

Jim K

On 02/01/2011 23:51, Frank Erskine wrote:
On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 15:33:02 -0800 (PST), Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Jan 2, 11:15 pm, wrote:

...or good earth contacts to the bulb caps.

A bulb with a failed cap contact just goes out.

A cluster with a failed earth to the cluster shows ghost ilumination
through other bulbs (usually stop or fog, as they're the lowest
impedance)

Impedance? Are we talking AC car batteries here? ;-)))


Car batteries run on AC with zero frequency and phase angle.g
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On 02/01/2011 23:33, Andy Dingley wrote:
On Jan 2, 11:15 pm, wrote:

...or good earth contacts to the bulb caps.

A bulb with a failed cap contact just goes out.

A cluster with a failed earth to the cluster shows ghost ilumination
through other bulbs (usually stop or fog, as they're the lowest
impedance)


The same thing can happen with a dual filament bulb if the cap isn't
earthed to the cluster.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On Jan 2, 9:37*pm, "Unbeliever" wrote:
Roger Mills wrote:
On 02/01/2011 18:55, Adrian wrote:
The Medway *gurgled happily,
sounding much like they were saying:

Didn't have to chance to see what the fault might have been, was on
my own.

Reflection in a window? Weight the brake pedal down with a toolbox or
something?

Indeed. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of yer average DIY-er to
devise a way to hold the brake pedal down. I lean a heavy block of
wood on mine.

Well it is The Meddling Half-wit posting - a simple solution to a simple
problem that seems to be beyond him yet again.


Santa didn't bring you a life for Xmas then?

\dave TMH

On Jan 2, 11:43*pm, "Unbeliever" wrote:
Frank Erskine wrote:
On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 14:40:01 -0800 (PST), Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Jan 2, 9:02 pm, Roger Mills wrote:

As others have said, it's pretty certainly an earthing fault.

You can diagnose rear light cluster earthing faults quite easily -
look for a Ford or Renault badge. However they make them, they
haven't got reliable earths to the rear clusters.

It would probably be much better to use a wire "earth" return, rather
than rely on the chassis.

No experience with the Kagoo

What a surprise. Last van you had as a failed foreman was prolly a
Ford Thames.

but I presume that the rear light cluster has a
'buzz bar' type of common earth

Errrm no it doesn't. I described the earth in the OP but your are too
****ing stupid to have read it properly.


Dave TMH

Skipweasel gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

also I don't think anyone has mentioned that it is possible to force a
stop/tail bulb in the socket the "wrong" way around - thus making the
larger/brighter brake filament to work as tail light and vice versa....

Many cars now use a variant which has the pins at 120° instead of 180°.

That's purely to stop people fitting "clear" bulbs (180deg pins) in a car
that requires coloured (120deg pins), though. Not seen it on dual-
filaments (one pin's higher than the other), but on 21w orange-tinted
indicators.

On Jan 2, 6:15*pm, The Medway Handyman
wrote:
Took the handyvan (Renault Kangoo) in for an MOT Friday. *Failed on a
few minor points, one of which was "Nearside rear position lamp
adversly affected by the operation of another lamp". *Says the same
for the nearside.


Cleaned eath, WD40 & two new bulbs + cleaning the holders - problem
sorted - thanks to all.



Dave TMH

In article ,
Adrian wrote:
Skipweasel gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

also I don't think anyone has mentioned that it is possible to force
a stop/tail bulb in the socket the "wrong" way around - thus making
the larger/brighter brake filament to work as tail light and vice
versa....

Many cars now use a variant which has the pins at 120° instead of 180°.

That's purely to stop people fitting "clear" bulbs (180deg pins) in a
car that requires coloured (120deg pins), though. Not seen it on dual-
filaments (one pin's higher than the other), but on 21w orange-tinted
indicators.

A neighbour had a Renault that used what looked like normal 5 watt tail
light bulbs, but with funny pins. Halfords didn't sell them. Perhaps a way
of forcing you to pay inflated main dealer prices.

--
*TEAMWORK...means never having to take all the blame yourself *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The Medway Handyman wrote:
On Jan 2, 11:43 pm, "Unbeliever" wrote:
Frank Erskine wrote:
On Sun, 2 Jan 2011 14:40:01 -0800 (PST), Andy Dingley
wrote:

On Jan 2, 9:02 pm, Roger Mills wrote:

As others have said, it's pretty certainly an earthing fault.

You can diagnose rear light cluster earthing faults quite easily -
look for a Ford or Renault badge. However they make them, they
haven't got reliable earths to the rear clusters.

It would probably be much better to use a wire "earth" return,
rather than rely on the chassis.

No experience with the Kagoo

What a surprise. Last van you had as a failed foreman was prolly a
Ford Thames.

Better a failed forman than a half-witted handyman any day, especially one
who lacks basic knowledge, slams is clients in newsgroups and is *such* a
drama queen - must great you wearing those dresses and suffering from PMT?

but I presume that the rear light cluster has a
'buzz bar' type of common earth

Errrm no it doesn't. I described the earth in the OP but your are too
****ing stupid to have read it properly.

No you meddling half-wit, there is more than one way to carry an earth on
vehicle or to produce the fault your are experiencing, but you lack the
knowledge to work it out - and that's why you have to make such a fuss
bluffing things out here and in DIY Banter.

But when you buy silly toys to work with, expect a stupid owner to try and
maintain it rather than letting the professionals do it - BTW, you didn't
take the toy to a garage offering cheap MOT's did you? If you did, then
you're a damn site thicker than even I thought. ROTFL

[to] Dave *THE* *MEDDLING* *HALF-WIT*

On Jan 3, 7:30*pm, "Unbeliever" wrote:


The usual ****e.

So, you didn't get a life for Xmas then?

Do you seriously believe that anyone regards you or your posts as the
slightest bit interesting or funny?

Do you seriously believe anyone takes the slightest notice of a sad
bitter **** like you?

You really do need to get a life, or some help. Your only
contribution to this group is to have a pathetic attempt at attacking
me.

In doing so you only reveal yourself as beeing a rather sad ****wit.

Keep digging.

Dave TMH