Have just been made redundant from my job in IT and am finding it hard
to find another.

Even the 1st line and 2nd line jobs now want you to have an MCSE.

One option is to go and get an MCSE, but then there's the lack of a
degree, and the lack of 3 years feeding and caring for a server farm
which aren't so easily rectified.

I also suspect the lack of interest in me may be due to the recruiters
being able to work out my age from the fact I took O'Levels rather
than GCSEs

I do have an interest in audio (PA) and obviously D-I-Y.

Anyone any suggestions for a good line of work to be getting into?

wrote in message
...
Have just been made redundant from my job in IT and am finding it hard
to find another.


Look harder then, it will not be handed to you!

Even the 1st line and 2nd line jobs now want you to have an MCSE.


It sorts out the hobbyist from someone who can do the work.

One option is to go and get an MCSE, but then there's the lack of a
degree,

Not always required, less companies are taking those with a degree
as it means nothing now. It is not a substitute for experience and
skill - so employers go for that now instead.
Who wants someone with a degree that they have to spend lots of
money on training them to do the job!

and the lack of 3 years feeding and caring for a server farm
which aren't so easily rectified.


No idea what you are talking about or how it applies.

I also suspect the lack of interest in me may be due to the recruiters
being able to work out my age from the fact I took O'Levels rather
than GCSEs


I doubt it, it's just that you don't have the required expertise or
decent references from previous employers. They want experience
so you need to sell yourself more.

I do have an interest in audio (PA) and obviously D-I-Y.


Good, I like washing my car and giving it a showroom shine
and also growing sweetcorn.

Anyone any suggestions for a good line of work to be getting into?

No, not really. Most people take what they can - something they
can use experience and skills in.

Roger wrote:
wrote in message

I do have an interest in audio (PA) and obviously D-I-Y.


Good, I like washing my car and giving it a showroom shine
and also growing sweetcorn.

FWIW 'Roger' is a known troublesome ******(*) that trolls on the UK
newsgroups mouthing disinformation and being generally nasty, mostly to
receive a response. In his 'answers' to your thread (and others), you'll
notice his usenet behavior mostly matches that of a aggressive
narcissist psychopath. He really hasn't any concern in your well-being.

* was recently posting as Clive, has been the 'Tiscali Idiot' for
somewhat longer.

--
Adrian C

gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

I also suspect the lack of interest in me may be due to the recruiters
being able to work out my age from the fact I took O'Levels rather than
GCSEs

Unlikely - I took O-levels, rather than GCSEs, and am still a couple of
years off turning 40.

Anyway - if you're being complete and honest about your employment
history, they'll surely have a reasonable inkling that you're not in your
early 20s...

"Roger" gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

Even the 1st line and 2nd line jobs now want you to have an MCSE.

It sorts out the hobbyist from someone who can do the work.

Indeed. Those who can actually do the work haven't bothered to waste the
time and effort on such a long devalued, utter waste-of-space
"qualification".

On 17/09/09 18:41, Adrian wrote:
gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

Even the 1st line and 2nd line jobs now want you to have an MCSE.

It sorts out the hobbyist from someone who can do the work.

Indeed. Those who can actually do the work haven't bothered to waste the
time and effort on such a long devalued, utter waste-of-space
"qualification".

+1

wrote in message
...
Have just been made redundant from my job in IT and am finding it hard
to find another.

Even the 1st line and 2nd line jobs now want you to have an MCSE.

One option is to go and get an MCSE, but then there's the lack of a
degree, and the lack of 3 years feeding and caring for a server farm
which aren't so easily rectified.

Support jobs may not need degrees, but if you want to do professional stuff
people will filter for qualifications and bin your application without
looking at it if there's nothing.

I also suspect the lack of interest in me may be due to the recruiters
being able to work out my age from the fact I took O'Levels rather
than GCSEs

If you're good, none of this will be relevant. But I've no idea if you're
any good. Do you have drive, nous, etc? Or did you just do what you were
told?

Are you looking for lots of money? Do you have a track record which supports
that claim?

Where in the country are you?

3 years off to do a degree isn't a bad idea right now if you're up to it and
want to turn more professional in IT.

Or there's always the option of setting up on your own - see eg TMH. I
reckon people are getting lazier - I know I am :-) - so his business model
is moderately viable for somebody without huge ambitions but some ability.

On 17/09/09 19:40, Clive George wrote:

there's always the option of setting up on your own - see eg TMH.
his business model
is moderately viable for somebody without huge ambitions but some ability.

Did you forget to prefix that with "with all due respect"? :-P

Clive George wrote:


Or there's always the option of setting up on your own - see eg TMH. I
reckon people are getting lazier - I know I am :-) - so his business
model is moderately viable for somebody without huge ambitions but
some ability.

'Moderately viable'? Strange choice of phrase.

I can earn a very good living without much in the way of stress, so its
certainly viable. I'll never be a millionaire doing what I do, but that
wasn't the plan.

I feel a new thread coming on :-)


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Clive George wrote:
wrote in message
...
Have just been made redundant from my job in IT and am finding it
hard to find another.

Snipped

so his business
model is moderately viable for somebody without huge ambitions but
some ability.

ROTFL - let's list that:

1 *Huge* ambitions - what becoming a general purpose handyman!
2 Some ability - in what? How to go to a job, look at it, post on this
group asking how can it to be done and then take the **** out of his
customer - oh, and the brag how good *he* is!

Now if you'd have said he'd gone from a garden snail catcher to the heady
levels of a degree and picked up a first in bull**** and belligerence
well....

In message
,
writes
Have just been made redundant from my job in IT and am finding it hard
to find another.

Even the 1st line and 2nd line jobs now want you to have an MCSE.

One option is to go and get an MCSE, but then there's the lack of a
degree, and the lack of 3 years feeding and caring for a server farm
which aren't so easily rectified.

I also suspect the lack of interest in me may be due to the recruiters
being able to work out my age from the fact I took O'Levels rather
than GCSEs

I do have an interest in audio (PA) and obviously D-I-Y.

Anyone any suggestions for a good line of work to be getting into?

Plumber


--
geoff

Clive George coughed up some electrons that declared:


3 years off to do a degree isn't a bad idea right now if you're up to it
and want to turn more professional in IT.

And doing a proper Computer Science degree IMO will cut more sway than a
Computer Technology degree. The former is to the latter as Applied
Mathematics/Physics is to Vehicle Servicing.

BTW - I don't have a CompSci degree - I worked in the "hard way" from
another numerate discipline - I wish I had done CompSci because it would
have made doing the right thing the first time much easier in so many
projects...

A CT degree will probably aid in getting a basic sysadmin or web-dude job. A
CompSci degree leaves that option intact (as well as helping to get a
sysadmin job in a fun higher class university) and opens up doing more
novel stuff too like R&D for small or big companies (hint IBM Hursley don't
recruit people with Applied Javascript and Flash Wibbling).

OTOH, my last (small) company was far more interested in aptitude. In fact
one of the new directors started there yonks ago on work experience or
something.

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 17:41:00 +0000, Adrian wrote:

"Roger" gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

Even the 1st line and 2nd line jobs now want you to have an MCSE.

It sorts out the hobbyist from someone who can do the work.

Indeed. Those who can actually do the work haven't bothered to waste the
time and effort on such a long devalued, utter waste-of-space
"qualification".

Heh. The client site I work on has banned one of my MCSE guys from coming
to our site. He's a walking disaster area. Living proof, if any were
needed that anyone can get an MCSE or CCNA (he has that too) and still
not have a clue what they are talking about.

Mike P

Tim S gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

And doing a proper Computer Science degree IMO will cut more sway than a
Computer Technology degree. The former is to the latter as Applied
Mathematics/Physics is to Vehicle Servicing.

BTW - I don't have a CompSci degree

I do.

- I worked in the "hard way" from another numerate discipline - I wish
I had done CompSci because it would have made doing the right thing the
first time much easier in so many projects...

I wouldn't put money on that...

Unbeliever wrote:
Clive George wrote:
wrote in message
...
Have just been made redundant from my job in IT and am finding it
hard to find another.

Snipped

so his business
model is moderately viable for somebody without huge ambitions but
some ability.

ROTFL - let's list that:

Its that ****wit Tanner OP again, pretending (badly) to be someone else.

1 *Huge* ambitions - what becoming a general purpose handyman!

I did want to become a foremen with a council house in Caerphilly, but I
lacked the ambition & drive.

2 Some ability - in what? How to go to a job, look at it, post on
this group asking how can it to be done and then take the **** out of
his customer - oh, and the brag how good *he* is!

We've covered all this before **** for brains. You are now simply boring.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Adrian coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim S gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

And doing a proper Computer Science degree IMO will cut more sway than a
Computer Technology degree. The former is to the latter as Applied
Mathematics/Physics is to Vehicle Servicing.

BTW - I don't have a CompSci degree

I do.

- I worked in the "hard way" from another numerate discipline - I wish
I had done CompSci because it would have made doing the right thing the
first time much easier in so many projects...

I wouldn't put money on that...

Well, it was just silly things like having a more formal approach, having a
pocket full of algorithms instead of having to dig through Knuth or the
internet every time I wanted to do something a little bit interesting...

Tim S wrote:
Adrian coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim S gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

And doing a proper Computer Science degree IMO will cut more sway than a
Computer Technology degree. The former is to the latter as Applied
Mathematics/Physics is to Vehicle Servicing.

BTW - I don't have a CompSci degree
I do.

- I worked in the "hard way" from another numerate discipline - I wish
I had done CompSci because it would have made doing the right thing the
first time much easier in so many projects...
I wouldn't put money on that...

Well, it was just silly things like having a more formal approach, having a
pocket full of algorithms instead of having to dig through Knuth or the
internet every time I wanted to do something a little bit interesting...

in my experience compsci were the worst coders.

Mathematicians and physicists and engineers all had them beaten into a
cocked hat before they could even open Knuth.

The engfineers gerenally fiound somoen who had doen it first, ripped off
te code and had it working first, but a bit buggy.

The phsicists and scientists thought about it first THEN rippoed off te
code, took a bit longer and produced a better result.

Te mathematicians thought about it a lot, reduced it to some sort of
equation, and eventually dio teh best job of all.

The computers scientists spent ALL the time deciding which of two
hopelessly impractical approaches was 'the most elegant' or worst of
all, tried to code as if it was an exercise in pseudo coed and object
oriented design, and got themselves into such a mess that they had to be
taken off the project altogether.

Best of all were software engineers. People with a practical bent who
knew JUST enough about the WHOLE of a computer system to work out where
performance mattered, and were thick enough themselves to write clean
simple code that got the job done if not that elegantly, at least
understandably, and where to ask in the mathematicians to do the one
tricky algorithm they couldn't get their brains round.

The Natural Philosopher coughed up some electrons that declared:

The phsicists and scientists thought about it first THEN rippoed off te
code, took a bit longer and produced a better result.

Spooky - that's what I do...

Te mathematicians thought about it a lot, reduced it to some sort of
equation, and eventually dio teh best job of all.

LoL!

The computers scientists spent ALL the time deciding which of two
hopelessly impractical approaches was 'the most elegant' or worst of
all, tried to code as if it was an exercise in pseudo coed and object
oriented design, and got themselves into such a mess that they had to be
taken off the project altogether.

Or want to write it in some language no-one else in the group understands.

And then refuse to write it in perl because "python is superior in every
way". When told they must write it in perl, they complied with much
grumbling and some further lectures on the inelegance of perl. Then x-weeks
later when I looked at the code, about 50 lines down was a call to a
slightly hidden python script to do the interesting bits!

When I started at Imperial, we have system maintenance scripts (many
scripts, all siblings in a family of scripts that did interesting useful
tghings on a periodic basis) written in perl, python, bash, csh and I think
there was even one in haskell.

When I finished, we had everthing in perl with a common library set that
handled all the useful common stuff like DB access, opening a new file to
write and ensuring the atomic replacement of the old file (it's bad to have
the PC powered off just between truncating the password file and writing
out the new version and fsyncing it - it happened surprisingly often too)
and lots of stuff like that. Many scripts were both hugely bombproof in a
uniform way but only 20 lines long to do a 20 line job - the way it should
be...

Best of all were software engineers. People with a practical bent who
knew JUST enough about the WHOLE of a computer system to work out where
performance mattered, and were thick enough themselves to write clean
simple code that got the job done if not that elegantly, at least
understandably, and where to ask in the mathematicians to do the one
tricky algorithm they couldn't get their brains round.

Ahh. Proper engineers...

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
om...
Clive George wrote:


Or there's always the option of setting up on your own - see eg TMH. I
reckon people are getting lazier - I know I am :-) - so his business
model is moderately viable for somebody without huge ambitions but
some ability.

'Moderately viable'? Strange choice of phrase.

I can earn a very good living without much in the way of stress, so its
certainly viable. I'll never be a millionaire doing what I do, but that
wasn't the plan.

Yebbut you do seem to work at it. I wanted to avoid the impression that it
would be a free lunch.

On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 01:14:14 +0100, "Clive George"
wrote:

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
. com...
Clive George wrote:


Or there's always the option of setting up on your own - see eg TMH. I
reckon people are getting lazier - I know I am :-) - so his business
model is moderately viable for somebody without huge ambitions but
some ability.

'Moderately viable'? Strange choice of phrase.

I can earn a very good living without much in the way of stress, so its
certainly viable. I'll never be a millionaire doing what I do, but that
wasn't the plan.

Yebbut you do seem to work at it. I wanted to avoid the impression that it
would be a free lunch.


The success of a business seems to be like flying an aeroplane, either
it climbs away to sunny realms above the clouds, or it goes down.

I never cease to be amazed at the number of people who will either
take on a pub in this country at a time when the supermarkets are
selling beer at 1/3rd of the price they can get it from the brewery,
or alternatively decide with no training, no experience, no language
skills to go and open a bar in Spain. These characters are on TV every
second week, one couple I saw recently reckoned they thoroughly
researched the market before opening a bar / bacon, egg & beans cafe
in Benidorm. After all, they said they'd made a visit over there and
looked at over 20 such cafes(run by failed English couples) for sale
all on Benidorm sea front, and this one was the best.

Forgive me, but with 20+ duds for sale on one sea front wouldn't that
seem to indicate a very difficult business environment with a near
certainty of failure ?

Derek

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 14:15:52 -0700 (PDT), Owain
wrote:

On 17 Sep, 21:44, Mike P wrote:
Heh. The client site I work on has banned one of my MCSE guys from coming
to our site. He's a walking disaster area. Living proof, if any were
needed that anyone can get an MCSE or CCNA (he has that too) and still
not have a clue what they are talking about.

MCSE = Must Consult Someone Experienced
CCNA = Certified Clueless Network Assistant

And from anecdotes I've heard, people with an MSc in Nymphomation
Technology aren't much cop if their background was a general degree in
Applied Pottery.


ITYM Applied Pottery -With Dance.

Alternatively "International Hospitality Management" taught at Leeds
Metropolitan University.

Pizza - Ology to you and me, a *four year* *honours* degree course.

You couldn't make it up. BTW if you've got 2 more years to spare you
can get an MA in internat... ... ...

Derek

Clive George wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message om...
Clive George wrote:


Or there's always the option of setting up on your own - see eg
TMH. I reckon people are getting lazier - I know I am :-) - so his
business model is moderately viable for somebody without huge
ambitions but some ability.

'Moderately viable'? Strange choice of phrase.

I can earn a very good living without much in the way of stress, so
its certainly viable. I'll never be a millionaire doing what I do,
but that wasn't the plan.

Yebbut you do seem to work at it. I wanted to avoid the impression
that it would be a free lunch.

Ah.. I see. Don't you have to work at anything to make it viable? As I'm
always telling aspiring magicians "the only place success comes before work
is in a dictionary".


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Tim S gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

BTW - I don't have a CompSci degree

I do.

- I worked in the "hard way" from another numerate discipline - I wish
I had done CompSci because it would have made doing the right thing
the first time much easier in so many projects...

I wouldn't put money on that...

Well, it was just silly things like having a more formal approach,
having a pocket full of algorithms instead of having to dig through
Knuth or the internet every time I wanted to do something a little bit
interesting...

Knuth? Who or what is Knuth?
checks Wiki
Oh. Never heard of him...

Adrian wrote:
Tim S gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

BTW - I don't have a CompSci degree

I do.

- I worked in the "hard way" from another numerate discipline - I
wish I had done CompSci because it would have made doing the right
thing the first time much easier in so many projects...

I wouldn't put money on that...

Well, it was just silly things like having a more formal approach,
having a pocket full of algorithms instead of having to dig through
Knuth or the internet every time I wanted to do something a little
bit interesting...

Knuth? Who or what is Knuth?
checks Wiki
Oh. Never heard of him...

A panto star - Fairy Knuth....

I'll get me coat...




--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

"The Medway Handyman" gurgled happily,
sounding much like they were saying:

Well, it was just silly things like having a more formal approach,
having a pocket full of algorithms instead of having to dig through
Knuth or the internet every time I wanted to do something a little bit
interesting...

Knuth? Who or what is Knuth?
checks Wiki
Oh. Never heard of him...

A panto star - Fairy Knuth....

I'll get me coat...

Oh, no, you won't.

Adrian coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim S gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

BTW - I don't have a CompSci degree

I do.

- I worked in the "hard way" from another numerate discipline - I wish
I had done CompSci because it would have made doing the right thing
the first time much easier in so many projects...

I wouldn't put money on that...

Well, it was just silly things like having a more formal approach,
having a pocket full of algorithms instead of having to dig through
Knuth or the internet every time I wanted to do something a little bit
interesting...

Knuth? Who or what is Knuth?
checks Wiki
Oh. Never heard of him...

The author of a series of computer science books in 1968 onwards that are as
relevant today as they were then. Which is some achievement when you
consider how computers normally radiate obscelence!

Huge gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

BTW - I don't have a CompSci degree

I do.

Knuth? Who or what is Knuth?
checks Wiki
Oh. Never heard of him...

IncredulousYou have a CS degree and you've never heard of Knuth?/

Yup.

Clue: I'm no software engineer. Never have been. Never wanted to be.

On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 09:26:25 +0000, Adrian wrote:

Huge gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

BTW - I don't have a CompSci degree

I do.

Knuth? Who or what is Knuth?
checks Wiki
Oh. Never heard of him...

IncredulousYou have a CS degree and you've never heard of Knuth?/

Yup.

Oh dear.

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 10:06:02 +0100, Tim S wrote:

Adrian coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim S gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

BTW - I don't have a CompSci degree

I do.

- I worked in the "hard way" from another numerate discipline - I
wish I had done CompSci because it would have made doing the right
thing the first time much easier in so many projects...

I wouldn't put money on that...

Well, it was just silly things like having a more formal approach,
having a pocket full of algorithms instead of having to dig through
Knuth or the internet every time I wanted to do something a little bit
interesting...

Knuth? Who or what is Knuth?
checks Wiki
Oh. Never heard of him...

The author of a series of computer science books in 1968 onwards that
are as relevant today as they were then. Which is some achievement when
you consider how computers normally radiate obscelence!

[Looks lovingly at the trio of well thumbed volumes on the shelf beside
him] (Knuth that is!)



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

Huge gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

BTW - I don't have a CompSci degree

I do.

Knuth? Who or what is Knuth?
checks Wiki
Oh. Never heard of him...

IncredulousYou have a CS degree and you've never heard of Knuth?/

Yup.

Clue: I'm no software engineer. Never have been. Never wanted to be.

I'm a biochemist. Or at least, I was. I've heard of Knuth.

I'm very happy for you.

But I think you might find that was kinda my point. That "even" a CompSci
degree doesn't necessarily provide the full toolkit for any specific role.

If I was a software engineer, then knowing Knuth would - clearly - be
useful. I'm not. I've not written any code since I left Uni - and I
avoided it as much as possible even then.

On Sep 17, 8:34*pm, "Unbeliever" wrote:
Clive George wrote:
wrote in message
....
Have just been made redundant from my job in IT and am finding it
hard to find another.

Snipped

so his business
model is moderately viable for somebody without huge ambitions but
some ability.

ROTFL - let's list that:

1 *Huge* ambitions *- what becoming a general purpose handyman!

Which of the seven letters in the word "without" did you struggle with
at school?

MBQ

"Man at B&Q" gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

so his business model is moderately viable for somebody without huge
ambitions but some ability.

ROTFL - let's list that:

1 *Huge* ambitions Â*- what becoming a general purpose handyman!

Which of the seven letters in the word "without" did you struggle with
at school?

Just the last three, I suspect.

Adrian wrote:
Huge gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

BTW - I don't have a CompSci degree

I do.

Knuth? Who or what is Knuth?
checks Wiki
Oh. Never heard of him...

IncredulousYou have a CS degree and you've never heard of Knuth?/

Yup.

Clue: I'm no software engineer. Never have been. Never wanted to be.

I'm a biochemist. Or at least, I was. I've heard of Knuth.

I'm very happy for you.

But I think you might find that was kinda my point. That "even" a CompSci
degree doesn't necessarily provide the full toolkit for any specific role.

If I was a software engineer, then knowing Knuth would - clearly - be
useful. I'm not. I've not written any code since I left Uni - and I
avoided it as much as possible even then.

Actually I used to habve Knuths 'fundamental algorithms' Complete
garbage. Sort of 1960 style 'this is what a computer is'.

I remember reading about 'co-routines' and wondering WTF he was on
about. I finally figured it was a dumb theoreticians way of describing
context switching. IIRC.

Anyway in all my time writing code, I cant say Knuth was ever useful at all.

Tim S wrote:
Adrian coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim S gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

BTW - I don't have a CompSci degree
I do.
- I worked in the "hard way" from another numerate discipline - I wish
I had done CompSci because it would have made doing the right thing
the first time much easier in so many projects...
I wouldn't put money on that...
Well, it was just silly things like having a more formal approach,
having a pocket full of algorithms instead of having to dig through
Knuth or the internet every time I wanted to do something a little bit
interesting...
Knuth? Who or what is Knuth?
checks Wiki
Oh. Never heard of him...

The author of a series of computer science books in 1968 onwards that are as
relevant today as they were then. Which is some achievement when you
consider how computers normally radiate obscelence!

Indeed. They weren't really relevant then, and they aren't now!

IMHO ;-)

Seriously, the books on software engineering were far more appropriate.

The Natural Philosopher coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim S wrote:
Adrian coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim S gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

BTW - I don't have a CompSci degree
I do.
- I worked in the "hard way" from another numerate discipline - I
wish I had done CompSci because it would have made doing the right
thing the first time much easier in so many projects...
I wouldn't put money on that...
Well, it was just silly things like having a more formal approach,
having a pocket full of algorithms instead of having to dig through
Knuth or the internet every time I wanted to do something a little bit
interesting...
Knuth? Who or what is Knuth?
checks Wiki
Oh. Never heard of him...

The author of a series of computer science books in 1968 onwards that are
as relevant today as they were then. Which is some achievement when you
consider how computers normally radiate obscelence!

Indeed. They weren't really relevant then, and they aren't now!

IMHO ;-)

Seriously, the books on software engineering were far more appropriate.

If you need a sorting algorithm or a funky tree algorithm to name but a few,
Knuth is extremely useful IMO.

Owain coughed up some electrons that declared:

On 18 Sep, 10:31, Bob Eager wrote:
[Looks lovingly at the trio of well thumbed volumes on the shelf beside
him] (Knuth that is!)

Into latex, are you?



SWMBO did her PhD thesis in LaTeX. It was harder to learn but a damn sight
more stable than Word. I spent quite some time helping another friend
recover the formatting on their PhD thesis in Word everytime it collapsed
in a heap of crap.

LaTeX probably took nearly as much effort but it allowed the effort to be
put in early rather than in a blind panic 30 minutes before a copy needed
to be printed with revisions!

Personally, IME the print quality from LaTeX beats Word buy miles...

Owain gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

IncredulousYou have a CS degree and you've never heard of Knuth?/

Yup.
Clue: I'm no software engineer. Never have been. Never wanted to be.

Erm. What did you write your dissertation with? Word?

Bit further back than that. Can't remember what the word processor was
called on the Atari ST - but, yes, my final year project did focus on the
ergonomics of word processor user interfaces, as it happens. A lucky
guess on your part, I suspect. Congratulations.

Tim S wrote:
The Natural Philosopher coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim S wrote:
Adrian coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim S gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

BTW - I don't have a CompSci degree
I do.
- I worked in the "hard way" from another numerate discipline - I
wish I had done CompSci because it would have made doing the right
thing the first time much easier in so many projects...
I wouldn't put money on that...
Well, it was just silly things like having a more formal approach,
having a pocket full of algorithms instead of having to dig through
Knuth or the internet every time I wanted to do something a little bit
interesting...
Knuth? Who or what is Knuth?
checks Wiki
Oh. Never heard of him...
The author of a series of computer science books in 1968 onwards that are
as relevant today as they were then. Which is some achievement when you
consider how computers normally radiate obscelence!
Indeed. They weren't really relevant then, and they aren't now!

IMHO ;-)

Seriously, the books on software engineering were far more appropriate.

If you need a sorting algorithm or a funky tree algorithm to name but a few,
Knuth is extremely useful IMO.

Most orf those are already written and live in your system libraries.

The Natural Philosopher coughed up some electrons that declared:

If you need a sorting algorithm or a funky tree algorithm to name but a
few, Knuth is extremely useful IMO.

Most orf those are already written and live in your system libraries.

Someone has to write the libraries

"Tim S" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher coughed up some electrons that declared:

The phsicists and scientists thought about it first THEN rippoed off te
code, took a bit longer and produced a better result.

Spooky - that's what I do...

When I was coding in the early '80s there wasn't any code to rip off.
We had to do it from scratch.
The code you rip off is probably the stuff we wrote.

The best software designer/writer I knew at the time was a zoologist BTW.
When we (GEC) were recruiting we didn't care what degree people had as long
as they could think.
Even then a lot of graduates couldn't think.
I did notice the low regard for software degrees though.
The largest group had degrees in physics.


We were a bit atypical though as we also designed the hardware and would
sometimes change the hardware as it was easier than changing the software.

We also did things like designing in hardware to trace execution of code so
we could see what was happening without having to single step stuff (not
much use on multiprocessor real time systems).