One of my pet hates is lighting positions (or any other place where
wires are used in non obvious ways that differ from their colouring)
where the original installer obviously could not be arsed to flag the
wires with coloured tape or sleeving when required (e.g. the wire
carrying switched live from the switch). So when changing a fitting or
lamp etc I will normally correct this as a matter of routine.

Now traditionally one would flag the black wire with red, or these days
the blue with brown. It just occurred to me that now the new colours are
mandatory, what is the correct procedure in a mixed colour installation?
Should one still flag black wires with red, or should one now use brown?
Appendix 7 of BS7671 does not seem to give an answer.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
One of my pet hates is lighting positions (or any other place where
wires are used in non obvious ways that differ from their colouring)
where the original installer obviously could not be arsed to flag the
wires with coloured tape or sleeving when required (e.g. the wire
carrying switched live from the switch). So when changing a fitting or
lamp etc I will normally correct this as a matter of routine.

Now traditionally one would flag the black wire with red, or these days
the blue with brown. It just occurred to me that now the new colours are
mandatory, what is the correct procedure in a mixed colour installation?
Should one still flag black wires with red, or should one now use brown?
Appendix 7 of BS7671 does not seem to give an answer.

John.


You would flag a switched live as brown, being the new adopted colour
scheme, even if you leave the original live as red, the different
distinction between red and brown is acceptable. In cases of multiple
conductor systems used for remote switching etc, you could actually leave
the switched live as black.

John Rumm wrote:
One of my pet hates is lighting positions (or any other place where
wires are used in non obvious ways that differ from their colouring)
where the original installer obviously could not be arsed to flag the
wires with coloured tape or sleeving when required (e.g. the wire
carrying switched live from the switch). So when changing a fitting or
lamp etc I will normally correct this as a matter of routine.

You would be amazed at how many times I change light fittings where the
switch live isnt marked, prolly 90%. The earth wire actually being sleeved
is an extreemly rare thing to find.

Several times I've come across the 'I've wired the new light in & it doesn't
work' syndrome to find all three blacks joined.

Now traditionally one would flag the black wire with red, or these
days the blue with brown. It just occurred to me that now the new
colours are mandatory, what is the correct procedure in a mixed
colour installation? Should one still flag black wires with red, or
should one now use brown? Appendix 7 of BS7671 does not seem to give
an answer.

Good point, I tag the cable & the black wire with red tape just to be sure.

Brown just isn't right for a live IMO. Electrickery is 'red' for nasty or
'blue' for lightning. Brown instictively means 'neutral' or 'brown earth'
to me.

IMO cables should be red for 'live' or 'danger', or blue for 'lightning'.
Neutrals should be a neutral colour like brown or black. Who decided on the
colours anyway?



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk






--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

The Medway Handyman wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
One of my pet hates is lighting positions (or any other place where
wires are used in non obvious ways that differ from their colouring)
where the original installer obviously could not be arsed to flag the
wires with coloured tape or sleeving when required (e.g. the wire
carrying switched live from the switch). So when changing a fitting or
lamp etc I will normally correct this as a matter of routine.

You would be amazed at how many times I change light fittings where the
switch live isnt marked, prolly 90%. The earth wire actually being sleeved
is an extreemly rare thing to find.

Don't find 90% amazing really - seems to concur with my experience...

Earth sleeving is certainly more common, although by no means universal.

Several times I've come across the 'I've wired the new light in & it doesn't
work' syndrome to find all three blacks joined.

Now traditionally one would flag the black wire with red, or these
days the blue with brown. It just occurred to me that now the new
colours are mandatory, what is the correct procedure in a mixed
colour installation? Should one still flag black wires with red, or
should one now use brown? Appendix 7 of BS7671 does not seem to give
an answer.

Good point, I tag the cable & the black wire with red tape just to be sure.

Brown just isn't right for a live IMO. Electrickery is 'red' for nasty or
'blue' for lightning. Brown instictively means 'neutral' or 'brown earth'
to me.

IMO cables should be red for 'live' or 'danger', or blue for 'lightning'.
Neutrals should be a neutral colour like brown or black. Who decided on the
colours anyway?

One of the big difficulties with any harmonised system - different
colours traditionally mean different things to different cultures and
nations. The US use Black and White for Live and Neutral... (and for
that matter we use black for live now in some cases).


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
"The Medway Handyman" writes:
John Rumm wrote:
One of my pet hates is lighting positions (or any other place where
wires are used in non obvious ways that differ from their colouring)
where the original installer obviously could not be arsed to flag the
wires with coloured tape or sleeving when required (e.g. the wire
carrying switched live from the switch). So when changing a fitting or
lamp etc I will normally correct this as a matter of routine.

You would be amazed at how many times I change light fittings where the
switch live isnt marked, prolly 90%.

I find it on the wrong wires often enough that it's worse than
useless, and it's thus much better/safer not to be there at all.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
I find it on the wrong wires often enough that it's worse than
useless, and it's thus much better/safer not to be there at all.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

I suggest sleeving wires in light switches is a complete and utter waste of
time. I do it because I know what the rules say. But it tells someone who
knows little about electricity nothing and it tells someone who does know
something about alectricity nothing that was not staring them in the face
anyway.
Regards
BruceB

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Now traditionally one would flag the black wire with red, or these days
the blue with brown. It just occurred to me that now the new colours are
mandatory, what is the correct procedure in a mixed colour installation?
Should one still flag black wires with red, or should one now use brown?
Appendix 7 of BS7671 does not seem to give an answer.

I'd say you use the colour appropriate to the wiring colour. Although just
why you'd use the old wiring in a new installation using the new colours
mainly I'm not sure.

--
*Errors have been made. Others will be blamed.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

BigWallop coughed up some electrons that declared:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
One of my pet hates is lighting positions (or any other place where
wires are used in non obvious ways that differ from their colouring)
where the original installer obviously could not be arsed to flag the
wires with coloured tape or sleeving when required (e.g. the wire
carrying switched live from the switch). So when changing a fitting or
lamp etc I will normally correct this as a matter of routine.

Now traditionally one would flag the black wire with red, or these days
the blue with brown. It just occurred to me that now the new colours are
mandatory, what is the correct procedure in a mixed colour installation?
Should one still flag black wires with red, or should one now use brown?
Appendix 7 of BS7671 does not seem to give an answer.

John.


You would flag a switched live as brown, being the new adopted colour
scheme, even if you leave the original live as red, the different
distinction between red and brown is acceptable. In cases of multiple
conductor systems used for remote switching etc, you could actually leave
the switched live as black.

This precise question came up on the EAL course I attended a few weeks back.

The answer according to our instructor was:

New colour cables should be flagged in new colours;

Old colour cables should be flagged according to old colours, even if the
flagging is done post-harmonisation.

To me it makes sense to maintain the colours within a section of cable to
suit that cable, even on a mixed installation.

Cheers

Tim

"Tim S" wrote in message
...
BigWallop coughed up some electrons that declared:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
One of my pet hates is lighting positions (or any other place where
wires are used in non obvious ways that differ from their colouring)
where the original installer obviously could not be arsed to flag the
wires with coloured tape or sleeving when required (e.g. the wire
carrying switched live from the switch). So when changing a fitting or
lamp etc I will normally correct this as a matter of routine.

Now traditionally one would flag the black wire with red, or these days
the blue with brown. It just occurred to me that now the new colours
are
mandatory, what is the correct procedure in a mixed colour
installation?
Should one still flag black wires with red, or should one now use
brown?
Appendix 7 of BS7671 does not seem to give an answer.

John.


You would flag a switched live as brown, being the new adopted colour
scheme, even if you leave the original live as red, the different
distinction between red and brown is acceptable. In cases of multiple
conductor systems used for remote switching etc, you could actually
leave
the switched live as black.

This precise question came up on the EAL course I attended a few weeks
back.

The answer according to our instructor was:

New colour cables should be flagged in new colours;

Old colour cables should be flagged according to old colours, even if the
flagging is done post-harmonisation.

To me it makes sense to maintain the colours within a section of cable to
suit that cable, even on a mixed installation.

Cheers

Tim


Tell your instructor that, if I have to carry any more coloured sleeving
about with me, I'm gonna' come down there and bosh him in the face. I'm
goin' for crayons next time. See how they like that. :-)

I loved it when I could carry a roll of green/yellow over sleeve and that
was that. :-)

"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
One of my pet hates is lighting positions (or any other place where
wires are used in non obvious ways that differ from their colouring)
where the original installer obviously could not be arsed to flag the
wires with coloured tape or sleeving when required (e.g. the wire
carrying switched live from the switch). So when changing a fitting or
lamp etc I will normally correct this as a matter of routine.

Now traditionally one would flag the black wire with red, or these days
the blue with brown. It just occurred to me that now the new colours are
mandatory, what is the correct procedure in a mixed colour installation?
Should one still flag black wires with red, or should one now use brown?
Appendix 7 of BS7671 does not seem to give an answer.


--
Cheers,

John.

An electrician I sometimes work with asked the NICEIC support desk this. In
his case it was when he was 2 waying a light. There was no red sleeving on
the existing switch wire and the 3 core and earth he was installing for the
two way was in the new colours. He was told to use brown on the new wires (a
bit obvious) and red on the existing black wire.

I know that is not a reg and only the NICEICs interpretation of the regs. It
seems a logical enough approach though.

Adam

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
om...

"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
One of my pet hates is lighting positions (or any other place where
wires are used in non obvious ways that differ from their colouring)
where the original installer obviously could not be arsed to flag the
wires with coloured tape or sleeving when required (e.g. the wire
carrying switched live from the switch). So when changing a fitting or
lamp etc I will normally correct this as a matter of routine.

Now traditionally one would flag the black wire with red, or these days
the blue with brown. It just occurred to me that now the new colours are
mandatory, what is the correct procedure in a mixed colour installation?
Should one still flag black wires with red, or should one now use brown?
Appendix 7 of BS7671 does not seem to give an answer.


--
Cheers,

John.

An electrician I sometimes work with asked the NICEIC support desk this.
In
his case it was when he was 2 waying a light. There was no red sleeving on
the existing switch wire and the 3 core and earth he was installing for
the
two way was in the new colours. He was told to use brown on the new wires
(a
bit obvious) and red on the existing black wire.

I know that is not a reg and only the NICEICs interpretation of the regs.
It
seems a logical enough approach though.

Adam


But brown does just as well. As the colour brown has now been chosen to
signify a live conductor in the new harmonised scheme. But, also, the
colour red can be used in a none mixed scheme to signify a switched live
conductor, which gives no reference to black or blue on the switched live to
any fitting, making it easier to distinguish all the switched live
conductors. Brown supply. Red Switched supply. Blue Neutral.

"BigWallop" wrote in message
om...

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
om...
An electrician I sometimes work with asked the NICEIC support desk this.
In
his case it was when he was 2 waying a light. There was no red sleeving
on
the existing switch wire and the 3 core and earth he was installing for
the
two way was in the new colours. He was told to use brown on the new
wires
(a
bit obvious) and red on the existing black wire.

I know that is not a reg and only the NICEICs interpretation of the
regs.
It
seems a logical enough approach though.

Adam


But brown does just as well. As the colour brown has now been chosen to
signify a live conductor in the new harmonised scheme. But, also, the
colour red can be used in a none mixed scheme to signify a switched live
conductor, which gives no reference to black or blue on the switched live
to
any fitting, making it easier to distinguish all the switched live
conductors. Brown supply. Red Switched supply. Blue Neutral.


Make your mind up.

If you have red in a non mixed scheme then you are using the old colours and
only the old colours. Brown is not one of the old colours. By adding brown
you have a mixed scheme.

Adam

I see Big Wallop is talking ******** again further down the thread. The man
has no shame.

Hi Tim

Have you given any thoughts as to the way you are going to wire your lights
in the bungalow?

Loop in loop out
Singles
Take LN&E to each switch in turn with just a single 1.5 t&E to each fitting


I was just curious.

I have a few tips, either self learnt, shamelesly pinched off someone else
that is very good at their job or read about on groups like this.

Adam

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
om...

"BigWallop" wrote in message
om...

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
om...
An electrician I sometimes work with asked the NICEIC support desk
this.
In
his case it was when he was 2 waying a light. There was no red
sleeving
on
the existing switch wire and the 3 core and earth he was installing
for
the
two way was in the new colours. He was told to use brown on the new
wires
(a
bit obvious) and red on the existing black wire.

I know that is not a reg and only the NICEICs interpretation of the
regs.
It
seems a logical enough approach though.

Adam


But brown does just as well. As the colour brown has now been chosen to
signify a live conductor in the new harmonised scheme. But, also, the
colour red can be used in a none mixed scheme to signify a switched live
conductor, which gives no reference to black or blue on the switched
live
to
any fitting, making it easier to distinguish all the switched live
conductors. Brown supply. Red Switched supply. Blue Neutral.


Make your mind up.

If you have red in a non mixed scheme then you are using the old colours
and
only the old colours. Brown is not one of the old colours. By adding brown
you have a mixed scheme.

Adam


I didn't word that properly, did I? I didn't mean to use the phrase "a none
mixed scheme" in there. What I meant was, even in an installation which
uses the new harmonised colours, you can also use red to distinguish your
switched live conductors. So giving Brown as the supply. Red as the
switched live to the appliance and Blue as the neutral conductors.

Is that clearer? Let me read through that again. Yeah. That makes more
sense.

(Note to self: (Must put brain in gear before typing what comes into head
for the split second before fingers move across keyboard.)) lol

In article ,
ARWadsworth scribeth thus

"BigWallop" wrote in message
. com...

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
om...
An electrician I sometimes work with asked the NICEIC support desk this.
In
his case it was when he was 2 waying a light. There was no red sleeving
on
the existing switch wire and the 3 core and earth he was installing for
the
two way was in the new colours. He was told to use brown on the new
wires
(a
bit obvious) and red on the existing black wire.

I know that is not a reg and only the NICEICs interpretation of the
regs.
It
seems a logical enough approach though.

Adam


But brown does just as well. As the colour brown has now been chosen to
signify a live conductor in the new harmonised scheme. But, also, the
colour red can be used in a none mixed scheme to signify a switched live
conductor, which gives no reference to black or blue on the switched live
to
any fitting, making it easier to distinguish all the switched live
conductors. Brown supply. Red Switched supply. Blue Neutral.


Make your mind up.

If you have red in a non mixed scheme then you are using the old colours and
only the old colours. Brown is not one of the old colours. By adding brown
you have a mixed scheme.

Adam



Its a pity for things like switched live cables there couldn't have been
a Brown/Red or some other colour stripe..

Like Green/Yellow..

So Brown is a live then the stripe signifies something you do with
it//..
--
Tony Sayer

On Sun, 16 Nov 2008 12:42:39 GMT, "BigWallop"
wrote:

Old colour cables should be flagged according to old colours, even if the
flagging is done post-harmonisation.

To me it makes sense to maintain the colours within a section of cable to
suit that cable, even on a mixed installation.

Cheers

Tim


Tell your instructor that, if I have to carry any more coloured sleeving
about with me, I'm gonna' come down there and bosh him in the face. I'm
goin' for crayons next time. See how they like that. :-)

I loved it when I could carry a roll of green/yellow over sleeve and that
was that. :-)


White sleeve and indelible marking pens.

Tim S wrote:

This precise question came up on the EAL course I attended a few weeks back.

The answer according to our instructor was:

New colour cables should be flagged in new colours;

Old colour cables should be flagged according to old colours, even if the
flagging is done post-harmonisation.

Jolly good. It is what made sense to me, and is what I do, but it did
occur to me that there might be alternative options.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

BruceB wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
I find it on the wrong wires often enough that it's worse than
useless, and it's thus much better/safer not to be there at all.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

I suggest sleeving wires in light switches is a complete and utter waste of
time. I do it because I know what the rules say. But it tells someone who
knows little about electricity nothing and it tells someone who does know
something about alectricity nothing that was not staring them in the face
anyway.

Its not in the switch where it matters particularly, but in the ceiling
rose. Just think of how many times you have read here posts that start
out something like: "I took down the old light and now I have all these
wires and I don't know what to do with them"

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article ,
ARWadsworth scribeth thus

"BigWallop" wrote in message
. com...

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
om...
An electrician I sometimes work with asked the NICEIC support desk
this.
In
his case it was when he was 2 waying a light. There was no red
sleeving
on
the existing switch wire and the 3 core and earth he was installing
for
the
two way was in the new colours. He was told to use brown on the new
wires
(a
bit obvious) and red on the existing black wire.

I know that is not a reg and only the NICEICs interpretation of the
regs.
It
seems a logical enough approach though.

Adam


But brown does just as well. As the colour brown has now been chosen
to
signify a live conductor in the new harmonised scheme. But, also, the
colour red can be used in a none mixed scheme to signify a switched
live
conductor, which gives no reference to black or blue on the switched
live
to
any fitting, making it easier to distinguish all the switched live
conductors. Brown supply. Red Switched supply. Blue Neutral.


Make your mind up.

If you have red in a non mixed scheme then you are using the old colours
and
only the old colours. Brown is not one of the old colours. By adding
brown
you have a mixed scheme.

Adam



Its a pity for things like switched live cables there couldn't have been
a Brown/Red or some other colour stripe..

Like Green/Yellow..

So Brown is a live then the stripe signifies something you do with
it//..

Tony Sayer


FFS don't confuse us any more. :-) LOL

"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
BruceB wrote:

I suggest sleeving wires in light switches is a complete and utter waste
of time. I do it because I know what the rules say. But it tells
someone who knows little about electricity nothing and it tells someone
who does know something about alectricity nothing that was not staring
them in the face anyway.

Its not in the switch where it matters particularly, but in the ceiling
rose. Just think of how many times you have read here posts that start out
something like: "I took down the old light and now I have all these wires
and I don't know what to do with them"

Accepted! Although it only helps with one cable out of perhaps 3 or 4 at a
rose.

"BruceB" wrote in message
...

"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
BruceB wrote:

I suggest sleeving wires in light switches is a complete and utter
waste
of time. I do it because I know what the rules say. But it tells
someone who knows little about electricity nothing and it tells someone
who does know something about alectricity nothing that was not staring
them in the face anyway.

Its not in the switch where it matters particularly, but in the ceiling
rose. Just think of how many times you have read here posts that start
out
something like: "I took down the old light and now I have all these
wires
and I don't know what to do with them"

Accepted! Although it only helps with one cable out of perhaps 3 or 4 at
a
rose.


As long as the switched supply is marked, I think it is easier to find out
what the other wires do.

In article ,
tony sayer writes:
Its a pity for things like switched live cables there couldn't have been
a Brown/Red or some other colour stripe..

There was a T&E with both colours red for switch drops.
Not seen a brown version.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...

There was a T&E with both colours red for switch drops.
Not seen a brown version.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Twin brown
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Cable_Index/Twin_and_Earth_Brown/index.html
Regards
BruceB

BigWallop coughed up some electrons that declared:


"Tim S" wrote in message
...
BigWallop coughed up some electrons that declared:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
One of my pet hates is lighting positions (or any other place where
wires are used in non obvious ways that differ from their colouring)
where the original installer obviously could not be arsed to flag the
wires with coloured tape or sleeving when required (e.g. the wire
carrying switched live from the switch). So when changing a fitting or
lamp etc I will normally correct this as a matter of routine.

Now traditionally one would flag the black wire with red, or these
days the blue with brown. It just occurred to me that now the new
colours
are
mandatory, what is the correct procedure in a mixed colour
installation?
Should one still flag black wires with red, or should one now use
brown?
Appendix 7 of BS7671 does not seem to give an answer.

John.


You would flag a switched live as brown, being the new adopted colour
scheme, even if you leave the original live as red, the different
distinction between red and brown is acceptable. In cases of multiple
conductor systems used for remote switching etc, you could actually
leave
the switched live as black.

This precise question came up on the EAL course I attended a few weeks
back.

The answer according to our instructor was:

New colour cables should be flagged in new colours;

Old colour cables should be flagged according to old colours, even if the
flagging is done post-harmonisation.

To me it makes sense to maintain the colours within a section of cable to
suit that cable, even on a mixed installation.

Cheers

Tim


Tell your instructor that, if I have to carry any more coloured sleeving
about with me, I'm gonna' come down there and bosh him in the face. I'm
goin' for crayons next time. See how they like that. :-)

You tell him - I've passed my exams and I'll never see him again.

I loved it when I could carry a roll of green/yellow over sleeve and that
was that. :-)

Personally, I think it's not much help from a safety POV as we're all taught
now that neutral is live (ie potentially dangerous).

It's useful in lighting though, to see the intent that a black or blue wire
is supposed to be a phase (or line). Problem is, half the time you take a
rose or light switch to bits, the sleeves fall off anyway...

Cheers

Tim

Hi Adam,

ARWadsworth coughed up some electrons that declared:

I see Big Wallop is talking ******** again further down the thread. The
man has no shame.

Hi Tim

Have you given any thoughts as to the way you are going to wire your
lights in the bungalow?

Loop in loop out
Singles
Take LN&E to each switch in turn with just a single 1.5 t&E to each
fitting

Well... I haven't honestly decided. A lot of the lighting circuits are
likely to be 2-way 'cos of the layout of the house and some may be 3 or 4
gang, so it might get messy having say upto 7-9 cables coming into a double
plate.

Ceiling rose bases are OK for pendant drops but, IMLE not very good when
SWMBO wants a euro-made lamp (IKEA *cough*) with no room to fit over a
rose, so that's probably killed loop-in loop-out, unless one uses junction
boxes over the light drop [see end]

To be honest, I'm strongly considering to put each room into a junction box
(DIN box and DIN terminals, not lots of round jobbies) and star out from
there. There's an accessible roof void at the end of each room, so I'd
stick them there with a loop round for the supply.


I was just curious.

I have a few tips, either self learnt, shamelesly pinched off someone else
that is very good at their job or read about on groups like this.

I welcome them

BTW - I'm trying these out as TLC have a special offer:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Images/P...3/TLCT100C.JPG

for my temporary lighting, which will consist of:

One DP pull switch by front door (not very Part-L, one switch for the
house ;-

10 batten lamp bases one (or two) per room (dirt cheap)

10 30W "daylight" spiral Prolight CFLs (found them cheap-ish and 4.90+VAT
and I get to use them again afterwards, unlike loads of strip fittings).

The whole lot will be linked with T+E cable-clipped to face of ceilings
because it's out of the way of all the holes I'm cutting into the walls and
means all temporary circuits are visible, not buried.

This seemed the cheapest and quickest way for a lash up while I'm getting
all the proper electrics in...

The TLC widget will make it easy to yank one lamp feed if I'm working on the
ceiling in that area - and well, I was curious.

Cheers

Tim

Tim S wrote:
BigWallop coughed up some electrons that declared:


"Tim S" wrote in message
...
BigWallop coughed up some electrons that declared:


"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
One of my pet hates is lighting positions (or any other place
where wires are used in non obvious ways that differ from their
colouring) where the original installer obviously could not be
arsed to flag the wires with coloured tape or sleeving when
required (e.g. the wire carrying switched live from the switch).
So when changing a fitting or lamp etc I will normally correct
this as a matter of routine.

Now traditionally one would flag the black wire with red, or these
days the blue with brown. It just occurred to me that now the new
colours
are
mandatory, what is the correct procedure in a mixed colour
installation? Should one still flag black wires with red, or
should one now use brown? Appendix 7 of BS7671 does not seem to
give an answer.

John.


You would flag a switched live as brown, being the new adopted
colour scheme, even if you leave the original live as red, the
different distinction between red and brown is acceptable. In
cases of multiple conductor systems used for remote switching etc,
you could actually leave the switched live as black.

This precise question came up on the EAL course I attended a few
weeks back.

The answer according to our instructor was:

New colour cables should be flagged in new colours;

Old colour cables should be flagged according to old colours, even
if the flagging is done post-harmonisation.

To me it makes sense to maintain the colours within a section of
cable to suit that cable, even on a mixed installation.

Cheers

Tim


Tell your instructor that, if I have to carry any more coloured
sleeving about with me, I'm gonna' come down there and bosh him in
the face. I'm goin' for crayons next time. See how they like that.
:-)

You tell him - I've passed my exams and I'll never see him again.

I loved it when I could carry a roll of green/yellow over sleeve and
that was that. :-)

Personally, I think it's not much help from a safety POV as we're all
taught now that neutral is live (ie potentially dangerous).

It's useful in lighting though, to see the intent that a black or
blue wire is supposed to be a phase (or line). Problem is, half the
time you take a rose or light switch to bits, the sleeves fall off
anyway...

Exactly. I now always tape the outer of the cable containing the switch
live before I touch anything else.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

Tim S wrote:
Hi Adam,

ARWadsworth coughed up some electrons that declared:

I see Big Wallop is talking ******** again further down the thread.
The man has no shame.

Hi Tim

Have you given any thoughts as to the way you are going to wire your
lights in the bungalow?

Loop in loop out
Singles
Take LN&E to each switch in turn with just a single 1.5 t&E to each
fitting

Well... I haven't honestly decided. A lot of the lighting circuits are
likely to be 2-way 'cos of the layout of the house and some may be 3
or 4 gang, so it might get messy having say upto 7-9 cables coming
into a double plate.

Ceiling rose bases are OK for pendant drops but, IMLE not very good
when SWMBO wants a euro-made lamp (IKEA *cough*) with no room to fit
over a rose, so that's probably killed loop-in loop-out, unless one
uses junction boxes over the light drop [see end]

To be honest, I'm strongly considering to put each room into a
junction box (DIN box and DIN terminals, not lots of round jobbies)
and star out from there. There's an accessible roof void at the end
of each room, so I'd stick them there with a loop round for the
supply.


I was just curious.

I have a few tips, either self learnt, shamelesly pinched off
someone else that is very good at their job or read about on groups
like this.

I welcome them

BTW - I'm trying these out as TLC have a special offer:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Images/P...3/TLCT100C.JPG

They look rather useful, I'll have to get some.


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

The Medway Handyman coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim S wrote:
BTW - I'm trying these out as TLC have a special offer:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Images/P...3/TLCT100C.JPG

They look rather useful, I'll have to get some.



Word of warning Dave: as they have screw terminals, they must
remain "accessible" so the terminals can be maintained, in the same way
that other junction boxes must (*cough*).

I noticed someone is starting to pedal some junction boxes with spring
terminals and claiming that they can be hidden and remain reliable.

Cheers

Tim

Tim S wrote:
The Medway Handyman coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim S wrote:
BTW - I'm trying these out as TLC have a special offer:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Images/P...3/TLCT100C.JPG
They look rather useful, I'll have to get some.



Word of warning Dave: as they have screw terminals, they must
remain "accessible" so the terminals can be maintained, in the same way
that other junction boxes must (*cough*).

I noticed someone is starting to pedal some junction boxes with spring
terminals and claiming that they can be hidden and remain reliable.

Cheers

Tim

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ804.html ?

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Rod coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim S wrote:
The Medway Handyman coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim S wrote:
BTW - I'm trying these out as TLC have a special offer:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Images/P...3/TLCT100C.JPG
They look rather useful, I'll have to get some.



Word of warning Dave: as they have screw terminals, they must
remain "accessible" so the terminals can be maintained, in the same way
that other junction boxes must (*cough*).

I noticed someone is starting to pedal some junction boxes with spring
terminals and claiming that they can be hidden and remain reliable.

Cheers

Tim

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ804.html ?


That's one - saw another make down another wholesalers, but the manufacturer
escapes me.

Cheers

Tim

John Rumm wrote:
Tim S wrote:

This precise question came up on the EAL course I attended a few
weeks back. The answer according to our instructor was:

New colour cables should be flagged in new colours;

Old colour cables should be flagged according to old colours, even
if the flagging is done post-harmonisation.

Jolly good. It is what made sense to me, and is what I do, but it did
occur to me that there might be alternative options.


Does not make total sense to me - because I have been using brown and
blue sleeving when making good cable in old colours :-((

Is this likely to be more a matter of good practice (attracting at most
a code 4) rather than a breach of a specific reg? I ask in part because
it seems to me a bit odd to expect everyone working in the field to
carry red sleeving for years to come - perhaps 30+ years.

--
Robin

"neverwas" wrote in message
om...
John Rumm wrote:
Tim S wrote:

This precise question came up on the EAL course I attended a few
weeks back. The answer according to our instructor was:

New colour cables should be flagged in new colours;

Old colour cables should be flagged according to old colours, even
if the flagging is done post-harmonisation.

Jolly good. It is what made sense to me, and is what I do, but it did
occur to me that there might be alternative options.


Does not make total sense to me - because I have been using brown and
blue sleeving when making good cable in old colours :-((

Is this likely to be more a matter of good practice (attracting at most
a code 4) rather than a breach of a specific reg? I ask in part because
it seems to me a bit odd to expect everyone working in the field to
carry red sleeving for years to come - perhaps 30+ years.

Robin


I tell ya' Robin. If they make me carry any more bloody over sleeving, I
won't have any room in the box for tools. No joke. :-)

The new colour scheme is acceptable everywhere, without any comeback, as
long as it is correctly identifying what it should be, of course.

In article ,
Tim S wrote:
It's useful in lighting though, to see the intent that a black or blue
wire is supposed to be a phase (or line). Problem is, half the time you
take a rose or light switch to bits, the sleeves fall off anyway...

Hence my liking for Hellerman sleeving - made out of rubber. They normally
need a special tool to apply - it expands it - but for this purpose the
correct size can just be slid on and won't come off without a struggle.

--
*No I haven't stolen it , I'm just a **** driver*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim S wrote:
Ceiling rose bases are OK for pendant drops but, IMLE not very good when
SWMBO wants a euro-made lamp (IKEA *cough*) with no room to fit over a
rose, so that's probably killed loop-in loop-out, unless one uses
junction boxes over the light drop [see end]

To be honest, I'm strongly considering to put each room into a junction
box (DIN box and DIN terminals, not lots of round jobbies) and star out
from there. There's an accessible roof void at the end of each room, so
I'd stick them there with a loop round for the supply.

Just noticed in the latest TLC cat a rather nifty junction box designed
for inaccessible places.

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ804.html

Also ones designed for use with downlighters, etc

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ501.html

--
*If at first you don't succeed, try management *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

BruceB wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
et...
BruceB wrote:
I suggest sleeving wires in light switches is a complete and utter waste
of time. I do it because I know what the rules say. But it tells
someone who knows little about electricity nothing and it tells someone
who does know something about alectricity nothing that was not staring
them in the face anyway.
Its not in the switch where it matters particularly, but in the ceiling
rose. Just think of how many times you have read here posts that start out
something like: "I took down the old light and now I have all these wires
and I don't know what to do with them"

Accepted! Although it only helps with one cable out of perhaps 3 or 4 at a
rose.

Indeed, and that is the one cable that needs to be treated differently
from the others.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Tim S wrote:
The Medway Handyman coughed up some electrons that declared:

Tim S wrote:
BTW - I'm trying these out as TLC have a special offer:

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Images/P...3/TLCT100C.JPG
They look rather useful, I'll have to get some.



Word of warning Dave: as they have screw terminals, they must
remain "accessible" so the terminals can be maintained, in the same way
that other junction boxes must (*cough*).

For most light fitting connections, one could argue the connection
remains accessible by the expedient of removing the fitting.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tim S wrote:
It's useful in lighting though, to see the intent that a black or blue
wire is supposed to be a phase (or line). Problem is, half the time you
take a rose or light switch to bits, the sleeves fall off anyway...

Hence my liking for Hellerman sleeving - made out of rubber. They normally
need a special tool to apply - it expands it - but for this purpose the
correct size can just be slid on and won't come off without a struggle.

Dave Plowman London SW


We use Hellerman for heat protection sleeving. That's a galvanised rubbery
stuff. It's bloody expensive to use on standard sleeving jobs though. Is
that the kind of thing you're using?

In article ,
BigWallop wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tim S wrote:
It's useful in lighting though, to see the intent that a black or
blue wire is supposed to be a phase (or line). Problem is, half the
time you take a rose or light switch to bits, the sleeves fall off
anyway...

Hence my liking for Hellerman sleeving - made out of rubber. They
normally need a special tool to apply - it expands it - but for this
purpose the correct size can just be slid on and won't come off
without a struggle.


We use Hellerman for heat protection sleeving. That's a galvanised
rubbery stuff. It's bloody expensive to use on standard sleeving jobs
though. Is that the kind of thing you're using?

Yes. Not sure I'd use it if I were wiring houses for a living, but for DIY
it's ideal. Costs about 2p per sleeve.

--
*Fax is stronger than fiction *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes:
Just noticed in the latest TLC cat a rather nifty junction box designed
for inaccessible places.

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ804.html

That doesn't meet the requirements for the connections being
crimped, soldered or brazed. Actually, it looks like the
contact pressure is just down to a spring, which would make
this much worse than any normal junction box connection, and
most unsuitable for inaccessible places.

Also ones designed for use with downlighters, etc

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ501.html

That one's quite nice.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes:
Just noticed in the latest TLC cat a rather nifty junction box designed
for inaccessible places.

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ804.html

That doesn't meet the requirements for the connections being
crimped, soldered or brazed. Actually, it looks like the
contact pressure is just down to a spring, which would make
this much worse than any normal junction box connection, and
most unsuitable for inaccessible places.

Also ones designed for use with downlighters, etc

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ501.html

That one's quite nice.


If you follow the link from TLC to their 17th regs. summary (from
Hager), it seems expressly to state that these *do* comply with the
requirements of the regs. Not having a copy to hand (well, not having a
copy at all!), I can't look up the wording. Do the regs state "crimped,
soldered or brazed"? Or is that a previous version or standard
interpretation?

From that PDF (page 9):

"Maintenance Free Connections

Maintenance free terminals provide one solution where accessibility
is an issue.

Tests, including long term vibration, shock test, long term connection
test, pull out, voltage drop, temperature rise and exposure to corrosive
atmospheres validate the suitability of these terminals. Equally
suitable are solutions such as a ‘joint made by a compression
tool’."

I can't help feeling that quite a few people here would like to be
certain of the proper interpretation. Including me!

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org