Have just been made redundant from my job in IT and am finding it hard
to find another.

Even the 1st line and 2nd line jobs now want you to have an MCSE.

One option is to go and get an MCSE, but then there's the lack of a
degree, and the lack of 3 years feeding and caring for a server farm
which aren't so easily rectified.

I also suspect the lack of interest in me may be due to the recruiters
being able to work out my age from the fact I took O'Levels rather
than GCSEs

I do have an interest in audio (PA) and obviously D-I-Y.

Anyone any suggestions for a good line of work to be getting into?

wrote in message
...
Have just been made redundant from my job in IT and am finding it hard
to find another.


Look harder then, it will not be handed to you!

Even the 1st line and 2nd line jobs now want you to have an MCSE.


It sorts out the hobbyist from someone who can do the work.

One option is to go and get an MCSE, but then there's the lack of a
degree,

Not always required, less companies are taking those with a degree
as it means nothing now. It is not a substitute for experience and
skill - so employers go for that now instead.
Who wants someone with a degree that they have to spend lots of
money on training them to do the job!

and the lack of 3 years feeding and caring for a server farm
which aren't so easily rectified.


No idea what you are talking about or how it applies.

I also suspect the lack of interest in me may be due to the recruiters
being able to work out my age from the fact I took O'Levels rather
than GCSEs


I doubt it, it's just that you don't have the required expertise or
decent references from previous employers. They want experience
so you need to sell yourself more.

I do have an interest in audio (PA) and obviously D-I-Y.


Good, I like washing my car and giving it a showroom shine
and also growing sweetcorn.

Anyone any suggestions for a good line of work to be getting into?

No, not really. Most people take what they can - something they
can use experience and skills in.

Roger wrote:
wrote in message

I do have an interest in audio (PA) and obviously D-I-Y.


Good, I like washing my car and giving it a showroom shine
and also growing sweetcorn.

FWIW 'Roger' is a known troublesome ******(*) that trolls on the UK
newsgroups mouthing disinformation and being generally nasty, mostly to
receive a response. In his 'answers' to your thread (and others), you'll
notice his usenet behavior mostly matches that of a aggressive
narcissist psychopath. He really hasn't any concern in your well-being.

* was recently posting as Clive, has been the 'Tiscali Idiot' for
somewhat longer.

--
Adrian C

"Roger" gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

Even the 1st line and 2nd line jobs now want you to have an MCSE.

It sorts out the hobbyist from someone who can do the work.

Indeed. Those who can actually do the work haven't bothered to waste the
time and effort on such a long devalued, utter waste-of-space
"qualification".

On 17/09/09 18:41, Adrian wrote:
gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

Even the 1st line and 2nd line jobs now want you to have an MCSE.

It sorts out the hobbyist from someone who can do the work.

Indeed. Those who can actually do the work haven't bothered to waste the
time and effort on such a long devalued, utter waste-of-space
"qualification".

+1

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 17:41:00 +0000, Adrian wrote:

"Roger" gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

Even the 1st line and 2nd line jobs now want you to have an MCSE.

It sorts out the hobbyist from someone who can do the work.

Indeed. Those who can actually do the work haven't bothered to waste the
time and effort on such a long devalued, utter waste-of-space
"qualification".

Heh. The client site I work on has banned one of my MCSE guys from coming
to our site. He's a walking disaster area. Living proof, if any were
needed that anyone can get an MCSE or CCNA (he has that too) and still
not have a clue what they are talking about.

Mike P

gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

I also suspect the lack of interest in me may be due to the recruiters
being able to work out my age from the fact I took O'Levels rather than
GCSEs

Unlikely - I took O-levels, rather than GCSEs, and am still a couple of
years off turning 40.

Anyway - if you're being complete and honest about your employment
history, they'll surely have a reasonable inkling that you're not in your
early 20s...

wrote in message
...
Have just been made redundant from my job in IT and am finding it hard
to find another.

Even the 1st line and 2nd line jobs now want you to have an MCSE.

One option is to go and get an MCSE, but then there's the lack of a
degree, and the lack of 3 years feeding and caring for a server farm
which aren't so easily rectified.

Support jobs may not need degrees, but if you want to do professional stuff
people will filter for qualifications and bin your application without
looking at it if there's nothing.

I also suspect the lack of interest in me may be due to the recruiters
being able to work out my age from the fact I took O'Levels rather
than GCSEs

If you're good, none of this will be relevant. But I've no idea if you're
any good. Do you have drive, nous, etc? Or did you just do what you were
told?

Are you looking for lots of money? Do you have a track record which supports
that claim?

Where in the country are you?

3 years off to do a degree isn't a bad idea right now if you're up to it and
want to turn more professional in IT.

Or there's always the option of setting up on your own - see eg TMH. I
reckon people are getting lazier - I know I am :-) - so his business model
is moderately viable for somebody without huge ambitions but some ability.

On 17/09/09 19:40, Clive George wrote:

there's always the option of setting up on your own - see eg TMH.
his business model
is moderately viable for somebody without huge ambitions but some ability.

Did you forget to prefix that with "with all due respect"? :-P

Clive George wrote:


Or there's always the option of setting up on your own - see eg TMH. I
reckon people are getting lazier - I know I am :-) - so his business
model is moderately viable for somebody without huge ambitions but
some ability.

'Moderately viable'? Strange choice of phrase.

I can earn a very good living without much in the way of stress, so its
certainly viable. I'll never be a millionaire doing what I do, but that
wasn't the plan.

I feel a new thread coming on :-)


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
om...
Clive George wrote:


Or there's always the option of setting up on your own - see eg TMH. I
reckon people are getting lazier - I know I am :-) - so his business
model is moderately viable for somebody without huge ambitions but
some ability.

'Moderately viable'? Strange choice of phrase.

I can earn a very good living without much in the way of stress, so its
certainly viable. I'll never be a millionaire doing what I do, but that
wasn't the plan.

Yebbut you do seem to work at it. I wanted to avoid the impression that it
would be a free lunch.

On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 01:14:14 +0100, "Clive George"
wrote:

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
. com...
Clive George wrote:


Or there's always the option of setting up on your own - see eg TMH. I
reckon people are getting lazier - I know I am :-) - so his business
model is moderately viable for somebody without huge ambitions but
some ability.

'Moderately viable'? Strange choice of phrase.

I can earn a very good living without much in the way of stress, so its
certainly viable. I'll never be a millionaire doing what I do, but that
wasn't the plan.

Yebbut you do seem to work at it. I wanted to avoid the impression that it
would be a free lunch.


The success of a business seems to be like flying an aeroplane, either
it climbs away to sunny realms above the clouds, or it goes down.

I never cease to be amazed at the number of people who will either
take on a pub in this country at a time when the supermarkets are
selling beer at 1/3rd of the price they can get it from the brewery,
or alternatively decide with no training, no experience, no language
skills to go and open a bar in Spain. These characters are on TV every
second week, one couple I saw recently reckoned they thoroughly
researched the market before opening a bar / bacon, egg & beans cafe
in Benidorm. After all, they said they'd made a visit over there and
looked at over 20 such cafes(run by failed English couples) for sale
all on Benidorm sea front, and this one was the best.

Forgive me, but with 20+ duds for sale on one sea front wouldn't that
seem to indicate a very difficult business environment with a near
certainty of failure ?

Derek

Clive George wrote:
"The Medway Handyman" wrote in
message om...
Clive George wrote:


Or there's always the option of setting up on your own - see eg
TMH. I reckon people are getting lazier - I know I am :-) - so his
business model is moderately viable for somebody without huge
ambitions but some ability.

'Moderately viable'? Strange choice of phrase.

I can earn a very good living without much in the way of stress, so
its certainly viable. I'll never be a millionaire doing what I do,
but that wasn't the plan.

Yebbut you do seem to work at it. I wanted to avoid the impression
that it would be a free lunch.

Ah.. I see. Don't you have to work at anything to make it viable? As I'm
always telling aspiring magicians "the only place success comes before work
is in a dictionary".


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Clive George wrote:
wrote in message
...
Have just been made redundant from my job in IT and am finding it
hard to find another.

Snipped

so his business
model is moderately viable for somebody without huge ambitions but
some ability.

ROTFL - let's list that:

1 *Huge* ambitions - what becoming a general purpose handyman!
2 Some ability - in what? How to go to a job, look at it, post on this
group asking how can it to be done and then take the **** out of his
customer - oh, and the brag how good *he* is!

Now if you'd have said he'd gone from a garden snail catcher to the heady
levels of a degree and picked up a first in bull**** and belligerence
well....

Unbeliever wrote:
Clive George wrote:
wrote in message
...
Have just been made redundant from my job in IT and am finding it
hard to find another.

Snipped

so his business
model is moderately viable for somebody without huge ambitions but
some ability.

ROTFL - let's list that:

Its that ****wit Tanner OP again, pretending (badly) to be someone else.

1 *Huge* ambitions - what becoming a general purpose handyman!

I did want to become a foremen with a council house in Caerphilly, but I
lacked the ambition & drive.

2 Some ability - in what? How to go to a job, look at it, post on
this group asking how can it to be done and then take the **** out of
his customer - oh, and the brag how good *he* is!

We've covered all this before **** for brains. You are now simply boring.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Sep 17, 8:34*pm, "Unbeliever" wrote:
Clive George wrote:
wrote in message
....
Have just been made redundant from my job in IT and am finding it
hard to find another.

Snipped

so his business
model is moderately viable for somebody without huge ambitions but
some ability.

ROTFL - let's list that:

1 *Huge* ambitions *- what becoming a general purpose handyman!

Which of the seven letters in the word "without" did you struggle with
at school?

MBQ

"Man at B&Q" gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying:

so his business model is moderately viable for somebody without huge
ambitions but some ability.

ROTFL - let's list that:

1 *Huge* ambitions Â*- what becoming a general purpose handyman!

Which of the seven letters in the word "without" did you struggle with
at school?

Just the last three, I suspect.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Unbeliever"
saying something like:

ROTFL - let's list that:

****, but you are a tedious ****.

Clive George coughed up some electrons that declared:


3 years off to do a degree isn't a bad idea right now if you're up to it
and want to turn more professional in IT.

And doing a proper Computer Science degree IMO will cut more sway than a
Computer Technology degree. The former is to the latter as Applied
Mathematics/Physics is to Vehicle Servicing.

BTW - I don't have a CompSci degree - I worked in the "hard way" from
another numerate discipline - I wish I had done CompSci because it would
have made doing the right thing the first time much easier in so many
projects...

A CT degree will probably aid in getting a basic sysadmin or web-dude job. A
CompSci degree leaves that option intact (as well as helping to get a
sysadmin job in a fun higher class university) and opens up doing more
novel stuff too like R&D for small or big companies (hint IBM Hursley don't
recruit people with Applied Javascript and Flash Wibbling).

OTOH, my last (small) company was far more interested in aptitude. In fact
one of the new directors started there yonks ago on work experience or
something.

Tim S gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

And doing a proper Computer Science degree IMO will cut more sway than a
Computer Technology degree. The former is to the latter as Applied
Mathematics/Physics is to Vehicle Servicing.

BTW - I don't have a CompSci degree

I do.

- I worked in the "hard way" from another numerate discipline - I wish
I had done CompSci because it would have made doing the right thing the
first time much easier in so many projects...

I wouldn't put money on that...

Adrian coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim S gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

And doing a proper Computer Science degree IMO will cut more sway than a
Computer Technology degree. The former is to the latter as Applied
Mathematics/Physics is to Vehicle Servicing.

BTW - I don't have a CompSci degree

I do.

- I worked in the "hard way" from another numerate discipline - I wish
I had done CompSci because it would have made doing the right thing the
first time much easier in so many projects...

I wouldn't put money on that...

Well, it was just silly things like having a more formal approach, having a
pocket full of algorithms instead of having to dig through Knuth or the
internet every time I wanted to do something a little bit interesting...

Tim S wrote:
Adrian coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim S gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

And doing a proper Computer Science degree IMO will cut more sway than a
Computer Technology degree. The former is to the latter as Applied
Mathematics/Physics is to Vehicle Servicing.

BTW - I don't have a CompSci degree
I do.

- I worked in the "hard way" from another numerate discipline - I wish
I had done CompSci because it would have made doing the right thing the
first time much easier in so many projects...
I wouldn't put money on that...

Well, it was just silly things like having a more formal approach, having a
pocket full of algorithms instead of having to dig through Knuth or the
internet every time I wanted to do something a little bit interesting...

in my experience compsci were the worst coders.

Mathematicians and physicists and engineers all had them beaten into a
cocked hat before they could even open Knuth.

The engfineers gerenally fiound somoen who had doen it first, ripped off
te code and had it working first, but a bit buggy.

The phsicists and scientists thought about it first THEN rippoed off te
code, took a bit longer and produced a better result.

Te mathematicians thought about it a lot, reduced it to some sort of
equation, and eventually dio teh best job of all.

The computers scientists spent ALL the time deciding which of two
hopelessly impractical approaches was 'the most elegant' or worst of
all, tried to code as if it was an exercise in pseudo coed and object
oriented design, and got themselves into such a mess that they had to be
taken off the project altogether.

Best of all were software engineers. People with a practical bent who
knew JUST enough about the WHOLE of a computer system to work out where
performance mattered, and were thick enough themselves to write clean
simple code that got the job done if not that elegantly, at least
understandably, and where to ask in the mathematicians to do the one
tricky algorithm they couldn't get their brains round.

Tim S gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying:

BTW - I don't have a CompSci degree

I do.

- I worked in the "hard way" from another numerate discipline - I wish
I had done CompSci because it would have made doing the right thing
the first time much easier in so many projects...

I wouldn't put money on that...

Well, it was just silly things like having a more formal approach,
having a pocket full of algorithms instead of having to dig through
Knuth or the internet every time I wanted to do something a little bit
interesting...

Knuth? Who or what is Knuth?
checks Wiki
Oh. Never heard of him...

Tim S wrote:

(hint IBM Hursley don't recruit people with Applied Javascript and
Flash Wibbling)

Probably not, but we do have plenty of people with non-CS degrees around
the place. I know an astronomer and an agricultural chemist, and I've
heard tell that somewhere around the place is a guy with a postgraduate
qualification in Crustacean Pharmacology (prescribing drugs to lobsters?).

Mostly Maths, Physics and CS though, it's true.

Pete

Pete Verdon d gurgled
happily, sounding much like they were saying:

and I've heard tell that somewhere around the place is a guy with a
postgraduate qualification in Crustacean Pharmacology

I can't be the only one who initially read that as Crustacean Psychology.

Adrian wrote:
Pete Verdon d gurgled
happily, sounding much like they were saying:

and I've heard tell that somewhere around the place is a guy with a
postgraduate qualification in Crustacean Pharmacology

I can't be the only one who initially read that as Crustacean Psychology.

...sit on the couch whilst I murmur into your shell-like..

In message
,
writes
Have just been made redundant from my job in IT and am finding it hard
to find another.

Even the 1st line and 2nd line jobs now want you to have an MCSE.

One option is to go and get an MCSE, but then there's the lack of a
degree, and the lack of 3 years feeding and caring for a server farm
which aren't so easily rectified.

I also suspect the lack of interest in me may be due to the recruiters
being able to work out my age from the fact I took O'Levels rather
than GCSEs

I do have an interest in audio (PA) and obviously D-I-Y.

Anyone any suggestions for a good line of work to be getting into?

Plumber


--
geoff

In article ,
writes:
Have just been made redundant from my job in IT and am finding it hard
to find another.

Even the 1st line and 2nd line jobs now want you to have an MCSE.

One option is to go and get an MCSE, but then there's the lack of a
degree, and the lack of 3 years feeding and caring for a server farm
which aren't so easily rectified.

I also suspect the lack of interest in me may be due to the recruiters
being able to work out my age from the fact I took O'Levels rather
than GCSEs

I've done lots of IT recruiting as a manager, so I'll tell
you what's important to me when looking for someone. It might
help you with your technique if you know what's going on behind
the scenes. However, I'll warn that most recruiters are thoroughly
incompetent, never having been trained to do it, and the successful
candidate is often little more than a random choice because the
employer doesn't know how to select the best candidate.
(I'll also add that in my current role I don't do recruiting,
before people start pointlessly sending me CVs...)

I create a job description, which will (amongst other things) list
the skills required for the role and the level of each skill.
The skills list is passed to agencies to match against the people
they have on their books. From that I get a list of CV's, in theory
filtered against my requirements, but in practice about 1 in 10 of
the CV's I get from most agencies really do match. I take each CV
and score it on a spreadsheet against each skill, weighted so the
mandatory skills get higher scores than desirable skills. I'll aim
to look for about 4 people with the best scores to interview, but
in practice I often don't actually find that many and have to
interview fewer.

At this point I'll say that qualifications almost never feature on
my list of requirements. I know that's unusual because agencies
sometimes come back and ask if I missed them off accidentally.
However, I'm usually looking for experienced staff, and hence I
only care about their experience. (If I'm looking for inexperienced
staff, such as to bring in to a graduate recruitment program or a
sandwich course year, then that's different, but not relevant here.)

So, for candidates which get invited to interview, there are two
things I'm looking for. Most important -- am I sure they will fit
in to the existing team and keep it working smoothly? There's no
way to gleen this from a CV, it's all down to how they come across
at interview, and I will put specific questions designed to see
how they have worked in teams in the past. This is much more
important to me than their skills; missing skills can usually be
learned, but hiring someone with the wrong personality to fit in
can't be fixed. Secondly, do they have the skills they claimed on
their CV. IME, about 1 in 3 interviewees will make it past both
these checks, and I only make an offer if someone does. The cost
of recruiting the wrong person is enormous; it's very many times
their salary, so that's a mistake you need to avoid as a recruiter.
I will sometimes do a second interview (although it's not always
necessary if the process is followed correctly), and I always make
sure someone in the team also interviews a final candidate (and of
course HR will interview them too in most companies).

So, now you know how it works, what can you do?

You need a well written CV - there's plenty of advice around on
how to do that. Key things - make sure you include all the
keywords which identify your skills. These are sometimes searched
for by computer. Make sure your CV is concise and to the point,
with the key bits up front. Give your CV to someone to read, and
without telling them in advance, stop them after 90 seconds. How
far did they get? Have they got a good grasp of your key skills,
or have they only discovered you were born in London and went to
a junior school in Wales? Do they know what _you_ did (important)
or what the company made (usually irrelevant). Don't lie on your
CV - you won't believe how obvious that is at interview (if the
interviewer knows what they're doing). If you have a long career,
don't try and cram in everything you've done. More recent
experience is more important, plus things that are particularly
relevant to the job you're applying for (you don't necessarily
use the same CV for all job applications).

The CV is really just to get you to interview. There's an
important method for short circuiting this though, and that's
networking - making use of your network of friends and former
work colleagues. As a recruiter, a personal recommendation is
worth far more than any CV, so get linked to your former
colleagues through services such as linkedin.com so you don't
lose contact. It's often stated that most successful applicants
made the initial approach through their network, not through
agencies. (You still need just as good a CV though.)


--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

The CV is really just to get you to interview. There's an
important method for short circuiting this though, and that's
networking - making use of your network of friends and former
work colleagues. As a recruiter, a personal recommendation is
worth far more than any CV, so get linked to your former
colleagues through services such as linkedin.com so you don't
lose contact. It's often stated that most successful applicants
made the initial approach through their network, not through
agencies. (You still need just as good a CV though.)


One other very important thing - have someone else proof-read it for
you, and make sure there are no errors in either your grammar or your
spelling. I've sifted through thousands of CVs, and the surest way to
have yours binned, is lack of attention to detail. Anyone who can't be
bothered to get his CV right, isn't likely to be careful and precise in
the execution of his duties.