In message , Andy Hall writes

If some bureaucratic idiot in a post office wants to play funny buggers

The bureaucratic idiot in the PO has *very* strict rules to follow, as
laid down by DVLA. DVLA have ruled that a home printed pdf certificate
of insurance is *not* acceptable as proof of insurance. The problem, of
course, is spotting them, so we don't :-)
--
Graeme

Graeme wrote:

I cannot discuss the rights and wrongs of renewing online, or by
telephone, as it is not something I have tried. I have, though, been
taxing my own vehicles for nearly forty years, and have yet to
experience a problem - the current system is a lot easier and quicker
than the old systems.

Online is promoted as all part of the system... flawed as the rest of it
it seems to be.

No well, indeed. Here is a reminder to do something that you can't do
yet.

Do your insurance renewal documents not arrive before the renewal date?
Mine do.

So do mine. If they arrive, and I phone up and say "yes please I would
like to renew", they don't say oh sorry sir, you can't do that til the
15th. They are happy to comply. In fact if I take no action, then they
assume that all is well and renew for me.

cheque payable to DVLA.

Well that is just daft, I mean I know that is who you are actually
paying, but since when did you start going about writing out cheques
to people and putting *their* name on it?

You would visit B&Q, purchase a Black and Dekker drill, and expect
payment to be to Black & Dekker?

Depends on if you view the PO as a retailer, adding value to the
transaction, or simply a handling agent for DVLA.

Or expect to pay by credit card.

The horror of it.

Discussing how the system *should* work is pointless. It doesn't. Lobby
your MP. Lobby DVLA - they make the rules. All I'm trying to say is

It seems to me that if the PO is going to act as B&Q in your example
above, then how they take payment is down to the PO not my MP or DVLA.
You can't have it both ways! ;-)

You raised the concept of someone wanting to pay by cc as a failing of
their intelligence etc. I was simply highlighting that it was a
perfectly sensible thing to want to do.

that the current system is generally flawless at my PO - the only
problems are caused by people who will not look at the form.

Or people who look at the form, and do not pick up all the relevant
points due to its poor design.

There are two classes of people - the first could perhaps be described
as 'educationally challenged'. The don't know, and know they don't
know, so bring every piece of paper they can find to the PO, where their
friendly sub postmaster (i.e. me) sorts the wheat from the chaff, and
issues a disk. Easy. Painless. Fast.

educationally challenged? Is it fair to assume that everyone should be
fully aware of *all* of the requirements of every form obsessed
organisation that they need to deal with? Is it fair to question their
intelligence when they dont?

The second type of person knows everything, thinks all rules and
regulations are for other people, wants to tax his new Range Rover even
though the certificate of insurance clearly refers to the Subaru he sold
six months ago, and is generally a PITA. Never wrong, always loud,
nothing is *ever* his (or her) fault.

Yup, I sympathise with you on that. However you meet this type of person
in all walks of life. On occasion I have met them sitting behind the
glass in a post office.

A final thought - POs *want* to issue MVLS, believe me. Desperately.
When your application is rejected at the PO counter, it hurts the sub
postmaster more than it hurts the applicant.

So the easier you can make the process then the better it is for you and
your customers. Online checking of MoT and insurance docs plus payment
by CC would solve a good many problems for both of you.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message , at 10:08:05 on Sat, 9 Jun 2007, Andy
Hall remarked:
- The piece of paper is too small to be read on a moving vehicle either
by eye or by camera

They are colour coded sufficiently that grossly out of date discs can be
easily spotted from a distance.
--
Roland Perry

Graeme wrote:
In message , Andy Hall writes

If some bureaucratic idiot in a post office wants to play funny buggers

The bureaucratic idiot in the PO has *very* strict rules to follow, as
laid down by DVLA. DVLA have ruled that a home printed pdf certificate
of insurance is *not* acceptable as proof of insurance. The problem, of
course, is spotting them, so we don't :-)

When I used to get insurance certificates from a broker, they were "home
printed" by them. How do the DVLA suppose you are going to differentiate
between a cert printed on my Laserjet 2200DN and one printed on my brokers?

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message , John
Rumm writes
Graeme wrote:

educationally challenged? Is it fair to assume that everyone should be
fully aware of *all* of the requirements of every form obsessed
organisation that they need to deal with?

Absolutely not, which is why I said that I am very happy to help anyone
who is not quite clear on how to complete a form, which documents are
required, etc. That, as I see it, is part of the role of the sub
postmaster.

Never wrong, always loud, nothing is *ever* his (or her) fault.

Yup, I sympathise with you on that. However you meet this type of
person in all walks of life. On occasion I have met them sitting behind
the glass in a post office.

Grin Yes, that I can believe.

A final thought - POs *want* to issue MVLS, believe me. Desperately.
When your application is rejected at the PO counter, it hurts the sub
postmaster more than it hurts the applicant.

So the easier you can make the process then the better it is for you
and your customers. Online checking of MoT and insurance docs plus
payment by CC would solve a good many problems for both of you.

Agreed - but such things are not within the power of the local PO. Yes,
I'll bend over backwards to help anyone, with any type of transaction,
but I cannot act outwith the rules, not because I'm a slavish follower
of such things, but because I run the very real risk of having my
contract terminated.
--
Graeme

On 2007-06-09 11:12:53 +0100, FKruger said:

On Sat, 9 Jun 2007 01:34:05 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On 2007-06-09 01:02:41 +0100, raden said:

In message , Andy Hall writes
Or bring to the PO a cheque payable to DVLA.

This would be reasonable since the money is for the DVLA, other than
writing cheques is ridiculous anyway.



Or expect to pay by credit card.

Have you noticed the ridiculous 2 1/2% or whatever they profiteeringly
charge for using a credit card

It's £2.50. Just over 1%. I thought it was well worth that,
not to have to go to the post office.



They are also not paying commision to the Post Office so they have
allready gotten more money by stealth I dont see why they should need
an extra £2.50.

So you're telling me that the post office is a charity?

It's still worth £2.50 not to go there.

On 2007-06-09 11:52:49 +0100, Roland Perry said:

In message , at 10:08:05 on Sat, 9 Jun 2007, Andy
Hall remarked:
- The piece of paper is too small to be read on a moving vehicle either
by eye or by camera

They are colour coded sufficiently that grossly out of date discs can
be easily spotted from a distance.

.... and this happens how frequently?

Graeme wrote:

Or arrive with a policy, or a schedule,
but not a certificate.

Ah yes, the drooling retard counter clerk's favourite. One is expected
to know that the piece of paper must have the word "certificate" printed
on it. All else is irrelevant. One may well have a document which gives
an insurers reference, details of cover, proof of payment and a full
description of cover, limitations of cover and period of insurance but
without that word "certificate" the droid behind the coutner will do
nothing.

The last think they will think fo doing is explaining themselves. They
will simply push the forms back and grunt.

Mike Clarke wrote:

It puzzles me why they insist on originals of insurance certificates these
days. They're invariably just printouts from laser printers, a good
photocopy would be virtually identical.

Exactly, they make a big fuss yet I could knock out a convincing
insurance certificate in ooohhh five minutes maximum.

On 2007-06-09 11:37:02 +0100, Graeme said:

In message , Andy Hall writes
On 2007-06-09 09:44:13 +0100, Graeme said:

Do your insurance renewal documents not arrive before the renewal
date? Mine do.

Yes they do and you can initiate the renewal to be effective from the
required date.

So, exactly the same as a tax disk, then.

No, there's a 10 day window. Actually less where a post office is
involved since it isn't open 24x7



You would visit B&Q, purchase a Black and Dekker drill, and expect
payment to be to Black & Dekker?

Is the post office entering into a contract of supply for the tax disc?
No. It is purely a collection method.

One could argue that collecting a drill at B&Q is exactly the same.

There's no need to have a form in the first place.

Unnecessary

Also unnecessary.

Once again you are arguing against a system that is in place, which is
pointless. There must be millions of motorists who feel the same.
Whinging achieves nothing - do something positive to change the system,
if you don't like it. This is, after all, supposedly a democracy.

If it were the only system available, then it would be worth doing
something. As it is, it will die by natural market force.




A final thought - POs *want* to issue MVLS, believe me. Desperately.

Why?

Because they are the most profitable regular transaction we handle.

But it's pointless. What value does the post office add?




It's all the hangover of a bygone era

Yes, of course it is, as is the 'gas board', the NHS, and any other
government (national or local) department.

Quite. Ultimately these will be replaced.


There are tier upon tier of these people, most of whom have nothing to
do but count paper clips. Whilst that is perhaps not quite true, it
seems to me that there is a huge duplication of effort, not to mention
job protection, and an attitude of 'Why change, we have always done it
like that'. You know it, I know it, but if a system exists, whether to
tax your car or pay your council tax, you have little option but to
follow the system. Which is not to say that the system is correct, or
should not be changed.

Except that I don't have to use the post office to tax my car.

I am down to only one transaction that I do at a post office and that
is to send packs of documents to my accountant. As soon as I can
find time to look for an alternative who will collect, then that will
go as well.

On 2007-06-09 12:04:15 +0100, Graeme said:

In message , John
Rumm writes
Graeme wrote:

educationally challenged? Is it fair to assume that everyone should be
fully aware of *all* of the requirements of every form obsessed
organisation that they need to deal with?

Absolutely not, which is why I said that I am very happy to help anyone
who is not quite clear on how to complete a form, which documents are
required, etc. That, as I see it, is part of the role of the sub
postmaster.

Why? The form is only complex to complete to the extent that it is
made so by the DVLA.

The web site procedure is perfectly simple. Enter the renewal number
and a credit card number and that's about it.



Never wrong, always loud, nothing is *ever* his (or her) fault.

Yup, I sympathise with you on that. However you meet this type of
person in all walks of life. On occasion I have met them sitting behind
the glass in a post office.

Grin Yes, that I can believe.

A final thought - POs *want* to issue MVLS, believe me. Desperately.
When your application is rejected at the PO counter, it hurts the sub
postmaster more than it hurts the applicant.

So the easier you can make the process then the better it is for you
and your customers. Online checking of MoT and insurance docs plus
payment by CC would solve a good many problems for both of you.

Agreed - but such things are not within the power of the local PO.
Yes, I'll bend over backwards to help anyone, with any type of
transaction, but I cannot act outwith the rules, not because I'm a
slavish follower of such things, but because I run the very real risk
of having my contract terminated.

It's a pretty tenuous position, isn't it?

On 2007-06-09 11:37:18 +0100, Graeme said:

In message , Andy Hall writes

If some bureaucratic idiot in a post office wants to play funny buggers

The bureaucratic idiot in the PO has *very* strict rules to follow, as
laid down by DVLA. DVLA have ruled that a home printed pdf certificate
of insurance is *not* acceptable as proof of insurance. The problem,
of course, is spotting them, so we don't :-)

Quite. Paper for its own sake. With the online application, the
issue doesn't arise.

On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 13:27:50 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I recieve a notice to relicense my car.

Its off road and has been for two years. So its a zero cost SORN..

I think I've always just ticked a box on the form they sent me and
returned it back to them via a post box, which in light of your
experiences sounds a damn sight easier!

"Sorry, we don't have a record of that reference number"

I seem to recall my folks having horrible troubles [1] a while back
because the reference number required by the DVLA didn't match anything on
the V11 - in the end it required talking to a human being at DVLA, who
took the (much shorter) reference which *was* on the form, but didn't have
any explanation for why the online / automated systems didn't tie up with
their paper forms.

[1] OK, so that's a slight exaggeration. But you'd think that if any gov't
entity is going to introduce public-driven procedures, then the data
expected would at least match the data provided!

In message , Steve Firth
writes
Graeme wrote:

Or arrive with a policy, or a schedule,
but not a certificate.

Ah yes, the drooling retard counter clerk's favourite. One is expected
to know that the piece of paper must have the word "certificate" printed
on it. All else is irrelevant. One may well have a document which gives
an insurers reference, details of cover, proof of payment and a full
description of cover, limitations of cover and period of insurance but
without that word "certificate" the droid behind the coutner will do
nothing.

The drooling retard is, of course, the sub human on the public side of
the counter, who is perfectly capable of reading 'Certificate of
Insurance' then produces something else. Said retard will then spend
twenty minutes in the PO shouting and screaming because HE doesn't have
to produce a certificate, HE knows he is insured, HE can do whatever he
likes, HE does not have to obey the same laws as everyone else blah blah
blah.
--
Graeme

In message , John
Rumm writes
Graeme wrote:
In message , Andy Hall writes

If some bureaucratic idiot in a post office wants to play funny buggers
The bureaucratic idiot in the PO has *very* strict rules to follow,
as laid down by DVLA. DVLA have ruled that a home printed pdf
certificate of insurance is *not* acceptable as proof of insurance.
The problem, of course, is spotting them, so we don't :-)

When I used to get insurance certificates from a broker, they were
"home printed" by them. How do the DVLA suppose you are going to
differentiate between a cert printed on my Laserjet 2200DN and one
printed on my brokers?

You tell me. I'll accept whatever looks like a Certificate.
--
Graeme

John Rumm ) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying :

The bureaucratic idiot in the PO has *very* strict rules to follow,
as laid down by DVLA. DVLA have ruled that a home printed pdf
certificate of insurance is *not* acceptable as proof of insurance.
The problem, of course, is spotting them, so we don't :-)

When I used to get insurance certificates from a broker, they were
"home printed" by them. How do the DVLA suppose you are going to
differentiate between a cert printed on my Laserjet 2200DN and one
printed on my brokers?

In the case of most of the insurance certificates I've got here, the
watermark is a damn good clue - and is firmly pointed-to by the certificate
stating in big letters that without the watermark it's not genuine...

OTOH, I taxed a car last night despite not having received the paperwork
for the insurance (renewed last week) or the MOT it passed on Thursday.
Very easy. Reg no, Doc ref off V5, debit card. Quicker than walking to the
PO - who don't like you having a glass of wine whilst in the queue, either.

In message , at 12:33:13 on Sat, 9 Jun 2007, Andy
Hall remarked:
- The piece of paper is too small to be read on a moving vehicle
either by eye or by camera
They are colour coded sufficiently that grossly out of date discs
can be easily spotted from a distance.

... and this happens how frequently?

I have no idea how often this visual clue is the trigger for a more
exhaustive investigation. But it's undeniable that the clue is more
obvious to an observer than the expiry date.
--
Roland Perry

Andy Hall wrote:

The web site procedure is perfectly simple. Enter the renewal number
and a credit card number and that's about it.

When the form has the number - I have yet to get one that does.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Jules wrote:
On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 13:27:50 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I recieve a notice to relicense my car.

Its off road and has been for two years. So its a zero cost SORN..

I think I've always just ticked a box on the form they sent me and
returned it back to them via a post box, which in light of your
experiences sounds a damn sight easier!

"Sorry, we don't have a record of that reference number"

I seem to recall my folks having horrible troubles [1] a while back
because the reference number required by the DVLA didn't match anything on
the V11 - in the end it required talking to a human being at DVLA, who
took the (much shorter) reference which *was* on the form, but didn't have
any explanation for why the online / automated systems didn't tie up with
their paper forms.

[1] OK, so that's a slight exaggeration. But you'd think that if any gov't
entity is going to introduce public-driven procedures, then the data
expected would at least match the data provided!

The government, like the septics, can be "relied upon to get things
right, after they have exhausted all other alternatives".

Its bureaucracy by natural selection, rather than intelligent design.

Graeme wrote:

In message , Steve Firth
writes
Graeme wrote:

Or arrive with a policy, or a schedule,
but not a certificate.

Ah yes, the drooling retard counter clerk's favourite. One is expected
to know that the piece of paper must have the word "certificate" printed
on it. All else is irrelevant. One may well have a document which gives
an insurers reference, details of cover, proof of payment and a full
description of cover, limitations of cover and period of insurance but
without that word "certificate" the droid behind the coutner will do
nothing.

The drooling retard is, of course

Anyone who works for the Post Office. Now **** off back to poking keys
with your headstick.

On 2007-06-09 15:17:29 +0100, Roland Perry said:

In message , at 12:33:13 on Sat, 9 Jun 2007, Andy
Hall remarked:
- The piece of paper is too small to be read on a moving vehicle either
by eye or by camera
They are colour coded sufficiently that grossly out of date discs can
be easily spotted from a distance.

... and this happens how frequently?

I have no idea how often this visual clue is the trigger for a more
exhaustive investigation. But it's undeniable that the clue is more
obvious to an observer than the expiry date.

It remains pointless. The DVLA have records of cars and of when tax
was last paid. That is sufficient for the purposes of collecting tax.
It doesn't also need a piece of paper.

On 2007-06-09 15:19:25 +0100, John Rumm said:

Andy Hall wrote:

The web site procedure is perfectly simple. Enter the renewal number
and a credit card number and that's about it.

When the form has the number - I have yet to get one that does.

The first one that I had didn't. The last one did. If it hadn't
I would have escalated a complaint.

On 2007-06-09 15:08:12 +0100, Adrian said:

John Rumm ) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying :

The bureaucratic idiot in the PO has *very* strict rules to follow,
as laid down by DVLA. DVLA have ruled that a home printed pdf
certificate of insurance is *not* acceptable as proof of insurance.
The problem, of course, is spotting them, so we don't :-)

When I used to get insurance certificates from a broker, they were
"home printed" by them. How do the DVLA suppose you are going to
differentiate between a cert printed on my Laserjet 2200DN and one
printed on my brokers?

In the case of most of the insurance certificates I've got here, the
watermark is a damn good clue - and is firmly pointed-to by the certificate
stating in big letters that without the watermark it's not genuine...


Hangover from a bygone era.....




OTOH, I taxed a car last night despite not having received the paperwork
for the insurance (renewed last week) or the MOT it passed on Thursday.
Very easy. Reg no, Doc ref off V5, debit card. Quicker than walking to the
PO - who don't like you having a glass of wine whilst in the queue, either.

Hmm... must try that.

On 2007-06-09 15:27:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher said:

Jules wrote:
On Fri, 08 Jun 2007 13:27:50 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

I recieve a notice to relicense my car.

Its off road and has been for two years. So its a zero cost SORN..

I think I've always just ticked a box on the form they sent me and
returned it back to them via a post box, which in light of your
experiences sounds a damn sight easier!

"Sorry, we don't have a record of that reference number"

I seem to recall my folks having horrible troubles [1] a while back
because the reference number required by the DVLA didn't match anything on
the V11 - in the end it required talking to a human being at DVLA, who
took the (much shorter) reference which *was* on the form, but didn't have
any explanation for why the online / automated systems didn't tie up with
their paper forms.

[1] OK, so that's a slight exaggeration. But you'd think that if any gov't
entity is going to introduce public-driven procedures, then the data
expected would at least match the data provided!

The government, like the septics, can be "relied upon to get things
right, after they have exhausted all other alternatives".

Its bureaucracy by natural selection, rather than intelligent design.

I didn't think that you thought that intelligent design was a good thing ;-)

John Rumm wrote:

Graeme wrote:

[snip]

Do your insurance renewal documents not arrive before the renewal date?
Mine do.

So do mine. If they arrive, and I phone up and say "yes please I would
like to renew", they don't say oh sorry sir, you can't do that til the
15th. They are happy to comply. In fact if I take no action, then they
assume that all is well and renew for me.

I think the big difference here is that the the issue of the tax disk is
serving two purposes, firstly the extraction of money from us vehicle
owners and secondly keeping tabs on who owns what so that PC plod knows who
to call on after the vehicle has been seen doing naughty things. While our
government would be delighted to extract the money without any action on
our part they need us to jump through a set of hoops to confirm that we
posses the vehicle and have complied with some of their other rules too.
The insurance company on the other hand will be happy to take your money -
if you no longer need the policy then it's your problem, not theirs.

--
Mike Clarke

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The government, like the septics, can be "relied upon to get things
right, after they have exhausted all other alternatives".

Its bureaucracy by natural selection, rather than intelligent design.

And as such like any good selfish meme serves only to perpetuate itself.
All other functions are entirely incidental to propagation.

Yep, hard to argue with that.

In message , Andy Hall writes
On 2007-06-09 11:37:02 +0100, Graeme said:
So, exactly the same as a tax disk, then.

No, there's a 10 day window. Actually less where a post office is
involved since it isn't open 24x7

How is the 15th of the month until the end of the month a ten day
window? How difficult is it for people to get to a PO within a 15 day
period?

Yes, of course it is, as is the 'gas board', the NHS, and any other
government (national or local) department.

Quite. Ultimately these will be replaced.

At last. Ultimately. Yes indeed, but ultimately is not today, and it
is here and now that is under discussion. There are a lot of things
that will not be here ultimately. Take the private car, for example. Do
away with it, and you can close POs at the same time. Listen to the
howling and gnashing of teeth, though, as all the selfish people of the
country try to argue that they need a car, they are a special case, they
cannot survive without a car. Tosh.

--
Graeme

In message , Andy Hall writes
On 2007-06-09 12:04:15 +0100, Graeme said:

Agreed - but such things are not within the power of the local PO.
Yes, I'll bend over backwards to help anyone, with any type of
transaction, but I cannot act outwith the rules, not because I'm a
slavish follower of such things, but because I run the very real risk
of having my contract terminated.

It's a pretty tenuous position, isn't it?

Very much so, but I think you'll find that a huge number of sub
postmasters are working a 'second career' and rubbing their hands with
glee, at the thought of substantial pay offs when their particular
office is closed.
--
Graeme

In message . 131,
Adrian writes
Quicker than walking to the
PO - who don't like you having a glass of wine whilst in the queue, either.

Au contraire! You are perfectly welcome to drink wine in my PO - as
long as you share :-)
--
Graeme

In message , Steve Firth
writes
Graeme wrote:

The drooling retard is, of course

Anyone who works for the Post Office. Now **** off back to poking keys
with your headstick.

No doubt you are the type of brain dead imbecile who shouts and screams
whenever he cannot get his own way. What you are far too stupid to
realise is that the PO is doing civilisation a favour by keeping the
dregs of society off the roads.
--
Graeme

In message , at 15:51:08 on Sat, 9 Jun 2007, Andy
Hall remarked:
- The piece of paper is too small to be read on a moving vehicle
either by eye or by camera
They are colour coded sufficiently that grossly out of date discs
can be easily spotted from a distance.
... and this happens how frequently?
I have no idea how often this visual clue is the trigger for a more
exhaustive investigation. But it's undeniable that the clue is more
obvious to an observer than the expiry date.

It remains pointless. The DVLA have records of cars and of when tax
was last paid. That is sufficient for the purposes of collecting tax.
It doesn't also need a piece of paper.

It does when enforcement continues to happen "on the streets".
--
Roland Perry

On 2007-06-09 16:06:41 +0100, Graeme said:

In message , Andy Hall writes
On 2007-06-09 11:37:02 +0100, Graeme said:
So, exactly the same as a tax disk, then.

No, there's a 10 day window. Actually less where a post office is
involved since it isn't open 24x7

How is the 15th of the month until the end of the month a ten day
window? How difficult is it for people to get to a PO within a 15 day
period?

Because post offices are normally open on Monday to Friday and on
Saturday mornings. During a 15 calendar day period there can be
three Sundays and two Saturday afternoons, thus taking 4 days out.

If somebody is traveling or on vacation, it's easily possible to be
away for that time.




Yes, of course it is, as is the 'gas board', the NHS, and any other
government (national or local) department.

Quite. Ultimately these will be replaced.

At last. Ultimately. Yes indeed, but ultimately is not today, and it
is here and now that is under discussion. There are a lot of things
that will not be here ultimately. Take the private car, for example.
Do away with it, and you can close POs at the same time. Listen to the
howling and gnashing of teeth, though, as all the selfish people of the
country try to argue that they need a car, they are a special case,
they cannot survive without a car. Tosh.

I'll settle for the government being out of the service delivery business.

On 2007-06-09 16:09:39 +0100, Graeme said:

In message , Andy Hall writes
On 2007-06-09 12:04:15 +0100, Graeme said:

Agreed - but such things are not within the power of the local PO. Yes,
I'll bend over backwards to help anyone, with any type of transaction,
but I cannot act outwith the rules, not because I'm a slavish follower
of such things, but because I run the very real risk of having my
contract terminated.

It's a pretty tenuous position, isn't it?

Very much so, but I think you'll find that a huge number of sub
postmasters are working a 'second career' and rubbing their hands with
glee, at the thought of substantial pay offs when their particular
office is closed.

I hope that they are. Are the pay offs predetermined?

Andy Hall ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying :

How is the 15th of the month until the end of the month a ten day
window? How difficult is it for people to get to a PO within a 15
day period?

Because post offices are normally open on Monday to Friday and on
Saturday mornings. During a 15 calendar day period there can be
three Sundays and two Saturday afternoons, thus taking 4 days out.

You forgot Early Closing afternoons and Bank Holidays. Not, of course, to
mention that many people don't have easy access to a PO during the working
day - leaving them Saturday mornings as their only realistic access.

Graeme wrote:

What you are far too stupid to realise is that the PO is doing
civilisation a favour by keeping the dregs of society off the roads.

No, I'm grateful to the Post Office for keeping them behind the counter
where they belong.

Mike Clarke wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

Graeme wrote:

[snip]

Do your insurance renewal documents not arrive before the renewal date?
Mine do.
So do mine. If they arrive, and I phone up and say "yes please I would
like to renew", they don't say oh sorry sir, you can't do that til the
15th. They are happy to comply. In fact if I take no action, then they
assume that all is well and renew for me.

I think the big difference here is that the the issue of the tax disk is
serving two purposes, firstly the extraction of money from us vehicle

Agree with the first, although there is no need for a paper disc anymore.

owners and secondly keeping tabs on who owns what so that PC plod knows who
to call on after the vehicle has been seen doing naughty things. While our

I think that is what the vehicle registration is for, I can't see the
tax disc helps here. If the vehicle is untaxed then they already know
which ones and where to find them.

government would be delighted to extract the money without any action on
our part they need us to jump through a set of hoops to confirm that we
posses the vehicle and have complied with some of their other rules too.
The insurance company on the other hand will be happy to take your money -
if you no longer need the policy then it's your problem, not theirs.

Same with a tax disc - you have to return it for a refund if you need one.

--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

John Rumm ) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying :

although there is no need for a paper disc anymore.

Hmmm. I'd certainly keep the disk - and back it up with visible insurance
and MOT disks, too, as has worked fine for the French for years.

Just make display of the sticker that's part of the current computerised
MOT mandatory, and print it so the details are visible from outside.

Adrian wrote:
John Rumm ) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying :

although there is no need for a paper disc anymore.

Hmmm. I'd certainly keep the disk - and back it up with visible insurance
and MOT disks, too, as has worked fine for the French for years.

Just make display of the sticker that's part of the current computerised
MOT mandatory, and print it so the details are visible from outside.

And hand yet more power to some peaked cap jobsworth who will issue a
fixed penalty notice "because he was unable to read it clearly"? (i.e.
obscured by snow or illiteracy).

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 2007-06-09 16:19:57 +0100, Roland Perry said:

In message , at 15:51:08 on Sat, 9 Jun 2007, Andy
Hall remarked:
- The piece of paper is too small to be read on a moving vehicle either
by eye or by camera
They are colour coded sufficiently that grossly out of date discs can
be easily spotted from a distance.
... and this happens how frequently?
I have no idea how often this visual clue is the trigger for a more
exhaustive investigation. But it's undeniable that the clue is more
obvious to an observer than the expiry date.

It remains pointless. The DVLA have records of cars and of when tax
was last paid. That is sufficient for the purposes of collecting tax.
It doesn't also need a piece of paper.

It does when enforcement continues to happen "on the streets".

That's an extremely inefficient way of doing enforcement in terms of ROI.

On 2007-06-09 13:19:59 +0100, Owain said:

Andy Hall wrote:
I am down to only one transaction that I do at a post office and that
is to send packs of documents to my accountant. As soon as I can
find time to look for an alternative who will collect, then that will
go as well.

Some local taxi firms will do parcel runs.

Owain

That's an option, although I only need an overnight service with
signature on delivery