"Conor" wrote in message
...
In article cc3c2337-405c-4e1c-9c7e-35359c976734
@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com, says...

That would explain your failure to see the spikes. Try repeatedly
switching off the rear window heater while measuring next time. Then
try it for real: switch off all accessories and waggle the loose
battery connection. Dont have your laptop connected

**** all happened. Difference is I had the night heater in the truck
instead of a heated window. A night heater is a bit of kit which has an
electrode which heats up diesel and a fan to blow the resulting hot air
into the cab. Works like central heating in the fact that you set a
temperature and it comes on and off to maintain that.

Yeah, Eberspächer. Got one in my campervan. Brilliant things. Even during -6
nights I was almost too warm. and had to turn the themostat down.

Graham

In article , Graham says...

"Conor" wrote in message
...
In article cc3c2337-405c-4e1c-9c7e-35359c976734
@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com, says...

That would explain your failure to see the spikes. Try repeatedly
switching off the rear window heater while measuring next time. Then
try it for real: switch off all accessories and waggle the loose
battery connection. Dont have your laptop connected

**** all happened. Difference is I had the night heater in the truck
instead of a heated window. A night heater is a bit of kit which has an
electrode which heats up diesel and a fan to blow the resulting hot air
into the cab. Works like central heating in the fact that you set a
temperature and it comes on and off to maintain that.

Yeah, Eberspächer. Got one in my campervan. Brilliant things. Even during -6
nights I was almost too warm. and had to turn the themostat down.

That's the jobbie. Only downside to them is getting them to fire up for
the first time after a summer being unused.


--
Conor

I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't
looking good either. - Scott Adams

On Jul 30, 7:11*pm, Conor wrote:
In article cc3c2337-405c-4e1c-9c7e-35359c976734
@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com, *says...

That would explain your failure to see the spikes. Try repeatedly
switching off the rear window heater while measuring next time. Then
try it for real: switch off all accessories and waggle the loose
battery connection. Dont have your laptop connected

**** all happened. Difference is I had the night heater in the truck
instead of a heated window. A night heater is a bit of kit which has an
electrode which heats up diesel and a fan to blow the resulting hot air
into the cab. Works like central heating in the fact that you set a
temperature and it comes on and off to maintain that.

A night heater draws more current than a window heater and the
electrical noise from the fan far exceeds that of the window heater to
the point where it can be seen as RF interference on a TV.

And my laptop still works.

So again, you're talking out of your arse.

Can you read ok Conor? 'Dont disconnect the battery with the laptop
connected' is what was said. Tell you what, since theres no problem
why dont you try it and prove it to us.


NT

Graham wrote:

So as previously stated, there is no problem. You carry on with your bad
self and I'll carry on without the problems I've not had.

If there's no problem why is the subject of 'load dump' and other
transient overvoltages taken so seriously in the automotive electronics
industry? Why are detailed specifications and standards written and a
great deal of testing done? Why do the semiconductor manufacturers
develop and make automotive-rated devices? Why does Google return over
7,000 hits for "automotive load dump" and nearly 84,000 for "load dump"
most of them probably automotive-related?

--
Andy

On Jul 30, 6:20*pm, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:
In article
,
* wrote:

I didn't. I simply don't go around disconnecting alternators with the
engine running. I try and design stuff to be foolproof, idiot proof
even - but not c**t proof.
That would explain your failure to see the spikes. Try repeatedly
switching off the rear window heater while measuring next time.

What's that supposed to do?

Then try it for real: switch off all accessories and waggle the loose
battery connection. Dont have your laptop connected

Err, why are you deliberately introducing a red herring? If a battery
terminal is loose the car won't start.

If the op wants to play chance games with their lappy they can, but at
least they're more aware of the problem now.

You use a laptop on the move? Takes all types.

If these events didnt occur IRL no-one would write about them, and car
electronics designers wouldnt design equipment to withstand them. They
do.

Including the PS built into the fag lighter adaptor?

I'm not denying you could possibly mess up something by adapting it to run
off a fag lighter socket - but that wasn't the question.

And I've got lots of home designed electronics in one car where I made
absolutely no provision for the sort of over voltage you imply. Without
failure.

I'm surprised you dont seem to spot the flaws in these points. But I'm
not really concerned, enjoy your appliances.


NT

On 2008-07-30 19:11:52 +0100, Conor said:

In article cc3c2337-405c-4e1c-9c7e-35359c976734
@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com, says...

That would explain your failure to see the spikes. Try repeatedly
switching off the rear window heater while measuring next time. Then
try it for real: switch off all accessories and waggle the loose
battery connection. Dont have your laptop connected

**** all happened. Difference is I had the night heater in the truck
instead of a heated window. A night heater is a bit of kit which has an
electrode which heats up diesel and a fan to blow the resulting hot air
into the cab. Works like central heating in the fact that you set a
temperature and it comes on and off to maintain that.

A night heater draws more current than a window heater and the
electrical noise from the fan far exceeds that of the window heater to
the point where it can be seen as RF interference on a TV.

And my laptop still works.

So again, you're talking out of your arse.

Really all that you can deduce from that is that nothing bad happens in
your environment. It doesn't give the data to say that it can never
happen in other cases.

In my early engineering career, I designed electronics, control and
communication systems that were often fitted into military vehicles of
various types.

In general it was necessary to incorporate various filtering and
protection into the DC supplies to the electronics, because of
electrical spikes and noise from the vehicle systems. Primarily,
this was to avoid damage to certain sensitive semiconductors in the
equipment and did so successfully.

The far harder problem was dealing with the sensitivity of the radio
receivers, that were working in the 2-30MHz range from being swamped by
the general electrical noise.

For example, on a tank, when the turret was rotated, one could find
sharp rising spikes of 600-800v on some of the wiring.

I suspect that in a typical domestic car and possibly even a commercial
truck, the potential for problems is not as great and certainly
electronics has been improved from the EMC perspective over the last
decade. Nonetheless, the mechanisms for bad things to happen are
certainly present in a motor vehicle.

On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 01:57:40 +0100, Andy Wade
wrote:

Graham wrote:

So as previously stated, there is no problem. You carry on with your
bad self and I'll carry on without the problems I've not had.

If there's no problem why is the subject of 'load dump' and other
transient overvoltages taken so seriously in the automotive electronics
industry? Why are detailed specifications and standards written and a
great deal of testing done? Why do the semiconductor manufacturers
develop and make automotive-rated devices? Why does Google return over
7,000 hits for "automotive load dump" and nearly 84,000 for "load dump"
most of them probably automotive-related?



Because if the elctronics inside the car failed at that point then a loose
battery lead would write the car off. Which would be highly embarassing to
have to explain on watchdog & have enormous liability issues for anything
safety critical. & it's most likely to occur during initial startup &
subsequent servicing, your laptop/pda etc. are orders of magnitude more
likely to be stolen because they didn't fit laminated glass to the windows.

"Dave Plowman (News)" gurgled happily, sounding
much like they were saying:

Most of us here don't have loose battery connections.

And if we did the car wouldn't start

Umm, cobblers. Many's the time I've come to remove a battery terminal
only to find it's loose - and the thing's been running fine.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article
,
wrote:
I didn't. I simply don't go around disconnecting alternators with the
engine running. I try and design stuff to be foolproof, idiot proof
even - but not c**t proof.

That would explain your failure to see the spikes. Try repeatedly
switching off the rear window heater while measuring next time.

What's that supposed to do?

Then try it for real: switch off all accessories and waggle the loose
battery connection. Dont have your laptop connected

Err, why are you deliberately introducing a red herring? If a battery
terminal is loose the car won't start.

If the op wants to play chance games with their lappy they can, but at
least they're more aware of the problem now.

You use a laptop on the move? Takes all types.

Ever heard of passengers? My lot are fiddling with countless gadgets while
on the move. Some connected to car. The wife has been known to bid on ebay
while we are travelling.

Graham

"Graham" wrote in message

Ever heard of passengers? My lot are fiddling with countless gadgets while
on the move. Some connected to car. The wife has been known to bid on ebay
while we are travelling.

Maybe for a new laptop, just in case the old one fries due to loose battery
terminals :-) Oh, wait a minute, can't happen, the car would never start,
not with a loose battery terminal - the electrons would go on strike.....
what a load of twaddle people spout.

Julian.

In article ,
Andy Wade wrote:
Graham wrote:

So as previously stated, there is no problem. You carry on with your
bad self and I'll carry on without the problems I've not had.

If there's no problem why is the subject of 'load dump' and other
transient overvoltages taken so seriously in the automotive electronics
industry? Why are detailed specifications and standards written and a
great deal of testing done? Why do the semiconductor manufacturers
develop and make automotive-rated devices? Why does Google return over
7,000 hits for "automotive load dump" and nearly 84,000 for "load dump"
most of them probably automotive-related?

People have too much time on their hands. It's simply not a problem in
practice.

--
*Why is the word abbreviation so long? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article 4891478d@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
The far harder problem was dealing with the sensitivity of the radio
receivers, that were working in the 2-30MHz range from being swamped by
the general electrical noise.

That's a different matter from the topic under discussion.

For example, on a tank, when the turret was rotated, one could find
sharp rising spikes of 600-800v on some of the wiring.

So you don't use that wiring as pickup points for accessories.

I suspect that in a typical domestic car and possibly even a commercial
truck, the potential for problems is not as great and certainly
electronics has been improved from the EMC perspective over the last
decade. Nonetheless, the mechanisms for bad things to happen are
certainly present in a motor vehicle.

What you're implying is that laptop makers who supply leads for car use
are unaware of this?

--
*Do infants enjoy infancy as much as adults enjoy adultery? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Adrian wrote:
Most of us here don't have loose battery connections.

And if we did the car wouldn't start

Umm, cobblers. Many's the time I've come to remove a battery terminal
only to find it's loose - and the thing's been running fine.

Well if if it's capable of handling starter current it's not going to
cause problems with the much lower currents from an alternator...

--
*Monday is an awful way to spend 1/7th of your life *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 2008-07-31 11:21:45 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
said:

In article 4891478d@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
The far harder problem was dealing with the sensitivity of the radio
receivers, that were working in the 2-30MHz range from being swamped by
the general electrical noise.

That's a different matter from the topic under discussion.

Of course. I'm simply making the point that conducted spikes in a
vehicle do have the potential to cause damage.


For example, on a tank, when the turret was rotated, one could find
sharp rising spikes of 600-800v on some of the wiring.

So you don't use that wiring as pickup points for accessories.

In a tank you don't get a lot of choice.




I suspect that in a typical domestic car and possibly even a commercial
truck, the potential for problems is not as great and certainly
electronics has been improved from the EMC perspective over the last
decade. Nonetheless, the mechanisms for bad things to happen are
certainly present in a motor vehicle.

What you're implying is that laptop makers who supply leads for car use
are unaware of this?

I would say that that depends on the laptop maker and the accessory.
If the accessory comes from the manufacturer of the laptop as an
adaptor specifically for the purpose, then I would expect them to have
done diligent engineering and if it breaks they get to own the problem.
If I were to buy a cheap Chinese generic accessory, I would have
little confidence in the engineering and not expect redress. Ergo, I
would not buy cheap Chinese car accessory lead.

On 2008-07-31, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Adrian wrote:
Most of us here don't have loose battery connections.

And if we did the car wouldn't start

Umm, cobblers. Many's the time I've come to remove a battery terminal
only to find it's loose - and the thing's been running fine.

Well if if it's capable of handling starter current it's not going to
cause problems with the much lower currents from an alternator...

The car is rarely moving when the starter is being used.

--
David Taylor

In article ,
David Taylor wrote:
On 2008-07-31, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Adrian wrote:
Most of us here don't have loose battery connections.

And if we did the car wouldn't start

Umm, cobblers. Many's the time I've come to remove a battery terminal
only to find it's loose - and the thing's been running fine.

Well if if it's capable of handling starter current it's not going to
cause problems with the much lower currents from an alternator...

The car is rarely moving when the starter is being used.

So you're saying you have a battery connector which rattles loose when the
car is moving but magically tightens itself so the car can start?

Do you write for CSI?

--
*Time is what keeps everything from happening at once.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 2008-07-31, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
David Taylor wrote:
On 2008-07-31, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Adrian wrote:
Most of us here don't have loose battery connections.

And if we did the car wouldn't start

Umm, cobblers. Many's the time I've come to remove a battery terminal
only to find it's loose - and the thing's been running fine.

Well if if it's capable of handling starter current it's not going to
cause problems with the much lower currents from an alternator...

The car is rarely moving when the starter is being used.

So you're saying you have a battery connector which rattles loose when the
car is moving but magically tightens itself so the car can start?

No, I am not.

--
David Taylor

In article 8f82b01c-846e-43b2-b469-328ea802a927
@c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com, says...

Can you read ok Conor? 'Dont disconnect the battery with the laptop
connected' is what was said. Tell you what, since theres no problem
why dont you try it and prove it to us.

I currently am as I'm posting from that very laptop.


--
Conor

I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't
looking good either. - Scott Adams

In article , Andy Wade says...
Why does Google return over
7,000 hits for "automotive load dump"

It returns 31500 for "Andy Wade is a ******".


--
Conor

I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't
looking good either. - Scott Adams

In article 4891478d@qaanaaq, Andy Hall says...

For example, on a tank, when the turret was rotated, one could find
sharp rising spikes of 600-800v on some of the wiring.

A Challenger or Chieftan Tank is not a car.



--
Conor

I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't
looking good either. - Scott Adams

Conor wrote in


In article 4891478d@qaanaaq, Andy Hall says...

For example, on a tank, when the turret was rotated, one could find
sharp rising spikes of 600-800v on some of the wiring.

A Challenger or Chieftan Tank is not a car.

Oh yes, smartypants, it's alright you saying that now.

Next time you're using your laptop in a Chieftain tank, I know what will
happen. You'll forget to ask them not to rotate the turret...

....and then we'll see who's so clever.

--
PeterMcC
If you feel that any of the above is incorrect,
inappropriate or offensive in any way,
please ignore it and accept my apologies.

On 2008-07-31 18:25:16 +0100, Conor said:

In article 4891478d@qaanaaq, Andy Hall says...

For example, on a tank, when the turret was rotated, one could find
sharp rising spikes of 600-800v on some of the wiring.

A Challenger or Chieftan Tank is not a car.

I know.

I am simply pointing out that the possibility exists for poor
performance and failure of electronics if the engineering isn't done
properly.

A single anecdote of "works for me" does not mean that it's impossible
for issues to happen.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:489241c7@qaanaaq...
On 2008-07-31 18:25:16 +0100, Conor said:

In article 4891478d@qaanaaq, Andy Hall says...

For example, on a tank, when the turret was rotated, one could find
sharp rising spikes of 600-800v on some of the wiring.

A Challenger or Chieftan Tank is not a car.

I know.

I am simply pointing out that the possibility exists for poor performance
and failure of electronics if the engineering isn't done properly.

A single anecdote of "works for me" does not mean that it's impossible for
issues to happen.

How about its been working fine for me over 35 years, using all sorts of
delicate equipment in all sorts of crap cars and vans. That seems a fairly
good test to me. These spikes are undoubtedly present, but are they of
sufficient power to cause electronics to blink? My experience and many
others says no.

Graham

On 2008-08-01 00:19:37 +0100, "Graham" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:489241c7@qaanaaq...
On 2008-07-31 18:25:16 +0100, Conor said:

In article 4891478d@qaanaaq, Andy Hall says...

For example, on a tank, when the turret was rotated, one could find
sharp rising spikes of 600-800v on some of the wiring.

A Challenger or Chieftan Tank is not a car.

I know.

I am simply pointing out that the possibility exists for poor performance
and failure of electronics if the engineering isn't done properly.

A single anecdote of "works for me" does not mean that it's impossible for
issues to happen.

How about its been working fine for me over 35 years, using all sorts of
delicate equipment in all sorts of crap cars and vans. That seems a fairly
good test to me. These spikes are undoubtedly present, but are they of
sufficient power to cause electronics to blink?

My experience and many
others says no.


It says that in your experience no. It doesn't say that therefore
there can never be an issue. Correct design involves proper
measurement and having a margin rather than hoping for the best.

In article 48924b2b@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
How about its been working fine for me over 35 years, using all sorts
of delicate equipment in all sorts of crap cars and vans. That seems a
fairly good test to me. These spikes are undoubtedly present, but are
they of sufficient power to cause electronics to blink?

My experience and many others says no.


It says that in your experience no. It doesn't say that therefore
there can never be an issue. Correct design involves proper
measurement and having a margin rather than hoping for the best.

In which case nothing would ever fail.

My point is load dump in a car is rather like the memory effect in Ni-Cads
- everyone who loves to theorise jumps on the band wagon...

--
*A conscience is what hurts when all your other parts feel so good *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article 48924b2b@qaanaaq,
Andy Hall wrote:
How about its been working fine for me over 35 years, using all sorts
of delicate equipment in all sorts of crap cars and vans. That seems a
fairly good test to me. These spikes are undoubtedly present, but are
they of sufficient power to cause electronics to blink?

My experience and many others says no.


It says that in your experience no. It doesn't say that therefore
there can never be an issue. Correct design involves proper
measurement and having a margin rather than hoping for the best.

In which case nothing would ever fail.

My point is load dump in a car is rather like the memory effect in Ni-Cads
- everyone who loves to theorise jumps on the band wagon...

you can alos get a lightining strike on a power line, and destroy your
house wiring.

I have never had electronics connected to a car alternator blow up.

I have had my house wiring destroyed - and a lot of kit with it - by a
direct strike on the overhead PHONE wire.


Almoast all electronics in the car..more these days than ever before,
will have capacitors and clamps to absorb the surges.

I did have a car with a loose battery connection...it ran Ok once it was
running but died at teh traffic lights on New years day at 2 a.m. In
central london. With its lights on.

So teh car had been running with no battery connected.

Nothing blew up. I simply whacked the terminal back on the battery and
drive off.

This seems to be tone of these 'well yes, once upon a time one
alternator with one type of controller did cause a bit of a problem' but
these days its all pretty well sorted.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:48924b2b@qaanaaq...
On 2008-08-01 00:19:37 +0100, "Graham" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:489241c7@qaanaaq...
On 2008-07-31 18:25:16 +0100, Conor said:

In article 4891478d@qaanaaq, Andy Hall says...

For example, on a tank, when the turret was rotated, one could find
sharp rising spikes of 600-800v on some of the wiring.

A Challenger or Chieftan Tank is not a car.

I know.

I am simply pointing out that the possibility exists for poor
performance
and failure of electronics if the engineering isn't done properly.

A single anecdote of "works for me" does not mean that it's impossible
for
issues to happen.

How about its been working fine for me over 35 years, using all sorts of
delicate equipment in all sorts of crap cars and vans. That seems a
fairly
good test to me. These spikes are undoubtedly present, but are they of
sufficient power to cause electronics to blink?

My experience and many
others says no.


It says that in your experience no. It doesn't say that therefore there
can never be an issue. Correct design involves proper measurement and
having a margin rather than hoping for the best.

Stating the bleeding obvious again. And my experience counts for a lot. What
is yours by the way? Mid degree course by any chance and not living in the
real world yet? Nothing can be perfect down to the nth degree and if you
understand anything about electronics you will know its always a compromise
getting the design to work well. I'd like to test you in practice sitting at
a work bench with a soldering iron at the ready and see who could come up
with the first working design of say a 10dB audio preamp, a 30MHz oscillator
and phase locked loop logic and lets say a 5 watt audio amp. I bet you
couldn't even draw a common emitter preamp off the top of your head without
looking for the info or grabbing an op amp. Prove me wrong. Tell my roughly
how to go about designing the phase locked loop logic. Its very easy. Just
the basics. Go on...

Graham

In article ,
Graham wrote:
I'd like to test you in practice sitting at a work bench with a
soldering iron at the ready and see who could come up with the first
working design of say a 10dB audio preamp, a 30MHz oscillator and phase
locked loop logic and lets say a 5 watt audio amp. I bet you couldn't
even draw a common emitter preamp off the top of your head without
looking for the info or grabbing an op amp. Prove me wrong. Tell my
roughly how to go about designing the phase locked loop logic. Its very
easy. Just the basics. Go on...

I wouldn't bet on it. ;-)

--
*What do little birdies see when they get knocked unconscious? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 2008-08-01 10:38:54 +0100, "Graham" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:48924b2b@qaanaaq...
On 2008-08-01 00:19:37 +0100, "Graham" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:489241c7@qaanaaq...
On 2008-07-31 18:25:16 +0100, Conor said:

In article 4891478d@qaanaaq, Andy Hall says...

For example, on a tank, when the turret was rotated, one could find
sharp rising spikes of 600-800v on some of the wiring.

A Challenger or Chieftan Tank is not a car.

I know.

I am simply pointing out that the possibility exists for poor
performance
and failure of electronics if the engineering isn't done properly.

A single anecdote of "works for me" does not mean that it's impossible
for
issues to happen.

How about its been working fine for me over 35 years, using all sorts of
delicate equipment in all sorts of crap cars and vans. That seems a
fairly
good test to me. These spikes are undoubtedly present, but are they of
sufficient power to cause electronics to blink?

My experience and many
others says no.


It says that in your experience no. It doesn't say that therefore there
can never be an issue. Correct design involves proper measurement and
having a margin rather than hoping for the best.

Stating the bleeding obvious again. And my experience counts for a lot.

For you possibly.


What
is yours by the way?

I already explained that


Mid degree course by any chance and not living in the
real world yet?

You're joking.



Nothing can be perfect down to the nth degree and if you
understand anything about electronics you will know its always a compromise
getting the design to work well.

Of course. My point was that one can't rely on cheap Chinese
manufacturers to have done this work.


I'd like to test you in practice sitting at
a work bench with a soldering iron at the ready and see who could come up
with the first working design of say a 10dB audio preamp, a 30MHz oscillator
and phase locked loop logic and lets say a 5 watt audio amp. I bet you
couldn't even draw a common emitter preamp off the top of your head without
looking for the info or grabbing an op amp. Prove me wrong. Tell my roughly
how to go about designing the phase locked loop logic. Its very easy. Just
the basics. Go on...


I was designing this kind of equipment and digital PLLs, mixed logic
families, low power requirement and RF immunity from the 1970s onwards.

I now do more lucrative things.

On 2008-08-01 10:53:38 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
said:

In article ,
Graham wrote:
I'd like to test you in practice sitting at a work bench with a
soldering iron at the ready and see who could come up with the first
working design of say a 10dB audio preamp, a 30MHz oscillator and phase
locked loop logic and lets say a 5 watt audio amp. I bet you couldn't
even draw a common emitter preamp off the top of your head without
looking for the info or grabbing an op amp. Prove me wrong. Tell my
roughly how to go about designing the phase locked loop logic. Its very
easy. Just the basics. Go on...

I wouldn't bet on it. ;-)

You're right. He shouldn't.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:4892e193@qaanaaq...
On 2008-08-01 10:38:54 +0100, "Graham" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:48924b2b@qaanaaq...
On 2008-08-01 00:19:37 +0100, "Graham" said:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news:489241c7@qaanaaq...
On 2008-07-31 18:25:16 +0100, Conor said:

In article 4891478d@qaanaaq, Andy Hall says...

For example, on a tank, when the turret was rotated, one could find
sharp rising spikes of 600-800v on some of the wiring.

A Challenger or Chieftan Tank is not a car.

I know.

I am simply pointing out that the possibility exists for poor
performance
and failure of electronics if the engineering isn't done properly.

A single anecdote of "works for me" does not mean that it's impossible
for
issues to happen.

How about its been working fine for me over 35 years, using all sorts
of
delicate equipment in all sorts of crap cars and vans. That seems a
fairly
good test to me. These spikes are undoubtedly present, but are they of
sufficient power to cause electronics to blink?

My experience and many
others says no.


It says that in your experience no. It doesn't say that therefore
there
can never be an issue. Correct design involves proper measurement and
having a margin rather than hoping for the best.

Stating the bleeding obvious again. And my experience counts for a lot.

For you possibly.


What
is yours by the way?

I already explained that


Mid degree course by any chance and not living in the
real world yet?

You're joking.



Nothing can be perfect down to the nth degree and if you
understand anything about electronics you will know its always a
compromise
getting the design to work well.

Of course. My point was that one can't rely on cheap Chinese
manufacturers to have done this work.


I'd like to test you in practice sitting at
a work bench with a soldering iron at the ready and see who could come up
with the first working design of say a 10dB audio preamp, a 30MHz
oscillator
and phase locked loop logic and lets say a 5 watt audio amp. I bet you
couldn't even draw a common emitter preamp off the top of your head
without
looking for the info or grabbing an op amp. Prove me wrong. Tell my
roughly
how to go about designing the phase locked loop logic. Its very easy.
Just
the basics. Go on...


I was designing this kind of equipment and digital PLLs, mixed logic
families, low power requirement and RF immunity from the 1970s onwards.

I now do more lucrative things.

Then you won't find this question very taxing then. What's the reactance of
a 470uF capacitor at 50Hz?

On 2008-08-01 12:12:39 +0100, "Graham" said:

Then you won't find this question very taxing then. What's the reactance of
a 470uF capacitor at 50Hz?

I'll let you use your calculator to work that out using (2 x pi x f x C)^-1

I haven't needed to deal in elementary exam questions for very many years.

Graham wrote:
"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:4892e193@qaanaaq...
On 2008-08-01 10:38:54 +0100, "Graham" said:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:48924b2b@qaanaaq...
On 2008-08-01 00:19:37 +0100, "Graham" said:

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
news:489241c7@qaanaaq...
On 2008-07-31 18:25:16 +0100, Conor said:

In article 4891478d@qaanaaq, Andy Hall says...

For example, on a tank, when the turret was rotated, one could find
sharp rising spikes of 600-800v on some of the wiring.

A Challenger or Chieftan Tank is not a car.
I know.

I am simply pointing out that the possibility exists for poor
performance
and failure of electronics if the engineering isn't done properly.

A single anecdote of "works for me" does not mean that it's impossible
for
issues to happen.
How about its been working fine for me over 35 years, using all sorts
of
delicate equipment in all sorts of crap cars and vans. That seems a
fairly
good test to me. These spikes are undoubtedly present, but are they of
sufficient power to cause electronics to blink?
My experience and many
others says no.

It says that in your experience no. It doesn't say that therefore
there
can never be an issue. Correct design involves proper measurement and
having a margin rather than hoping for the best.
Stating the bleeding obvious again. And my experience counts for a lot.
For you possibly.


What
is yours by the way?
I already explained that


Mid degree course by any chance and not living in the
real world yet?
You're joking.



Nothing can be perfect down to the nth degree and if you
understand anything about electronics you will know its always a
compromise
getting the design to work well.
Of course. My point was that one can't rely on cheap Chinese
manufacturers to have done this work.


I'd like to test you in practice sitting at
a work bench with a soldering iron at the ready and see who could come up
with the first working design of say a 10dB audio preamp, a 30MHz
oscillator
and phase locked loop logic and lets say a 5 watt audio amp. I bet you
couldn't even draw a common emitter preamp off the top of your head
without
looking for the info or grabbing an op amp. Prove me wrong. Tell my
roughly
how to go about designing the phase locked loop logic. Its very easy.
Just
the basics. Go on...

I was designing this kind of equipment and digital PLLs, mixed logic
families, low power requirement and RF immunity from the 1970s onwards.

I now do more lucrative things.

Then you won't find this question very taxing then. What's the reactance of
a 470uF capacitor at 50Hz?


Completely imaginary. do keep up there at the back ;-)

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Completely imaginary. do keep up there at the back ;-)

Tee hee. A class answer that, except that it's wrong :~). The
reactance, a certain number of ohms, is a real value. It's the reactive
component of the impedance that's purely imaginary. IOW in Z = R + jX
the value of X is real.

--
Andy

"Andy Wade" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Completely imaginary. do keep up there at the back ;-)

Tee hee. A class answer that, except that it's wrong :~). The reactance,
a certain number of ohms, is a real value. It's the reactive component of
the impedance that's purely imaginary. IOW in Z = R + jX the value of X
is real.

Just give the answer you dreamers

Graham

In article 489241c7@qaanaaq, Andy Hall says...
On 2008-07-31 18:25:16 +0100, Conor said:

In article 4891478d@qaanaaq, Andy Hall says...

For example, on a tank, when the turret was rotated, one could find
sharp rising spikes of 600-800v on some of the wiring.

A Challenger or Chieftan Tank is not a car.

I know.

I am simply pointing out that the possibility exists for poor
performance and failure of electronics if the engineering isn't done
properly.

But as we're talking about cars and trucks, bringing in a tank is a bit
pointless.

A single anecdote of "works for me" does not mean that it's impossible
for issues to happen.

Considering the amount of times it's been done, if it were to be
possible, surely it would have by now?

--
Conor

I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't
looking good either. - Scott Adams

On 2008-08-01 16:18:52 +0100, "Graham" said:


"Andy Wade" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Completely imaginary. do keep up there at the back ;-)

Tee hee. A class answer that, except that it's wrong :~). The reactance,
a certain number of ohms, is a real value. It's the reactive component of
the impedance that's purely imaginary. IOW in Z = R + jX the value of X
is real.

Just give the answer you dreamers

Graham

Ah, but you see, we aren't scratching around in the dirt any longer and
have moved on to greater things.

By 1980 I had figured out that sitting around designing electronics,
although interesting and fun, was not going to offer the advancement
and reward that I was looking for.

On 2008-08-01 16:39:35 +0100, Conor said:

In article 489241c7@qaanaaq, Andy Hall says...
On 2008-07-31 18:25:16 +0100, Conor said:

In article 4891478d@qaanaaq, Andy Hall says...

For example, on a tank, when the turret was rotated, one could find
sharp rising spikes of 600-800v on some of the wiring.

A Challenger or Chieftan Tank is not a car.

I know.

I am simply pointing out that the possibility exists for poor
performance and failure of electronics if the engineering isn't done
properly.

But as we're talking about cars and trucks, bringing in a tank is a bit
pointless.

It was only to make the point that a large vehicle with electric motors
is apt to generate very large spikes. I did also test and measure
the electrical environment in smaller vehicles and they are far from
electrically clean both in terms of conducted and radiated emissions.




A single anecdote of "works for me" does not mean that it's impossible
for issues to happen.

Considering the amount of times it's been done, if it were to be
possible, surely it would have by now?

My point was that if one buys properly designed equipment such as
charging leads, filters etc. then yes. If it's an unknown piece of
junk from China, it may not be trustworthy.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message news:48933092@qaanaaq...
On 2008-08-01 16:18:52 +0100, "Graham" said:


"Andy Wade" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Completely imaginary. do keep up there at the back ;-)

Tee hee. A class answer that, except that it's wrong :~). The
reactance,
a certain number of ohms, is a real value. It's the reactive component
of
the impedance that's purely imaginary. IOW in Z = R + jX the value of X
is real.

Just give the answer you dreamers

Graham

Ah, but you see, we aren't scratching around in the dirt any longer and
have moved on to greater things.

By 1980 I had figured out that sitting around designing electronics,
although interesting and fun, was not going to offer the advancement and
reward that I was looking for.

As Dave Plowman and myself predicted, You Failed This Test and proved you
are just flapping your gums with bull if you cannot answer that simple
electronics question. The air of BS was strongly in the air, but just had to
be sure. God I couldn't have made it any simpler. Anything less and we would
have been at 1st year and ohms law!

Graham

In article 489331ae@qaanaaq, Andy Hall says...

Considering the amount of times it's been done, if it were to be
possible, surely it would have by now?

My point was that if one buys properly designed equipment such as
charging leads, filters etc. then yes. If it's an unknown piece of
junk from China, it may not be trustworthy.

But virtually everything electronic we have comes from there. Hell,
even the power brick for my Compaq is made in China.


--
Conor

I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't
looking good either. - Scott Adams