"Doctor Drivel" wrote:
"Bruce" wrote in message
news
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

A German taxi.

Sturdy, robust, safe, reliable, extremely comfortable. No wonder taxi
drivers (and their passengers) love them!

May as well get London Black cab then.


Neither comfortable nor reliable, alas. And I don't like the idea of
total strangers trying to flag me down. Nice try, though!


The best for ride, economy, reliability and image is a Prius.


Fuel economy is no better than an average petrol car of the same
performance and far worse than a comparable diesel. The Prius is a
triumph of image over function, and a complete waste of money.

Bruce wrote:
"Bob Mannix" wrote:
I hired a Skoda Octavia diesel estate - it was completely flawless and the
fact that it was a diesel was, to all intents and purposes, undetectable. A
very good car if you are after vfm, I would say.


I own a Skoda Octavia diesel estate, and it certainly doesn't resemble
your description. It is noisy and harsh, with plenty of vibration.

My four year old Octavia Mk1 diesel estate is a bit noisy, but nowhere
near the racket of a London taxi - which round here is the first
auditory experience that most folks have of a diesel car.

Ye soon get to tune the din out at cruising speed and it disapears under
road noise - the latter I find more repetative and tiring. In mine
(automatic) the gearbox doesn't change gear that much over most
acceleration (except kickdown) so there is less of a racket from shifting.

However, The Octavia Mk2 (which I am rather keen to trade up to) is quieter.

--
Adrian C

Adrian C wrote:

Bruce wrote:
"Bob Mannix" wrote:
I hired a Skoda Octavia diesel estate - it was completely flawless and the
fact that it was a diesel was, to all intents and purposes, undetectable. A
very good car if you are after vfm, I would say.


I own a Skoda Octavia diesel estate, and it certainly doesn't resemble
your description. It is noisy and harsh, with plenty of vibration.

My four year old Octavia Mk1 diesel estate is a bit noisy, but nowhere
near the racket of a London taxi - which round here is the first
auditory experience that most folks have of a diesel car.


London taxis have been fitted with various engines in recent years. The
VM engine is probably the worst for noise.


Ye soon get to tune the din out at cruising speed and it disapears under
road noise - the latter I find more repetative and tiring. In mine
(automatic) the gearbox doesn't change gear that much over most
acceleration (except kickdown) so there is less of a racket from shifting.

However, The Octavia Mk2 (which I am rather keen to trade up to) is quieter.


I can assure you, it isn't much quieter. It's usefully bigger and has a
better ride, but the diesel is still noisy. If I am on call I sometimes
have to go out in the early hours. Out of courtesy to my neighbours,
during my on call periods I park the car away from our houses so I don't
wake anyone up when starting.

My Merc is quieter, but it doesn't get used for the work I get called
out to do. It still sounds like a truck when cold.

"pcb1962" wrote in message
...
On 27 Jan, 12:54, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
"pcb1962" wrote in message

...

On 27 Jan, 10:42, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:

there is drivability, noise, smelly, vibrations, agricultural sounds,
etc.

Clearly you have not driven an Audi or similar marque produced in the
past 10 years or you would know that none of the above apply.

I drove a Peugeot turbo diesel. Diesel cars are waste of time for the many
reasons given.

there is drivability,

So Le Mans has been won for the past 3 years in a row by an
undriveable car?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_R10


So pointless. They go Mach 2 in jets, I don't see them in cars.

noise, smelly, vibrations, agricultural sounds,

Take a trip to your local Audi dealer then come back and say these
again.
The vast majority of people would not be able to tell that my Audi is
a diesel, either from the outside or the inside.


What I wrote still stands. Next time buy a proper car like a Prius.


noise, smelly, vibrations, agricultural sounds,

Appalling, truly appalling.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Clearly you have not driven an Audi or similar marque produced in the
past 10 years or you would know that none of the above apply.

I drove a Peugeot turbo diesel. Diesel cars are waste of time for the
many reasons given.

There's

Please eff off as you are total idiotic plantpot.

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:
"Bruce" wrote in message
news
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

A German taxi.

Sturdy, robust, safe, reliable, extremely comfortable. No wonder taxi
drivers (and their passengers) love them!

May as well get London Black cab then.

Neither comfortable nor reliable, alas. And I don't like the idea of
total strangers trying to flag me down. Nice try, though!

The best for ride, economy, reliability and image is a Prius.

Fuel economy is no better than an average petrol car of the same
performance and far worse than a comparable diesel. The Prius is a
triumph of image over function, and a complete waste of money.

65mpg in London - far superior. The city is crawling with them. And they
are improving the performance with coming models. The drive is peerless.
Worth buying for the drive alone. Silent at traffic lights and when stopped.
I hate vibrating engines and at tick-over a diesel is the pits. The
difference from a diesel and a Prius is night and day. Many hybrids are
coming onto the market. The Chevy Volt is coming this year. Electric
motors propel the car.

"Doctor Drivel" gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying:

The best for ride, economy, reliability and image is a Prius.

Fuel economy is no better than an average petrol car of the same
performance and far worse than a comparable diesel. The Prius is a
triumph of image over function, and a complete waste of money.

65mpg in London - far superior. The city is crawling with them.

Which is more down to a peculiar wrinkle in the congestion charge than
any other merits.

In article ,
Adrian C wrote:
but nowhere
near the racket of a London taxi - which round here is the first
auditory experience that most folks have of a diesel car.

Because they have such a long service life, many London black cabs have
pretty crude engines of an old design. Although new ones should be better.

http://www.lti.co.uk/tx4/engine/

--
*Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Bruce wrote:
If I am on call I sometimes
have to go out in the early hours. Out of courtesy to my neighbours,
during my on call periods I park the car away from our houses so I don't
wake anyone up when starting.

That sounds jolly nice of you. Well done!

My Merc is quieter, but it doesn't get used for the work I get called
out to do. It still sounds like a truck when cold.

What you need is a diesel-electric...

Now, who made them?

--
Adrian C

"Adrian" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying:

The best for ride, economy, reliability and image is a Prius.

Fuel economy is no better than an average petrol car of the same
performance and far worse than a comparable diesel. The Prius is a
triumph of image over function, and a complete waste of money.

65mpg in London - far superior. The city is crawling with them.

Which

You must eff off as you are a total plantpot.

On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 10:42:16 +0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:
Buy a Honda or Toyota petrol car. Economical and highly reliable.

I think we've got about 162K on our '92 Toyota with no major mechanical
ailments yet, but as it's a US car "economical" is highly subjective
:-)

(actually, considering it's a 3L engine it doesn't do too badly for
itself)

Preferably buy a Prius.

Urgh.

Hugo Nebula wrote:

IME diesels give about 40% better MPG than petrol, and with diesel
currently about 12p/litre more than petrol, it's still less on fuel
costs. However, there are other costs to consider such as the initial
purchase price and any additional servicing. The higher your annual
mileage the less these are a factor.

In mine, I can fill the cabin with a load of junk or bodies (living I
should add) and still cruise motorways building speed and overtaking
without shifting down gears and taking huge gulps of fuel from the tank.
Doing that in the previous petrol car with near the same engine size
(2 litre) and laden similary, the acceleration ability in gear is not as
good.

However, if I were a driver in London (or any of the big cities) running
around unladen and wanted a smaller lighter car, the entertainment
choice would be petrol - and I'd trash the gearbox, run the traffic
lights, flatten someone elses dog, advance 0-60 years in 10 seconds and
be in the grave soon after the 11'th.

--
Adrian C

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Because they have such a long service life, many London black cabs have
pretty crude engines of an old design. Although new ones should be better.

http://www.lti.co.uk/tx4/engine/


With direct injection, the VM diesels are notoriously noisy. A relative
runs two "black cabs" and much prefers the previous Nissan engine. He
lives in an upmarket residential area and when working early mornings,
his neighbours aren't pleased to hear his VM Motori R 425 DOHC start up.
;-)

Adrian C wrote:
Bruce wrote:
If I am on call I sometimes
have to go out in the early hours. Out of courtesy to my neighbours,
during my on call periods I park the car away from our houses so I don't
wake anyone up when starting.

That sounds jolly nice of you. Well done!

Thanks. I try to treat my neighbours with the consideration I would
like from them. Mostly it works well. ;-)

My Merc is quieter, but it doesn't get used for the work I get called
out to do. It still sounds like a truck when cold.

What you need is a diesel-electric...

Now, who made them?

The first Toyota Prius was available as a diesel-electric. The current
and forthcoming new models are petrol only, and completely pointless.

On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 14:46:37 -0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:

-------------------8

You must eff off as you are a total plantpot.

Monotony is a sure sign that you're due a refresh:

http://tinyurl.com/bl4pcf

On Jan 25, 6:57*pm, "Mr Sandman" wrote:
I always went for diesel in the past, but now, with it being so much more
expensive than petrol, am i better going with petrol instead? *I.e. instead
of a ford focus 1.8 diesel, buy a 1.4 petrol?

Any opinions?

Steve

http://preview.tinyurl.com/aowyh4

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
Adrian C wrote:
Bruce wrote:
If I am on call I sometimes
have to go out in the early hours. Out of courtesy to my neighbours,
during my on call periods I park the car away from our houses so I don't
wake anyone up when starting.

That sounds jolly nice of you. Well done!

Thanks. I try to treat my neighbours with the consideration I would
like from them. Mostly it works well. ;-)

My Merc is quieter, but it doesn't get used for the work I get called
out to do. It still sounds like a truck when cold.

What you need is a diesel-electric...

Now, who made them?

The first Toyota Prius was available as a diesel-electric. The current
and forthcoming new models are petrol only, and completely pointless.

It was never diesel. The current models are brilliant in every respect. A
true ground breaking car setting the trend.

"Adrian C" wrote in message
...

However, if I were a driver in London (or any of the big cities) running
around unladen and wanted a smaller lighter car, the entertainment choice
would be petrol - and I'd trash the gearbox,

Get a Prius as they do not have an in-line gearbox. Brill to drive.

"Man at B&Q" wrote in message
...
On Jan 25, 6:57 pm, "Mr Sandman" wrote:
I always went for diesel in the past, but now, with it being so much more
expensive than petrol, am i better going with petrol instead? I.e. instead
of a ford focus 1.8 diesel, buy a 1.4 petrol?

Any opinions?

Steve

http://preview.tinyurl.com/aowyh4

Diesel cars 'take decades to become cost effective'
Diesel cars can take decades to provide their owners with financial
benefits, according to new research.

"According to research by car experts Parker's a BMW 318 diesel could take
28 years to recoup the extra cost."

"Buying a diesel Mini could take the driver up to seven years to break even.
A Ford Mondeo diesel could take six years."

Adrian C wrote:
Bruce wrote:
If I am on call I sometimes
have to go out in the early hours. Out of courtesy to my neighbours,
during my on call periods I park the car away from our houses so I don't
wake anyone up when starting.

That sounds jolly nice of you. Well done!

My Merc is quieter, but it doesn't get used for the work I get called
out to do. It still sounds like a truck when cold.

What you need is a diesel-electric...

Now, who made them?

Brush?

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

"clumsy *******" wrote in message
...
pcb1962 wrote:

there is drivability, noise, smelly, vibrations, agricultural sounds,
etc.

Clearly you have not driven an Audi or similar marque produced in the
past 10 years or you would know that none of the above apply.

the fuel *is* dirty when you fill up, beyond that the drawbacks are
pretty much overcome now.

The drawback have not been overcome at all. To make diesel perform anywhere
near like a petrol car complexity has to be introduced. Dual mass flywheels
and turbos. If any of these go then expect a big bill. Modern injection
system are more complex than the petrol equivalent. Also when a clutch goes
they replace the dual mass flywheel as well, and the cost of clutch
replacement can be £800. Then if a turbo goes!!!

Why buy a car that has potential massive bills, that has no advantage over a
petrol engine whatsoever. Madness!! And they also emit soot that is
cacogenic and blackens buildings.

They are a waste of expensive, soot emitting time.

"clumsy *******" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

Preferably buy a Prius.

why? You can use less fuel in lots of other cars.

You can't. Not a car of that size, performance and refinement you can't.
You have been reading the propaganda reports as Toyota stole the lead.

Of course if you do 100mpg for 100 miles it will do around 38-40 mpg, but
average driving is what matters and it is unbeatable in mpg, especially in
towns and cities. 65mpg around London. And it doesn't kill the planet like
the tractor engines do and is whisper quiet.

"clumsy *******" wrote in message
...
Bruce wrote:

The best for ride, economy, reliability and image is a Prius.


Fuel economy is no better than an average petrol car of the same
performance and far worse than a comparable diesel. The Prius is a
triumph of image over function, and a complete waste of money.

unless you want low city centre emissions, maybe for the London CC
area, otherwise pointless.

Another propaganda reader.

"clumsy *******" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

and the agricultural sounds, vibrations and performance of a diesel.

the sound isn't great, the vibrations minimal and the performance more
usable as its at lower revs
(I'm comparing my BMW 3 series petrol to the diesel version I hire
abroad)

Stop scraping the barrel. They stink in all aspects. And are expensive to
run.

In article ,
Bruce wrote:
The first Toyota Prius was available as a diesel-electric.

Not so.

--
*Eschew obfuscation *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"According to research by car experts Parker's a BMW 318 diesel could
take 28 years to recoup the extra cost."

Did the same article say how long it would take to recover the extra cost
of a Prius? No? Wonder why...

--
*Virtual reality is its own reward*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Bruce" wrote in message
...
Adrian C wrote:
Bruce wrote:
If I am on call I sometimes
have to go out in the early hours. Out of courtesy to my neighbours,
during my on call periods I park the car away from our houses so I don't
wake anyone up when starting.

That sounds jolly nice of you. Well done!

Thanks. I try to treat my neighbours with the consideration I would
like from them. Mostly it works well. ;-)

My Merc is quieter, but it doesn't get used for the work I get called
out to do. It still sounds like a truck when cold.

What you need is a diesel-electric...

Now, who made them?

The first Toyota Prius was available as a diesel-electric. The current
and forthcoming new models are petrol only, and completely pointless.

The new Prius just announced:
http://www.hybridcars.com/compacts-s...-overview.html
http://www.hybridcars.com/hybrid-dri...ius-25452.html
Swish...........

"clumsy *******" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

Of course if you do 100mph for 100 miles it will do around 38-40 mpg, but
average driving is what matters and it is unbeatable in mpg, especially in
towns and cities. 65mpg around London.

in other words its "alright" for what its designed for, mostly city
centre driving. Driven in a the normal mix of motorway and town you
can get almost the same consumption from a Cooper S!

Read what I wrote!!! Stop telling yourself lies and believing them. I wrote
"but average driving is what matters and it is unbeatable in mpg". In pure
city driving it is unbeatable. Then to drive it, is the best - seamless
ansd swish.

A Cooper is tiny compared to a Prius, which is a sizable car.

The new sportier looking Prius, which in the US urban/highway test does
60.24 (UK). It will do more around cities only probably about 70mpg. About
10 secs 0 to 60mph if that turns you on.
http://www.hybridcars.com/news/2010-...mpg-25414.html

"clumsy *******" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

the sound isn't great, the vibrations minimal and the performance more
usable as its at lower revs
(I'm comparing my BMW 3 series petrol to the diesel version I hire
abroad)

Stop scraping the barrel. They stink in all aspects. And are expensive to
run.

you have possibly made a point about complexity and possible potential
repair bills if you buy an older car, the rest is fantasy in my
experience.

You must in fantasy land to tell yourself such lies and believe them.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
"According to research by car experts Parker's a BMW 318 diesel could
take 28 years to recoup the extra cost."

Did

Pleas eff off you are a plantpot.

"clumsy *******" wrote in message
...
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

"According to research by car experts Parker's a BMW 318 diesel could
take 28 years to recoup the extra cost."

Did the same article say how long it would take to recover the extra cost
of a Prius? No? Wonder why...

you dont get something for nothing, if you want two lots of power
source there's a price to pay in fuel consumption and complexity,
which apparently only applies to diesels.....

That is right. The Prius is simple - it has fewer components. It doesn't
even have an in-line gearbox. The Chevy Volt (electric drive only) promises
to be simpler too.

"clumsy *******" wrote in message
...
clumsy ******* wrote:

Of course if you do 100mpg for 100 miles it will do around 38-40 mpg, but
average driving is what matters and it is unbeatable in mpg, especially
in
towns and cities. 65mpg around London.

in other words its "alright" for what its designed for, mostly city
centre driving. Driven in a the normal mix of motorway and town you
can get almost the same consumption from a Cooper S!

"http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/used_car_reviews/article3552994.ece"

That was mainly on a motorway. How much over a year in normal driving? er,
er, er.... The new Prius averages 60mpg in the US mixed test. Better than
the old model. And doesn't sound or feel like a tractor.

On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:50:47 +0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:
The new Prius averages 60mpg in the US mixed test.

US gallons or UK gallons?

"clumsy *******" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

in other words its "alright" for what its designed for, mostly city
centre driving. Driven in a the normal mix of motorway and town you
can get almost the same consumption from a Cooper S!

Read what I wrote!!! Stop telling yourself lies and believing them. I
wrote
"but average driving is what matters and it is unbeatable in mpg". In
pure
city driving it is unbeatable. Then to drive it, is the best - seamless
ansd swish.

Read what I wrote!!! Stop telling yourself lies and believing them.
Average driving for me is a mix of motorway and urban, it is for most
people.

Most people do not go on motorways much at all. And as you have ignored,
the new Prius does 60mpg mixed highway and urban (US test). More in 80-90%
urban, as most people do.

The cars also does not pollute like a crap diesel. And the ride is
unrivalled. It is wroth buying for the ride alone. But you like tractors
that may cost fortune to fix when the complex bits fail. £800 to change a
clutch!! The Prius doesn't have one and not even and in-line gearbox
either. The new Chevy Volt will no mechanical transmission whatsoever.

Stop telling yourself lies and believing them.

"Jules" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:50:47 +0000, Doctor Drivel wrote:
The new Prius averages 60mpg in the US mixed test.

US gallons or UK gallons?

UK

"clumsy *******" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

That was mainly on a motorway. How much over a year in normal driving?

for me and many people most mileage is on motorways. The Prius is OK
for city only drivers where the better option is possibly PT.

I have one. It is doing just under 60mpg. And I do mixed motorway and city.
About 75/25%. When in city only, it does around 65mpg. I does not hang
about, it is brisk. 100mpg top end which I have never reached - the MGB did
only 85mph. The new Prius is even better. It is better looking, longer,
wider, faster acceleration an greater economy...and still the brilliant
unrivalled drive. We shall see what the Chevy Volt does.

Don't read propaganda, of which much has been directed at the Prius by the
kill the planet brigade and the competition. Selective tests to make sure it
underperforms to a tractor, etc. Want a hybrid car that tears up the road?
Look at the Lexus.

If all cities had only the Prius and hybrid busses and taxis then the cities
would be wonderful.

"clumsy *******" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

Read what I wrote!!! Stop telling yourself lies and believing them.
Average driving for me is a mix of motorway and urban, it is for most
people.

Most people do not go on motorways much at all.

Its not just motorways, its the major road system of the country for
which the Prius isnt anything to get excited about.

It is not race car. We have tracks for them. It can keep up with the
traffic on any road.

As I said if you stay in town all the time use public transport, those
of us who actually go anywhere will not be getting a Prius.

You and tractors deserve each other.

"clumsy *******" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

you have possibly made a point about complexity and possible potential
repair bills if you buy an older car, the rest is fantasy in my
experience.

You must in fantasy land to tell yourself such lies and believe them.

you are becoming tedious,

You mean I am lacing you with pure logic.

road tests tell me the Prius is nothing special
for fuel consumption.

The new Prius is 60mpg mixed. You have been told that many times but it does
not sink in. BTW, I hate BMWs and Mercs. I will not have a tattoo to drive
one. knobheads cars! Nothing personal.

You go on about complex diesels and choose
instead one of the most complex modest cars on the road.

You have already been told. The Prius is not complex at all. There is less
components in it - not even an in-line gearbox. It is just that your mind
can't figure it out.

"clumsy *******" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

The Prius is simple - it has fewer components. It doesn't
even have an in-line gearbox.

it has a gearbox, it has regenerative braking, it has two engines, how
is this so simple?

No in-line gearbox. One engine and one motor. A normal engine has a motor
attached to it. The new BMWs use it to stop and star the engine at the
lights - like Pirus. For your understanding:

Split a powertrain into three modules:

1 petrol motor,
2 gearbox (CVT or otherwise),
3 diff/wheels It is in sequence,

1, 2, 3. Simple.

The petrol motor need module 2 because of its poor torque delivery
characteristics.

An electric motor has modules 1 and 3, eliminating 2, as it can deliver 100%
torque to module 3 on start up. Super simple. THE BEST is an electric
motor.

A Prius has modules 1 and 3, like an electric motor. In module 1 it has an
electric and petrol motor. In module 1 it has a mechanism to automatically
combine the power/torque of an electric and petrol motor to give the torque
delivery characteristics of an electric motor (called a power splitter).

Some experimental petrol engines can have modules 1 and 3 only, eliminating
2. This is by automatically varying the valve timing by using solenoid
controlled valves. This will deliver the torque to module 3 similar to an
electric motor. As with a Prius an auto mechanism is there to present to
module 3 torque characteristics like an electric motor.

So, no in-line gearbox, gear cogs, or CVT or otherwise in a Prius.

The point behind a Pirus is to:

- Have no to very low emissions, especially in urban conditions
- reduce fuel consumption, and hence emissions

Ferdinand Porsche raced (and won) a sort of hybrid in the early 1900s. They
were petrol motors - generators - electric motor - diff/wheels. In
effect an electric CVT "gearbox", all in-line, where the generator and
electric motor replaced a mechanical gearbox/CVT. The generator/electric
motor does the same job as a mechanical gearbox/CVT. A Prius does not use
this setup at all, it has the two motors in parrallel.

The Prius doesn't have an "in-line" transmission (gearbox/CVT). The "clever
part" is that is combines the outputs of the electric and petrol motors to
give the characteristics of one electric motor, presenting the
characteristics of an electric motor to the diff/wheels. Module 3 thinks
that its input is an electric motor.

"clumsy *******" wrote in message
...
"Doctor Drivel" wrote:

Its not just motorways, its the major road system of the country for
which the Prius isnt anything to get excited about.

It is not race car. We have tracks for them. It can keep up with the
traffic on any road.

nobody is talking about racing cars

The Prius can keep up, and beat, with all cars on brisk A roads and
motorways. You can do 100mph anyway.

As I said if you stay in town all the time use public transport, those
of us who actually go anywhere will not be getting a Prius.

You and tractors deserve each other.

shrug, I own a petrol car anyway.

You should have tractor.