There I was tonight in this super newly installed electric shower (oh,
and gas - but that's for another tale) and using it for the first time.
10.5kW, 44Amps or thereabouts. Wired via an RCD and spliced into the
existing meter tails to the existing consumer unit. My thoughts are on
how great this mains pressure shower actually is.

Then the lights went out. Silence.

Great

Call for SWMBO. Nothing. She'd left the house to potter in the garden
shed. I'm wet, covered in soap suds, can't see a thing, where is the
blinkin torch...

Ah, the meter ain't displaying. We've blown the supplier main fuse. All
other fuses, trips and RCDs fine.

The guy from the emergency electrical service sorts it out, and we are
back on again. However, our supplier fuses are old - probably 50 or 60
years - and from his comments look to be wired with 30 amp fuse wire.
That said, the shower overload has taken out both the live and neutral
fuse wires. He whistles though his teeth, sez "neutral, that is weird"
and trundles off with a promise to be back tomorrow to uprate the fuses
to a more consumer friendly 100 amps.

I can't see anything strange in the neutral fuse expiring, it has been
on duty for ages - and the overload of our new shower has shown it the
cards. So why is this guy whistling through his teeth?

Is tomorrow going to be a likely sales opportunity for his company?

--
Adrian C

"Adrian C" wrote in message
...
There I was tonight in this super newly installed electric shower (oh, and
gas - but that's for another tale) and using it for the first time.
10.5kW, 44Amps or thereabouts. Wired via an RCD and spliced into the
existing meter tails to the existing consumer unit. My thoughts are on how
great this mains pressure shower actually is.

Then the lights went out. Silence.

Great

Call for SWMBO. Nothing. She'd left the house to potter in the garden
shed. I'm wet, covered in soap suds, can't see a thing, where is the
blinkin torch...

Ah, the meter ain't displaying. We've blown the supplier main fuse. All
other fuses, trips and RCDs fine.

The guy from the emergency electrical service sorts it out, and we are
back on again. However, our supplier fuses are old - probably 50 or 60
years - and from his comments look to be wired with 30 amp fuse wire. That
said, the shower overload has taken out both the live and neutral fuse
wires. He whistles though his teeth, sez "neutral, that is weird" and
trundles off with a promise to be back tomorrow to uprate the fuses to a
more consumer friendly 100 amps.

I can't see anything strange in the neutral fuse expiring, it has been on
duty for ages - and the overload of our new shower has shown it the cards.
So why is this guy whistling through his teeth?

Is tomorrow going to be a likely sales opportunity for his company?

--
Adrian C




Is it because neutrals are not fused now - in case a neutral only blows it
could leave the circuits live.

Adrian C wrote:

There I was tonight in this super newly installed electric shower (oh,
and gas - but that's for another tale) and using it for the first time.
10.5kW, 44Amps or thereabouts. Wired via an RCD and spliced into the
existing meter tails to the existing consumer unit. My thoughts are on
how great this mains pressure shower actually is.

Then the lights went out. Silence.

Great

Call for SWMBO. Nothing. She'd left the house to potter in the garden
shed. I'm wet, covered in soap suds, can't see a thing, where is the
blinkin torch...

Ah, the meter ain't displaying. We've blown the supplier main fuse. All
other fuses, trips and RCDs fine.

The guy from the emergency electrical service sorts it out, and we are
back on again. However, our supplier fuses are old - probably 50 or 60
years - and from his comments look to be wired with 30 amp fuse wire.
That said, the shower overload has taken out both the live and neutral
fuse wires. He whistles though his teeth, sez "neutral, that is weird"
and trundles off with a promise to be back tomorrow to uprate the fuses
to a more consumer friendly 100 amps.

I can't see anything strange in the neutral fuse expiring, it has been
on duty for ages - and the overload of our new shower has shown it the
cards. So why is this guy whistling through his teeth?

Is tomorrow going to be a likely sales opportunity for his company?


There shouldn't be a neutral fuse by the standards of the past mumble
decades, which is why he was surprised.

If it that ancient, they might well replace the cutout completely now or
real soon. At the very least, it's almost certain he'll replace the neutral
fuse with a solid link at least for now and replace the live fuse.

Another issue is what the cutout is actually rated at - you can't bung a
100A fuse in any ancient old crap. But a 60A supply fuse should cope OK with
a shower plus reasonable other loads unless you spend an hour in the shower
while running the leccy cooker and fan heaters flat out. As a very general
rule of thumb, a typical fuse in this class (and there are a few classes of
cutout fuse) will take around 30 mins to blow at double it's rated load, ie
120A for a 60A fuse so you can get away with a bit.


--
Tim Watts

Tim Watts wrote:
Adrian C wrote:

There I was tonight in this super newly installed electric shower
(oh, and gas - but that's for another tale) and using it for the
first time.
10.5kW, 44Amps or thereabouts. Wired via an RCD and spliced into the
existing meter tails to the existing consumer unit. My thoughts are
on how great this mains pressure shower actually is.

Then the lights went out. Silence.

Great

Call for SWMBO. Nothing. She'd left the house to potter in the garden
shed. I'm wet, covered in soap suds, can't see a thing, where is the
blinkin torch...

Ah, the meter ain't displaying. We've blown the supplier main fuse.
All other fuses, trips and RCDs fine.

The guy from the emergency electrical service sorts it out, and we
are back on again. However, our supplier fuses are old - probably 50
or 60 years - and from his comments look to be wired with 30 amp
fuse wire. That said, the shower overload has taken out both the
live and neutral fuse wires. He whistles though his teeth, sez
"neutral, that is weird" and trundles off with a promise to be back
tomorrow to uprate the fuses to a more consumer friendly 100 amps.

I can't see anything strange in the neutral fuse expiring, it has
been on duty for ages - and the overload of our new shower has shown
it the cards. So why is this guy whistling through his teeth?

Is tomorrow going to be a likely sales opportunity for his company?


There shouldn't be a neutral fuse by the standards of the past
mumble decades, which is why he was surprised.

If it that ancient, they might well replace the cutout completely now
or real soon. At the very least, it's almost certain he'll replace
the neutral fuse with a solid link at least for now and replace the
live fuse.

I suspect that is what will happen.

And no sales talk at all

--
Adam

On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 22:25:44 +0100, Adrian C
wrote:

There I was tonight in this super newly installed electric shower (oh,
and gas - but that's for another tale) and using it for the first time.
10.5kW, 44Amps or thereabouts. Wired via an RCD and spliced into the
existing meter tails to the existing consumer unit. My thoughts are on
how great this mains pressure shower actually is.

Then the lights went out. Silence.

Great

Call for SWMBO. Nothing. She'd left the house to potter in the garden
shed. I'm wet, covered in soap suds, can't see a thing, where is the
blinkin torch...

Ah, the meter ain't displaying. We've blown the supplier main fuse. All
other fuses, trips and RCDs fine.

The guy from the emergency electrical service sorts it out, and we are
back on again. However, our supplier fuses are old - probably 50 or 60
years - and from his comments look to be wired with 30 amp fuse wire.
That said, the shower overload has taken out both the live and neutral
fuse wires. He whistles though his teeth, sez "neutral, that is weird"
and trundles off with a promise to be back tomorrow to uprate the fuses
to a more consumer friendly 100 amps.

I can't see anything strange in the neutral fuse expiring, it has been
on duty for ages - and the overload of our new shower has shown it the
cards. So why is this guy whistling through his teeth?

Is tomorrow going to be a likely sales opportunity for his company?

I find the distribution people (the ones who actually install and
maintain the supply rather than the ones to whom you pay your bill)
(Mine's CE, formerly NEDL (nee NEEB)) are usually down-to-earth (no
pun intended) engineers rather than sales-orientated types.

Normally the neutral "fuse" nowadays is bypassed with a solid bar to
avoid the whole system becoming live if a neutral fuse should rupture
rather than the line one.

--
Frank Erskine
Sunderland

Normally the neutral "fuse" nowadays is bypassed with a solid bar to
avoid the whole system becoming live if a neutral fuse should rupture
rather than the line one.

I've not met a neutral "board" fuse, but I remember my Grandmother
had a metal-clad fuse-box with a fuse in the live and neutral of each circuit.

I think its installation had a lot to do with equipment shortages during the war.
Incidentally all the sockets were those Wylex ones with in-line pins.

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 22:25:44 +0100, Adrian C
wrote:

There I was tonight in this super newly installed electric shower (oh,
and gas - but that's for another tale) and using it for the first time.
10.5kW, 44Amps or thereabouts. Wired via an RCD and spliced into the
existing meter tails to the existing consumer unit. My thoughts are on
how great this mains pressure shower actually is.

Then the lights went out. Silence.

Great

Call for SWMBO. Nothing. She'd left the house to potter in the garden
shed. I'm wet, covered in soap suds, can't see a thing, where is the
blinkin torch...

Ah, the meter ain't displaying. We've blown the supplier main fuse. All
other fuses, trips and RCDs fine.

The guy from the emergency electrical service sorts it out, and we are
back on again. However, our supplier fuses are old - probably 50 or 60
years - and from his comments look to be wired with 30 amp fuse wire.
That said, the shower overload has taken out both the live and neutral
fuse wires. He whistles though his teeth, sez "neutral, that is weird"
and trundles off with a promise to be back tomorrow to uprate the fuses
to a more consumer friendly 100 amps.

I can't see anything strange in the neutral fuse expiring, it has been
on duty for ages - and the overload of our new shower has shown it the
cards. So why is this guy whistling through his teeth?

Is tomorrow going to be a likely sales opportunity for his company?

When I did something similar (worked on a socket while live to avoid
disturbing SWMBO while she was watching Tarnation Street) I didn't get
billed because the fuse was 60A in a 4 bed house.

Derek

On 31 Aug, 22:44, Tim Watts wrote:
Adrian C wrote:
There I was tonight in this super newly installed electric shower (oh,
and gas - but that's for another tale) and using it for the first time.
10.5kW, 44Amps or thereabouts. Wired via an RCD and spliced into the
existing meter tails to the existing consumer unit. My thoughts are on
how great this mains pressure shower actually is.

Then the lights went out. Silence.

Great

Call for SWMBO. Nothing. She'd left the house to potter in the garden
shed. I'm wet, covered in soap suds, can't see a thing, where is the
blinkin torch...

Ah, the meter ain't displaying. We've blown the supplier main fuse. All
other fuses, trips and RCDs fine.

The guy from the emergency electrical service sorts it out, and we are
back on again. However, our supplier fuses are old - probably 50 or 60
years - and from his comments look to be wired with 30 amp fuse wire.
That said, the shower overload has taken out both the live and neutral
fuse wires. He whistles though his teeth, sez "neutral, that is weird"
and trundles off with a promise to be back tomorrow to uprate the fuses
to a more consumer friendly 100 amps.

I can't see anything strange in the neutral fuse expiring, it has been
on duty for ages - and the overload of our new shower has shown it the
cards. So why is this guy whistling through his teeth?

Is tomorrow going to be a likely sales opportunity for his company?

There shouldn't be a neutral fuse by the standards of the past mumble
decades, which is why he was surprised.

If it that ancient, they might well replace the cutout completely now or
real soon. At the very least, it's almost certain he'll replace the neutral
fuse with a solid link at least for now and replace the live fuse.

Another issue is what the cutout is actually rated at - you can't bung a
100A fuse in any ancient old crap. But a 60A supply fuse should cope OK with
a shower plus reasonable other loads unless you spend an hour in the shower
while running the leccy cooker and fan heaters flat out. As a very general
rule of thumb, a typical fuse in this class (and there are a few classes of
cutout fuse) will take around 30 mins to blow at double it's rated load, ie
120A for a 60A fuse so you can get away with a bit.

--
Tim Watts- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think this post is a load of ********. There hasn't been fuses in
neutrals since the days of DC (ie 1930s). I used to work for the
electricity board. Someone would have removed equipment like that
when the meter/supply cable was replaced years ago. No electrician who
sees such a thing is going to fail to report it.

On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 22:25:44 +0100, Adrian C wrote:


The guy from the emergency electrical service sorts it out, and we are
back on again. However, our supplier fuses are old - probably 50 or 60
years - and from his comments look to be wired with 30 amp fuse wire.
That said, the shower overload has taken out both the live and neutral
fuse wires. He whistles though his teeth, sez "neutral, that is weird"
and trundles off with a promise to be back tomorrow to uprate the fuses
to a more consumer friendly 100 amps.

There was aprogramme within the Supply Industry to remove all rewireable
fuses back in the 1970's - 80's from memory. Needless to say not all were
replaced, although managers were declaring in returns that they were. The
replacement will be at their expense.







--
The Wanderer

The older I get the better I used to be!

harry wrote:

I think this post is a load of ********. There hasn't been fuses in
neutrals since the days of DC (ie 1930s). I used to work for the
electricity board. Someone would have removed equipment like that
when the meter/supply cable was replaced years ago. No electrician who
sees such a thing is going to fail to report it.

You sure about that?
--
Tim Watts

On 01/09/2010 07:17, harry wrote:

I think this post is a load of ********. There hasn't been fuses in
neutrals since the days of DC (ie 1930s). I used to work for the
electricity board. Someone would have removed equipment like that
when the meter/supply cable was replaced years ago. No electrician who
sees such a thing is going to fail to report it.

Well, this house was built in 1932, and rewired in 1970.

Fuses are dead centre of this pic - so these would have been 1930s DC fuses?

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/a...rthestairs.jpg

Not suprised, I have here this GPO relic my ADSL passes through ...

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/a...r/IMG_2832.jpg


Electicity company peeps due today, and for interest will be snapping
the replacements they fit.

--
Adrian C

On 1 Sep, 07:17, harry wrote:

I think this post is a load of ********. *There hasn't been fuses in
neutrals since the days of DC (ie 1930s). I used to work for the
electricity board. * Someone would have removed equipment like that
when the meter/supply cable was replaced years ago. No electrician who
sees such a thing is going to fail to report it.

Friend of mine moved house last year. Their 1920s house (in an area
that was one of the last DC supply areas in the country) still had two
fuses, and electrics to match. This wasn't even picked up on the
survey.

I have a neutral fuse here, although it's on a supply that was removed
in 2000. Some other equipment adjacent to it is '80s dated though, and
no-one thought to remove the neutral fuse at the time. I think it was
installed on a 1950s AC overhead supply.

If a neutral fuse fails, you're well rid of it.

On 31 Aug, 23:17, Frank Erskine wrote:

I find the distribution people (the ones who actually install and
maintain the supply rather than the ones to whom you pay your bill)
(Mine's CE, formerly NEDL (nee NEEB)) are usually down-to-earth (no
pun intended) engineers rather than sales-orientated types.

Amen to that! Western Power Distribution in my case.

I have a billing problem at present. "Good Energy" are trying to bill
me £1500, for £120 of electricity I've already paid for, through a
supply that has been disconnected for 10 years, when I'm not even a
Good Energy customer. The only people who've been at all helpful in
resolving this have been WPD, even though billing is the one part of
it that isn't even their problem.

Not suprised, I have here this GPO relic my ADSL passes through ...

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/a...r/IMG_2832.jpg

i got one of them too!

what does it do if anything? could *anyone* remove/replace with
something less obvious? if only BT is it a chargeable to get it
changed?

Jim K

Adrian C wrote:
On 01/09/2010 07:17, harry wrote:

I think this post is a load of ********. There hasn't been fuses in
neutrals since the days of DC (ie 1930s). I used to work for the
electricity board. Someone would have removed equipment like that
when the meter/supply cable was replaced years ago. No electrician who
sees such a thing is going to fail to report it.

Well, this house was built in 1932, and rewired in 1970.

Fuses are dead centre of this pic - so these would have been 1930s DC
fuses?

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/a...rthestairs.jpg


Cripes. That looks EXACTLY like my old house looked. Also rewired in the
70's. Badly.

"harry" wrote in message
...

I think this post is a load of ********. There hasn't been fuses in
neutrals since the days of DC (ie 1930s). I used to work for the
electricity board. Someone would have removed equipment like that
when the meter/supply cable was replaced years ago. No electrician who
sees such a thing is going to fail to report it.

I suspect there are still many neutral fuses left sitting undisturbed.
The ESQC Regulations 7(2) do require DNOs to remove them:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2...ulation/7/made
and the guidance says they must do it by 2013:
http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/w.../file26709.pdf
Regards
Bruce

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 1 Sep, 07:17, harry wrote:

I think this post is a load of ********. *There hasn't been fuses in
neutrals since the days of DC (ie 1930s). I used to work for the
electricity board. * Someone would have removed equipment like that
when the meter/supply cable was replaced years ago. No electrician who
sees such a thing is going to fail to report it.

Friend of mine moved house last year. Their 1920s house (in an area
that was one of the last DC supply areas in the country) still had two
fuses, and electrics to match. This wasn't even picked up on the
survey.

I have a neutral fuse here, although it's on a supply that was removed
in 2000. Some other equipment adjacent to it is '80s dated though, and
no-one thought to remove the neutral fuse at the time. I think it was
installed on a 1950s AC overhead supply.

If a neutral fuse fails, you're well rid of it.

Interestingly, in large parts of continental Europe, it is standard to
have both live and neutral fuses, and there is no discrimination at
the sockets between live and neutral, together with random variation
from socket to socket as to whether it offers an earth. From my trips
to Norway, I have looked at their standard domestic electrical setup
and shuddered. Cartridge fuses in both live and neutral at the
consumer unit, unshuttered sockets with mixed live and neutral - and
two pin plugs that can be inserted either way round. And they wonder
why they have so many electrically-caused house fires.

Oh, and ring circuits are unheard of.

Sid

On 1 Sep, 11:45, Sidney Endon-Lee wrote:

Interestingly, in large parts of continental Europe, it is standard to
have both live and neutral fuses,

If you've already taken the route of two-pin connections and relying
on insulation more than an earthed case, then there's less need to
avoid the fused neutral. You have however lost the benefits of metal
cases being earthed, for protection against internal shorts to that
case.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 1 Sep, 11:45, Sidney Endon-Lee wrote:

Interestingly, in large parts of continental Europe, it is standard to
have both live and neutral fuses,

If you've already taken the route of two-pin connections and relying
on insulation more than an earthed case, then there's less need to
avoid the fused neutral. You have however lost the benefits of metal
cases being earthed, for protection against internal shorts to that
case.

Thinking back to my pole mounted transformer, which I think had a
neutral fuse, its actually not really clear which is live and which is
neutral.

You CREATED a neutral by driving a stake into the ground, and connecting
one side of the supply to it. I am not sure which side of the fuse that was.


I can envisage a situation where someone shorts the live side to earth
upstream of the fuse..then maybe a neutral side fuse makes sense.

Anyway, glad its all gone now.

On Wed, 01 Sep 2010 03:45:06 -0700, Sidney Endon-Lee wrote:
Interestingly, in large parts of continental Europe, it is standard to
have both live and neutral fuses, and there is no discrimination at the
sockets between live and neutral, together with random variation from
socket to socket as to whether it offers an earth. From my trips to
Norway, I have looked at their standard domestic electrical setup and
shuddered. Cartridge fuses in both live and neutral at the consumer
unit, unshuttered sockets with mixed live and neutral - and two pin
plugs that can be inserted either way round. And they wonder why they
have so many electrically-caused house fires.

Oh, and ring circuits are unheard of.

That sounds like my setup here in the US... two modern breaker panels,
load control relays, four ancient fuse boxes (mixture of barrel and screw-
in fuses), a big knife switch for the well pump, a plethora of wall
socket types (some grounded, some not), and a mixture of modern wire and
old cloth-covered stuff. Most of it's 110V, some of it's 220.

cheers

Jules

On Wed, 1 Sep 2010 02:24:19 -0700 (PDT), Jim K
wrote:


Not suprised, I have here this GPO relic my ADSL passes through ...

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/a...r/IMG_2832.jpg

i got one of them too!

what does it do if anything? could *anyone* remove/replace with
something less obvious? if only BT is it a chargeable to get it
changed?

As it stands it's only a fuseholder. The carbon surge protectors will
have been removed - their capacitance would be far too great for ADSL.

Fuses are no longer fitted at subscribers' premises (with perhaps a
very few exceptions) so it could be replaced by a standard Block
Terminal.

Normally the master socket (NTE5) is fitted at this point so that all
the subsequent internal wiring is the responsibility of the
subscriber!

--
Frank Erskine

On 1 Sep, 10:24, Jim K wrote:
Not suprised, I have here this GPO relic my ADSL passes through ...

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/a...r/IMG_2832.jpg

i got one of them too!

what does it do if anything? could *anyone* remove/replace with
something less obvious? if only BT is it a chargeable to get it
changed?

Jim K

I guess it is at the junction of where the external wire enters your
property and picks up the internal cable. It is a junction/protection
box which often had dummy fuses if fed from an underground cable. Only
BT Openreach can officially remove it, but assuming it feeds a
standard BT Master Socket, which includes protection, you could bypass
it with a modern box like this one http://www.run-it-direct.co.uk/BT77B.html
and I doubt anybody would find out. There are only two wires in and
two wires out.

John

On Tue, 31 Aug 2010 23:17:58 -0700 (PDT), harry wrote:

On 31 Aug, 22:44, Tim Watts wrote:
Adrian C wrote:
There I was tonight in this super newly installed electric shower (oh,
and gas - but that's for another tale) and using it for the first time.
10.5kW, 44Amps or thereabouts. Wired via an RCD and spliced into the
existing meter tails to the existing consumer unit. My thoughts are on
how great this mains pressure shower actually is.

Then the lights went out. Silence.

Great

Call for SWMBO. Nothing. She'd left the house to potter in the garden
shed. I'm wet, covered in soap suds, can't see a thing, where is the
blinkin torch...

Ah, the meter ain't displaying. We've blown the supplier main fuse. All
other fuses, trips and RCDs fine.

The guy from the emergency electrical service sorts it out, and we are
back on again. However, our supplier fuses are old - probably 50 or 60
years - and from his comments look to be wired with 30 amp fuse wire.
That said, the shower overload has taken out both the live and neutral
fuse wires. He whistles though his teeth, sez "neutral, that is weird"
and trundles off with a promise to be back tomorrow to uprate the fuses
to a more consumer friendly 100 amps.

I can't see anything strange in the neutral fuse expiring, it has been
on duty for ages - and the overload of our new shower has shown it the
cards. So why is this guy whistling through his teeth?

Is tomorrow going to be a likely sales opportunity for his company?

There shouldn't be a neutral fuse by the standards of the past mumble
decades, which is why he was surprised.

If it that ancient, they might well replace the cutout completely now or
real soon. At the very least, it's almost certain he'll replace the neutral
fuse with a solid link at least for now and replace the live fuse.

Another issue is what the cutout is actually rated at - you can't bung a
100A fuse in any ancient old crap. But a 60A supply fuse should cope OK with
a shower plus reasonable other loads unless you spend an hour in the shower
while running the leccy cooker and fan heaters flat out. As a very general
rule of thumb, a typical fuse in this class (and there are a few classes of
cutout fuse) will take around 30 mins to blow at double it's rated load, ie
120A for a 60A fuse so you can get away with a bit.

--
Tim Watts- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I think this post is a load of ********. There hasn't been fuses in
neutrals since the days of DC (ie 1930s).

Oh, I'm afraid there have, and still are. They should have gone long since,
but there are still lots around.

I used to work for the
electricity board.

So did I.

Someone would have removed equipment like that
when the meter/supply cable was replaced years ago. No electrician who
sees such a thing is going to fail to report it.

You'd think so.


--
The Wanderer

The future isn't what it used to be.

On Wed, 01 Sep 2010 14:08:17 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Andy Dingley wrote:
On 1 Sep, 11:45, Sidney Endon-Lee wrote:

Interestingly, in large parts of continental Europe, it is standard to
have both live and neutral fuses,

If you've already taken the route of two-pin connections and relying
on insulation more than an earthed case, then there's less need to
avoid the fused neutral. You have however lost the benefits of metal
cases being earthed, for protection against internal shorts to that
case.

Thinking back to my pole mounted transformer, which I think had a
neutral fuse,

Nope, never.

its actually not really clear which is live and which is
neutral.

Depends whether it's a two wire, split phase, or three phase transformer.

You CREATED a neutral by driving a stake into the ground, and connecting
one side of the supply to it. I am not sure which side of the fuse that was.

Rubbish. Consumer earth rods have nothing to do with earthing the incoming
supply neutral.

The supply company *always* earthed their system to create a neutral. That
went back as far as the 1922 Electricity Supply Regulations, now superceded
by the Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002. Oh, and
that goes for hv and ehv systems as well.

I can envisage a situation where someone shorts the live side to earth
upstream of the fuse..then maybe a neutral side fuse makes sense.

Unfortunately what you envisage makes no sense, given that the neutral must
always remain intact since the introduction of PME. Neutral Inversion,
OTOH, can be a problem, particularly in rural areas, but that requires two
or three things to have gone wrong, both with a customer's installation and
the supply network.

Please don't try spouting on matters about which you have not the first
idea.


--
The Wanderer

Life is a catastrophic success.

On 1 Sep, 11:45, Sidney Endon-Lee wrote:
Andy Dingley wrote:
On 1 Sep, 07:17, harry wrote:

I think this post is a load of ********. *There hasn't been fuses in
neutrals since the days of DC (ie 1930s). I used to work for the
electricity board. * Someone would have removed equipment like that
when the meter/supply cable was replaced years ago. No electrician who
sees such a thing is going to fail to report it.

Friend of mine moved house last year. Their 1920s house (in an area
that was one of the last DC supply areas in the country) still had two
fuses, and electrics to match. This wasn't even picked up on the
survey.

I have a neutral fuse here, although it's on a supply that was removed
in 2000. Some other equipment adjacent to it is '80s dated though, and
no-one thought to remove the neutral fuse at the time. I think it was
installed on a 1950s AC overhead supply.

If a neutral fuse fails, you're well rid of it.

Interestingly, in large parts of continental Europe, it is standard to
have both live and neutral fuses, and there is no discrimination at
the sockets between live and neutral, together with random variation
from socket to socket as to whether it offers an earth. From my trips
to Norway, I have looked at their standard domestic electrical setup
and shuddered. Cartridge fuses in both live and neutral at the
consumer unit, unshuttered sockets with mixed live and neutral - and
two pin plugs that can be inserted either way round. And they wonder
why they have so many electrically-caused house fires.

Maybe it's the same reason so many fires are blamed on "electrical
faults" here...

I have read that Norway uses 230v three-phase supplies, with no
neutral, so single-phase appliances are connected between two phases,
therefore both wires are live.

Oh, and ring circuits are unheard of.

Ring circuits and fused plugs were introduced in the UK to save copper
etc. in the post-WW2 rebuilding programme, they have a number of
disadvantages.


Sid

On 1 Sep, 13:56, Andy Dingley wrote:
On 1 Sep, 11:45, Sidney Endon-Lee wrote:

Interestingly, in large parts of continental Europe, it is standard to
have both live and neutral fuses,

If you've already taken the route of two-pin connections and relying
on insulation more than an earthed case, then there's less need to
avoid the fused neutral. You have however lost the benefits of metal
cases being earthed, for protection against internal shorts to that
case.

This is 'Class 0' protection, which has not been permitted in the UK
for many years, and is now on the way out on the Continent, it relies
on there being no extraneous conductive parts and an insulating floor
to limit shock current, even there it was prohibited in conductive
locations such as concrete floors, kitchens, bathrooms, cellars etc.

On 1 Sep, 09:44, Adrian C wrote:
On 01/09/2010 07:17, harry wrote:



I think this post is a load of ********. *There hasn't been fuses in
neutrals since the days of DC (ie 1930s). I used to work for the
electricity board. * Someone would have removed equipment like that
when the meter/supply cable was replaced years ago. No electrician who
sees such a thing is going to fail to report it.

Well, this house was built in 1932, and rewired in 1970.

Fuses are dead centre of this pic - so these would have been 1930s DC fuses?

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/a...rthestairs.jpg

Not suprised, I have here this GPO relic my ADSL passes through ...

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/a...r/IMG_2832.jpg

Electicity company peeps due today, and for interest will be snapping
the replacements they fit.

--
Adrian C

That is 1930's gear. They must be damned ingompetent to leave such
stuff about. The last time saw equipment like that was in the early
60's and that was overlooked from 30 years before that. I wonder who
fitted that new meter? The incoming cable looks fairly dodgy too.

On 1 Sep, 21:28, "alexander.keys1" wrote:
On 1 Sep, 11:45, Sidney Endon-Lee wrote:



Andy Dingley wrote:
On 1 Sep, 07:17, harry wrote:

I think this post is a load of ********. *There hasn't been fuses in
neutrals since the days of DC (ie 1930s). I used to work for the
electricity board. * Someone would have removed equipment like that
when the meter/supply cable was replaced years ago. No electrician who
sees such a thing is going to fail to report it.

Friend of mine moved house last year. Their 1920s house (in an area
that was one of the last DC supply areas in the country) still had two
fuses, and electrics to match. This wasn't even picked up on the
survey.

I have a neutral fuse here, although it's on a supply that was removed
in 2000. Some other equipment adjacent to it is '80s dated though, and
no-one thought to remove the neutral fuse at the time. I think it was
installed on a 1950s AC overhead supply.

If a neutral fuse fails, you're well rid of it.

Interestingly, in large parts of continental Europe, it is standard to
have both live and neutral fuses, and there is no discrimination at
the sockets between live and neutral, together with random variation
from socket to socket as to whether it offers an earth. From my trips
to Norway, I have looked at their standard domestic electrical setup
and shuddered. Cartridge fuses in both live and neutral at the
consumer unit, unshuttered sockets with mixed live and neutral - and
two pin plugs that can be inserted either way round. And they wonder
why they have so many electrically-caused house fires.

Maybe it's the same reason so many fires are blamed on "electrical
faults" here...

I have read that Norway uses 230v three-phase supplies, with no
neutral, so single-phase appliances are connected between two phases,
therefore both wires are live.

Oh, and ring circuits are unheard of.

Ring circuits and fused plugs were introduced in the UK to save copper
etc. in the post-WW2 rebuilding programme, they have a number of
disadvantages.





Sid- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Which are?

On 1 Sep, 21:28, "alexander.keys1" wrote:
On 1 Sep, 11:45, Sidney Endon-Lee wrote:



Andy Dingley wrote:
On 1 Sep, 07:17, harry wrote:

I think this post is a load of ********. *There hasn't been fuses in
neutrals since the days of DC (ie 1930s). I used to work for the
electricity board. * Someone would have removed equipment like that
when the meter/supply cable was replaced years ago. No electrician who
sees such a thing is going to fail to report it.

Friend of mine moved house last year. Their 1920s house (in an area
that was one of the last DC supply areas in the country) still had two
fuses, and electrics to match. This wasn't even picked up on the
survey.

I have a neutral fuse here, although it's on a supply that was removed
in 2000. Some other equipment adjacent to it is '80s dated though, and
no-one thought to remove the neutral fuse at the time. I think it was
installed on a 1950s AC overhead supply.

If a neutral fuse fails, you're well rid of it.

Interestingly, in large parts of continental Europe, it is standard to
have both live and neutral fuses, and there is no discrimination at
the sockets between live and neutral, together with random variation
from socket to socket as to whether it offers an earth. From my trips
to Norway, I have looked at their standard domestic electrical setup
and shuddered. Cartridge fuses in both live and neutral at the
consumer unit, unshuttered sockets with mixed live and neutral - and
two pin plugs that can be inserted either way round. And they wonder
why they have so many electrically-caused house fires.

Maybe it's the same reason so many fires are blamed on "electrical
faults" here...

I have read that Norway uses 230v three-phase supplies, with no
neutral, so single-phase appliances are connected between two phases,
therefore both wires are live.

Oh, and ring circuits are unheard of.

Ring circuits and fused plugs were introduced in the UK to save copper
etc. in the post-WW2 rebuilding programme, they have a number of
disadvantages.





Sid- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

In days of yore in the UK there were three wire DC sytems that were
120/240 volt. There were two fuses on these sytems Most supplied from
local mines and factories, ie not part of a national grid. The
wealthy had their own supply run from gas engines or similar.

On 1 Sep, 22:09, harry wrote:
On 1 Sep, 09:44, Adrian C wrote:





On 01/09/2010 07:17, harry wrote:

I think this post is a load of ********. *There hasn't been fuses in
neutrals since the days of DC (ie 1930s). I used to work for the
electricity board. * Someone would have removed equipment like that
when the meter/supply cable was replaced years ago. No electrician who
sees such a thing is going to fail to report it.

Well, this house was built in 1932, and rewired in 1970.

Fuses are dead centre of this pic - so these would have been 1930s DC fuses?

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/a...rthestairs.jpg

Not suprised, I have here this GPO relic my ADSL passes through ...

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/a...r/IMG_2832.jpg

Electicity company peeps due today, and for interest will be snapping
the replacements they fit.

--
Adrian C

That is 1930's gear. *They must be damned ingompetent to leave such
stuff about. *The last time *saw equipment like that was in the early
60's and that was overlooked from 30 years before that. *I wonder who
fitted that new meter? *The incoming cable looks fairly dodgy too.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Sometimes there were AC sytems where there was a centre tap to the
transformer winding so both poles were live to earth, ergo both poles
were fused. There was no neutral. Similar to 110volt tool
transformers today.

On Wed, 1 Sep 2010 13:28:47 -0700 (PDT), "alexander.keys1"
wrote:


Ring circuits and fused plugs were introduced in the UK to save copper
etc. in the post-WW2 rebuilding programme, they have a number of
disadvantages.

Probably the biggest disadvantage of early ring circuits was that a
lot of leccies didn't really understand them, and took each end of the
ring to a separate fuse. If one fuse blew for any reason the whole
(non) ring was then fed from one fuse, albeit probably only 15A
(unless they'd doubled the 15A fuse wire in the carrier).

--
Frank Erskine

On 1 Sep,
harry wrote:

I think this post is a load of ********. There hasn't been fuses in
neutrals since the days of DC (ie 1930s). I used to work for the
electricity board. Someone would have removed equipment like that
when the meter/supply cable was replaced years ago. No electrician who
sees such a thing is going to fail to report it.

Extra sockets 15A and 5A) were fitted to my parent's house in 1957. A new
fuse box was installed with double pole fusing, and TRS cable. This was
installed by NEEB.

It was replaced with SP fusing, PVC cable and 13A sockets in the mid 60s.

--
B Thumbs
Change lycos to yahoo to reply

"harry" wrote in message
...
On 1 Sep, 21:28, "alexander.keys1"
wrote:

snip
: Ring circuits and fused plugs were introduced in the UK
: to save copper etc. in the post-WW2 rebuilding programme,
: they have a number of disadvantages.

: Which are?

I take it that you have never come across the bolt being used as
a 'fusible' link within the a Bullshi... sorry BS1363 plug that
is feeding a device that draws 3amp via a similar rated length
of flex.

I take it that you have never come across the situation were an
faulty appliance fails to blow the fusible wire within the
Bull****... sorry BS1363 plug but trips out the much more
sensitive CB on the panel, taking out all other devices connected
to that circuit (which in a house can be the entire power
circuit.

The ONLY two advantage of ring circuits is installation cost and
smaller size of fuse/CB panel.
--
Regards, Jerry.

Jerry wrote:
"harry" wrote in message
...
On 1 Sep, 21:28, "alexander.keys1"
wrote:

snip
: Ring circuits and fused plugs were introduced in the UK
: to save copper etc. in the post-WW2 rebuilding programme,
: they have a number of disadvantages.

: Which are?

I take it that you have never come across the bolt being used as
a 'fusible' link within the a Bullshi... sorry BS1363 plug that
is feeding a device that draws 3amp via a similar rated length
of flex.

I take it that you have never come across the situation were an
faulty appliance fails to blow the fusible wire within the
Bull****... sorry BS1363 plug but trips out the much more
sensitive CB on the panel, taking out all other devices connected
to that circuit (which in a house can be the entire power
circuit.

The ONLY two advantage of ring circuits is installation cost and
smaller size of fuse/CB panel.
--
Regards, Jerry.

Jerry,

I am happy for you that you are so certain. I suggest you practise
'thinking around the problem' a little more, and also clarifying your
thinking. There are benefits and disadvantages to ring and spur
circuits; and benefits and disadvantages to fuses and circuit
breakers; and benefits and disadvantages to having fuses in plug-tops
or at the consumer unit. Different choices will be better in different
situations, and it is well worth understanding that. It is not the
case that one method is unambiguously better than all the others in
all situations.

To give an example: generally, domestic lighting circuits are not ring
circuits, even though the circuit serving sockets frequently is. You
might like to reflect on why that is. You may also like to reflect on
why it is not uncommon for kitchens to have a ring circuit separate
from the other circuits in a dwelling; and why immersion heaters are
usually put on their own spur. And to start things off, what do you
think the function of a plug-top fuse is?

Regards,

SId

On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 09:14:39 +0100, Jerry wrote:

I take it that you have never come across the bolt being used as
a 'fusible' link within the a Bullshi... sorry BS1363 plug that is
feeding a device that draws 3amp via a similar rated length of flex.

And this never happens with other fuses? Of course it does. Anyway, it's
quite hard to use abol;t with many modern moulded plugs.

And no, I haven't come across it. Anyone who does that has probably done
lots of other dangerous things too.

I take it that you have never come across the situation were an faulty
appliance fails to blow the fusible wire within the Bull****... sorry
BS1363 plug but trips out the much more sensitive CB on the panel,
taking out all other devices connected to that circuit (which in a house
can be the entire power circuit.

Pretty badly designed if it's the ONLY power circuit - our house has five
rings.

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
: On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 09:14:39 +0100, Jerry wrote:
:
: I take it that you have never come across the bolt being used
as
: a 'fusible' link within the a Bullshi... sorry BS1363 plug
that is
: feeding a device that draws 3amp via a similar rated length
of flex.
:
: And this never happens with other fuses? Of course it does.
Anyway, it's
: quite hard to use abol;t with many modern moulded plugs.

********, it only need metal the same dia of the BS fuse, rather
than having to dismantle a distribution board, take out a CB and
replace even with a higher rated unit never mind a solid bridge.

:
: And no, I haven't come across it. Anyone who does that has
probably done
: lots of other dangerous things too.

Your point being what, exactly?...

:
: I take it that you have never come across the situation were
an faulty
: appliance fails to blow the fusible wire within the
Bull****... sorry
: BS1363 plug but trips out the much more sensitive CB on the
panel,
: taking out all other devices connected to that circuit (which
in a house
: can be the entire power circuit.
:
: Pretty badly designed if it's the ONLY power circuit - our
house has five
: rings.
:

Only if you are being a pedantic fool and taking the meaning of
the word "House" to me a multi floor dwelling rather than the
more usual generic meaning of the word as a place were people
live. Anyway, even if there was multiple ring circuits one faulty
device will still take out all devices being powered from that
circuit rather than just the one or two that would be on a radial
circuit.
--
Regards, Jerry.

alexander.keys1 wrote:

I have read that Norway uses 230v three-phase supplies, with no
neutral, so single-phase appliances are connected between two phases,
therefore both wires are live.

I was sufficiently intrigued to look that up, and you are completely
correct - that standard domestic supply in Norway is IT, so the
voltage from phase to neutral is about 133 V , and the voltage between
phases is 230V. However, all new systems are now required to be TN.

I don't know if there are any standards in Norway for the phase to
ground/earth voltage i.e. by how much neutral can float.

I guess that means all appliance and light switches need to be dual
pole. It's a very different system to the UK.

"Sidney Endon-Lee" wrote in message
...
:
:
: Jerry wrote:
: "harry" wrote in message
:
...
: On 1 Sep, 21:28, "alexander.keys1"

: wrote:
:
: snip
: : Ring circuits and fused plugs were introduced in the UK
: : to save copper etc. in the post-WW2 rebuilding programme,
: : they have a number of disadvantages.
:
: : Which are?
:
: I take it that you have never come across the bolt being used
as
: a 'fusible' link within the a Bullshi... sorry BS1363 plug
that
: is feeding a device that draws 3amp via a similar rated
length
: of flex.
:
: I take it that you have never come across the situation were
an
: faulty appliance fails to blow the fusible wire within the
: Bull****... sorry BS1363 plug but trips out the much more
: sensitive CB on the panel, taking out all other devices
connected
: to that circuit (which in a house can be the entire power
: circuit.
:
: The ONLY two advantage of ring circuits is installation cost
and
: smaller size of fuse/CB panel.
: --
: Regards, Jerry.
:
: Jerry,
:
: I am happy for you that you are so certain. I suggest you
practise
: 'thinking around the problem' a little more,

Who says I have not 'though through these problems', perhaps that
IS why I have come to the conclusions I have...

and also clarifying your
: thinking. There are benefits and disadvantages to ring and spur
: circuits;

Err, spur circuits are supplied from ring circuits, thus they are
one and the same, duh!

and benefits and disadvantages to fuses and circuit
: breakers; and benefits and disadvantages to having fuses in
plug-tops
: or at the consumer unit. Different choices will be better in
different
: situations, and it is well worth understanding that. It is not
the
: case that one method is unambiguously better than all the
others in
: all situations.
:
: To give an example: generally, domestic lighting circuits are
not ring
: circuits, even though the circuit serving sockets frequently
is.

Most of the domestic lighting circuits I've ever come across of
based on looping in and out of ceiling (rose) fittings, thus one
faulty fitting will trip all the lights on that circuit, hence
why there will/should always be two lighting circuits (one
usually for stair-well lighting) protected independently of each
other BECAUSE the design failings of loop-in, loop-out circuits
are recognised and accepted - one out, all out, so to speak!...

You
: might like to reflect on why that is. You may also like to
reflect on
: why it is not uncommon for kitchens to have a ring circuit
separate
: from the other circuits in a dwelling; and why immersion
heaters are
: usually put on their own spur. And to start things off, what do
you
: think the function of a plug-top fuse is?
:

Perhaps you should do the reflecting, WHY is it usual to install
such circuits, perhaps if you actually thought through the actual
issues then you would realise that you have made a very good
argument against ring circuits!
--
Regards, Jerry.

On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 10:33:19 +0100, Jerry wrote:

taking out all other devices connected to that circuit (which
in a house
: can be the entire power circuit.
:
: Pretty badly designed if it's the ONLY power circuit - our house has
five
: rings.
:

Only if you are being a pedantic fool and taking the meaning of the word
"House" to me a multi floor dwelling rather than the more usual generic
meaning of the word as a place were people live. Anyway, even if there
was multiple ring circuits one faulty device will still take out all
devices being powered from that circuit rather than just the one or two
that would be on a radial circuit.

No pedantry - you don't seem to understand at all.

Never mind - it'll ne OK when you finish Key Stage 2.
--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

"Bob Eager" wrote in message
...
: On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 10:33:19 +0100, Jerry wrote:
:
: taking out all other devices connected to that circuit
(which
: in a house
: : can be the entire power circuit.
: :
: : Pretty badly designed if it's the ONLY power circuit - our
house has
: five
: : rings.
: :
:
: Only if you are being a pedantic fool and taking the meaning
of the word
: "House" to me a multi floor dwelling rather than the more
usual generic
: meaning of the word as a place were people live. Anyway, even
if there
: was multiple ring circuits one faulty device will still take
out all
: devices being powered from that circuit rather than just the
one or two
: that would be on a radial circuit.
:
: No pedantry - you don't seem to understand at all.

Whhhoooossshhhh, unless you are makintg a very good case for
radial circuits in small houses, flats and bungellows!

:
: Never mind - it'll ne OK when you finish Key Stage 2.

Just because you are still at Key Stage 1, repeating,
unquestioned, all your are being told parrot fashion, you think
everyone else is...
--
Regards, Jerry.