On 08 Jun 2009 16:14:23 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

I'm not thinking of a trip of the breaker due to overload but due to
earth leakage.

The circuit is earth return (track), so you can't measure earth leakage,
as it's not insulated from earth.

Track earth but I take the point and starts to think...

One assumes the feed points connect to the track and the overhead wire (or
3rd rail). To try and make the lowest resistance return path through the
rails and not the real ground. Were there not problems with lead covered
cables and return currents from trams at one time?

If you don't get back from the track what you are sending down the feed it
must be going elsewhere, and possibly not where you want it to go...

What current you deem as a "unsafe" level of leakage could still be quite
high but less than that deemed an overload. And at 25kV with soaking wet
insulators in fog there could be significant natural leakage.

I can't help thinking that the wrapping people in cotton wool that we
do in this country (i.e. protecting them from images of such realities)
may well result in more such incidents due to widespread ignorance.

I agree, and films where people get back up and are running around as fit
as a fiddle moments after being whacked with a baseball bat don't help.

A year or so ago they put up a noticeboard at Hartside Cafe (a very
popular bikers meeting point on a very popular bike route) with photos of
mangled bikes taken within a few miles of said cafe. There were less
accidents and fatalities that year...

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...

A year or so ago they put up a noticeboard at Hartside Cafe (a very
popular bikers meeting point on a very popular bike route) with photos of
mangled bikes taken within a few miles of said cafe. There were less
accidents and fatalities that year...

Much as I'd like to hope it helped, I think it was probably the weather
causing that - the wet summer put a lot of the bikers off.

On Tue, 09 Jun 2009 00:09:27 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
Indeed. I wonder how many people still have a copy of the insert name
of old internet text file of making stuff that goes bang at home here

One word starting with A, another with C? I recall when reading a copy of
that was almost a rite of passage for any student doing any kind of
sciences degree... funny how times change.

On Mon, 08 Jun 2009 14:57:32 -0700, Adam Aglionby wrote:

On 8 June, 17:32, David Hansen
wrote:
On 08 Jun 2009 16:14:23 GMT someone who may be
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote this:-

I can't help thinking that the wrapping people in cotton wool that we
do in this country (i.e. protecting them from images of such realities)
may well result in more such incidents due to widespread ignorance.

US used to have a policy in the 50`s and early 60`s of showing
teenagers graphic footage of fatal car accidents.
Forgetting of course that teenagers like gore and being teenagers are
immortal and can disconnect from the imagery as not applicable to
them.

It's common to see wrecked cars along with a warning sign in the US still
as 'publicity' exercises (similarly drug-related ads with before and after
mugshots). I'm surprised that any of this stuff has any effect - it's
probably more of a way that the powers-that-be can claim that they're
Doing Something.

Been quite a series, 6 in one month, of car-deer collisions on A1
between Edinburgh and Berwick

Very common here (more deer than people in this state); seems like at
least once a month I bump into someone who has a vehicle in for repair
following a deer collision.

I heard of one the other day - copper of all people was driving at 120 and
hit a deer. He survived, surprisingly, but the car was demolished and the
deer got thrown 80 feet down the road. Doesn't seem to stop people from
driving too fast or not keeping their wits about them on roads where
there's not much visibility to either side, though.

Ayrshire used to leave wrecks where they landed in the field beside
accident blackspots

I have a photo somewhere I took (50' or so) off the side of the A1 a
few years ago - the car appeared to have either rolled end over end.

In a "no sh*t, Sherlock" moment, some local council oik had decided to
affix a notice to it saying that they were of the opinion it was
undriveable and should be removed - the whole chassis was banana-shaped,
and the only way it was going to be going anywhere was via crane /
flat-bed...

cheers

Jules

On Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:26:48 +0100 (BST) someone who may be "Dave
Liquorice" wrote this:-

One assumes the feed points connect to the track and the overhead wire

In the UK specifically, but the same principles apply elsewhere.

The feeder stations are connected to the contact wire and the return
conductor. The former is the one the pantograph runs under. The
latter is the one which may be seen on small insulators, generally
attached to the side of the structures [1].

At intervals a booster transformer is inserted in the return wire
(these can be seen attached to the side of structures). This acts to
encourage traction current out of the rail which is being used for
traction return [2] and into the return wire [3].

That is the "traditional" system with booster transformers. Other
systems are available and used in places.

(or 3rd rail).

Feeder points are much closer together in this system. Both rails
are used for traction return.

To try and make the lowest resistance return path through the
rails and not the real ground. Were there not problems with lead covered
cables and return currents from trams at one time?

There were alleged to be problems. There were also alleged to be
problems with metal water and gas pipes too. That was a long time
ago though and the engineering is better understood now.

One may download a generic description of the AC system in the late
1980s from http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/docSummary.php?docID=2

One way of understanding the energy contained in these systems is to
remember that they power trains weighing 450 tonnes at 200km/h. The
slightly different system used between London and the Channel Tunnel
powers trains weighing 750 tonnes at 300km/h. Note that in both
cases more than one train may be in a section. That amount of energy
is sitting in the contact wire just waiting to get out.



[1]
http://www.railway-technology.com/contractor_images/keller/4-tram-tracks.jpg
is not 25kV and not in the UK, but one can see the return wire on
the right and the contact wire (and catenary wire) above the track.

[2] in AC systems one rail is used for traction return and one is
used for signalling.

[3] I know that the current is reversing direction 100 times a
second, this is a simplified version.




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

Jules wrote:
On Tue, 09 Jun 2009 00:09:27 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
Indeed. I wonder how many people still have a copy of the insert name
of old internet text file of making stuff that goes bang at home here

One word starting with A, another with C? I recall when reading a copy of
that was almost a rite of passage for any student doing any kind of
sciences degree... funny how times change.

I was thinking of the "big boys book of..." - but there are plenty similar.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Mike Tomlinson
saying something like:

Since the body is mostly water, that's gonna be a hell of a current. In
that clip, there's a bright reddish flash surrounding the body as he
touches the wire. I wonder: is that a camera artifact, or would someone
there have actually seen it?

The damn thing froze on that frame as I was viewing it and his whole
body surface was a sheet of fizzing flame for an instant. Looked as if
it was fairly real and not just an artefact.
Impressive though, and if he'd known just what effect he was going to
have I bet he wishes he wasn't dead.

On Tue, 09 Jun 2009 08:27:16 +0100, David Hansen wrote:

On Tue, 09 Jun 2009 00:09:27 +0100 someone who may be John Rumm
wrote this:-

Indeed. I wonder how many people still have a copy of the insert name
of old internet text file of making stuff that goes bang at home here
sat on their machine having downloaded it many years ago, read a few
bits out of interest, and then forgot all about it...

The abuse of staff and students by Nottingham University is an example
of the persecution of people for the "crime" of having something on
their computers which can be downloaded from the US State Department
website.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...l/2009/feb/23/
hicham-yezza


That case shows the real next stage in 'Political Correctness gone mad' -
for those who haven't seen it, it's about a pair of students who were
reported for having a copy of the 'Al Quaida Training Manual' on a PC. It
was relevant to the course they were taking (although not a set book). It
was also available free from the US Department of Justice website and you
could buy it on Amazon.

Yet still they were reported for having it, the University called the
Police, they were arrested and held for a while uncharged and
interrogated, homes searched etc etc.

And now one of them faces deportation for some very minor errors on his
immigration papers. Sounds like 'look, we found *something* at least' to
me.

I'm sure there are people out there who need deeper investigation and
swift, decisive action taking against them. Doesn't sound like this is
one of them to me.

In message , tony sayer
writes
In article .
com, Martin Bonner scribeth thus
On Jun 8, 11:18*am, "Bob Mannix" wrote:
I believe those

I know you are wrong (in at least one case).

who have thought about others in
life will do so in death and those who have been very self centred and
selfish in life will also be in death.

The mother of a friend of mine committed suicide by jumping in front
of a train (in her seventies). She was one of the least self-centred
people I knew, and in normal circumstances she wouldn't have /dreamed/
of inconveniencing the large number of people that were affected by
the line closure.

Nature of the condition..

She was severely depressed by the death of her
husband the previous year.

And if you know anyone in that state then for Christ sakes don't just
tell them to "cheer up" or "pull yourself together" don't you just think
thats when they desperately -want- to do .. but simply cannot do?.

Yes, exactly

(having been down the dark tunnel and come out the other side myself)

--
geoff

tony sayer wrote:
In article .
com, Martin Bonner scribeth thus
On Jun 8, 11:18 am, "Bob Mannix" wrote:
I believe those
I know you are wrong (in at least one case).

who have thought about others in
life will do so in death and those who have been very self centred and
selfish in life will also be in death.
The mother of a friend of mine committed suicide by jumping in front
of a train (in her seventies). She was one of the least self-centred
people I knew, and in normal circumstances she wouldn't have /dreamed/
of inconveniencing the large number of people that were affected by
the line closure.

Nature of the condition..

She was severely depressed by the death of her
husband the previous year.

And if you know anyone in that state then for Christ sakes don't just
tell them to "cheer up" or "pull yourself together" don't you just think
thats when they desperately -want- to do .. but simply cannot do?.

Depression is a very difficult subject for most anyone to comprehend let
alone deal with, just make sure that they are seeing a doctor or are or
are being treated for it..

And just hope you don't suffer from what is the most awful of mental
afflictions;(...


And strictly one illness where its highly advised not to do DIY
treatments;!..

Other than that ;-)..


I know this is going well OT (weren't we pretty much OT already?), but...

One of the less appreciated effects of hypothyroidism can be severe,
suicidal depression. If that is even a possibility, then getting a test
might help to establish a genuine, physiological cause. (On the other
hand, the medical establishment is quite capable of failing to treat
people even when tests come back showing obvious problems.)

People have been known to self-treat for hypothyroidism and only then
realise how much better they feel psychologically.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

In article , Rod
scribeth thus
tony sayer wrote:
In article .
com, Martin Bonner scribeth thus
On Jun 8, 11:18 am, "Bob Mannix" wrote:
I believe those
I know you are wrong (in at least one case).

who have thought about others in
life will do so in death and those who have been very self centred and
selfish in life will also be in death.
The mother of a friend of mine committed suicide by jumping in front
of a train (in her seventies). She was one of the least self-centred
people I knew, and in normal circumstances she wouldn't have /dreamed/
of inconveniencing the large number of people that were affected by
the line closure.

Nature of the condition..

She was severely depressed by the death of her
husband the previous year.

And if you know anyone in that state then for Christ sakes don't just
tell them to "cheer up" or "pull yourself together" don't you just think
thats when they desperately -want- to do .. but simply cannot do?.

Depression is a very difficult subject for most anyone to comprehend let
alone deal with, just make sure that they are seeing a doctor or are or
are being treated for it..

And just hope you don't suffer from what is the most awful of mental
afflictions;(...


And strictly one illness where its highly advised not to do DIY
treatments;!..

Other than that ;-)..


I know this is going well OT (weren't we pretty much OT already?), but...

One of the less appreciated effects of hypothyroidism can be severe,
suicidal depression. If that is even a possibility, then getting a test
might help to establish a genuine, physiological cause. (On the other
hand, the medical establishment is quite capable of failing to treat
people even when tests come back showing obvious problems.)

I was once told by a psychiatrist that his profession has just come out
of the stone age with what they don't know about the subject;!..

So not that surprising really;!..

After all drugs and research for depressive illnesses don't get that
much attention...


People have been known to self-treat for hypothyroidism and only then
realise how much better they feel psychologically.


--
Tony Sayer

In article , Grimly
Curmudgeon scribeth thus
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Mike Tomlinson
saying something like:

Since the body is mostly water, that's gonna be a hell of a current. In
that clip, there's a bright reddish flash surrounding the body as he
touches the wire. I wonder: is that a camera artifact, or would someone
there have actually seen it?

The damn thing froze on that frame as I was viewing it and his whole
body surface was a sheet of fizzing flame for an instant. Looked as if
it was fairly real and not just an artefact.
Impressive though, and if he'd known just what effect he was going to
have I bet he wishes he wasn't dead.

Theres other clips on the web deranged people up power line poles with
much the same arcing flashover effects;(

Some survive tho;!...
--
Tony Sayer

tony sayer wrote:
In article , Rod
scribeth thus

I know this is going well OT (weren't we pretty much OT already?), but...

One of the less appreciated effects of hypothyroidism can be severe,
suicidal depression. If that is even a possibility, then getting a test
might help to establish a genuine, physiological cause. (On the other
hand, the medical establishment is quite capable of failing to treat
people even when tests come back showing obvious problems.)

I was once told by a psychiatrist that his profession has just come out
of the stone age with what they don't know about the subject;!..

So not that surprising really;!..

After all drugs and research for depressive illnesses don't get that
much attention...


Unless they can flog them like Prozac/fluoxetine has been!

And there is sad irony in existing psychiatric medicines - lithium is
reasonably often used by bipolar disorder. And is likely to cause
thyroid problems in the people who take it. Which can cause depression.

Thank you, Mr Psychiatrist.

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

In article . com,
Jules writes:

Been quite a series, 6 in one month, of car-deer collisions on A1
between Edinburgh and Berwick

Very common here (more deer than people in this state); seems like at
least once a month I bump into someone who has a vehicle in for repair
following a deer collision.

I heard of one the other day - copper of all people was driving at 120 and
hit a deer. He survived, surprisingly, but the car was demolished and the
deer got thrown 80 feet down the road. Doesn't seem to stop people from
driving too fast or not keeping their wits about them on roads where
there's not much visibility to either side, though.

A stretch of road I used to do to work and back every day...
Used to see about 2 deer accidents a week. A couple of times
it was closed due to a (human) fatality. If you hit a deer at,
say, 50MPH, that's the same as having a deer fired at you at
50MPH, and a windscreen is no use as protection against that.

Deer behaviour when crossing the road is rather wierd. Very
often, I'd see a deer poke its head out of the hedgerow up
ahead and look up and down the road, and then proceed to trot
across. Usually, it was just too far away to be hit, so you
might not worry too much as you approach. However, what you
might not realise if you haven't seen it before is that this
one is at the front of the line, and the ones behind proceed
across without bothering to look. It's almost like they're thinking
"Well, he didn't step on a mine, so everything must be OK" ;-)

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
Jules writes:

Been quite a series, 6 in one month, of car-deer collisions on A1
between Edinburgh and Berwick

Very common here (more deer than people in this state); seems like at
least once a month I bump into someone who has a vehicle in for repair
following a deer collision.



Deer behaviour when crossing the road is rather wierd. Very
often, I'd see a deer poke its head out of the hedgerow up
ahead and look up and down the road, and then proceed to trot
across. Usually, it was just too far away to be hit, so you
might not worry too much as you approach. However, what you
might not realise if you haven't seen it before is that this
one is at the front of the line, and the ones behind proceed
across without bothering to look. It's almost like they're thinking
"Well, he didn't step on a mine, so everything must be OK" ;-)

--
Andrew Gabriel

There are not many wild deer near me but I have driven across a lot of
Eastern Europe where there were plenty of wild deer. But what you say is
correct. I saw it several times.

Deer are similar to school children. If one child runs across the road his
friends may follow. I always assume a child running across the road in the
distance is likely to be followed by some his friends following and slow
down.

Adam

ARWadsworth wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article . com,
Jules writes:
Been quite a series, 6 in one month, of car-deer collisions on A1
between Edinburgh and Berwick
Very common here (more deer than people in this state); seems like at
least once a month I bump into someone who has a vehicle in for repair
following a deer collision.



Deer behaviour when crossing the road is rather wierd. Very
often, I'd see a deer poke its head out of the hedgerow up
ahead and look up and down the road, and then proceed to trot
across. Usually, it was just too far away to be hit, so you
might not worry too much as you approach. However, what you
might not realise if you haven't seen it before is that this
one is at the front of the line, and the ones behind proceed
across without bothering to look. It's almost like they're thinking
"Well, he didn't step on a mine, so everything must be OK" ;-)

--
Andrew Gabriel

There are not many wild deer near me but I have driven across a lot of
Eastern Europe where there were plenty of wild deer. But what you say is
correct. I saw it several times.

Deer are similar to school children. If one child runs across the road his
friends may follow. I always assume a child running across the road in the
distance is likely to be followed by some his friends following and slow
down.

plenty of the *******s round here. Behaviour is as described.

Adam

On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:13:44 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Deer behaviour when crossing the road is rather wierd. Very
often, I'd see a deer poke its head out of the hedgerow up
ahead and look up and down the road, and then proceed to trot
across. Usually, it was just too far away to be hit, so you
might not worry too much as you approach. However, what you
might not realise if you haven't seen it before is that this
one is at the front of the line, and the ones behind proceed
across without bothering to look.

Yep. Most I've seen do that in a herd was 12, but usually around here
it's more common to see them in groups of 5 or 6.

Deer are very good for dashing across the road in front of traffic -
they tend to wait right until the last minute. However, worse still,
often I've seen them walk across the road as though with a purpose - only
to get spooked by an approaching vehicle once they're safely across, at
which point they bolt *back* across the road from where they just came,
right into the path of vehicle.

It's the latter one which catches a lot of people out, because they assume
that the hazard's gone long before they're going to get to it. I don't
know why deer do that - maybe the mentality is "it was safe where I was,
now there's a danger, must get back to where I was quick".

We had someone hit a deer right outside the house early one morning last
year; it didn't do much damage to their truck, but the deer landed on the
edge of our front lawn. First we knew of it was when the game warden came
out to shoot it - gunshots that close make for one heck of an alarm clock :-)

(these are White-tailed deer, incidentally - I think the UK ones are
all Roe deer, aren't they, along with smaller Muntjacs?)

cheers

Jules

Dave Liquorice wrote:

And where is the support and logistics for an army at war going to come
from? OK the military are not 100% reliant on the civilian supply chain
but they are to some extent.

Fairly large extent these days. Everything that can be, has been,
outsourced to save the pennies.

Pete

On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:36:29 -0500, Jules wrote:

Deer are very good for dashing across the road in front of traffic -
they tend to wait right until the last minute. However, worse still,
often I've seen them walk across the road as though with a purpose -
only to get spooked by an approaching vehicle once they're safely
across, at which point they bolt *back* across the road from where they
just came, right into the path of vehicle.

Pheasants do that as well. Must be a game thing.

(these are White-tailed deer, incidentally - I think the UK ones are
all Roe deer, aren't they, along with smaller Muntjacs?)

Red are about in the wild as well, not just confined to the Highlands. The
commonest species is the Roe though. I still wouldn't want to hit one at
50mph though. Rabbits can do enough damage...

--
Cheers
Dave.

Jules wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:13:44 +0000, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Deer behaviour when crossing the road is rather wierd. Very
often, I'd see a deer poke its head out of the hedgerow up
ahead and look up and down the road, and then proceed to trot
across. Usually, it was just too far away to be hit, so you
might not worry too much as you approach. However, what you
might not realise if you haven't seen it before is that this
one is at the front of the line, and the ones behind proceed
across without bothering to look.

Yep. Most I've seen do that in a herd was 12, but usually around here
it's more common to see them in groups of 5 or 6.

When I first moved her in 1993, I was absolutely wowed to see 5, all
together.

Last winter, I saw 50..
We cant shoot the bloody things fast enough.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:36:29 -0500, Jules wrote:

Deer are very good for dashing across the road in front of traffic -
they tend to wait right until the last minute. However, worse still,
often I've seen them walk across the road as though with a purpose -
only to get spooked by an approaching vehicle once they're safely
across, at which point they bolt *back* across the road from where they
just came, right into the path of vehicle.

Pheasants do that as well. Must be a game thing.

(these are White-tailed deer, incidentally - I think the UK ones are
all Roe deer, aren't they, along with smaller Muntjacs?)

Red are about in the wild as well, not just confined to the Highlands. The
commonest species is the Roe though. I still wouldn't want to hit one at
50mph though. Rabbits can do enough damage...


It writes the car off. We've got roe and fallow here.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember David Hansen
saying something like:

However, the showing of a film in school which showed the true
effect of motor vehicle crashes on humans did not stop one pupil in
my year riding a motorcycle into a horse at high speed. It was fatal
for him (and I imagine the horse). That does not mean the film was
ineffective by the way, only that it was not 100% effective.

What makes you think the bike rider was at fault?

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember (Andrew
Gabriel) saying something like:

I'm not thinking of a trip of the breaker due to overload but due to earth
leakage.

The circuit is earth return (track), so you can't measure earth leakage,
as it's not insulated from earth.

I used to think so, but a flashover from rail to actual earth via a
branch I threw onto a rail convinced me otherwise. This was about 45
years ago on an 25kV OHL urban system.
Fwir, it was a hot summer day and the weather had been like that for a
week at least, so I assume the normal earthy arrangements were
defective.
Makes me glad I didn't hold on to the branch...

On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 03:11:46 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
When I first moved her in 1993, I was absolutely wowed to see 5, all
together.

Last winter, I saw 50..
We cant shoot the bloody things fast enough.

You obviously need more through-traffic to take care of them :-)

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember David Hansen
saying something like:

However, the showing of a film in school which showed the true
effect of motor vehicle crashes on humans did not stop one pupil in
my year riding a motorcycle into a horse at high speed. It was fatal
for him (and I imagine the horse). That does not mean the film was
ineffective by the way, only that it was not 100% effective.

What makes you think the bike rider was at fault?

Because animals are unpredictable and he should make allowances.
Its a bit like that biker that killed himself on the front of a stationary
tractor.. in no way was the tractor at fault even though the bikers stupid
parents wanted the driver percecuted for being there.
The roads are full of stuff that you can hit when you drive like an idiot,
the best that can be hoped for is that the idiots only kill themselves.

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:36:29 -0500, Jules wrote:

Deer are very good for dashing across the road in front of traffic -
they tend to wait right until the last minute. However, worse still,
often I've seen them walk across the road as though with a purpose -
only to get spooked by an approaching vehicle once they're safely
across, at which point they bolt *back* across the road from where they
just came, right into the path of vehicle.

Pheasants do that as well. Must be a game thing.

(these are White-tailed deer, incidentally - I think the UK ones are
all Roe deer, aren't they, along with smaller Muntjacs?)

Red are about in the wild as well, not just confined to the Highlands. The
commonest species is the Roe though. I still wouldn't want to hit one at
50mph though. Rabbits can do enough damage...

--
Cheers
Dave.

Damage like this (not for animal lovers)

http://tinypic.com/r/2hpocp0/5
http://tinypic.com/r/4rxclw/5
http://tinypic.com/r/i2ksw9/5
http://tinypic.com/r/308d56d/5
http://tinypic.com/r/5z17uv/5
http://tinypic.com/r/4sjguh/5

Adam

On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:26:16 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember David Hansen
saying something like:

However, the showing of a film in school which showed the true
effect of motor vehicle crashes on humans did not stop one pupil in
my year riding a motorcycle into a horse at high speed. It was fatal
for him (and I imagine the horse). That does not mean the film was
ineffective by the way, only that it was not 100% effective.

What makes you think the bike rider was at fault?

Because animals are unpredictable and he should make allowances.
Its a bit like that biker that killed himself on the front of a stationary
tractor.. in no way was the tractor at fault even though the bikers stupid
parents wanted the driver percecuted for being there.
The roads are full of stuff that you can hit when you drive like an idiot,
the best that can be hoped for is that the idiots only kill themselves.

Being able to stop in less than half the distance for which the road is
visibly or actually clear and not driving where the road is already
occupied or about to be were a couple of things that I was taught by the
time I was about 6yo - seems to work most of the time.
--
Peter.
The head of a pin will hold more angels if
it's been flattened with an angel-grinder.

PeterC wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:26:16 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember David Hansen
saying something like:

However, the showing of a film in school which showed the true
effect of motor vehicle crashes on humans did not stop one pupil in
my year riding a motorcycle into a horse at high speed. It was fatal
for him (and I imagine the horse). That does not mean the film was
ineffective by the way, only that it was not 100% effective.
What makes you think the bike rider was at fault?
Because animals are unpredictable and he should make allowances.
Its a bit like that biker that killed himself on the front of a stationary
tractor.. in no way was the tractor at fault even though the bikers stupid
parents wanted the driver percecuted for being there.
The roads are full of stuff that you can hit when you drive like an idiot,
the best that can be hoped for is that the idiots only kill themselves.

Being able to stop in less than half the distance for which the road is
visibly or actually clear and not driving where the road is already
occupied or about to be were a couple of things that I was taught by the
time I was about 6yo - seems to work most of the time.


So, what speed is that when the distance to the side is about..errm 3
feet to the woods?

6mph or so, including thinking time?

I have certainly seen the odd cyclist at 12mph fall off on account of deer.

On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:41:33 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

PeterC wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:26:16 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember David Hansen
saying something like:

However, the showing of a film in school which showed the true
effect of motor vehicle crashes on humans did not stop one pupil in
my year riding a motorcycle into a horse at high speed. It was fatal
for him (and I imagine the horse). That does not mean the film was
ineffective by the way, only that it was not 100% effective.
What makes you think the bike rider was at fault?
Because animals are unpredictable and he should make allowances.
Its a bit like that biker that killed himself on the front of a stationary
tractor.. in no way was the tractor at fault even though the bikers stupid
parents wanted the driver percecuted for being there.
The roads are full of stuff that you can hit when you drive like an idiot,
the best that can be hoped for is that the idiots only kill themselves.

Being able to stop in less than half the distance for which the road is
visibly or actually clear and not driving where the road is already
occupied or about to be were a couple of things that I was taught by the
time I was about 6yo - seems to work most of the time.

So, what speed is that when the distance to the side is about..errm 3
feet to the woods?

6mph or so, including thinking time?

I have certainly seen the odd cyclist at 12mph fall off on account of deer.

Can't do anything about sudden 'apparitions'. I was once going slowly on a
small motorbike and a ped ran out and hit me in the side - my speed,
sideways, was 0!
--
Peter.
The head of a pin will hold more angels if
it's been flattened with an angel-grinder.

In article ,
"ARWadsworth" writes:

Damage like this (not for animal lovers)

http://tinypic.com/r/2hpocp0/5
http://tinypic.com/r/4rxclw/5
http://tinypic.com/r/i2ksw9/5
http://tinypic.com/r/308d56d/5
http://tinypic.com/r/5z17uv/5
http://tinypic.com/r/4sjguh/5

That driver was lucky (at 140MPH).
This one not so lucky...

http://www.ushuntingtoday.com/photos.../accident.html

There are also a number of pictures recorded by the Google
streetview car which recorded its hit on a dear (font view
of it hopping in front, rear view of it laying in the road,
and distant view of it on the verge). Google have taken the
pictures down, but lots of people saved them before hand.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

PeterC wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:41:33 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

PeterC wrote:
On Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:26:16 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

"Grimly Curmudgeon" wrote in message
...
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember David Hansen
saying something like:

However, the showing of a film in school which showed the true
effect of motor vehicle crashes on humans did not stop one pupil in
my year riding a motorcycle into a horse at high speed. It was fatal
for him (and I imagine the horse). That does not mean the film was
ineffective by the way, only that it was not 100% effective.
What makes you think the bike rider was at fault?
Because animals are unpredictable and he should make allowances.
Its a bit like that biker that killed himself on the front of a stationary
tractor.. in no way was the tractor at fault even though the bikers stupid
parents wanted the driver percecuted for being there.
The roads are full of stuff that you can hit when you drive like an idiot,
the best that can be hoped for is that the idiots only kill themselves.
Being able to stop in less than half the distance for which the road is
visibly or actually clear and not driving where the road is already
occupied or about to be were a couple of things that I was taught by the
time I was about 6yo - seems to work most of the time.
So, what speed is that when the distance to the side is about..errm 3
feet to the woods?

6mph or so, including thinking time?

I have certainly seen the odd cyclist at 12mph fall off on account of deer.

Can't do anything about sudden 'apparitions'. I was once going slowly on a
small motorbike and a ped ran out and hit me in the side - my speed,
sideways, was 0!

Precisely. In the case of the ped, the speed should be low enough the
stupid ******* doesn't die, and in the case of deer, slow enough that
YOU don't die. 50mph seems to be 'no car, but I wasn't scratched' on
most small cars..

(Andrew Gabriel) gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

This one not so lucky...

http://www.ushuntingtoday.com/photos.../accident.html

I'm very surprised that there's not large amounts of vomit all over that
dash...

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "dennis@home"
saying something like:

What makes you think the bike rider was at fault?

Because animals are unpredictable and he should make allowances.

Right; so in your perfect driving world he'd have stopped dead and
waited until the horse decided what it wanted to do. Uhuh.

Nice one.

Back in the real world, I slow down for walking pet food and give them a
wide berth where I can, but there have been many occasions where, if the
nag was skittish, it could have bolted for me.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember The Natural Philosopher
saying something like:

I have certainly seen the odd cyclist at 12mph fall off on account of deer.

I've seen plenty fall of on account of beer.

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"ARWadsworth" writes:

Damage like this (not for animal lovers)

http://tinypic.com/r/2hpocp0/5
http://tinypic.com/r/4rxclw/5
http://tinypic.com/r/i2ksw9/5
http://tinypic.com/r/308d56d/5
http://tinypic.com/r/5z17uv/5
http://tinypic.com/r/4sjguh/5

That driver was lucky (at 140MPH).
This one not so lucky...

http://www.ushuntingtoday.com/photos.../accident.html

There are also a number of pictures recorded by the Google
streetview car which recorded its hit on a dear (font view
of it hopping in front, rear view of it laying in the road,
and distant view of it on the verge). Google have taken the
pictures down, but lots of people saved them before hand.

--
Andrew Gabriel


Ouch.

Adam

Adrian wrote:
(Andrew Gabriel) gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

This one not so lucky...

http://www.ushuntingtoday.com/photos.../accident.html

I'm very surprised that there's not large amounts of vomit all over that
dash...

As I said, 50mph the cars a wreck but you aren't, at 70mph,( is that
deer blood or human blood, or both)..could easily decapitate you.

No airbag either..

The Natural Philosopher gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

This one not so lucky...

http://www.ushuntingtoday.com/photos.../accident.html

I'm very surprised that there's not large amounts of vomit all over
that dash...

As I said, 50mph the cars a wreck but you aren't, at 70mph,( is that
deer blood or human blood, or both)..could easily decapitate you.

No airbag either..

Nah, very little deer actually got into the car - the driver would have
been physically almost completely uninjured. Mentally, perhaps they got
off a little less lightly.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher writes:
Adrian wrote:
(Andrew Gabriel) gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

This one not so lucky...

http://www.ushuntingtoday.com/photos.../accident.html

I'm very surprised that there's not large amounts of vomit all over that
dash...

As I said, 50mph the cars a wreck but you aren't, at 70mph,( is that

A deer hitting you at 50MPH kills you - that was part of one
of the campaigns in one area of driver deaths, where you
couldn't get above 50 anyway just because of the road alone.

They're designed with little spindly snap-off legs to hold the
body weight at windscreen smashing height, and the only way
you'd survive that is if you don't hit square on with the body
in front of you. (The one above looks like just the head went
through the windscreen.)

deer blood or human blood, or both)..could easily decapitate you.

One I read about on the road I used to use was killed by a
crushed chest -- ribs all smashed into all the chest organs.
It's also common to miss the deer, but smash into a tree.

No airbag either..

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article , Andrew Gabriel
scribeth thus
In article ,
"ARWadsworth" writes:

Damage like this (not for animal lovers)

http://tinypic.com/r/2hpocp0/5
http://tinypic.com/r/4rxclw/5
http://tinypic.com/r/i2ksw9/5
http://tinypic.com/r/308d56d/5
http://tinypic.com/r/5z17uv/5
http://tinypic.com/r/4sjguh/5

That driver was lucky (at 140MPH).
This one not so lucky...

http://www.ushuntingtoday.com/photos.../accident.html


Was that just the deer or a mix;!....


--
Tony Sayer

In article , Grimly
Curmudgeon scribeth thus
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember (Andrew
Gabriel) saying something like:

I'm not thinking of a trip of the breaker due to overload but due to earth
leakage.

The circuit is earth return (track), so you can't measure earth leakage,
as it's not insulated from earth.

I used to think so, but a flashover from rail to actual earth via a
branch I threw onto a rail convinced me otherwise. This was about 45
years ago on an 25kV OHL urban system.

U vandal or was this a ligit experiment..

Fwir, it was a hot summer day and the weather had been like that for a
week at least, so I assume the normal earthy arrangements were
defective.
Makes me glad I didn't hold on to the branch...

--
Tony Sayer