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"Adrian" wrote in message
...
Tim S gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

BTW - I don't have a CompSci degree


I do.


- I worked in the "hard way" from another numerate discipline - I wish
I had done CompSci because it would have made doing the right thing
the first time much easier in so many projects...


I wouldn't put money on that...


Well, it was just silly things like having a more formal approach,
having a pocket full of algorithms instead of having to dig through
Knuth or the internet every time I wanted to do something a little bit
interesting...


Knuth? Who or what is Knuth?
checks Wiki
Oh. Never heard of him...


Too many people haven't :-(


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dennis@home coughed up some electrons that declared:



"Tim S" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher coughed up some electrons that declared:

The phsicists and scientists thought about it first THEN rippoed off te
code, took a bit longer and produced a better result.


Spooky - that's what I do...


When I was coding in the early '80s there wasn't any code to rip off.
We had to do it from scratch.
The code you rip off is probably the stuff we wrote.


Only if you write open source software.

The best software designer/writer I knew at the time was a zoologist BTW.
When we (GEC) were recruiting we didn't care what degree people had as
long as they could think.
Even then a lot of graduates couldn't think.
I did notice the low regard for software degrees though.
The largest group had degrees in physics.


We were a bit atypical though as we also designed the hardware and would
sometimes change the hardware as it was easier than changing the software.

We also did things like designing in hardware to trace execution of code
so we could see what was happening without having to single step stuff
(not much use on multiprocessor real time systems).


Cool
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Tim S wrote:
The Natural Philosopher coughed up some electrons that declared:

If you need a sorting algorithm or a funky tree algorithm to name but a
few, Knuth is extremely useful IMO.

Most orf those are already written and live in your system libraries.


Someone has to write the libraries

Not any more..

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The Natural Philosopher coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim S wrote:
The Natural Philosopher coughed up some electrons that declared:

If you need a sorting algorithm or a funky tree algorithm to name but a
few, Knuth is extremely useful IMO.
Most orf those are already written and live in your system libraries.


Someone has to write the libraries

Not any more..


They do if a new language is developed.

Or if those libraries depend on so many other libraries or were written in a
fat or OO framework that makes it impractical to port to a tiny
architechture like an AVR or PIC.
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Owain gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

Erm. What did you write your dissertation with? Word?


Bit further back than that. Can't remember what the word processor was
called on the Atari ST - but, yes, my final year project did focus on
the ergonomics of word processor user interfaces, as it happens. A
lucky guess on your part, I suspect. Congratulations.


I remember 1st Word Plus on the Atari (used it in 1st year undergrad).
IIRC it had the endearing habit of, when renumbering footnotes meant
footnote 10 became footnote 9, leaving a superfluous space in front of
the 9.

Before that I used WordStar at college and then at uni I had to write my
essays in vecce on the VAX before I bought my Atari. I can remember my
excitement at getting a computer with half a megabyte of memory when the
VAXen only had 4 or 6.

And I had a printer - Star LC-10. *That* was the luxury, there were
quite a few BBC Micros on the corridor in hall, but not many people had
printers.


God, yes - I had an LC-10, too. I remember the HP Deskjet 500 coming out
- major lust object, an INKJET! And so cheap! Only £500...

And pricing up a PC - oooh, I could almost stretch to a 386SX, if I
specced it up carefully - only about £1500.

Mind you, the first computer we had at home was a Sinclair, of course.
Not a Speccy. Not even a ZX81. A ZX80... Then a Sharp MZ-80K. Think
they're still in my mother's loft somewhere.


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Tim S wrote:

(hint IBM Hursley don't recruit people with Applied Javascript and
Flash Wibbling)


Probably not, but we do have plenty of people with non-CS degrees around
the place. I know an astronomer and an agricultural chemist, and I've
heard tell that somewhere around the place is a guy with a postgraduate
qualification in Crustacean Pharmacology (prescribing drugs to lobsters?).

Mostly Maths, Physics and CS though, it's true.

Pete
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Pete Verdon d gurgled
happily, sounding much like they were saying:

and I've heard tell that somewhere around the place is a guy with a
postgraduate qualification in Crustacean Pharmacology


I can't be the only one who initially read that as Crustacean Psychology.
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Adrian wrote:
Pete Verdon d gurgled
happily, sounding much like they were saying:

and I've heard tell that somewhere around the place is a guy with a
postgraduate qualification in Crustacean Pharmacology


I can't be the only one who initially read that as Crustacean Psychology.


...sit on the couch whilst I murmur into your shell-like..
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Owain gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

Between the LC10 and the IBM4019 I had a Panasonic daisywheel typewriter
with an external parallel i/f adapter. WordPerfect were nice enough to
write me a custom printer driver.


Migawd, can you imagine that these days...?
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In article ,
writes:
Have just been made redundant from my job in IT and am finding it hard
to find another.

Even the 1st line and 2nd line jobs now want you to have an MCSE.

One option is to go and get an MCSE, but then there's the lack of a
degree, and the lack of 3 years feeding and caring for a server farm
which aren't so easily rectified.

I also suspect the lack of interest in me may be due to the recruiters
being able to work out my age from the fact I took O'Levels rather
than GCSEs


I've done lots of IT recruiting as a manager, so I'll tell
you what's important to me when looking for someone. It might
help you with your technique if you know what's going on behind
the scenes. However, I'll warn that most recruiters are thoroughly
incompetent, never having been trained to do it, and the successful
candidate is often little more than a random choice because the
employer doesn't know how to select the best candidate.
(I'll also add that in my current role I don't do recruiting,
before people start pointlessly sending me CVs...)

I create a job description, which will (amongst other things) list
the skills required for the role and the level of each skill.
The skills list is passed to agencies to match against the people
they have on their books. From that I get a list of CV's, in theory
filtered against my requirements, but in practice about 1 in 10 of
the CV's I get from most agencies really do match. I take each CV
and score it on a spreadsheet against each skill, weighted so the
mandatory skills get higher scores than desirable skills. I'll aim
to look for about 4 people with the best scores to interview, but
in practice I often don't actually find that many and have to
interview fewer.

At this point I'll say that qualifications almost never feature on
my list of requirements. I know that's unusual because agencies
sometimes come back and ask if I missed them off accidentally.
However, I'm usually looking for experienced staff, and hence I
only care about their experience. (If I'm looking for inexperienced
staff, such as to bring in to a graduate recruitment program or a
sandwich course year, then that's different, but not relevant here.)

So, for candidates which get invited to interview, there are two
things I'm looking for. Most important -- am I sure they will fit
in to the existing team and keep it working smoothly? There's no
way to gleen this from a CV, it's all down to how they come across
at interview, and I will put specific questions designed to see
how they have worked in teams in the past. This is much more
important to me than their skills; missing skills can usually be
learned, but hiring someone with the wrong personality to fit in
can't be fixed. Secondly, do they have the skills they claimed on
their CV. IME, about 1 in 3 interviewees will make it past both
these checks, and I only make an offer if someone does. The cost
of recruiting the wrong person is enormous; it's very many times
their salary, so that's a mistake you need to avoid as a recruiter.
I will sometimes do a second interview (although it's not always
necessary if the process is followed correctly), and I always make
sure someone in the team also interviews a final candidate (and of
course HR will interview them too in most companies).

So, now you know how it works, what can you do?

You need a well written CV - there's plenty of advice around on
how to do that. Key things - make sure you include all the
keywords which identify your skills. These are sometimes searched
for by computer. Make sure your CV is concise and to the point,
with the key bits up front. Give your CV to someone to read, and
without telling them in advance, stop them after 90 seconds. How
far did they get? Have they got a good grasp of your key skills,
or have they only discovered you were born in London and went to
a junior school in Wales? Do they know what _you_ did (important)
or what the company made (usually irrelevant). Don't lie on your
CV - you won't believe how obvious that is at interview (if the
interviewer knows what they're doing). If you have a long career,
don't try and cram in everything you've done. More recent
experience is more important, plus things that are particularly
relevant to the job you're applying for (you don't necessarily
use the same CV for all job applications).

The CV is really just to get you to interview. There's an
important method for short circuiting this though, and that's
networking - making use of your network of friends and former
work colleagues. As a recruiter, a personal recommendation is
worth far more than any CV, so get linked to your former
colleagues through services such as linkedin.com so you don't
lose contact. It's often stated that most successful applicants
made the initial approach through their network, not through
agencies. (You still need just as good a CV though.)


--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]


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Andrew Gabriel wrote:

The CV is really just to get you to interview. There's an
important method for short circuiting this though, and that's
networking - making use of your network of friends and former
work colleagues. As a recruiter, a personal recommendation is
worth far more than any CV, so get linked to your former
colleagues through services such as linkedin.com so you don't
lose contact. It's often stated that most successful applicants
made the initial approach through their network, not through
agencies. (You still need just as good a CV though.)


One other very important thing - have someone else proof-read it for
you, and make sure there are no errors in either your grammar or your
spelling. I've sifted through thousands of CVs, and the surest way to
have yours binned, is lack of attention to detail. Anyone who can't be
bothered to get his CV right, isn't likely to be careful and precise in
the execution of his duties.
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Adrian wrote:
Owain gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

Between the LC10 and the IBM4019 I had a Panasonic daisywheel typewriter
with an external parallel i/f adapter. WordPerfect were nice enough to
write me a custom printer driver.


Migawd, can you imagine that these days...?


Don't need to: lived through them. Wrote the odd driver too..
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In message , "dennis@home"
writes


"Tim S" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher coughed up some electrons that declared:

The phsicists and scientists thought about it first THEN rippoed off te
code, took a bit longer and produced a better result.


Spooky - that's what I do...


When I was coding in the early '80s there wasn't any code to rip off.
We had to do it from scratch.
The code you rip off is probably the stuff we wrote.


You're a laugh a minute dennis


The best software designer/writer I knew at the time was a zoologist BTW.
When we (GEC) were recruiting we didn't care what degree people had as
long as they could think.


Unless it was a Ph.D

Even then a lot of graduates couldn't think.
I did notice the low regard for software degrees though.
The largest group had degrees in physics.


We're the creme de la creme denboi



We were a bit atypical though as we also designed the hardware and
would sometimes change the hardware as it was easier than changing the
software.

We also did things like designing in hardware to trace execution of
code so we could see what was happening without having to single step
stuff (not much use on multiprocessor real time systems).


Like most small early development teams denboi

--
geoff
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Adrian wrote:
Huge gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

BTW - I don't have a CompSci degree


I do.


Knuth? Who or what is Knuth?
checks Wiki
Oh. Never heard of him...


IncredulousYou have a CS degree and you've never heard of Knuth?/


Yup.

Clue: I'm no software engineer. Never have been. Never wanted to be.


Just to chip in late - what exactly were you doing on your compsci
degree that didn't involve _any_ software engineering?

I'd be fascinated to know where it was. Not the same place as Bob or
Tim, I imagine.

Andy
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Andy Champ gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

Knuth? Who or what is Knuth?
checks Wiki
Oh. Never heard of him...


IncredulousYou have a CS degree and you've never heard of Knuth?/


Yup.

Clue: I'm no software engineer. Never have been. Never wanted to be.


Just to chip in late - what exactly were you doing on your compsci
degree that didn't involve _any_ software engineering?


There is _quite_ a lot more to "Computer Science" than being a code-
monkey, of course. dives for cover, as code-monkeys throw bananas...

Sure, there was some SE in the first two years, and this was 20yrs ago,
but I don't recall Knuth's name even vaguely. Mebbe we did cover him, and
I've just forgotten. shrug

When it came to final year, which is where he'd probably have come in, we
chose what to study. I went down the Info Systems Mgmt & HCI/UI routes.

I'd be fascinated to know where it was.


Greenwich.


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On Sun, 20 Sep 2009 21:05:38 +0000, Adrian wrote:

Andy Champ gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

Knuth? Who or what is Knuth?
checks Wiki
Oh. Never heard of him...


IncredulousYou have a CS degree and you've never heard of Knuth?/


Yup.

Clue: I'm no software engineer. Never have been. Never wanted to be.


Just to chip in late - what exactly were you doing on your compsci
degree that didn't involve _any_ software engineering?


There is _quite_ a lot more to "Computer Science" than being a code-
monkey, of course. dives for cover, as code-monkeys throw bananas...

Sure, there was some SE in the first two years, and this was 20yrs ago,
but I don't recall Knuth's name even vaguely. Mebbe we did cover him,
and I've just forgotten. shrug

When it came to final year, which is where he'd probably have come in,
we chose what to study. I went down the Info Systems Mgmt & HCI/UI
routes.

I'd be fascinated to know where it was.


Greenwich.


I couldn't possibly comment.



--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

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We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Unbeliever"
saying something like:

ROTFL - let's list that:


****, but you are a tedious ****.
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