We are extending the floor tiles up the wall. Question - can the same
tile cement be used on the wall as was used on the floor or is a
different product - i.e. something a bit more "sticky" required for
fixing the "floor" tiles up a wall? As they are floor tiles they are a
little thicker and heavier than normal wall tiles. Any advice please?

--
David in Normandy.
To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the
subject line, or it will be automatically deleted
by a filter and not reach my inbox.

David in Normandy wrote:
We are extending the floor tiles up the wall. Question - can the same
tile cement be used on the wall as was used on the floor or is a
different product - i.e. something a bit more "sticky" required for
fixing the "floor" tiles up a wall? As they are floor tiles they are a
little thicker and heavier than normal wall tiles. Any advice please?


I forgot to add that this is in the bathroom and the walls are normal
plasterboard (not green) but treated with several coats of PVA to seal them.

--
David in Normandy.
To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the
subject line, or it will be automatically deleted
by a filter and not reach my inbox.

David in Normandy wrote:
We are extending the floor tiles up the wall. Question - can the same
tile cement be used on the wall as was used on the floor or is a
different product - i.e. something a bit more "sticky" required for
fixing the "floor" tiles up a wall? As they are floor tiles they are a
little thicker and heavier than normal wall tiles. Any advice please?


In view of the heavier tiles, I'd use a wall adhesive, with the larger
comb spreader to give a bit more depth. The floor adhesives I've used
are too dense and heavy for walls, high cement content I think.

"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
om...
David in Normandy wrote:
We are extending the floor tiles up the wall. Question - can the same
tile cement be used on the wall as was used on the floor or is a
different product - i.e. something a bit more "sticky" required for
fixing the "floor" tiles up a wall? As they are floor tiles they are a
little thicker and heavier than normal wall tiles. Any advice please?


In view of the heavier tiles, I'd use a wall adhesive, with the larger
comb spreader to give a bit more depth. The floor adhesives I've used are
too dense and heavy for walls, high cement content I think.

I'm currently tiling my bathroom with 60 x 30cm tiles - they're heavy ! I am
using "Heavy Duty Non-Slip Tile Adhesive" for this, as recommended by the
man in the store, and it is absoluely fine. In fact, so good is it, that
you've got about 1 minute maximum to position the tile, and then there ain't
no way the bugger's coming off ...

Arfa

In article ,
David in Normandy wrote:
We are extending the floor tiles up the wall. Question - can the same
tile cement be used on the wall as was used on the floor or is a
different product - i.e. something a bit more "sticky" required for
fixing the "floor" tiles up a wall? As they are floor tiles they are a
little thicker and heavier than normal wall tiles. Any advice please?

Generally, floor tiles use a totally waterproof adhesive which is cement
based. Ordinary wall tile adhesive is water resistant - not the same thing.

--
*Why do we say something is out of whack? What is a whack?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Arfa Daily wrote:
"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
om...
David in Normandy wrote:
We are extending the floor tiles up the wall. Question - can the same
tile cement be used on the wall as was used on the floor or is a
different product - i.e. something a bit more "sticky" required for
fixing the "floor" tiles up a wall? As they are floor tiles they are a
little thicker and heavier than normal wall tiles. Any advice please?

In view of the heavier tiles, I'd use a wall adhesive, with the larger
comb spreader to give a bit more depth. The floor adhesives I've used are
too dense and heavy for walls, high cement content I think.

I'm currently tiling my bathroom with 60 x 30cm tiles - they're heavy ! I am
using "Heavy Duty Non-Slip Tile Adhesive" for this, as recommended by the
man in the store, and it is absoluely fine. In fact, so good is it, that
you've got about 1 minute maximum to position the tile, and then there ain't
no way the bugger's coming off ...

Arfa



Right, that sounds like what I need. Thanks.

--
David in Normandy.
To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the
subject line, or it will be automatically deleted
by a filter and not reach my inbox.

On 9 June, 20:49, David in Normandy
wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:
"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
. com...
David in Normandy wrote:
We are extending the floor tiles up the wall. Question - can the same
tile cement be used on the wall as was used on the floor or is a
different product - i.e. something a bit more "sticky" required for
fixing the "floor" tiles up a wall? As they are floor tiles they are a
little thicker and heavier than normal wall tiles. Any advice please?

In view of the heavier tiles, I'd use a wall adhesive, with the larger
comb spreader to give a bit more depth. The floor adhesives I've used are
too dense and heavy for walls, high cement content I think.

I'm currently tiling my bathroom with 60 x 30cm tiles - they're heavy ! I am
using "Heavy Duty Non-Slip Tile Adhesive" for this, as recommended by the
man in the store, and it is absoluely fine. In fact, so good is it, that
you've got about 1 minute maximum to position the tile, and then there ain't
no way the bugger's coming off ...

Arfa

Right, that sounds like what I need. Thanks.

--
David in Normandy. *
* *To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the
* *subject line, or it will be automatically deleted
* *by a filter and not reach my inbox.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You should not be using a tub adhesive if they are large format tiles
(over 30 x 30 or so). It doesn't set properly. You need to use a
cement based adhesive on those whether on floors or walls. There are
versions which are high grab for walls.

IIRC plasterboard can only carry 30kg/m2 bare (20kgm2 with a skim-
coat), so check you are OK there - some thick porcelains will exceed
that (and many stones).

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
David in Normandy wrote:
We are extending the floor tiles up the wall. Question - can the same
tile cement be used on the wall as was used on the floor or is a
different product - i.e. something a bit more "sticky" required for
fixing the "floor" tiles up a wall? As they are floor tiles they are a
little thicker and heavier than normal wall tiles. Any advice please?

Generally, floor tiles use a totally waterproof adhesive which is cement
based. Ordinary wall tile adhesive is water resistant - not the same
thing.

--
*Why do we say something is out of whack? What is a whack?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.


I used to think that Dave, but since casting around for the tiles for my
bathroom refurb project, I have now found that many ceramic tiles seem to be
specced for use both on floor and walls. But agreed that if the tiles are
'stone', then a cement based adhesive is usually used, and a ceramic tile
adhesive will not be suitable.

Arfa

In article
,
wrote:
You should not be using a tub adhesive if they are large format tiles
(over 30 x 30 or so). It doesn't set properly. You need to use a
cement based adhesive on those whether on floors or walls. There are
versions which are high grab for walls.

I tiled my entire bathroom walls with 300 x 420mm porcelain tiles suitable
for wall or floor use. Using tub adhesive - actually Homebase own brand.
Which is stated to be suitable for porcelain tiles - others may not be.
And I can assure you it does set. I did try Wicks stuff which was
considerably cheaper and the tiles fell off. ;-)

IIRC plasterboard can only carry 30kg/m2 bare (20kgm2 with a skim-
coat), so check you are OK there - some thick porcelains will exceed
that (and many stones).

Right - so the box which usually contains 1 sq mtr would weigh 30 kg? Mine
was heavy enough to carry but nowhere near that. Although I could well
imagine real stone being very heavy.

--
*I started out with nothing, and I still have most of it*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
wrote:
You should not be using a tub adhesive if they are large format tiles
(over 30 x 30 or so). It doesn't set properly. You need to use a
cement based adhesive on those whether on floors or walls. There are
versions which are high grab for walls.

I tiled my entire bathroom walls with 300 x 420mm porcelain tiles suitable
for wall or floor use. Using tub adhesive - actually Homebase own brand.
Which is stated to be suitable for porcelain tiles - others may not be.
And I can assure you it does set. I did try Wicks stuff which was
considerably cheaper and the tiles fell off. ;-)

IIRC plasterboard can only carry 30kg/m2 bare (20kgm2 with a skim-
coat), so check you are OK there - some thick porcelains will exceed
that (and many stones).

Right - so the box which usually contains 1 sq mtr would weigh 30 kg? Mine
was heavy enough to carry but nowhere near that. Although I could well
imagine real stone being very heavy.


Oh yes. but actually the wall doesn't carry its weight.

A tiled wall is a wall of tiles. With grout between supporting each one.
The plasterboard is merely there to prevent it buckling sideways.

Its a point that most people miss: When you tile a wall, the original
wall ceases - or should cease - to have much say in either the
structural strength or the waterproofing.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Right - so the box which usually contains 1 sq mtr would weigh 30 kg?
Mine was heavy enough to carry but nowhere near that. Although I could
well imagine real stone being very heavy.


Oh yes. but actually the wall doesn't carry its weight.

A tiled wall is a wall of tiles. With grout between supporting each one.
The plasterboard is merely there to prevent it buckling sideways.

You're assuming the bottom tile is supported by the floor? In my case it's
not - there's a hardwood skirting and I didn't grout to that. Just left a
gap the same as the spacing between the tiles.

Its a point that most people miss: When you tile a wall, the original
wall ceases - or should cease - to have much say in either the
structural strength or the waterproofing.

A couple of the external walls had fairly poor plaster - the original lime
stuff where the skim came off in places when preparing. I gave it a good
soak in PVA, left to dry thoroughly, and just increased the adhesive
thickness to compensate and it seems pretty solid now.

--
*It is easier to get older than it is to get wiser.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

wrote in message
...
On 9 June, 20:49, David in Normandy
wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:
"Stuart Noble" wrote in message
. com...
David in Normandy wrote:
We are extending the floor tiles up the wall. Question - can the same
tile cement be used on the wall as was used on the floor or is a
different product - i.e. something a bit more "sticky" required for
fixing the "floor" tiles up a wall? As they are floor tiles they are a
little thicker and heavier than normal wall tiles. Any advice please?

In view of the heavier tiles, I'd use a wall adhesive, with the larger
comb spreader to give a bit more depth. The floor adhesives I've used
are
too dense and heavy for walls, high cement content I think.

I'm currently tiling my bathroom with 60 x 30cm tiles - they're heavy !
I am
using "Heavy Duty Non-Slip Tile Adhesive" for this, as recommended by
the
man in the store, and it is absoluely fine. In fact, so good is it, that
you've got about 1 minute maximum to position the tile, and then there
ain't
no way the bugger's coming off ...

Arfa

Right, that sounds like what I need. Thanks.

--
David in Normandy.
To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the
subject line, or it will be automatically deleted
by a filter and not reach my inbox.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You should not be using a tub adhesive if they are large format tiles
(over 30 x 30 or so). It doesn't set properly. You need to use a
cement based adhesive on those whether on floors or walls. There are
versions which are high grab for walls.



It sets ok if you are using tub based cement intended for the job. I expect
that's why it's called "Heavy Duty". I am using a heavy duty tub based
ceramic tile adhesive to fix 30cm x 60cm ceramic tiles to my bathroom wall,
and I can assure you that it is setting totally hard. It does 'exactly as it
says on the tin', and exactly what the man in the shop said it would. As he
sells many tiles this big, I guess he knows which adhesive to recommend for
sticking them ?

Arfa

In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
You should not be using a tub adhesive if they are large format tiles
(over 30 x 30 or so). It doesn't set properly. You need to use a
cement based adhesive on those whether on floors or walls. There are
versions which are high grab for walls.


It sets ok if you are using tub based cement intended for the job. I
expect that's why it's called "Heavy Duty". I am using a heavy duty tub
based ceramic tile adhesive to fix 30cm x 60cm ceramic tiles to my
bathroom wall, and I can assure you that it is setting totally hard. It
does 'exactly as it says on the tin', and exactly what the man in the
shop said it would. As he sells many tiles this big, I guess he knows
which adhesive to recommend for sticking them ?

That's what I found. But as I said cheap Wicks tub adhesive wasn't up to
the job - but then it does say 'not suitable for porcelain tiles'. So
whether it was that or the weight I dunno.
Nor can I see why the size of the tile matters that much to the adhesive
setting. It might take longer to go off fully - but most will be going
onto a porous surface like plaster. I did tile the shower cubical with
different tiles - and tiled over the old ones which were solid. That did
take a long time for the adhesive to set fully - but then it was an inch
thick in places. ;-)

--
*To err is human. To forgive is against company policy.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 10 June, 11:28, "Arfa Daily" wrote:

It sets ok if you are using tub based cement intended for the job. I expect
that's why it's called "Heavy Duty". I am using a heavy duty tub based
ceramic tile adhesive to fix 30cm x 60cm ceramic tiles to my bathroom wall,
and I can assure you that it is setting totally hard. It does 'exactly as it
says on the tin', and exactly what the man in the shop said it would. As he
sells many tiles this big, I guess he knows which adhesive to recommend for
sticking them ? -

I do not know of any manufacturer (or pro tiler) who is prepared to
endorse the use of dispersion adhesives on large format tiles. Who is
the manufacturer?

You trust a tile salesman over a multitude of manufacturers technical
depts and pro tilers? Go right ahead.

Have you pulled a tile off. Odds on, you will have a 'picture frame'
of set adhesive around the edge which is making you think it is all
set.

In article
,
wrote:
It sets ok if you are using tub based cement intended for the job. I
expect that's why it's called "Heavy Duty". I am using a heavy duty
tub based ceramic tile adhesive to fix 30cm x 60cm ceramic tiles to my
bathroom wall, and I can assure you that it is setting totally hard.
It does 'exactly as it says on the tin', and exactly what the man in
the shop said it would. As he sells many tiles this big, I guess he
knows which adhesive to recommend for sticking them ? -

I do not know of any manufacturer (or pro tiler) who is prepared to
endorse the use of dispersion adhesives on large format tiles. Who is
the manufacturer?

You trust a tile salesman over a multitude of manufacturers technical
depts and pro tilers? Go right ahead.

Have you pulled a tile off. Odds on, you will have a 'picture frame'
of set adhesive around the edge which is making you think it is all
set.

Err, the adhesive dries via the plaster etc which is porous. Very few
indeed would be tiling direct to a concrete wall.

Oh - I did subsequently remove some tiles to insert a mirror. I can assure
you the adhesive had thoroughly dried. ;-)

--
*If a parsley farmer is sued, can they garnish his wages?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 10 June, 17:02, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article
,
* wrote:

It sets ok if you are using tub based cement intended for the job. I
expect that's why it's called "Heavy Duty". I am using a heavy duty
tub based ceramic tile adhesive to fix 30cm x 60cm ceramic tiles to my
bathroom wall, and I can assure you that it is setting totally hard.
It does 'exactly as it says on the tin', and exactly what the man in
the shop said it would. As he sells many tiles this big, I guess he
knows which adhesive to recommend for sticking them ? -
I do not know of any manufacturer (or pro tiler) who is prepared to
endorse the use of dispersion adhesives on large format tiles. Who is
the manufacturer?
You trust a tile salesman over a multitude of manufacturers technical
depts and pro tilers? *Go right ahead.
Have you pulled a tile off. *Odds on, you will have a 'picture frame'
of set adhesive around the edge which is making you think it is all
set.

Err, the adhesive dries via the plaster etc which is porous. Very few
indeed would be tiling direct to a concrete wall.

Oh - I did subsequently remove some tiles to insert a mirror. I can assure
you the adhesive had thoroughly dried. ;-)

--
*If a parsley farmer is sued, can they garnish his wages?

* * Dave Plowman * * * * * * * * London SW
* * * * * * * * * To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I still think I will follow the universal advice of the experts who
make the stuff rather than someone who has used it incorrectly a few
times and got away with it, thanks. For a few extra quid and a bit of
stirring, I see no reason to bodge it and take the risk.

In message
,
writes
On 10 June, 17:02, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article
,
* wrote:

It sets ok if you are using tub based cement intended for the job. I
expect that's why it's called "Heavy Duty". I am using a heavy duty
tub based ceramic tile adhesive to fix 30cm x 60cm ceramic tiles to my
bathroom wall, and I can assure you that it is setting totally hard.
It does 'exactly as it says on the tin', and exactly what the man in
the shop said it would. As he sells many tiles this big, I guess he
knows which adhesive to recommend for sticking them ? -
I do not know of any manufacturer (or pro tiler) who is prepared to
endorse the use of dispersion adhesives on large format tiles. Who is
the manufacturer?
You trust a tile salesman over a multitude of manufacturers technical
depts and pro tilers? *Go right ahead.
Have you pulled a tile off. *Odds on, you will have a 'picture frame'
of set adhesive around the edge which is making you think it is all
set.

Err, the adhesive dries via the plaster etc which is porous. Very few
indeed would be tiling direct to a concrete wall.

Oh - I did subsequently remove some tiles to insert a mirror. I can assure
you the adhesive had thoroughly dried. ;-)

--
*If a parsley farmer is sued, can they garnish his wages?

* * Dave Plowman * * * * * * * * London SW
* * * * * * * * * To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I still think I will follow the universal advice of the experts who
make the stuff rather than someone who has used it incorrectly a few
times and got away with it, thanks. For a few extra quid and a bit of
stirring, I see no reason to bodge it and take the risk.

Before tackling our kitchen tiling (30x45 porcelain floor and 30x40
ceramic wall) I lurked on the tiler's forum for a while and picked up
some useful pointers. Perhaps the most important was to use the
adhesives that they use and recommend which are Bal (from Topps) or
Mapei (from BCT). I went with Mapei (a bit less expensive than Bal) and
the slower to go off Keraflex Maxi range of cement based stuff. Having
used some Unibond ready mixed in the past the Keraflex was much easier
to apply - consistently just the right consistency, wall tiles and the
part floor tiles used as skirting stayed in place immediately on contact
but still allowed a bit of movement to adjust for spacers.

--
Robert

In article
,
wrote:
Err, the adhesive dries via the plaster etc which is porous. Very few
indeed would be tiling direct to a concrete wall.

Oh - I did subsequently remove some tiles to insert a mirror. I can
assure you the adhesive had thoroughly dried. ;-)

I still think I will follow the universal advice of the experts who
make the stuff rather than someone who has used it incorrectly a few
times and got away with it, thanks. For a few extra quid and a bit of
stirring, I see no reason to bodge it and take the risk.

Probably different if you tile for a living. You'll want to be out of
there as quickly as possible. Just the same as the 'score and split'
against using a wet cutter. The wet cutter gives a far superior edge - but
takes longer.
But this is a DIY group. And you're just plain wrong about 'tub' adhesive
not drying out with large tiles. Other thing is a cement based adhesive is
a pain in the arse if you need to remove tiles at a later date.

--
*Just remember...if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 10 June, 19:06, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article
,
* wrote:

Err, the adhesive dries via the plaster etc which is porous. Very few
indeed would be tiling direct to a concrete wall.

Oh - I did subsequently remove some tiles to insert a mirror. I can
assure you the adhesive had thoroughly dried. ;-)
I still think I will follow the universal advice of the experts who
make the stuff rather than someone who has used it incorrectly a few
times and got away with it, thanks. *For a few extra quid and a bit of
stirring, I see no reason to bodge it and take the risk.


*But this is a DIY group. And you're just plain wrong about 'tub' adhesive
not drying out with large tiles. Other thing is a cement based adhesive is
a pain in the arse if you need to remove tiles at a later date.

I'm not pretending to be an expert - I've just tiled a few walls and
on my second floor. But, whatever I'm doing, I always read up on, and
follow the experts' and pros' best practice - not where the latter are
just saving time or cutting corners, but definitely when they are
avoiding call-backs and potential issues. One of the joys of DIY is
being able to make sure the the job is done right. I'm happy to
follow those with much more expertise on stuff like this, especially
when the hassle and cost of it going wrong fars outweighs what little
saving is on offer by using tub gear. Try ringing a BAL, Ardex,
Mapei, etc tech help-line and see what they say re large format
porcelain on plasterboard. The non-setting picture frame story is
from pro tilers who have experienced it with problem installs (and not
overnight, weeks later).

On 10 June, 18:55, robert wrote:
In message
,
writes





On 10 June, 17:02, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article
,
* wrote:

It sets ok if you are using tub based cement intended for the job. I
expect that's why it's called "Heavy Duty". I am using a heavy duty
tub based ceramic tile adhesive to fix 30cm x 60cm ceramic tiles to my
bathroom wall, and I can assure you that it is setting totally hard.
It does 'exactly as it says on the tin', and exactly what the man in
the shop said it would. As he sells many tiles this big, I guess he
knows which adhesive to recommend for sticking them ? -
I do not know of any manufacturer (or pro tiler) who is prepared to
endorse the use of dispersion adhesives on large format tiles. Who is
the manufacturer?
You trust a tile salesman over a multitude of manufacturers technical
depts and pro tilers? *Go right ahead.
Have you pulled a tile off. *Odds on, you will have a 'picture frame'
of set adhesive around the edge which is making you think it is all
set.

Err, the adhesive dries via the plaster etc which is porous. Very few
indeed would be tiling direct to a concrete wall.

Oh - I did subsequently remove some tiles to insert a mirror. I can assure
you the adhesive had thoroughly dried. ;-)

--
*If a parsley farmer is sued, can they garnish his wages?

* * Dave Plowman * * * * * * * * London SW
* * * * * * * * * To e-mail, change noise into sound..

I still think I will follow the universal advice of the experts who
make the stuff rather than someone who has used it incorrectly a few
times and got away with it, thanks. *For a few extra quid and a bit of
stirring, I see no reason to bodge it and take the risk.

Before tackling our kitchen tiling (30x45 porcelain floor and 30x40
ceramic wall) I lurked on the tiler's forum for a while and picked up
some useful pointers. *Perhaps the most important was to use the
adhesives that they use and recommend which are Bal (from Topps) or
Mapei (from BCT). *I went with Mapei (a bit less expensive than Bal) and
the slower to go off Keraflex Maxi range of cement based stuff. *Having
used some Unibond ready mixed in the past the Keraflex was much easier
to apply - consistently just the right consistency, wall tiles and the
part floor tiles used as skirting stayed in place immediately on contact
but still allowed a bit of movement to adjust for spacers.


Quite, very much part of my approach. I'm using Keraflex Maxi on a
floor at the moment, it's a joy. Brick-bond large format, straight in
the deep end, but fortunately with some educated guidance.

wrote in message
...
On 10 June, 19:06, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article
,
wrote:

Err, the adhesive dries via the plaster etc which is porous. Very few
indeed would be tiling direct to a concrete wall.

Oh - I did subsequently remove some tiles to insert a mirror. I can
assure you the adhesive had thoroughly dried. ;-)
I still think I will follow the universal advice of the experts who
make the stuff rather than someone who has used it incorrectly a few
times and got away with it, thanks. For a few extra quid and a bit of
stirring, I see no reason to bodge it and take the risk.


But this is a DIY group. And you're just plain wrong about 'tub' adhesive
not drying out with large tiles. Other thing is a cement based adhesive is
a pain in the arse if you need to remove tiles at a later date.

I'm not pretending to be an expert - I've just tiled a few walls and
on my second floor. But, whatever I'm doing, I always read up on, and
follow the experts' and pros' best practice - not where the latter are
just saving time or cutting corners, but definitely when they are
avoiding call-backs and potential issues. One of the joys of DIY is
being able to make sure the the job is done right. I'm happy to
follow those with much more expertise on stuff like this, especially
when the hassle and cost of it going wrong fars outweighs what little
saving is on offer by using tub gear. Try ringing a BAL, Ardex,
Mapei, etc tech help-line and see what they say re large format
porcelain on plasterboard. The non-setting picture frame story is
from pro tilers who have experienced it with problem installs (and not
overnight, weeks later).

Well, I've been DIY tiling for more years than I care to remember. I have
used just about every size of ceramic wall tile going, and have always used
ready mixed tub based adhesives. I have, over the years also had cause to
remove tiles previously fixed in this way, and have never seen your picture
frame effect. In fact I usually have to smash any tiles off with a hammer
and chisel. Up until now, my tile adhesive of choice has been B&Q Cerafix
non slip, which I have found to be an excellent product.

I actually object to you suggesting that I am any kind of bodger who has
"incorrectly used a product a few times and got away with it", and just
plunges ahead without doing any kind of research. If you have "done a few
walls" then I would suggest that I have probably done an awful lot more
tiling in my life than you.

The outlet that I used to purchase my current large format tiles, is a small
family firm, and the guy that runs my local branch is very knowledgable
about the range of products that he stocks, which is why I am prepared to
listen to him, and any advice that he has to give. He has a number of
different adhesives in stock, including mix it yourself types, but the one
he recommended for fixing these tiles was a heavy duty non slip tub based
one. That was good enough for me. He's hardly going to recommend something
that will allow the tiles he's sold me, to fall off the wall, is he ?

Arfa

On 11 June, 01:18, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On 10 June, 19:06, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:


The outlet that I used to purchase my current large format tiles, is a small
family firm, and the guy that runs my local branch is very knowledgable
about the range of products that he stocks, which is why I am prepared to
listen to him, and any advice that he has to give. He has a number of
different adhesives in stock, including mix it yourself types, but the one
he recommended for fixing these tiles was a heavy duty non slip tub based
one. That was good enough for me. He's hardly going to recommend something
that will allow the tiles he's sold me, to fall off the wall, is he ?

OK - always willing to learn. What is the make and product, you
didn't answer that?

In article
,
wrote:
But this is a DIY group. And you're just plain wrong about 'tub'
adhesive not drying out with large tiles. Other thing is a cement
based adhesive is a pain in the arse if you need to remove tiles at a
later date.

I'm not pretending to be an expert - I've just tiled a few walls and
on my second floor. But, whatever I'm doing, I always read up on, and
follow the experts' and pros' best practice - not where the latter are
just saving time or cutting corners, but definitely when they are
avoiding call-backs and potential issues. One of the joys of DIY is
being able to make sure the the job is done right. I'm happy to
follow those with much more expertise on stuff like this, especially
when the hassle and cost of it going wrong fars outweighs what little
saving is on offer by using tub gear. Try ringing a BAL, Ardex,
Mapei, etc tech help-line and see what they say re large format
porcelain on plasterboard. The non-setting picture frame story is
from pro tilers who have experienced it with problem installs (and not
overnight, weeks later).

I've just had a look at the Ardex site and they sell a tub adhesive as
suitable for porcelain tiles on pretty well any substrata. No mention of
tile size. Which is strange if there is a limit - given how popular large
tiles are these days.

Think your mate was pulling your plonker...

Just consider. Most tiles are non porous - porcelain especially so. But
the plaster etc behind is porous, so the adhesive dries via that route.
And dry it certainly does - I removed some tiles to fit an inset mirror
about a week after fixing and it was rock hard.

--
*You! Off my planet!

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Bolted" wrote in message
...
On 11 June, 01:18, "Arfa Daily" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On 10 June, 19:06, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:


The outlet that I used to purchase my current large format tiles, is a
small
family firm, and the guy that runs my local branch is very knowledgable
about the range of products that he stocks, which is why I am prepared to
listen to him, and any advice that he has to give. He has a number of
different adhesives in stock, including mix it yourself types, but the
one
he recommended for fixing these tiles was a heavy duty non slip tub based
one. That was good enough for me. He's hardly going to recommend
something
that will allow the tiles he's sold me, to fall off the wall, is he ?

OK - always willing to learn. What is the make and product, you
didn't answer that?


The product is "Al Murad Heavy Duty Non-Slip Tile Adhesive" It is quoted on
the tub as

" ... is formulated for fixing ceramic wall tiles to most interior wall
surfaces including cement rendering, plaster, plasterboard, existing tiles,
wood and wood composites without the need for battening or supports. Exceeds
the requirements of BS5980 Type 2 Class B and BS EN 12004 D1T."

It goes on

"This product's excellent non-slip properties make it ideal for fixing most
types // and sizes // (my emphasis) of ceramic wall tiles " .... usual
stuff about waterproof grout, kitchens, showers, bathrooms etc .... "It
is easy to apply and is specially formulated to allow time for adjustment
after fixing. It is a thin bed adhesive for application up to a thickness of
3mm".

And therin, I would venture to suggest, is the trick, and the one that is
missed by people who pile the stuff on in disorganised lumps, and then have
trouble with it not drying.

That said, I have had areas where the plaster has come off the walls with
the old tiles, and I have fixed new ones using seven-spot rather than combed
bed, and have had no problems with the fix being totally solid.

Actually, looking at their website

http://www.al-murad.co.uk/

They are bigger than I though they were, never-the-less, I have found the
person who runs my local branch to be very knowledgable and helpful.
Certainly more so than the erks in all the 'big boys' stores. I got the
impression that the premises were his, so maybe it's a franchise operation ?
The deal that I got on my tiles and accessories was almost unbelievable,
with the guy seeming to be able to 'deal' as the sale suited. I thought B&Q
were actually pretty good on price, but they weren't even on the same
planet, let alone in the same ballpark on price, with these large format
tiles.

Arfa

Just consider. Most tiles are non porous - porcelain especially so. But
the plaster etc behind is porous, so the adhesive dries via that route.
And dry it certainly does - I removed some tiles to fit an inset mirror
about a week after fixing and it was rock hard.


In a good tile adhesive there shouldn't be a lot of moisture to dry out
because the lightweight aggregates don't absorb water.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
wrote:
But this is a DIY group. And you're just plain wrong about 'tub'
adhesive not drying out with large tiles. Other thing is a cement
based adhesive is a pain in the arse if you need to remove tiles at a
later date.

I'm not pretending to be an expert - I've just tiled a few walls and
on my second floor. But, whatever I'm doing, I always read up on, and
follow the experts' and pros' best practice - not where the latter are
just saving time or cutting corners, but definitely when they are
avoiding call-backs and potential issues. One of the joys of DIY is
being able to make sure the the job is done right. I'm happy to
follow those with much more expertise on stuff like this, especially
when the hassle and cost of it going wrong fars outweighs what little
saving is on offer by using tub gear. Try ringing a BAL, Ardex,
Mapei, etc tech help-line and see what they say re large format
porcelain on plasterboard. The non-setting picture frame story is
from pro tilers who have experienced it with problem installs (and not
overnight, weeks later).

I've just had a look at the Ardex site and they sell a tub adhesive as
suitable for porcelain tiles on pretty well any substrata. No mention of
tile size. Which is strange if there is a limit - given how popular large
tiles are these days.

Think your mate was pulling your plonker...

Just consider. Most tiles are non porous - porcelain especially so. But
the plaster etc behind is porous, so the adhesive dries via that route.
And dry it certainly does - I removed some tiles to fit an inset mirror
about a week after fixing and it was rock hard.


Yes, but if the plonker has PVA'ed the thing, or used inside out foil
coated. Or is tiling over cement render or old tiles..yes..I HAVE seen
ordinary adhesive take several days to get to strength.

I don't like cement adhesives for walls for reasons mentioned: My
favorite is Evostik water resistant. Good compromise between price, ease
of use and general grab and rapid dry


Its been rebranded it seems

http://www.bostik.co.uk/diy/product/...all-waterproof

Other places cite 24hours on a porous, 72hours on non porous surfaces
for set time. That is about right. It does go off eventually, but boy it
takes time..

In article ,
Stuart Noble wrote:
Just consider. Most tiles are non porous - porcelain especially so.
But the plaster etc behind is porous, so the adhesive dries via that
route. And dry it certainly does - I removed some tiles to fit an
inset mirror about a week after fixing and it was rock hard.


In a good tile adhesive there shouldn't be a lot of moisture to dry out
because the lightweight aggregates don't absorb water.

Tub adhesives are air drying though. Unlike cement based ones where it's a
chemical reaction.

--
*Succeed, in spite of management *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 11 June, 10:58, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

*I've just had a look at the Ardex site and they sell a tub adhesive as
suitable for porcelain tiles on pretty well any substrata. No mention of
tile size. Which is strange if there is a limit - given how popular large
tiles are these days.

*Think your mate was pulling your plonker...

It isn't a mate, it is from reading tech recommendations, and pro
tilers discussing this stuff, and their discussions with the
manufacturers.

I just called Ardex technical and said someone was recommending I use
their tub gear on a large format porcelain. They said they wouldn't
recommend it for anything over 300x300 "because it just won't dry
out". Mentioning plasterboard got a slightly less concerned noise,
and a bit of a rant about people trying to build out uneven walls to
cope with large formats, but the recommendation was still firmly for
one of two cement products.

You try it.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Just consider. Most tiles are non porous - porcelain especially so. But
the plaster etc behind is porous, so the adhesive dries via that route.
And dry it certainly does - I removed some tiles to fit an inset mirror
about a week after fixing and it was rock hard.


Yes, but if the plonker has PVA'ed the thing, or used inside out foil
coated. Or is tiling over cement render or old tiles..yes..I HAVE seen
ordinary adhesive take several days to get to strength.

I don't like cement adhesives for walls for reasons mentioned: My
favorite is Evostik water resistant. Good compromise between price, ease
of use and general grab and rapid dry


Its been rebranded it seems

http://www.bostik.co.uk/diy/product/...all-waterproof

Other places cite 24hours on a porous, 72hours on non porous surfaces
for set time. That is about right. It does go off eventually, but boy it
takes time..

Yes - I tiled on top of tiles in the shower cubical and that took several
days to set hard. But it did eventually.

I wonder if the OP's tiler mate is one of those who has to finish
everything by yesterday - fair enough if it's how you make your living -
but not really relevant for DIY where most have to measure twice to cut
once. ;-)

It's the same argument you get about wet tile cutters against score and
snap. Wet is better in every way - except speed.

--
*If vegetable oil comes from vegetables, where does baby oil come from? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article
,
Bolted wrote:
On 11 June, 10:58, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

I've just had a look at the Ardex site and they sell a tub adhesive
as suitable for porcelain tiles on pretty well any substrata. No
mention of tile size. Which is strange if there is a limit - given how
popular large tiles are these days.

Think your mate was pulling your plonker...

It isn't a mate, it is from reading tech recommendations, and pro
tilers discussing this stuff, and their discussions with the
manufacturers.

What made you read all this rather than just asking the tile supplier?
Or reading a 'how to' leaflet in a DIY store? They all sell large tiles
these days.

I just called Ardex technical and said someone was recommending I use
their tub gear on a large format porcelain. They said they wouldn't
recommend it for anything over 300x300 "because it just won't dry
out". Mentioning plasterboard got a slightly less concerned noise,
and a bit of a rant about people trying to build out uneven walls to
cope with large formats, but the recommendation was still firmly for
one of two cement products.

Sounds like they were on something. Pretty well every house these days has
plasterboard walls somewhere. But it's little different from plaster on
brick, etc, in practice. Which covers 99% of domestic walls.

You try it.

Sigh. How many times do you have to be told I have done. As have others
here. And of course it dries. May take slightly longer with large tiles -
but so what?

--
*Be more or less specific *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 11 June, 15:46, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
*What made you read all this rather than just asking the tile supplier?
Or reading a 'how to' leaflet in a DIY store? They all sell large tiles
these days.

Arf. I like to find out what people who know what they are doing
think. Not what the ill-informed think.

I just called Ardex technical and said someone was recommending I use
their tub gear on a large format porcelain. They said they wouldn't
recommend it for anything over 300x300 "because it just won't dry
out".

Sounds like they were on something. Pretty well every house these days has
plasterboard walls somewhere. But it's little different from plaster on
brick, etc, in practice. Which covers 99% of domestic walls.

Did you read what I wrote - oh of course you didn't, because you know
it all already.

You try it.

Sigh. How many times do you have to be told I have done. As have others
here. And of course it dries. May take slightly longer with large tiles -
but so what?

I meant trying asking someone who knows what they are talking about -
by calling the Ardex tech line to see if they agreed with your
homespun reasoning. They didn't when I asked them. Maybe you would
get a different answer.

In article
,
Bolted wrote:
Sigh. How many times do you have to be told I have done. As have
others here. And of course it dries. May take slightly longer with
large tiles - but so what?

I meant trying asking someone who knows what they are talking about -
by calling the Ardex tech line to see if they agreed with your
homespun reasoning. They didn't when I asked them. Maybe you would
get a different answer.

Think I'll give a reasoned reply. **** off.

--
*How come you never hear about gruntled employees? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Bolted" wrote in message
...
On 11 June, 15:46, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
What made you read all this rather than just asking the tile supplier?
Or reading a 'how to' leaflet in a DIY store? They all sell large tiles
these days.

Arf. I like to find out what people who know what they are doing
think. Not what the ill-informed think.


Is that directed at me ? If so, I suggest that you read the headers as to
who posted what, a little more carefully ... I have actually said nothing
to you, that wasn't polite, and didn't reflect real life experience, gained
over many years of - well - real life really ...

It was you who threw the word "bodger" in my direction, as I recall.

Arfa

In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
"Bolted" wrote in message
...
On 11 June, 15:46, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
What made you read all this rather than just asking the tile
supplier? Or reading a 'how to' leaflet in a DIY store? They all
sell large tiles these days.

Arf. I like to find out what people who know what they are doing
think. Not what the ill-informed think.


Is that directed at me ?

Think it's to me.

If so, I suggest that you read the headers as
to who posted what, a little more carefully ... I have actually said
nothing to you, that wasn't polite, and didn't reflect real life
experience, gained over many years of - well - real life really ...

It was you who threw the word "bodger" in my direction, as I recall.

He's been told by several here that at least certain brands of tub
adhesive are fine with tiles larger than 300 x 300mm - including me. I
have a large bathroom with the walls totally tiled with ones bigger than
that - and heavy floor porcelain ones at that. And since they've been up
for over a year I hardly expect any problems now.

If he's found a maker of adhesive who's help line says it's not suitable -
use another make. I used Homebase own brand which was on offer at the
time.

Given how common large tiles are these days I'd expect a warning on the
tub if it wasn't suitable - like they do for porcelain.

--
*I finally got my head together, now my body is falling apart.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
"Bolted" wrote in message
...
On 11 June, 15:46, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
What made you read all this rather than just asking the tile
supplier? Or reading a 'how to' leaflet in a DIY store? They all
sell large tiles these days.

Arf. I like to find out what people who know what they are doing
think. Not what the ill-informed think.


Is that directed at me ?

Think it's to me.


Well I thought that Dave, but it started "Arf" so that's why I took it to be
aimed at me ...



If so, I suggest that you read the headers as
to who posted what, a little more carefully ... I have actually said
nothing to you, that wasn't polite, and didn't reflect real life
experience, gained over many years of - well - real life really ...

It was you who threw the word "bodger" in my direction, as I recall.

He's been told by several here that at least certain brands of tub
adhesive are fine with tiles larger than 300 x 300mm - including me. I
have a large bathroom with the walls totally tiled with ones bigger than
that - and heavy floor porcelain ones at that. And since they've been up
for over a year I hardly expect any problems now.

If he's found a maker of adhesive who's help line says it's not suitable -
use another make. I used Homebase own brand which was on offer at the
time.

Given how common large tiles are these days I'd expect a warning on the
tub if it wasn't suitable - like they do for porcelain.

--
*I finally got my head together, now my body is falling apart.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I forgot to add that this is in the bathroom and the walls are normal
plasterboard (not green) but treated with several coats of PVA to seal
them.

I was told never to PVA under tiles as it prevents the tile adhesive getting
a proper bond on the wall, especially plaster board and wood.



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4155 (20090615) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

In article ,
Ian_m wrote:
I forgot to add that this is in the bathroom and the walls are normal
plasterboard (not green) but treated with several coats of PVA to seal
them.

I was told never to PVA under tiles as it prevents the tile adhesive
getting a proper bond on the wall, especially plaster board and wood.

It would certainly increase the setting time for a non cement based type.

--
*Funny, I don't remember being absent minded.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.