On 04/09/2010 11:21, Andy Burns wrote:
Adrian C wrote:

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/ac327/turnstyler/newunderthestairs.jpg


I asked whether they could fit me an isolating
switch past the meter but was told they stopped doing that favour for
customers 5 years ago.

You(?) managed to insert the Henley blocks between meter and CUs, so why
not precede those with your own isolator?


Nah, I was (Adam's correct) after the freebie. In particular, one of
these that does not need a bulky enclosure :-)

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/WYREC2S.html

Also the Henleys were put in during the visit by the electrican to
connect up the shower RCD gubbins. Him with the magic VDE screwdriver.

I was (usefully) away working during the time of this so couldn't advise
on a neater arrangement - or the installation of another MK 100A switch
which I'd already bought (couldn't get the WYREC2S locally) and he
didn't use.

SWMBO has calmed down and is enjoying her shower. Think I'll leave the
electrics well alone for a bit ;-)

--
Adrian C

On 03/09/2010 20:45, John Rumm wrote:
On 03/09/2010 20:20, Owain wrote:

I can't see how the cable shield turns into an earth - does it join to
the rather anorexic single green?

Zooming in a bit I can see what looks like a silver braided conducto
that emerges from the thinner black part of the incomer - about level
with the white T&E passing diagonally behind it. What I can't see is
where it then goes - it loops behind the incomer, but is then obscured
by the anaconda on the gas supply. (Be interesting if after all they
they forgot to connect it to anything!)



It's connected to one of the thicker green/yellow earths via a floating
terminal block.

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/a...r/IMG_3473.jpg

The skinny lone green wire bunched with it connects to the gas pipework.

--
Adrian c

Adrian C wrote:
On 03/09/2010 20:45, John Rumm wrote:
On 03/09/2010 20:20, Owain wrote:

I can't see how the cable shield turns into an earth - does it join
to the rather anorexic single green?

Zooming in a bit I can see what looks like a silver braided conducto
that emerges from the thinner black part of the incomer - about level
with the white T&E passing diagonally behind it. What I can't see is
where it then goes - it loops behind the incomer, but is then
obscured by the anaconda on the gas supply. (Be interesting if after
all they they forgot to connect it to anything!)



It's connected to one of the thicker green/yellow earths via a
floating terminal block.

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/a...r/IMG_3473.jpg

The skinny lone green wire bunched with it connects to the gas
pipework.


The floating terminal box is just visible on your first photo (behind the
25mm live tail).

http://i912.photobucket.com/albums/a...rthestairs.jpg

I am surprised that they did not fit another Henley block and take the
braiding to that.


--
Adam

Man at B&Q wrote:
On Sep 2, 8:48 pm, "Jerry" wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message

...
: On 02/09/2010 10:33, Jerry wrote:
:
: Only if you are being a pedantic fool and taking the meaning
of
: the word "House" to me a multi floor dwelling rather than the
: more usual generic meaning of the word as a place were people
: live. Anyway, even if there was multiple ring circuits one
faulty
: device will still take out all devices being powered from
that
: circuit rather than just the one or two that would be on a
radial
: circuit.
:
: Although I suspect that Jerry has not realised it, his beef
seems to be
: with fused plugs, since he has actually highlighted nothing of
relevance
: to circuit topology.

Yes, and I have said that both radial and ring circuits have both
advantages and disadvantages.

Plug fuses can be abused (as can rewireable fuses
: in consumer units), however in reality this much less of a
problem that
: might be imagined.

But we are talking about (theoretical) risks, allowing the
ignorant to defeat final protection with not much more than a
kitchen or pen knife and thus compete for a "Darwin Award" has a
very much higher risk factor than many of the risk that the regs
are obsessed with now!

Fine.

The regs, if followed, will protect everyone from bad installation.
They might not, and should not attempt to IMHO, protect you from
yourself.

MBQ

The regs are (fundamentally) there to protect you from dying in a fire
caused by faulty or overloaded fixed wiring.

Brian D wrote:
On 2 Sep,
"Jerry" wrote:

Anyway, even if there was multiple ring circuits one faulty
device will still take out all devices being powered from that
circuit rather than just the one or two that would be on a radial
circuit.

One faulty device will just take out the fuse in the plug top.


If you wire a plug up with the neutral and earth reversed, it will take
out the RCD supplying that circuit, which in turn will take out every
other circuit supplied by that RCD. The fuse in the plug will remain intact.

Frank Erskine wrote:
On Thu, 2 Sep 2010 20:48:30 +0100, "Jerry"
wrote:


Not so sure, whilst many appliances are sold all over the world,
since the UK law has required the pre-fitment of BS1363 plugs
complete with the correctly rated BS fuse many appliances now
come with power leads not only with moulded on plugs but the lead
rated to the fitted fuse IYSWIM.

This pre-fitment of BS1363 plugs only applies to "domestic"
appliances. I've bought a number of theatre 'luminaires' (lamps!)
without plugs on the end of their flex.

Actually the use of BS1363 plugs for such lamps isn't a very good idea
at all. They're normally connected to a radial circuit from a dimmer
pack which has fast-acting fuses to protect the triac dimmers. If a
plug-top fuse was to operate for any reason it would be a major
inconvenience to move an audience out of the way to get a step-ladder
into place to change a rogue fuse in the middle of a play.

Surprisingly many of these lamps are connected via good old-fashioned
15A or even 5A 'round-pin' BS plugs/sockets :-)


Well, this is something of a spurious argument Frank. Fuses generally
only fail if the lamp blows and lamps usually blow when you first switch
them on from cold or if you give them a good knock when they're hot.

Lamps rarely blow in the middle of a show and you wouldn't stop the show
to change a lamp, so whether or not the plug top is fused is beside the
point.

The reason theatres have 15A BS546 plugs and sockets is because they
pre-date BS1362 plugs and sockets and, as there was and is no
safety-related need to implement fused plugs, they never have been
implemented.

"harry" wrote in message
...
: On 2 Sep, 19:18, "Jerry"
wrote:
: "The Natural Philosopher" wrote in
...: Jerry wrote:
:
: : "Bob Eager" wrote in message
: : ...
:
: snip
: : :
: : : Never mind - it'll ne OK when you finish Key Stage 2.
: :
: : Just because you are still at Key Stage 1, repeating,
: : unquestioned, all your are being told parrot fashion, you
: think
: : everyone else is...
: :
: : just because you have fished stage 2, don't assume that
those
: of us with
: : degrees in electrical engineering and a lifetime of dealing
: with
: : electrical circuits haven't thought about it just as much
as
: you have,
: : and don't need to be patronised.
: :
:
: Just because you have learn to act like parrots, repeating
: ad-nausea what your owners tell you, rather than use your
brain
: cells... It was people like you who held industrial
: manufacturing/development in the UK back for so long,
allowing
: others to have the blue "skies thinking" that turned much of
the
: UK Plc into not much more than assembly lines at best and
: importing/warehousing agents at worst.
: --
: Regards, Jerry.
:
: 99% of major innovation has come from the UK (or Germany) The
Yanks
: invented nothing new.

Very little is "new", hence the saying "What goes around comes
around", what makes (or looses) money is how it is done.

: I have walked round construction sites in America. It's like
going
: back to the 1920s. And the standard of work was total crap.

Indeed, and I have lived in modern UK built dwellings were one
faulty appliance trips out the whole frecking power for the
dwelling! I've also lived in (then, un-modernised) pre-war
dwellings that were better built than their modern equivalent.
Put it this way, the serious operational failings found with ring
circuits almost certainly stops them being used on safety
critical circuits. The problem with North American electrical
instilations is not the circuit diagrams/layouts but the quality
of the materials used.

: Your wiring systems date from the early 20th century. Your
plumbing/
: heating systems are even worse.

Talking about yourself, you most certainly are not talking about
myself...
--
Regards, Jerry.

"harry" wrote in message
...

snip
: Have you ever been here?

Fortunately not, unlike you I don't need to be a pizzle, living
in Neverland, with a "Nanny-on-line" (aka AOL) ISP account and be
a Google groupie...

Try actually using your brain cells Harry, your arguments against
radial circuits seem to be simply built on what 70 years of
urban-myth and crap materials found in North America.
--
Regards, Jerry.

"Man at B&Q" wrote in message
...

snip

: The regs, if followed, will protect everyone from bad
: installation. They might not, and should not attempt
: to IMHO, protect you from yourself.

No, surely the regs should protect *everyone" from either bad
instillation OR from what others have done (try reading the first
rule in the H&S regs, or are you suggesting that H&S rags should
be scrapped...), and as there is nothing dangerous about radial
circuits or their installation - if they were they would be
outlawed by the regs, which they are not...
--
Regards, Jerry.

"Man at B&Q" wrote in message
...

snip

: I can think of numerous devices that come with various
: gizmos to adapt them to a number of plug styles, rather
: than pre-fitted or moulded-on BS plugs.

Yes, some products do come with a (typically) moulded on
euro-plug plus a BS1363 adapter plug, the point being is that
these adapters do not require the plug to be 'wired' [1], the
europlug simply plugs into the adapter.

[1] to stop people from miss-connecting, for example, connecting
the either wire to the neutral and neutral to the earth.
--
Regards, Jerry.

"Man at B&Q" wrote in message
...

snip

: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

: No one in this thread is claiming that abusing
: the system is any safer, only that the incidence
: of such behaviour leading to a "problem" is so
: small as to be an acceptable risk.

Yes, YOUR hatred against anything you either have been told is
not 'correct' or what you don't understand is indeed a Strew
Man...

There is only one reason for laws and regulations, to protect, if
you are claiming that one system is no more safe than any other
you are suggesting that there is no need/point in having any
regulations in the first place!

"Man at B&Q" wrote in message
...

snip
:
: ********, it only need metal the same dia of
: the BS fuse,

: How many people do you know who would go to
: the bother of finding a bolt of the correct diameter

Someone who doesn't have a replacement fuse at a time when (for
what ever reason) they can't not purchase the correct fuse, or
even the incorrect fuse but - believe - they have to have the
appliance operational...

: and cutting it to length just to avoid fitting a fuse?
: An incorrectly rated fuse is a far more likely scenario.

Indeed, such as a piece of copper wire fitted along-side the
blown BS fuse...
--
Regards, Jerry.

"The Wanderer" wrote in message
.. .
: On Thu, 2 Sep 2010 21:56:14 +0100, Jerry wrote:
:
: "The Wanderer" wrote in message
: .. .
: : On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:04:40 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
: :
: :
: : No offence Jerry, but this is a load of ill thought out
: twaddle.
: :
: : snipped excellent reply
: :
: : What an elegantly crafted reply!
: :
:
: Another unthinking parrot, "the regs say such and such, so
that
: is that then"...
:
: Whatever you say, Jerry.
:
: I'm minded of the proud mum watching her army son marching with
all his
: fellow squaddies. 'Ooh look! My son's the only one in
step......'
:

Well yes, the regulations/Sergeant decreases something and from
that day on that is the only way what-ever can be safely
achieved...
--
Regards, Jerry.

"harry" wrote in message
...
: On 3 Sep, 06:56, The Wanderer wrote:
: On Thu, 2 Sep 2010 21:56:14 +0100, Jerry wrote:
: "The Wanderer" wrote in message
: . ..
: : On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:04:40 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
: :
: :
: : No offence Jerry, but this is a load of ill thought out
: twaddle.
: :
: : snipped excellent reply
: :
: : What an elegantly crafted reply!
: :
:
: Another unthinking parrot, "the regs say such and such, so
that
: is that then"...
:
: Whatever you say, Jerry.
:
: I'm minded of the proud mum watching her army son marching
with all his
: fellow squaddies. 'Ooh look! My son's the only one in
step......'
:
:
: We're talking about a Yank here. They don't even get a proper
: education.

Is "The Wanderer" a Yank then, or were you talking about yourself
again "Harry", what with your AOL account and all that?!...

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
: On 02/09/2010 21:51, Jerry wrote:

snipped
:
: Oh, so taking out just a room rather than a floor (as is
usual
: with a ring circuit) is worse?!
:
: Oh so taking out a room, rather than just the plug fuse for the
: appliance in question is better?
:

No, but we were talking about faults that DO trip the D-board
protection, that said it is FAR better just to take out one room
than a whole floor/all power in the dwelling.

:
: :
: : The ONLY two advantage of ring circuits is installation
cost
: and
: : smaller size of fuse/CB panel.
: :
: : In fact neither of these are true now. Installation cost,
when
: : installing from scratch is not significantly different.
:
: But was when the UK ring circuit was first designed and
:
: It was by virtue of it allowing adaptation and re-use of
existing wiring
: - two 15A circuits could be combined into one that could
reasonably used
: to heat a storey of a property. If laying in cables from
scratch there
: is not much in it.
:
: introduced, now the ring has just become the day-facto
standard
: and is often installed without (prior) thought.
:
: Given it has proved its versatility and safety, then that is
probably a
: good thing.

But radials were also common in the 1950s, they were (and where
they still exist, are) safe, most will have had modern sockets
fitted and as such have the one advantage (local/final protection
of the appliance) of the BS1363 plug but without the possibility
of gross abuse that is possible when used on ring circuits.

:
: Also remember
: : than in the UK we can have 32A radial circuits if required,
so
: there is
: : no particular advantage in reducing the number of ways in a
: consumer
: : unit either.
:
: But the use of ring circuits HAS resulted in a reduction in
the
: number of ways in the average domestic D-board.
:
: Compared to what?
:
: 40 years ago a domestic house probably had a four or five way
board if
: you were lucky. These days 8 - 12 is more common.

Yes, and that is for ring circuits!

Lets look at what could be a typical radial circuit instillation,
take the average modern 4 bed (CH installed) two floor family
house with a living, dinning, study. Dealing with just the power
circuits most dwellings will have no more than two ring circuits
(perhaps three if it's thought that diversification will be
insufficient in the kitchen/utility room), plus a circuit each
for emersion heater, cooker feed, shower - that equates to SIX
power circuit protection devices at the D-board. Now lets take
the same dwelling that has been fitted with radial circuits
through out, we will need at least one protection device [1]
(@15A) for each bedroom, the living room, dinning room, study,
hall + landing - that is NINE circuit breakers (allowing for two
double sockets in each room) without even considering the kitchen
or other currently installed radial circuits, one could easily
get close to needing a 15 to 20 way D-board JUST for the power
circuits. This is the only advantage of ring circuits, but only
then at installation, and of course architects and builders would
have to think were to site such a D-board - no more just bunging
it behind the swing of the front door in the entrance hall...

[1] yes, diversification *might* be possible between some rooms

:
:
: :
: : It is important to realise that what started as a way of
saving
: copper
: : after the war, has been refined and improved over the
years, to
: what we
: : have now, which is a circuit that is very well suited to
modern
: patterns
: : of use.
:
: Has it been refined, *circuit* protection might have been
refined
: and this has allowed a refinement in conductor size etc. but
the
: circuit design and end appliance protection hasn't been
refined
: that much if at all.
:
: The basic circuit design is similar (but much more research has
been
: conducted into understanding de-rating factors resulting from
cable
: grouping, ambient temperature, installation method etc, and
into
: understanding the appropriate limits to circuit length (due to
voltage
: drop or earth loop impedance)). Cable earth conductor sizes
have been
: changed in places, and fuses have generally be replaced by dual
acting
: miniature circuit breakers. RCDs are now used extensively.
:
: What has changed massively is modern usage.
:
: A few years ago I rewired a neighbours house. It had its
original wiring
: as installed in the early '50s (plus a bit of bodging from the
owner!).
: It was instructive to see what constituted a typical electrical
: installation.
:
: There were four circuits in total - two lighting, two power
(the power
: circuits were radials wired in rubber sheathed cable with a
separate
: bare earth wire). Each power circuit fed approx 4 sockets -
giving a
: total of 9 for the whole house (and these were all single
sockets).
:
: When we designed what was needed for their actual usage, we
ended up
: with something like 34 double sockets. That was three rings
(upstairs,
: downstairs, and kitchen), two lighting circuits (one per
floor), and
: high integrity radial with its own dedicated higher threshold
RCD for
: the freezers, CH boiler, and fish tank, plus a sub main feed
for the
: outbuildings.
:
: One could have slapped in a a few extra radials for each floors
sockets,
: but it would have added little of any great value. Its unlikely
the
: circuit breaker for any power circuit will ever trip. If the CH
fails,
: and they want to plug in a couple of 3kW heaters, then they can
do that
: pretty much anywhere, without fear or tripping something.

Hmm, with a separate radial circuit to each bedroom it would be
possible (within the limit of the company fuse...) to have a 3Kw
fire in each bedroom, one will start having problems trying to do
that with the typically wired ring circuits found in the average
modern house.

Meanwhile
: should a wire work loose somewhere, there is a reduce chance of
: overheating of loss of earthing due to the redundancy of the
ring circuit.

********, with respect, the same loading could be applied to the
faulty circuit, that could well mean that the one 2.5T&E will be
taking the full 30A load (your ideal failure would *have* to be
exactly half way around the ring, so not to unbalance the
circuit)... If the same wire came loose within a radial circuit
it would either fail completely or the serious fault would be
very evident to all by the terminally and literally mentally
clueless.

:
: The ring circuit is also well suited to provision of power
for
: : "diverse" loads - i.e. large numbers of appliances can be
: provided for
: : over a large floor area, and also higher power devices can
be
: included
: : in that mix without fear or overloading a circuit.
:
: Err, one can only use, either, the number of appliances up to
the
: total number and rating of sockets or the total rating of the
: circuit, the same is true of radial circuits. 'Diversity' is
: applicable to the loading of radial circuits as it is to ring
: circuits.
:
: Diversity applies to both, however the more floor area covered,
and the
: more appliances in question, the more diversity there is.

Only if there is sufficient ring circuits, the average new
'system/price' built house will often only have bare necessity.
Most people do *not* live in that perfect world called utopia.

:
: Alternatively they
: : also cope with applications where many high power
appliances
: are used in
: : proximity such as kitchens, where the ability to provision
for
: 7.2kW of
: : load without needing unmanageable cables sizes is a great
: advantage.
:
: Sorry but that sounds somewhat like a straw-man argument, how
: many domestic kitchens would draw that sort of (non
"diverse")
:
: Domestic kitchens with an appliance load of 9 - 12kw are common
here.
: Most will have dish washer, washing machine, and drier, and
each of
: those will often pull 2 - 3kW. On top of that many single ovens
up to a
: couple of kW are designed to "plug in". A kw of microwave, and
on top of
: that you will usually have a few "small" appliances like a 3kW
kettle,
: and 2kW toaster etc (you can ignore those from loading calcs
since they
: are such short term loads). There will often be dedicated 32A
or 40A
: radials for cooker supplies where electric cookers and hobs are
installed.

But as you say, most if nor all have more than one circuit
supplying the kitchen, thus one is having to build diversity into
the instillation anyway...

:
: (its worth noting that the easy availability of a 3kW supply to
an
: appliance means the appliances available and commonly used are
different
: from in some countries. So in places like the US electric
kettles are
: much less commonly used due to lack of power, and "wet"
appliances
: usually have hot fill etc to save needing to heat water locally
and
: slowly etc).
:
:
: load [1] and if we are talking about industrial installations
: then running radial circuits via a sub-main and sub-board
could
: be as convenient, with the added advantage of appliance
: redundancy - not having the one out all out total failure of
a
: ring circuit tripping out.
:
: Again we keep coming back to "rings tripping out". As a general
rule not
: something that happens with great regularity.

In the perfect world it will never trip out, or would any radial,
the problems start *when* it does.

:
: The most common "trip" problem we tend to get here is with RCD
trips
: caused by faulty appliances (or damaged wiring). Neither of
which are
: going to benefit from being ignored from prolonged periods.

Indeed, but if the appliance is being feed via a radial it can
*often* be ignored - in so much as the circuit being left
isolated until such time (when ever that is), with a ring one has
to deal with fault by either correcting the fault or by removing
the appliance for the circuit unless one is prepared to have
everything feed from that ring circuit isolated also.

:
: [1] and as has been pointed out elsewhere, if 7.2KW of non
: diverse load does need to be supplied then 2/3rds of the
cabling
: needed for three radial circuits would be needed in a
dedicated
: ring circuit anyway.
:
: yes, and?

I was merely pointing out that the only saving between three
separate radials and one ring circuit was a length of wire and a
couple of CBs in the above scenario, in other words we're back to
arguing instillation costs.

:
: : You have a circuit that behaves better under most of the
common
: failure
: : modes in circuit wiring (i.e. high resistance or broken
: conductors), and
: : retains higher levels of protection under most of these
failure
: modes.
:
: In other words, what you seem to be saying is, the ring
circuit
: is good at masking (possibly) fatal faults, such as a
: disconnected conductor, thus the circuit has the same load on
a
: single 2.5mm T&E rather than sharing the load between two
sets of
: such conductors...
:
: The most common fault is a high resistance connection (loose
screw
: terminal etc). You will tend to get less serious overheating on
a ring,
: and usually no increase in fault disconnection times.
:
: The next most common fault is a broken earth conductor (its
thinner and
: uninsulated), again a ring carries on safely while a radial
will have a
: proportion of its sockets without any earth.

Not sure if we are getting close to a strew man argument here,
surely the most common point of such failure is at the mechanical
joint(s) and as such both conductors could - if not would - fail
at that point, thus in both a ring and radial circuit if it is a
positive or neutral conductor fault then that socket is likely to
stop working (or worse still, become intermittent under load) but
on a ring every other socket will carry on regardless, on a
radial anything down-stream of the fault will also fail. In the
above earth conductor fault occur then that socket will have lost
it's earth with either ring or radial circuits. I can accept that
there is an added (theoretical) risk on radial circuits should
the earth conductor fault occur, not only would the socket in
question have a earth fault but any socket down-stream would too.

:
: The next most common is a broken live or neutral conductor.
Here a ring
: *can* mask the condition where it should be apparent on a
radial.
: However on most real world ring circuits you would still
probably get
: away with a fault like this without anything serious happening.

Well yes, but in most modern real world faults, what with the
typical double insulated, low consumption, devices in used today,
many faults can go undetected for years, but is that really the
point, if it is then what's with all the regs...

:
: Needless to say you can't always have the best of all worlds,
so it seem
: preferable to me that you use what performs best with the most
likely
: faults and that is the ring circuit.

So you advise the masking of *possibly* dangerous faults, that is
what you seem to be saying? FXCough/FX! :~)

:
: : For a full description see:
: :
:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?..._circuit_types
: :
: : Ring circuits typically have lower earth fault loop
impedances
: as well,
: : result in quicker clearing of faults.
: :
:
: Why should that be, and what would need to be changed in a
radial
: circuit spec to mirror the results found in ring circuits?
:
: A radial will typically be wired in 2.5 or 4mm T&E, both of
which have a
: 1.5mm CPC (earth), a ring in effect has two of them in
parallel. Hence
: the fault loop impedance tends to be lower on the ring due to
the area
: of copper involved.
:
: Radials can be wired with what is called high integrity
earthing - here
: the CPC is returned to the origin as if it were a ring, and
also the two
: earth connections to each socket are made to independent
terminals on
: the socket. This system is usually specified for when it is
known there
: will be high earth leakage currents - typical with lots of IT
or other
: electronic kit where there are lots of mains input filters
sticking
: capacitors between line and earth.

Cheers for that.

:
: With regards dealing with the effects of loose connections,
there is not
: much you can do with a radial intrinsicly to improve it, other
than
: specify more frequent inspection and test, and to ensure a good
standard
: of workmanship is maintained during construction.
:

Surely all it would just require is the installation of a return
earth, either via a new spec of 4 core cable (T&E[x2]) or a
separate earth wire run along side, either method would add
little to the work or cost of instillation of each radial
circuit - yes it will cost more, radials circuits do cost more,
I've already conceded that point. :~)

PS, sorry for the delayed replies.
--
Regards, Jerry.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Jerry"
saying something like:

Fortunately not, unlike you I don't need to be a pizzle, living
in Neverland, with a "Nanny-on-line" (aka AOL) ISP account and be
a Google groupie...


LOL!
Spectacular grabbing of the wrong end of the stick, by Jerry.
Nothing new there, then.

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in
message ...
:
: We were somewhere around Barstow,

usual abusive trolling snipped
: Nothing new there, then.

No "Grimly" there is nothing new or changed about *your*
attitude, you are still the same old troll, unable to think
anything other than what you have read via Google or Usenet. :~(

There is nothing wrong or dangerous about using radial circuits,
the same can't be said about many aspects of the typical ring
circuit, only UK building convention over the last 60 odd years
has made ring circuits the day-facto installation for domestic
dwellings (mainly due to cost). I doubt that "Grimly" have ever
lived or worked on a radial instillation...
--
Regards, Jerry.

On Sep 9, 6:20*pm, "Jerry" wrote:
"Man at B&Q" wrote in ...

snip

:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

: No one in this thread is claiming that abusing
: the system is any safer, only that the incidence
: of such behaviour leading to a "problem" is so
: small as to be an acceptable risk.

Yes, YOUR hatred against anything you either have been told is
not 'correct' or what you don't understand is indeed a Strew
Man...

There is only one reason for laws and regulations, to protect, if
you are claiming that one system is no more safe than any other

I never made such a claim. I merely pointed out that NO ONE in this
thread had made a claim that ABUSING a system was safer, in response
to your strawman question "How is ... being able to protect their 3amp
table lamp via a bolt ... any more safe than ..."

you are suggesting that there is no need/point in having any
regulations in the first place!

Faulty logic, on your part, there..

MBQ

On Sep 9, 6:06*pm, "Jerry" wrote:
"Man at B&Q" wrote in ...

snip

: The regs, if followed, will protect everyone from bad
: installation. They might not, and should not attempt
: to IMHO, protect you from yourself.

No, surely the regs should protect *everyone" from either bad
instillation OR from what others have done (try reading the first
rule in the H&S regs, or are you suggesting that H&S rags should
be scrapped...),

Glad to see you agree that they are not theer to protect idiots
deliberately abusing the system from themselves.

and as there is nothing dangerous about radial
circuits or their installation

Not dengerous per se, but they can be just as dangerous if an idiot
starts messing with them.

MBQ

"Man at B&Q" wrote in message
...
On Sep 9, 6:06 pm, "Jerry"
wrote:

[ re the BS1364 plug, ring circuits and their forgotten safety
issues ]

snip
: No, surely the regs should protect *everyone"
: from either bad instillation OR from what others
: have done (try reading the first rule in the H&S
: regs, or are you suggesting that H&S rags should
: be scrapped...),

: Glad to see you agree that they are not theer to
: protect idiots deliberately abusing the system
: from themselves.

But I don't. Forget the idiot, think about those that follow.
Tell us, do you check every BS1363 plug for the fitment of the
correctly rated fuse before using the appliance or do you assume
(like most do) that the correct fuse if fitted?...

: and as there is nothing dangerous about
: radial circuits or their installation
:
: Not dengerous per se, but they can be just as
: dangerous if an idiot starts messing with them.

Not unless they use more than a kitchen knife, at least on a
modern rCB D-board, unlike ring circuits (protected at twice the
rating of the average radial circuit) and the current trend of
moulded-on BS1363 plugs...
--
Regards, Jerry.

"Man at B&Q" wrote in message
...
On Sep 9, 6:20 pm, "Jerry"
wrote:

snip
: There is only one reason for laws and regulations,
: to protect, if you are claiming that one system is
: no more safe than any other
:
: I never made such a claim.

Liar. If you are not a liar then you are proving that you do not
understand the difference between the final protection fitted to
a radial and a ring circuit...

: you are suggesting that there is no need/point in
: having any regulations in the first place!
:
: Faulty logic, on your part, there..

But it is you who seems to be arguing that allowing the easy
bridging out of the final protection device before the appliance
is safe.
--
Regards, Jerry.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Jerry"
saying something like:


"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in
message ...
:
: We were somewhere around Barstow,

usual abusive trolling snipped
: Nothing new there, then.

No "Grimly" there is nothing new or changed about *your*
attitude, you are still the same old troll, unable to think
anything other than what you have read via Google or Usenet. :~(

Ooh, Jerry's found some new words.
From somewhere else on the web, I've no doubt.

There is nothing wrong or dangerous about using radial circuits,
the same can't be said about many aspects of the typical ring
circuit, only UK building convention over the last 60 odd years
has made ring circuits the day-facto installation for domestic
dwellings (mainly due to cost). I doubt that "Grimly" have ever
lived or worked on a radial instillation...


That'd be a mega-whoosh, then.
Now, pay attention, for I shall write this only once - the wrong end of
the stick I referred to was the poster using AOL, who you wrongly
assumed was an American poster.
Nothing at all to do with ring v. radial circuits, or even anything
electrical.
You can go back to your Big Boy's Colour Illustrated Book of Electricity
(vol 1, 1957) now Jerry, and try to absorb some more of that fascinating
theory. Oh, and keep banging those rocks - finally something might fall
into place.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
: On 09/09/2010 17:41, Jerry wrote:

snipped
:
: Indeed, and I have lived in modern UK built dwellings were
one
: faulty appliance trips out the whole frecking power for the
: dwelling! I've also lived in (then, un-modernised) pre-war
:
: Indeed there was a time when RCDs first became popular that
they were
: fitted to protect a whole installation. Its a deprecated
practice now of
: course, but there are still some out there.

I was talking about a time when RCDs were not even fitted, just
the (then standard) wire fuse...

:
: dwellings that were better built than their modern
equivalent.
: Put it this way, the serious operational failings found with
ring
: circuits almost certainly stops them being used on safety
: critical circuits. The problem with North American electrical
:
: That's twaddle. The operations failings of radials actually
pose a
: higher risk is a non interruptible supply is of critical
concern.

Says who, the 16th/17th edition...

Put it this way, if you had to spec the instillation for
something like dialysis (or other life/system critical) machines
would you be happy with them being on a ring circuit were they
could all be tripped out by any fault on the circuit or would you
prefer it to have a dedicated supply (in effect a radial circuit)
to each machine?
--
Regards, Jerry.

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in
message ...

snip
:
: That'd be a mega-whoosh, then.
: Now, pay attention, for I shall write this only once - the
wrong end of
: the stick I referred to was the poster using AOL, who you
wrongly
: assumed was an American poster.

Indeed it does seem to have been a maga-whoosh moment for *you*
Grimly, as usual you fail completely to actually understand what
was being said, try actually reading the comment and context
again. :~(

: Nothing at all to do with ring v. radial circuits, or even
anything
: electrical.

So you admit to trolling then...
--
"You obviously couldn't get a clue if you rolled in
clue musk and performed the clue mating dance
in the middle of a field full of horny clues at the
height of the clue mating season!"

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Jerry"
saying something like:

Indeed it does seem to have been a maga-whoosh moment for *you*
Grimly, as usual you fail completely to actually understand what
was being said, try actually reading the comment and context
again. :~(

Wriggling again.

On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 01:01:38 +0100, Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Jerry"
saying something like:

Indeed it does seem to have been a maga-whoosh moment for *you* Grimly,
as usual you fail completely to actually understand what was being said,
try actually reading the comment and context again. :~(

Wriggling again.

You have to make allowances, you know. Jerry is obviously a product of
the US educational system, and it obviously makes understanding a little
hard for him.

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

Personally I dislike BS1363(/A) plugs because of the square pins.
Many sockets have a mechanism/shutter design that is intolerant to
plug pins being slightly out of alignment or inserted non-
perpendicularly - with the result they jam entirely (MK).

Contrast with 15A round pin plugs, with a shuttered socket, which are
more tolerant and robust. A real pity they did not create a 30A round
pin plug, with shuttered socket, for electric cookers (Lewden is
unshuttered AFAIK).

With 15A plug n socket you are forced to use multiple radials rather
than 1-2 rings, which with hindsight might have been beneficial except
for a kitchen. It is in a kitchen where a 32A ring makes it easy to
connect numerous appliances with BS1363(/A) plug top fusing-down in
any location. In the USA you end up with multiple 110V radials plus a
few 230V radials for "high load appliances", thus appliance location
tends to be somewhat more "fixed".

USA's biggest problem is poor wiring accessories, good ones exist, but
those fitted appear often more suited to 1.5V :-) USA wiring systems
appear very 1920s due to semi-industrial looking fuseboard and in
particular the widespread use of Romex (flexible conduit), plus there
is no direct domestic equivalent of SWA surprisingly.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
: On 10/09/2010 21:05, Jerry wrote:

snip
:
: Put it this way, if you had to spec the instillation for
: something like dialysis (or other life/system critical)
machines
: would you be happy with them being on a ring circuit were
they
: could all be tripped out by any fault on the circuit or would
you
: prefer it to have a dedicated supply (in effect a radial
circuit)
: to each machine?
:
: I would rather a dedicated ring circuit (and a UPS!)
:

Is that a UPS for each machine, otherwise one fault will still
take out both main and UPS...

If radial circuits are so bad, why have they a/. not been
outlawed and b/. why are spurs off ring circuits allowed as a
spur has many of the same characteristics of a radial circuit,
especially if the load (socket) is some distance from the
junction point?

On Sep 10, 7:51*pm, "Jerry" wrote:
"Man at B&Q" wrote in ...
On Sep 9, 6:20 pm, "Jerry"
wrote:

snip
: There is only one reason for laws and regulations,
: to protect, if you are claiming that one system is
: no more safe than any other
:
: I never made such a claim.

Liar.

So give the quote where I claimed that one system is safer than
another.

If you are not a liar then you are proving that you do not
understand the difference between the final protection fitted to
a radial and a ring circuit...

: you are suggesting that there is no need/point in
: having any regulations in the first place!
:
: Faulty logic, on your part, there..

But it is you who seems to be arguing that allowing the easy
bridging out of the final protection device before the appliance
is safe.

Where did I say that? All I have said (implicitly) is that the regs as
they stand are safe enough and if people want to be stupid then it's
none of my business.

MBQ

On Sep 10, 7:40*pm, "Jerry" wrote:
"Man at B&Q" wrote in ...
On Sep 9, 6:06 pm, "Jerry"
wrote:

[ re the BS1364 plug, ring circuits and their forgotten safety
issues ]

snip
: No, surely the regs should protect *everyone"
: from either bad instillation OR from what others
: have done (try reading the first rule in the H&S
: regs, or are you suggesting that H&S rags should
: be scrapped...),

: Glad to see you agree that they are not theer to
: protect idiots deliberately abusing the system
: from themselves.

But I don't. Forget the idiot, think about those that follow.
Tell us, do you check every BS1363 plug for the fitment of the
correctly rated fuse before using the appliance or do you assume
(like most do) that the correct fuse if fitted?...

If it's a brand new appliance or lead, then I assume that it's safe.
If I wire it myself I am confident it is safe. If it's something I
have owned for a while I am confident that the BS1363 fairies have not
tampered with it. If it comes into my posession with unknown
provenance then I check it.

MBQ

John Rumm wrote:

Put it this way, if you had to spec the instillation for
something like dialysis (or other life/system critical) machines
would you be happy with them being on a ring circuit were they
could all be tripped out by any fault on the circuit or would you
prefer it to have a dedicated supply (in effect a radial circuit)
to each machine?

I would rather a dedicated ring circuit (and a UPS!)

The story from my Mum was that when she was doing her nurse training in the
early 1960s was that the cleaner used to unplug vital life saving equipment
to plug in the vacuum cleaner.

--
Adam

ARWadsworth wrote:

The story from my Mum was that when she was doing her nurse training in the
early 1960s was that the cleaner used to unplug vital life saving equipment
to plug in the vacuum cleaner.

Hence Walsall gauge 13A sockets (though I guess they still have to
unplug the equipment to find out their hoover won't fit).

On 11/09/10 15:10, Jerry wrote:
"John wrote in message
...
: On 10/09/2010 21:05, Jerry wrote:

snip
:
: Put it this way, if you had to spec the instillation for
: something like dialysis (or other life/system critical)
machines
: would you be happy with them being on a ring circuit were
they
: could all be tripped out by any fault on the circuit or would
you
: prefer it to have a dedicated supply (in effect a radial
circuit)
: to each machine?
:
: I would rather a dedicated ring circuit (and a UPS!)
:

Is that a UPS for each machine, otherwise one fault will still
take out both main and UPS...

If radial circuits are so bad, why have they a/. not been
outlawed and b/. why are spurs off ring circuits allowed as a
spur has many of the same characteristics of a radial circuit,
especially if the load (socket) is some distance from the
junction point?



USP feeding an individually fused IEC strip or 13A strip with 3A fuses
in the plugtops is a sensible precaution for this.

Cheers

Tim

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

snip
:
: It tends to be less of an issue nowadays anyway, most kit sold
is
: targeted at an international market, and hence has to be fitted
with a
: flex that will be adequately fault protected on a 16A circuit
breaker
: for countries that don't have BS1363 plugs or similar, and so
is safe on
: a 13A fuse.
:

That, as has been pointed out already, is not true for the UK
market as they have to be supplied with a fitted BS1363 plug, an
increasing number of UK appliances thus come with a suitably
rated flex that corresponds to the rating to the fuse (device)
installed in the moulded on plug.
--
Regards, Jerry.

On Sep 11, 7:05*pm, "Jerry" wrote:
On Sep 10, 7:51 pm, "Jerry"
wrote:

"Man at B&Q" wrote in
...
On Sep 9, 6:20 pm, "Jerry"
wrote:

snip
: There is only one reason for laws and regulations,
: to protect, if you are claiming that one system is
: no more safe than any other
:
: I never made such a claim.

Liar.

: So give the quote where I claimed that one system
: is safer than another.

"No one in this thread is claiming that abusing the
system is any safer, only that the incidence of such
behaviour leading to a "problem" is so small as to
be an acceptable risk."

If the risks within one set of regs is more acceptable then by

I didn't say the risks within one system are more acceptable than the
risks in another system. I said that _one_ particular risk (from
abusing the system) in _one_ system is so small as to be an acceptable
risk.

Now show where I have discussed what the acceptable (or indeed
unacceptable) risks of the other system might be?

That's right, I haven't. I have made no claim about the overall
relative risks or safety of any systems.

Once again. I have never claimed that one system is (overall) safer
than another.

MBQ

On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 19:38:19 +0100, "Jerry"
wrote:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
news:yNudnWJPdevdOhbRnZ2dnUVZ8kKdnZ2d@brightview. co.uk...

snip
:
: It tends to be less of an issue nowadays anyway, most kit sold
is
: targeted at an international market, and hence has to be fitted
with a
: flex that will be adequately fault protected on a 16A circuit
breaker
: for countries that don't have BS1363 plugs or similar, and so
is safe on
: a 13A fuse.
:

That, as has been pointed out already, is not true for the UK
market as they have to be supplied with a fitted BS1363 plug,

Only for the _domestic_ market.

--
Frank Erskine

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Jerry"
saying something like:

Not at all Grimly, as I said, try reading that segment of this
thread again, complete with context.

You lose.

On Thu, 9 Sep 2010 18:34:11 +0100, Jerry wrote:

"The Wanderer" wrote in message
.. .
: On Thu, 2 Sep 2010 21:56:14 +0100, Jerry wrote:
:
: "The Wanderer" wrote in message
: .. .
:: On Thu, 02 Sep 2010 14:04:40 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
::
::
:: No offence Jerry, but this is a load of ill thought out
: twaddle.
::
:: snipped excellent reply
::
:: What an elegantly crafted reply!
::
:
: Another unthinking parrot, "the regs say such and such, so
that
: is that then"...
:
: Whatever you say, Jerry.
:
: I'm minded of the proud mum watching her army son marching with
all his
: fellow squaddies. 'Ooh look! My son's the only one in
step......'
:

Well yes, the regulations/Sergeant decreases something and from
that day on that is the only way what-ever can be safely
achieved...

Whooosh!


--
The Wanderer

Faith is a gift from your God
Religion is a gift from the Devil

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in
message ...
: We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert,
when the
: drugs began to take hold. I remember "Jerry"
: saying something like:
:
: Not at all Grimly, as I said, try reading that segment of this
: thread again, complete with context.
:
: You lose.

Not in the slightest, as you would know if you had bothered to
read the context, but then idiot trolls like you never do like
the actual facts...

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
: On 11/09/2010 19:38, Jerry wrote:
: "John wrote in message
: o.uk...
:
: snip
: :
: : It tends to be less of an issue nowadays anyway, most kit
sold
: is
: : targeted at an international market, and hence has to be
fitted
: with a
: : flex that will be adequately fault protected on a 16A
circuit
: breaker
: : for countries that don't have BS1363 plugs or similar, and
so
: is safe on
: : a 13A fuse.
: :
:
: That, as has been pointed out already, is not true for the UK
: market as they have to be supplied with a fitted BS1363 plug,
an
:
: It has to be fitted with a plug (although this is often a
wrapper round
: a euro style two pin plug on many lower power appliances), but
that does
: not mean the flex is changed for a smaller one just for us.
:
: increasing number of UK appliances thus come with a suitably
: rated flex that corresponds to the rating to the fuse
(device)
: installed in the moulded on plug.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
:
: Other way round actually - the trend is toward more
harmonisation with
: the rest of Europe rather than less. Its also important to keep
in mind
: that the plug fuse is there to provide fault protection and not
overload
: protection. So even a notional 3A flex will quite likely be
adequately
: protected by a 13 fuse.
:

You do talk utter tosh at times John, did you actually bother to
read (now highlighted) what I said before typing that load of
bilge?!
--
Regards, Jerry.